Response to Ben Shapiro’s ‘Rap is Crap’
by Tim SlagleI just finished reading Ben Shapiro’s Rap Is Crap and I can’t let it go.
I am not a huge fan of rap music. It is not the top rack choice on my iPod, and yet, I can appreciate its contribution to music and pop culture. Very few of the top 40 songs today don’t have at least a small rap section in bridge of the song. It has now been over thirty years since rap made the leap from the inner city streets to the top of the pop charts, so it’s not going away anytime soon.
All of Ben’s complaints were once said about rock and roll: lack of melody and harmony, overemphasis on rhythm, vulgar, overly sexual lyrics… Rock and roll was also called a corrupter of youth and predictions of it’s quick demise abounded. There were record burnings and organized protests against this Satan music, and today, footage of these protests are viewed comedically. Do we really want this stigma attached to Republicans any longer? Are we tired of being the punchline yet?
And it doesn’t matter if the stars of rap are bad influences on children. Please. What pop star has EVER been a good influence on children? Most of them are drug addicts with dysfunctional relationships, regardless of what kinds of music they play. I know there have been a few decent people, but they are the rare exceptions. Pop stars are paid enormous amounts of cash to be over-grown children, but that should have no bearing on their art. The criminal antics of rap musicians speak no more about the destructive nature of the music than the conduct of Boy George or George Michael reflect on eighties pop.
Yes, rap is crude, vulgar, violent, makes reference to drug use, and is demeaning to women, but so is ‘South Park,’ and very few conservatives are willing to take a stand against ‘South Park.’ Why are we so willing to accept the bad stuff in a cartoon, but rail against it in rap music? (I think we are opening ourselves for accusations of racism if we don’t accept both.)
You might not like rap music. I don’t blame you. I had to force myself to listen to it before I was able to appreciate it. But it wasn’t meant for old men like me–it is written for younger generations.
Every generation in modern history has been able to find a type of music that makes the older people cringe. In part, that is why they like it so much. Someone once said the best way to keep your kids from listening to rap is to start listening to it yourself. Drive around your hood with the windows down and Fifty Cent thumping out of the mini van and your kids will soon avoid it like the plague.
Eventually that’s what happens to every form of pop music: it mainstreams, and the next generation is forced to find something new and toxic. The Beatles started as radicals but eventually were covered by Lawrence Welk. Just the other day I was on an elevator in Downtown Chicago and it started playing an instrumental version of “Smells like Teen Spirit” over the loudspeaker. I thought it was cool, but listening to it like that for the first time, I felt really old. And I could tell the thirty-five-year-old girl next to me with the faded tattoos underneath her business suit did too. I actually think she started to tear up a little.
Instead of becoming this generation’s up tight pantywaists, we should be looking for common ground between the rap culture and ourselves. Isn’t that kind of what Big Hollywood originally set out to do: find common ground between conservatives and pop culture? Because, I think there is a lot of common ground. After all, we both have a fascination with guns and a distrust of government.
And we both get a big kick out of making politically incorrect jokes. For the most part, rap lyrics are intended to be funny. And when you become incensed, you’re letting on that you didn’t get the joke.
Don’t do that. It makes us ALL look bad.
Email this to a friend | Print |
Share on Facebook
| Tweet this
| 
Follow Us on Twitter
Subscribe via RSS
Got a Tip?
167 Comments
Whoa MC Timo!
Where do we start ?
Which generation? My kids or my grandkids? They think it's crap, too. If that makes us a "punchline," so be it. Which part is funny? The rapes, the beatings, the murders, the cop-hatred, or maybe the lyrics about kicking the girlfriend in the stomach until she has a miscarriage because she got pregnant without his permission? To paraphrase Queen Victoria, "we are not amused."
Well said – Ben's POV is what it is, but that his piece was not only puritanical, it was … square? I get queezy when people go after "offensive/vulgar" anything, esp rap lyrics. Don't like, don't listen – it's pretty easy.
Thanks Tim, well said.
Like I said in response to Ben's post, conservatives are missing the real target when they go after rap music. That target is the culture that glorifies these guys. Rap music, like rock and roll, is just another form of expression. It draws from the culture that accepts the things rap preaches, it does not create that culture. If rap vanished tomorrow, the same culture and same problems would remain.
Don't bust a cap in the messenger’s a$$, throw down on the indefensible messages. Word, peeps.
I was young enough to remember listening rap music in late 1980s. It was crap then, it is still crap now. It doesn't do anything so much to advance music other than degrading your own mind and outlook in life. No wonder we are seeing young men dressing up like mean street thugs and being rude douchebags they are.
There is a point at which a change in form becomes a change in substance. Rap, most particularly gangsta rap, went past that point years ago. Of course rock and roll has always been rebellious. So was jazz. So was the music of the Roaring Twenties. Even I found Ben's piece a bit too puritanical for my tastes. If rap were only "offensive/vulgar" I could live with it. If you can't see the distinction, then it means I'm a punchline, and you're punch drunk.
You can't compare the "Beatles" or any 50's Rock and Roll Icon to any Rap Artist (sic) and the attitudes that were generated by their music to the abject garbage that is Gansta Rap! Your arguments are "Pathetic" and you sound like a loon! The people that railed about 50's rock and roll were people that didn't condone dancing and or holding hands in the streets. Rap is condemed by "EVERYONE!"
Your opinions just perpetuate the "do as you please" attitude that is wrecking our country. My 15 year old has told me of the corrosive effects of Rap on his friends. He listens to country. Is a straight A student, and knows that Barack Obama is ruining this country! He's his own person at 15 and lives in another state. I haven't had much if any contact or influence in his life!
It draws from the culture that accepts the things rap preaches, it does not create that culture.
It's more of a feedback loop. The music both comes from the culture and drives the culture, just like every form of music. Black urban teenagers do not listen to boring old white conservatives with straight jobs. But they do listen to young rappers dripping in bling and sluts. And you can only hear (paraphrase) "women are only holes to service me" so many times before you start to believe it's true.
===You might not like rap music. I don’t blame you. I had to force myself to listen to it before I was able to appreciate it. But it wasn’t meant for old men like me–it is written for younger generations.======
I was in H.S in the 90’s and there was plenty of rap then, even true gangster rap [bloods vs crips / east coast vs west coast] and while some of it was good [I like some NWA and Ice Cube] it was mostly trash, just as it is now.
A little hard not to listen when it's blaring out of boomboxes and car stereo systems at a decibel level that would take the paint off a building.
Tim, you said:
"Instead of becoming this generation’s up tight pantywaists, we should be looking for common ground between the rap culture and ourselves. Isn’t that kind of what Big Hollywood originally set out to do: find common ground between conservatives and pop culture? Because, I think there is a lot of common ground."
This statement should be put up as a motto or statement of purpose somewhere to remind people of the purpose of this site. We should be looking for ways to influence our culture, not to just complain about it. If all we bring to the table is, "that stuff sucks," then we might as well fold up our tent and quit. And I for one refuse to quit.
Thanks Tim, seriously.
=== Instead of becoming this generation’s up tight pantywaists, we should be looking for common ground between the rap culture and ourselves.====
Why? Should we be looking for common ground with the drug culture? These are children; you don’t lower yourself to their standards. There is plenty of music to be appreciated, rap is not one of them. What kind of common ground are you referring to? Should Conservatives or any self respecting person start calling women bitches and hoes? Well they like us better if we beat our women?
Moderation blocked a comment, second attempt……..
=== Instead of becoming this generation’s up tight pantywaists, we should be looking for common ground between the rap culture and ourselves.====
Why? Should we be looking for common ground with the drug culture? These are children; you don’t lower yourself to their standards. There is plenty of music to be appreciated, rap is not one of them. What kind of common ground are you referring to? Should Conservatives or any self respecting person start calling women bytches and hoes? Will they like us better if we beat our women?
Yeah!
Do you hate all movies too?
As I posted on Ben's piece, it seems that the true issue lies with the message and the lyrics of rap and hip hop, not the genre itself. There are some awesome Christain rap and hip hop artists that have used their musical gifts to infuse the genre with a positive message.
I think Andrew is on the right track by saying that the music reflects the culture, it does not create it. And that if rap disappeared tomorrow, the culture wouldn't disappear with it. All those problems would remain. So while I don't necessarily appreciate the attitudes and culture most rap and hip hop glorifies and celebrates, I don't dislike the rap and hip hop genre itself. Believe it or not, there ARE artists who use the medium to spread a positive, worthwhile message.
Like you, I'm looking for common ground between conservatives and pop culture. I'll even go for my generation looking for engagement with youth culture. I just can't find any common ground with the rap culture. I find it hard to begin a dialog with people who are too busy throwing f-bombs and ignoring anything I say while shouting me down with the word racist. I'll leave that to you and my kids and grandkids. It's a noble aspiration. I just don't see how it can possibly work.
Love, from an Up Tight Pantywaist.
Eminem is a great rapper but there's few like him.
When Juliard, Berkley School of Music, Boston College of Music, etc, start offering advanced degrees in "rap", I might consider it to be music. Until then, to me, it's nothing more then jungle drums.
Sign me up as one willing to take a stand against the stupidity that is South Park.
Nope. Just some.
Of course it’s a given that people can listen to whatever music that they’d like to. However, as long as we’re offering up opinions…
I think that’s it’s not necessarily rap per se, but the type of rap. How many of you remember when Will Smith was doing it? It was rap; however it just had a positive vibe out it. I remember one talking about summer time and how good it was. I liked it. I ‘spose it’d be like rock ‘n rollers giving their “rebel yell” type of rock “against the ‘machine’” as compared to rockers writing songs about killing.
We just need to push back at it, but in the persuasion dept., not the “burn all their CD’s” dept.
If today's students who attend these music schools, I bet you dollar to donut these students are listening to rap music on the side.
Today's students are tomorrow's teachers.
And I know he's completely his own person because he agrees with everything I say!
Actually, it seems my term "offensive/vulgar" is the main objection to certain strains of rap. To cite one example, Eazy-E's "Eazy-Duz-It," one of the first entries into "gangsta rap" is not only by definition "offensive/vulgar," it's also a classic album. And yes, his reckless lifestyle led to his death – AIDS at the age of 31. As a conservative and a lover of popular music – the dirty kind included – I look forward to scathing critiques of country music's penchant for socialist populism and contemporary Christian music's bland, interchangeable odes to Jesus. I have no problem with either genre, but if we're going to zero in on the offensiveness of rap music – a medium dominated by a segment of our population that votes against conservatives by a margin of nine to one – then how about we look at the relative shortcomings of artistic merit and philosophical Philistinism in genres associated with conservatism?
I'm young and I still hate rap. Not the music though–I like the rhythm of rap and the aggressive vibe. Will Smith is basically awesome and I like a lot of Eminem's lighter stuff. But the majority of rap music and the attendant culture are repulsive.
While I don't buy the "music causes violence" line, rap reflects a culture that is degrading and abusive. My issue with rap is not the musical style, it's the content. Why would I excuse lyrics like "all dem females crawl," talking about killing cops, shooting up or getting drunk off my ass? I believe that music is reflection of self, the same as the bumper stickers on your car, the books you read, and the clothes you wear. Rap may be the next rebellion, but one could say that about Death Metal. Ya listened to those lyrics?
For the record, while I appreciate South Park's non-PC-ness, I don't watch it because it's crude and disgusting. Same reason I don't listen to certain rock songs and certain artists. I don't expect them to be role models but I won't give what little money I have to people who should be in jail.
I am just not a big fan of the "the same thing was said about blah blah blah…" You know the same thing was said about Hurricanes for hundreds of years in New Orleans…and then Katrina hit. Are you seriously arguing that there is no difference between the leg shaking of Elvis Presley and the hateful, violent, misogynistic, anti-Semitic, cop-killing lyrics and explicit pornography of today? So I guess there is no bottom in your view because, well, didn't they say the same thing about something else?
Exactly, Andrew. The way to beat pop culture is to do it better than pop culture does. It reminds me of a quote Doug Wilson (I believe) said about Christian contemporary music: "Anything the world can do, we can do five years later and half as well." I'm looking for the day that Steven Spielberg, Ice Cube, Stephen King, or you name it says: "Anything those Conservatives can do, we can do five years later and half as well." THAT is when we'll have won the culture war.
I listen to a variety of music… and yes I can appreciate Eminem, and some, I said SOME, rap music. By and large, it is degrading to women and promotes a culture of drugs and violence… actually, it would be more correct to say it is defined by drugs, violence, and degrading to women. I can truly say that when I listen to country, or 70's rock, or Christian music none of them, BY AND LARGE, promote something I am at odds with.
And, btw, CBK… you are listening to the wrong stuff… try some DC Talk, Newsboys… definitely not bland.
LOL! Alright, here are some points:
1. Rap on it's own is neither good nor evil. It depends on how it gets used. If the Rolling Stones (for you old guys) or a Christian group put out a rap album, I assure you there would be no f-bombs. Also, keep in mind that the same complaints can be made about dirty movies, foul-mouthed or violent movies, and heavy metal music (plus some pop music these days).
2. Rap reflects the culture from which it is being drawn, it is not creating the culture. The underlying culture is what must be addressed. The drug use, the disrespect, the crime, etc., rap didn't create that, but it reflects it. Thus, the problem lies with the culture, not rap itself. That's what needs to be fixed.
(cont)
3. Broad general attacks on rap are counter-productive. On the one hand, such attacks make rap cooler because it gives rap the right enemies and it gives rap the "we're getting under their skin" factor. On the other hand, we take ourselves out of the debate with such attacks because they make us sound like we're just whining. Keep in mind, a large percentage of the population listens to rap. I would rather have a voice in shaping the future of rap, than just put my head in the sand and wish it away.
Now that doesn't mean you have to start liking it. All it means is that we should not condemn all of "rap music" with a broad brush, that we should take greater care in targeting our complaints, and that we should recognize the real danger to society which is finding its voice in rap music.
Interesting picture choice. I'm well aware that the parent generation quaked at the likes of the Beatles, but I can't recall a Beatles cover pointing a gun at my face. Or John, Paul, George, or Ringo bragging about how many times they've been shot during drug wars…yet we're supposed to appreciate 50 for his thug life and are criticized as lame for not doing so. Let's not forget that members of the African-American community itself, such as Bill Cosby and Will Smith, have condemned the attitudes and goings-on of gangsta "artists." It may be their way of self-expression, and it may be a reflection of the lives they've led, but at what point do you try to do the "American" thing and do better by yourself? I guess I'm just one of those close minded freaks that fails to see the "humor" in violence towards women–quite a popular theme in both pop culture and rap music, and finally found an article on this site with which to disagree, no matter how well written…
Agreed. Great quote by the way.
Here's my common ground:
I can handle the rhythms; I even enjoy them. I like a certain amount of thumping bass, and have mine turned up. But man, dial down the register on those lyrics. I need a shower after too much of those.
I think you can rap about being from the hood without needing use the same language ALL THE TIME, and advocating the gangsta lifestyle in every song you do. There is plenty of pathos there without it all needing to be gangsta bravado all the time.
[...] Original post: Response to Ben Shapiro’s ‘Rap is Crap’ [...]
The problem with the "oh people said that about X" argument is that it allows you to slip right down the slope into Hell without realizing it.
Sure, people at one time said rock n' roll was too sexy. People said jazz was too sexy. But in rap people actually stay things that are graphically sexual. At some point you cross a line of what most people would agree is pushing a boundary in an artistic sense and what is just trash.
The "oh they said that about X" argument is nonsense. You can defend anything with it. This is why every subject needs to be evaluated on its own. On its own, rap as it stands is crap. It's indefensible. Even hip-hop artists from the 80's and early 90's repeatedly say so. It is the most gutter, contemptible form of 'entertainment' currently around.
Garbage in = garbage out!
Rock songs that tackle social issues that got play: Nickelback – Never Again; Aerosmith – Janie's Got A Gun; The Offspring – Come Out And Play; The Offsping – The Kids Aren't Alright; … just to start.
If rock can do it, so can rap, and where else are you going to find serious social issues than in the hood? Reach a wider audience bring awareness.
I don't know… Normally I try to take an open minded attitude but like Tim said, it's been around for a good thirty years and I'm not seeing it evolve. Rock might have been rebellious but it wasn't the same kill 'em all, rape the women thuggery that rap has going on. When is rap going to evolve? When are we going to see the Led Zeppelin of rap emerge with something amazing that has a greater reach than what we've seen? I think rock kicks the crap out of rap all day long because it evolves and innovates– though I can't claim any bands in recent memory have approached the genius of Zeppelin, The Who, The Beatles, Hendrix– even Elvis. Once a rap "artist" finally brings something new to the table that does more than cater to our basest instincts while sampling rock music, I'll give the genre some credit. But right now it seems stuck in the same rut as always, if not devolving.
We've had the music discussion in our household numerous times. I have the fortune of being an older person who likes heavy metal and hip-hop so I feel I'm more "open-minded" to alterate music genres than most people my age. Rap music is like rock, country, etc. It is a music type. It has it's own sound. Everybody has their own preferences. Jazz and much country is as "offensive" to me as rap is to many others. I don't defend the offensive lyrics. I defend the right to listen to and enjoy the music type of my choice.
I think that's very reasonable and much more constructive than just saying, "rap sucks." So the next question is, why does the gansta culture have such attraction to its devotees and how do we end that attraction.
On a side note, I also agree that you can rap about being from the hood without the foul language and without advocating the gansta style. Take, for example, Puffy's version of Every Breath You Take (Missing You).
Not only are you right about many non-rap types of music, but I've said exactly that recently on this website. And I'm definitely not a prude, nor do I limit my criticisms of modern culture to the black community or rappers. To quote Professor Enry Iggins, "I'd rather hear a choir singing flat" than to listen to a lot of country music. And like Christian Science, with apologies to H. L. Mencken, Christian rock is neither. My comments on rap (particularly gangsta rap) were limited by the subject matter of the author's article. And whatever I think of gangsta rap, I still try to keep an open mind. I'm willing to be convinced. It's just that so far, I haven't been convinced.
Rap is a deprecated term. They call it Hip Hop now.Personally, while I like some hip -hop, I do think it deserves a lot of the criticism it gets. I am a huge music fan. A lot of hip hop isn't music. It's aim is not to be music. It's aim is to tell a message of some kind, usually lamely. A lot of the so called rap poets are hacks. It's like anything. 90% is crap. But the real problem here is they often don't even provide new music to go along with it. Usually they steal a beat stolen from something else that's stolen from something else. And nothing of worth is said to go along with it.
The stuff I like at least attempts to bring new music in as the backdrop, or has singing in it, or so clever ideas or humor. The people who can do that are the real stars in hip-hop. The rest, who sing about getting drunk at clubs and so on are boring. I don't care how well some of them sell today. They are forgotten tomorrow.
The artistry is missing from most hip-hop. It's mostly about how many ho's they can fit in the ben-z, glock glock, kill a cop, yo. Uh huh uh huh. I mean, it's so predictable.
And a lot of it seems to be getting worse. Yeah, a lot or rock music is just as stupid. At least the hair bands of the late 80s, early 90s could sing.
I think hip hop is actually fading. It's over 30 years old, so a new generation will find their own style. A lot of young kids like classic rock. When youi go to a mall you see them wearing Led Zepplin, AC/DC even Heart shirts.
Ultimately, people come back to quality. The good "rap" will be remembered, the bad will fade away.
Of course, there’s this whole thing about the music industry where there seems to be no individuality anymore. I mean, I don’t make a habit of even listening to the radio anymore because all the “sounds” of hits are basically the same. It’s as if they’re being programmed (notice I didn’t use “produced”) by 10 or so different producers who simply replace the artist as needed. You’d think that in L.A., where I live, there’d be a diverse selection of stations to listen too. But NO. I guess that’s why mp3 players are so popular. But I digress.
So rap is generally considered “uniquely black”, but it seems to me that it’s the groove that’s infectious, not the words. The words generally represent various stages of anger. You ever notice that people (of all colors) who listen to rap in their car are usually joyless? They can be seen staring straight ahead (with the windows down so we can ALL “enjoy” it). Occasionally, you’ll see someone bobbin’ their head to the groove.
Plus, it seems that it’s supported by the black community in general because it is “uniquely black”. However, I wonder if a majority of African-Americans would like these producers to be challenged by others with something more positive, yet keep the groove and the edge.
I can only speculate as to the reasons why there’s such a demand for this negativity in the black community (yes, that’s a generalization, but I think you get my meaning). But it’s pretty angry music (yes…music), but just from a “supply and demand standpoint, there’s a large market for it.
I'm not looking to defend rap, since most of it is pure garbage. However, I will admit that some of it has a compelling sound, and there has been some that has been somewhat inspired/inspiring. How about Will Smith — "Just the Two of Us"? Or Puffy – "Every Breath You Take"?
Isn't civilized debate great? And let's face it, some of the reactions on both sides of this debate haven't been exactly civil. I have a strong tendency to do what most conservatives do, erroneously, which is to commingle rap and gangsta rap. However, gangsta rap is what blares at me every time I go out on the street here. I wouldn't listen to any other kinds of rap in large part because I simply don't like the sound of it.
Nevertheless, if it were the non-gangsta rap that was blaring at me against my will, I'd probably just have the same reaction I have to ukelele music, which is to say, very little. As for gangsta rap, I still contend that it does far more than "report on the status of the urban ghetto." It glorifies it, and that is unacceptable to me. Reminding other readers: "Unacceptable to me" does not mean I wish to have it censored or banned, and I would defend anyone's right to listen to it. Please—just spare my ears.
AH, the difficulty with that is the culture it's attached to. I think you're looking at trying to unravel the hold gangs have on society. In the face of our impending narco-cartel war with Mexico, this may wind up being a central issue that has to be tackled.
The best I can come up with here is that many boys tend to join gangs to fill in for that sense of missing father figure. That goes back to the break-up of the American family and the War on Poverty that enables many young women to have babies out of wedlock.
Well the devotees haven't evolved, why would think their music has?
Tim, I appreciate your response to Ben's article and agree with much of what you wrote. A few months back when the issue of rap was brought to light at Big Hollywood during the Jay Z/Young Jeezy fiasco in Washington, I spoke about it with my son. He then proceeded to turn me on to the music of Blackalicious and the Gift of Gab.
'Make You Feel That Way'
Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMbYOkU7LyI
Lyrics.
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/blackalicious/make...
You decide.
Hi, Andrew: My reply just went into the moderation rabbit hole. Until it reappears, if it reappears, I'll just say in the words of our superiors, "I concur in part and dissent in part." Now you get to wait breathlessly for which is which. But I started out with "Isn't civilized debate great?"
Or could be he's not a sheep and had intelligent influence!
I don't think rap is crap, but I do think other than the attempts to get further and further out there with the lyrics by the alpha-male/female wanna-bes, the music itself has calcified. Remember, the time period from the Sugar Hill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" — considered the first mainstream rap hit — will be 30 years this fall. Then go back and compare Billboard's Top 40 in March of 1979 to the Billboard Top 40 songs from 29 1/2 years before that, in the fall of 1949, or even just look at the R&B songs that were coming out in '49 and compare those to 30 years later, and then 30 years after that. The changes in the first 30-year period are huge; in the last 30 years, bleh.
(To be fair, it's not just rap that's stagnated; much of rock and pop has been plowing the same fields for at least the last 15 years, and in some cases, the last 20-plus years. Which also goes a long way towards why today's music doesn't have the same impact, and the latest No. 1 song is more likely than not a piece of derivative fluff that will be forgotten five years from now.)
You don't find anything fascinating with tribal drum beats?
Rap is affirmative action for talentless people.
We're the thin white boys
Let me give you a tip
If you don't like us
then I guess you're not hip
We don't have rhythm
and we can' sing
but talking like we're retards
is doin' our thing
Don't both those songs sample from someone else's music? I don't have a particular problem with non-offensive rap and I like Will Smith. But my argument is that it doesn't innovate in the same way rock music does. Guitar driven music inspires the artist to approach the song from a musical and lyrical perspective and IMHO pushes a musician toward more creativity. All the rap I could claim to like is usually derivative of something else. The one exception I can think of, if I'm not mistaken is "Lose Yourself" by Eminem– I actually have that on my iPod and it's a great song. Too bad Eminem is just as prone as other rappers to fall back on some pretty disturbing content because I think he's very talented. If more rap songs like "Lose Yourself" popped up, I'd give the genre a lot more love.
I find it repulsive when self-proclaimed "conservatives" spout moral relativism.
They say, "It's no better or worse, it's just different."
But what they're *thinking* is: "If I don't criticize their music, maybe my surplus of karma will prevent me becoming the bystander victim of a drive-by…"
"Backwards-masking" WAS a joke; "Cop Killer" and its descendants are anything but.
Show some balls – or be the punchline of the wrong faction's joke… Sorry, but it seems to me that people like you prove Eric Holder right.
Agreed, aharris. I was a teen in the early 80's when Run DMC et al became popular. I enjoyed it then. The problem for me is the really raunchy gangsta rap. I actually don't mind the slightly cleaner versions. I do agree the best way to make your kids hate it, is play it yourself. I wore out some Eminem about 6-7 yrs ago, and my kids won't listen to any rap now, and they are 19 and 20. Thing is, I still like Eminem, minus some of those lyrics, that do bother me after a while. But, yeah, I liked most of the songs you listed above. Good stuff. I think rap will start losing it's shine, most kids where I live in the south don't listen to it. They seem bored by it.
Agreed, aharris. I was a teen in the early 80's when Run DMC et al became popular. I enjoyed it then. The problem for me is the really raunchy gangsta rap. I actually don't mind the slightly cleaner versions. I do agree the best way to make your kids hate it, is play it yourself. I wore out some Eminem about 6-7 yrs ago, and my kids won't listen to any rap now, and they are 19 and 20. Thing is, I still like Eminem, minus some of those lyrics, that do bother me after a while. But, yeah, I liked most of the songs you listed above. Good stuff. I think rap will start losing it's shine, most kids where I live in the south don't listen to it. They seem bored by it.
And that's why we are a nation of idiots, breeders and thieves!
Oh yeah, rap is great – I dare you to go take a evening stroll through some of those wonderful Detriot neighborhoods where rap is so popular. You also might want to visit a few abortion clinics and see how a "Sex and the City" lifestyle is working out for women. Why are conservatives so afraid to state something is trash? Liberals are very vocal – time to stop letting liberals define morals, culture, truth and conservatives. We might be surprised how many people agree with us, but have been intimidated into staying quiet.
Your are of one of the silent majority, kudos to you, crap is just that, crap!
"For the most part, rap lyrics are intended to be funny."
Most rap fans im aware of take this stuff seriously, so apparently they also are not getting the joke. Comparing rap and rock doesnt wash – for one thing, the proportion of rappers who are also criminals is far higher than for rockers.
Let's be blunt for a moment (the left hates that). The problem lies in 30 years of failed leftist garbage that turned people into victims. This has fed on itself year after year, getting worse and worse. It's also compounded by leftist leaders who use that victimization combined with demonization to create planations of voters — black, white or hispanic.
This caused the total break down of society in these areas. Respect for people and property and rules is gone. The concepts of self-improvement, planning for the future, building up your life have been replaced with unearned gratification and dependence on the government.
In the midsts of this, gangs and the gangsta culture offer an escape — be a man again, not just a victim, get rich, gain your independence. Those are powerful messages when there are no other competing voices.
One thing you will notice (unless you are deaf) is that the vast majority of all music – Country, Blue Grass, Rap, R&B, Rock, classic rock, heavy metal or that horrible audible abortion of music known as Poka – is crap. Its generic, its boring, its not worth listening.
But tell me honestly. Why dont we remember every artist we've listened to, why is it that out of all those acts from the 70s we only remember the few? Everyone knows Jimi Hendrix but for every Jimi, for every iconic act, there were five bands bands who were complete trash that made up the better 90% of the music and that has not changed.
"Music. Music never changes. Most of it sucks."
LOL! Civilized debate is great. Price, A., concurring.
I was watching my son play Resident Evil 5, and on Big H. there’s a debate about Rap or Hip-Hop going on, and I had an epiphany. I could argue sitting in front of a big screen TV for hours playing video games could be as corrosive to society in promoting violence as any Rap. But, a video game is total fantasy whereas Rap is a life style this is where the analogy breaks down. Rap stigmatizes and stereotypes a culture already in trouble. I think this is where parents and society must push back against a racist, misogynist, bloody, hold me down attitude that unfortunately Rap expounds. It is a vital imperative for Black youth to think that anything is possible in America, with hard work and education. If one good thing can come from a President Obama is that feeling amongst young blacks that the world is their oyster, not their destroyer. However, I’m of a mind about most things cultural, “to each his own.”
I did as a child, have fond memories of "Rama of the Jungle" & "Tarzan".
I was just citing a couple of positive rap songs, I wasn't looking for not-sampled. I'm not bothered by sampling because borrowing and improving has a long history in music. Much of the early rock and roll was borrowed. In any event, there are rap songs that are not sampled. I think LL Cool J. has done a lot of not-sampled work. Is it any good? Don't know, I guess that depends on your taste.
My understanding is that Lose Yourself was written (without sampling) by Eminem. I do like that one.
In terms of rock, I would personally disagree. To my ear, I have not heard anything creative or evolutionary come out of rock (particularly metal) since the grunge era.
Good point, at least you understand, social conservatism is simply just based on ignorance and nothing else. Ben Shapiro is 25, went to college at the age of 16 (something to be proud of indeed), attended an Ivy-League institution, and has a book called "Porn Generation: How Social Liberalism Is Corrupting Our Future," also he is 25!!!!! How out of reality this guy is, well its unmatched.
DC Talk, Newsboys….really? Is it 1995 still?
In terms of rock, I would personally disagree. To my ear, I have not heard anything creative or evolutionary come out of rock (particularly metal) since the grunge era.
Unfortunately too true. I still hold out hope that someone will come along with something great. I don't really expect the same of rap though.. I'm just not a fan of sampling. It seems lazy and uncreative. Borrowing melodies, as is done in other forms of music, isn't the same as simply slipping in someone else's song to liven up your own. I think rap should move away from sampling. If they did they might find more incentive to create something more original. Though I do make an exception for rap/rock fusions like Run DMC & Aerosmith's "Walk This Way." That is one of the best.
In terms of rock, I would personally disagree. To my ear, I have not heard anything creative or evolutionary come out of rock (particularly metal) since the grunge era.
Unfortunately too true. I still hold out hope that someone will come along with something great. I don't really expect the same of rap though.. I'm just not a fan of sampling. It seems lazy and uncreative. Borrowing melodies, as is done in other forms of music, isn't the same as simply slipping in someone else's song to liven up your own. I think rap should move away from sampling. If they did they might find more incentive to create something more original. Though I do make an exception for rap/rock fusions like Run DMC & Aerosmith's "Walk This Way." That is one of the best.
***but so is ‘South Park,’***
But nobody actually wants to BE Cartman
Thank you…Blackalicious is great. De La Soul, A Tribe Called Quest, Common, etc….there is good hip hop out there, with lyrical depth and meaning, it just isn't at the top of the radio charts (like most good music these days.)
It's 2008. Try Pillar, Switchfoot, Thousand Foot Krutch, Family Force 5, The Wedding, Children 18:3, Fireflight, Toby Mac, KJ52, Cross Movement, and the list goes on and on and on.
It's actually 2009, but thanks. And I know the CCM industry far too well. Hopefully more bands and Believers will follow Switchfoot's lead and get out of it and start actually influencing people and mainstream culture.
Which, is sort of what this whole website is about.
It's actually 2009, but thanks. And I know the CCM industry far too well. Hopefully more bands and Believers will follow Switchfoot's lead and get out of it and start actually influencing people and mainstream culture.
Which, is sort of what this whole website is about.
Yeah, 2009. Ack.
Anyone who truly has a conviction about not liking rap music or South Park would not heed your call to just loosen up and accept it. Why would someone do that? To try and make Republicans look good? That's stupid. I wouldn't join the crowd and all of the sudden change my opinion to save the group. We should all be encouraged to stand firm if we feel we stand on principal. Your article is a recipe for weakness and faintness of heart.
Count me out.
Anyone who truly has a conviction about not liking rap music or South Park would not heed your call to just loosen up and accept it. Why would someone do that? To try and make Republicans look good? That's stupid. I wouldn't join the crowd and all of the sudden change my opinion to save the group. We should all be encouraged to stand firm if we feel we stand on principal. Your article is a recipe for weakness and faintness of heart.
Count me out.
Slagle is right, of course. He's an artist, and so am I. We're both filthy with respect to language. If you don't like it, don't listen.
Maybe I'm just tired of social conservatism. It's bullshit. Ben's piece does more to alienate people like me than it does to welcome people who agree with him. Art is art. And it's always, always a piece of the artist's soul. That's what you're buying… a piece of T.I.'s soul. If you don't want a piece of it, don't buy it. And I guess it's fine to criticize it. I guess you can even call for it to be banned, but don't get pissed when Big Daddy Government decides to make you a little less free with this or that tax.
Tonight's "Family Guy" was a wonderful piece on religion and atheism that will no doubt have people here and in "parental" groups everywhere all atwitter with anger. But I'm an atheist and loved it. I'm also a conservative. But every time I write about being a smoking, foul-mouthed, (formerly) drinking, non-believer who also believes in liberty, people give me the tsk-tsk look.
If what you want is liberty, you'd better be good and goddamned ready to understand that liberty means seeing and hearing things you don't like. There's a solution. Turn them off. Otherwise, you're just complaining. You are either free or not. Not free with respect to business and taxes, but able to control parts of other people's lives. You don't like them hammering your bank account, right?
I don't care for gangsta rap but some of the other stuff is alright. It's not my first choice of music selection though. I'll stick to Rock and Roll, here's what I wonder about though.
If Elvis and his gyrating hips were a problem back in the day with societal norms, then following though to Gangsta rap and it's disregard for everything not crime related. What's next? What is going to be the next generations anti-societal genre. I think all the angst of youth have been covered and then some.
That's a good question. I HOPE that they bounce back the other way, and shock their parents by becoming more pro-societal. But that's not likely unless things change.
Right now, the problem, in my opinion, is that too many of their leaders benefit from the current situation. What we need is someone to go into these communities (and I'm not just talking black, I'm also talking hispanic and lower class white) and tell them that it's time to change.
In fact, if Obama really wants to make a difference, that is probably the one area he is ideally suited to handle. He has the "cred" to walk into these neighborhoods and tell them that all this victimology is garbage and to lay out a blueprint for them to follow. I just can't see him doing that.
Hey, you got out of moderation after all!
I'm not saying that we should not criticize gansta rap, or rap, or whatever. My point is that using broad brush criticism is not helpful. Not only does that not really move the debate forward — because it doesn't really identify the problem, but it also makes it easy for people to dismiss your concerns as being simply a dislike of rap.
But look at how you've already defined your true concern in only a couple of comments. You now say that your concern is not with rap, but with gansta rap and the way it glorifies the bad side of urban culture. That narrower complaint is much more likely to resonate with people AND it can't be dismissed easily as simply being anti-rap or out of touch. That's my point: choose the target carefully and refine the message.
By the way, how would you feel about gansta rap that uses ukeleles?
How many rock or metal tunes advocated killing someone or treating women the way rap does consistently. I am not going to say it never happened but c'mon rap does'nt exist without its disregard for life or women. Rappers are not the anti-establishment soldiers they pretend to be, rockers were. Rappers are rappers for the "bling" that they get to rap about or let everyone see on the next cd cover or at an awards show. They can't stop themselves from letting everyone know what drugs they are doing, how much money they have, or what guns they own (TI). Other genres never came close to the self adulation that rap is guilty of. These ubernarcissists make Hitler look modest. Raps motive is different than any other genre, ever. Its not being "old" if you don't appreciate rap and nobody needs to accept rap just to become one of the herd and not appear "old". Think for yourself and say what rap really stands for and not because you are old but because you are human.
Which is what I said in a couple of companion posts at about the same time, including specifically fessing up to the common mistake of conflating rap and gangsta rap. That's the problem with the random moderation thing that breaks up the chain of debate. What I said in this post makes little sense taken away from the contemporaneous posts. I also just noticed that I left the second g out of gangsta rap a few times.
And ukeleles would improve gangsta rap.
Broad and incorrect generalization. If ever there was an example of how wrong you are, it's this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjheiI0BFqg
Rock/rap fusions haven't been the same (or bettered) to my ears since Anthrax and Public Enemy hooked up for "Bring the Noize," almost 20 years ago (now I feel old). Judgment Night soundtrack had some greatness, too, but, again, how long ago was that?
The guys in Stuck Mojo have made something palatable out of the cross-genres in the new millennium, though, and I suppose it doesn't hurt their lead singer/rapper sounds like old school Chuck D, still my favorite rap voice ever. That Stuck Mojo's incredibly patriotic just the proverbial icing.
""Backwards-masking" WAS a joke; "Cop Killer" and its descendants are anything but. "
"Cop Killer" is not, nor was ever a rap/hip-hop song. It's a ROCK/METAL song from a ROCK/METAL band called "BODY COUNT." Just because Ice-T was their lead singer, doesn't make it rap. People need to stop citing that song when they speak about rap. Do some research.
But yes rap blows and Eminem is one of the worst.
Just The Two Of Us? Are you serious? Its funny how you couldnt even come up with an original tune to dispute me. The song you cite is a remake of a tune that wasnt originally rap. Thanks for supporting my argument.
There once was a time when rap had promise, to become what Chuck D called the "CNN of black music." Think those days are sadly gone forever, though, as Chuck D long-ago abandoned his "voice of a generation" model — someone who emphasized to his fans to educate themselves, so they wouldn't devolve into rapping about nothing except "[not so nice ladies] and [ladies of the red light district]" — and morphed into a one-note Bush-basher, educating himself in little more than the latest Democrat talking points. On the plantation, what else would that brutha do?
>>But nobody actually wants to BE Cartman.>>
I do, but just the ridding the world of hippies thing.
You may have hit upon a new and previously unimagined form of gansta rap! Ukelele gansta rap.
Excellent point about "Cop Killer," but I always preferred Body Count's "Evil D–k" and T's "The Girl Tried to Kill Me" anyway. That and his lounge lizard-style version of "Colors." Can't say the brutha doesn't have a good sense of humor, in spite of the inflammatory and vulgar Body Count material.
I agree that the message is responsible for itself. The music genre is just that, a form of music.
Where I live I get a dose of Rap and R&B on a daily basis. At times the bass even wakes me from a sound sleep as some thoughtless person puts gasoline in their vehicle. While I don't blame the music for being played so loud I understand that the message behind the music often encourages such inconsiderate and disrespectful behavior. I don't dislike the music but I do very much dislike those who insist I listen to it with them.
Their attitude angers me, and many others no doubt, and often times the music will fall victim to that anger when it's the people who are to blame.
Er, I'm a Berklee alumnus and member of the Alumni Association (Nominally: I'm not really active in it). First, there are no advanced degrees from Berklee, the highest being BM (BCoM does award Honorary Doctorates, however). Second, if you go there today, you'll find plenty of hip-hop inspired musical elements in student work, and I'm pretty sure there are some cultural analysis and other courses that address hip-hop culture as well (It would be pretty hard to teach a contemporary lyric writing course without at least touching on rap, for example).
The general argument here, in reductio ad absurdum, would be, "something good comes out of everything." Well, duh. Atonal 20th century music alienated the audience for classical music – oh, and getting it back will take decades – but yeah, we have some cool film scores like 2001 that use Arvo Paart &c. On balance, though, it was a net negative if viewed objectively: Losing the audience, funding, and all of the techniques developed by traditional composers isn't worth a few cool film scores, like There Will be Blood.
So, that's a dodge, as the worst of rap/hip-hop is far more odious than anything that came before (Though there is some seriously f-u'd death metal out there). Like I say all the time, I'm a small-l libertarian, so the last thing you'll ever hear from me is a call for censorship. However, "building a bridge" between libertarian-conservatives and a culture that glorifies gang bangers and pimps – seriously, no matter how much you wish it was a joke – while denigrating women to the point that the most desirable ones portrayed are "hos" is simply not possible. Not rationally possible, anyway.
The very thing that separates us libertarian-conservatives from the nihilistic left is that we LIKE Western culture and are PROUD of its/our achievements: We want to extend Western culture and develop it further. At least, I do.
Building bridges to the seamy underbelly of our culture – something that will be with us always, because we are a culture of human beings – IS NOT THE ANSWER! The answer is to present an alternative of excellence, and then those who successfully navigate the mine field of popular culture will have some place desirable to end up.
Has anyone said anything about banning rap? I don't think even Shapiro talked about banning it. We are wondering if it is a symptom or if it is the disease. I think actually, if you pay attention to the commentary, that quite a few of us see it as a symptom of a segment of society that has some real issues. But if you think ghetto or urban culture is just peachy-keen fine and has no trouble whatsoever, then well, I guess your on the minority here …
Reading these posts while listening to "Glenn Miller With Benny Goodman – String of Pearls"
Rap is trash in every sense of the word
"When youi go to a mall you see them wearing Led Zepplin, AC/DC even Heart shirts."
Yeah, but watch the SHOCKED looks you'll get when you inform them that those were ACTUAL bands and not just characters from "Guitar Hero"
"When youi go to a mall you see them wearing Led Zepplin, AC/DC even Heart shirts."
Yeah, but watch the SHOCKED looks you'll get when you inform them that those were ACTUAL bands and not just characters from "Guitar Hero"
Genius! I'll put together a whole crew and form a label. Maybe "Plucking Death Row Records," or "Island Bad Boy Records." I could pay for it out of my wheelbarrow and bread profits. Whaddya think?
You must be logged in to post a comment.