Gervais Undercuts His Atheist Argument in ‘Lying’
by S.T. KarnickSo what we have here are two worlds. One, without God and controlled by thoughts of evolution, is a spectacularly dreary, unhappy place without love or meaning. On the other hand, even a fictional God brings the world meaning, joy, liberty, and wonder.
The Invention of Lying tells a fantasy story about a world in which people do not know how to lie. The conceit is that lying is the product of a gene no human had before it suddenly popped up in Gervais’s character, forty-something failure Mark Bellison. But instead of simply being a cute comedy based on a silly concept, The Invention of Lying is an ambitious, largely unfunny comedy based on a silly concept. It’s not nearly as cute, innocent, or funny as Gervais’s fans might expect.

In fact, it’s really rather dreary. Yet it does have some good points. Although the early scenes in the film, in which we see Mark’s sad, unsuccessful life, are pretty depressing, there as some funny moments after he invents lying. In addition, the philosophy behind the film is sufficiently confused and inconsistent to be more interesting than one might expect.
Before Mark invents lying, no one in the society is truly happy. They speak with brutal honesty toward one another, in particular calling attention to one another’s faults and their own very base desires, and no one seems to mind the situation too much.
However, there’s something more than just truth-telling going on here, as the characters in these early scenes seem like the pod people from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. There’s no love and no generosity. People’s lives have no meaning, and they don’t look for any. They live for the purpose of advancing the human race genetically, each person trying to find the most genetically superior mate they can catch. Love does not enter into it.
As it happens, the film posits that human beings have no concept of God, and hence do not see any higher purpose in life and have no hope of a life beyond death. This seems part and parcel of the depressing nature of the society depicted in these scenes, though it is difficult to imagine that Gervais intended to make that particular point, given his public statements about the film.
Nonetheless, it is a definite truth that the godless society is unpleasant and uninspired.
After Mark starts lying, things become somewhat interesting–and human kindness begins to make an appearance. Mark’s lies stop a neighbor from committing suicide, help a homeless man get money, bring a troubled couple back together, and give hope to a depressed woman and the occupants of an old people’s home.
Mark then uses his invention to enrich himself, as one might expect. But even that does not bring him happiness, because his real desire, to have the love of beautiful Anna (Jennifer Garner), remains unfulfilled.
He sets out to become successful at his old job, writing screen documentaries, by telling fanciful stories that are much more interesting and fun than the true-life tales that had been produced thereto. The first big story he invents is a clearly mythical saga combining sci fi and other fantasy notions.
Next come the controversial scenes in which Mark invents God and an afterlife. (In the theater at which I watched the film, there were only two other people at the showing, and they walked out during this scene. Obviously they were not expecting the overt stance for atheism in the film.)

What motivates Mark to invent an afterlife is something we’ve seen nothing of to this point: love. His sympathy for his dying mother inspires him to tell her that there is hope beyond death. It’s important to note that neither Mark nor anyone else in the film shows actual evidence of loving another person until this moment, when Mark has already invented lying. The lying gene is strangely connected to the ability to love. As we will see, the key to both is imagination.
Mark is overheard while telling his mother the good news about the next life, and of course people want to hear more. Hope is in the air. So Mark explains further. There is a Good Place where good people go after death, and a Bad Place for the others. He says that doing three bad things will send people to The Bad Place instead of The Good Place. (That, of course, is nothing like what Christianity teaches, although one could see it as a misinformed atheist’s mistaken impression of the faith.)
Under a good deal of sincere but understandably confused questioning by a great crowd of people gathered on his lawn, Mark explains more about the Man in the Sky, the afterlife, and morality, in a scene reminiscent (perhaps too much so) of similar scenes in Monty Python movies.
This is all very difficult for the people to understand, as the early scenes and a park-bench conversation with Anna have established that what people lack most of all in this fictional world is imagination. They cannot see past the surfaces of things.
Soon after his invention of The Man in the Sky, however, people begin to lose their concerns about practical matters and set their thoughts on the next. (Here, too, the difference with Christianity is evident, as Christians are explicitly called to love one another and be good stewards of the blessings given to them in this world.) Their new concern for the next life is manifested in the same way as their previous concerns for this one, however, because they remain selfish and still don’t have love for one another.
Eventually, however, even that changes, as Anna comes to see that a fat little boy tormented by bullies is “so much more than fat little Brian.” She starts to imagine what is behind the boy’s dumpy, genetically unattractive surface.
This leads to a very affecting ending, as Anna finally makes a free choice to marry Mark. (The film, despite its odd concept, hews to a traditional romantic comedy structure.)
Yet there is a further irony in this. In reacting to Anna’s choice to marry a more genetically attractive man (Rob Lowe), Mark is given a couple of opportunities, including one at the dramatic climax, to lure her into marrying him regardless of her genetic preference. In particular, she asks him directly whom the Man in the Sky wants her to marry. All Mark will have to do is say yes, and she will marry him.
Mark refuses to tell her. Like God in dealing with mankind, Mark refrains from forcing or tricking Anna into loving him. She must do so of her own free will, or it has no meaning.
So what we have here are two worlds. One, without God and controlled by thoughts of evolution, is a spectacularly dreary, unhappy place without love or meaning. On the other hand, even a fictional God brings the world meaning, joy, liberty, and wonder.
Thus although Ricky Gervais has publicly said that his film takes an atheist position, it appears that even he cannot imagine a happy, emotionally fulfilling world that does not acknowledge a good many fundamentally religious thoughts, and in particular Christian ones.






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This seems to be one of those times when what is produced for one pupose actually turns out to be better for an opposite purpose. Unintended consequenes can be a real B!tch.
A European "Athiest"…say it ain't so…
Definitely one of the most insightful reviews I've read about any movie. Very interesting and it gives me more questions for my athiest friends. (As a side note: my iPhone tried to correct the spelling of athiest with athirst. Maybe Apple gets it. Lol)
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Beautiful, Mr. Karnick! Insightful and inspiring. Thanks for writing this and sharing it.
Halloween must be coming soon — why else all these straw men? So basically, Christianity makes for a better world because it makes Christians feel better and happier. Funny we don't see heroin as a benefactor too.
Of course this doesn't get started as a real argument because it's about fictional atheists — dreary, unhappy, ignorant and purposeless atheists, completely unlike the real ones who live and love and create that spoil this little bit of self-congratulatory bigotry.
You know, quantum mechanics makes for a dreary purposeless and indeterminate world too – just like Darwinism, but it's factual as well as glorious. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer reality to your phony gods.
It was a metaphor.
As a retired pastor and lifelong student of religious psychology, I have found one thing to be true in all cases. When atheists are criticizing beliefs about God, they never posit the actual God that the mature Christian believes in. They always posit an imaginary God more suitable for an immature and troubled ten year old, and gleefully commence its destruction. They are always shocked when I join in. I won't worry about atheism as damaging to the Christian faith until they have the insight to describe the actual God we believe in and develop a good argument against Him. I won't be holding my breath until this happens.
With truth and clarity like this, you might have to change your name to Capt. No-Fog Fogg.
Great thoughts, well expressed! I like it.
What could we expect from a retired pastor but stunningly fair objectivity?
Why can't we atheists go by Holy Writ to discover "the actual God that the mature Christian believes in"? Is the Bible wrong in some way? Or are Christians of today apostates, believing in some of God's Holy Word, while ignoring other parts entirely?
If someone wants to know how badly God allows us to beat a slave, that information is in God's Holy Book. Do you disagree with the Book? Are you a namby-pamby Christian who can't stomach the thought of one human being owning another? How about Abraham making ready to slice and dice his son, for the glory of God? Would you do that for your God? No? Why not?
I couid respect you Christians more if you would go by God's revealed wisdom. (It would also send quite a few of you to jail or the mental ward.)
What could we expect from a retired pastor but stunningly fair objectivity?
Why can't we atheists go by Holy Writ to discover "the actual God that the mature Christian believes in"? Is the Bible wrong in some way? Or are Christians of today apostates, believing in some of God's Holy Word, while ignoring other parts entirely?
If someone wants to know how badly God allows us to beat a slave, that information is in God's Holy Book. Do you disagree with the Book? Are you a namby-pamby Christian who can't stomach the thought of one human being owning another? How about Abraham making ready to slice and dice his son, for the glory of God? Would you do that to your child, for your God? No? Why not?
I couid respect you Christians more if you would go by God's revealed wisdom. (It would also send quite a few of you to jail or the mental ward.)
What could we expect from a retired pastor but stunningly fair objectivity?
Why can't we atheists go by Holy Writ to discover "the actual God that the mature Christian believes in"? Is the Bible wrong in some way? Or are Christians of today apostates, believing in some of God's Holy Word, while ignoring other parts entirely?
If someone wants to know how badly God allows us to beat a slave, that information is in God's Holy Book. Do you disagree with the Book? Are you a namby-pamby Christian who can't stomach the thought of one human being owning another? How about Abraham making ready to slice and dice his son, for the glory of God? Would you do that to your child, for your God? No? Why not?
I could respect you Christians more if you would go by God's revealed wisdom. (It would also send quite a few of you to jail or the mental ward.)
What could we expect from a retired pastor but stunningly fair objectivity?
Why can't we atheists go by Holy Writ to discover "the actual God that the mature Christian believes in"? Is the Bible wrong in some way? Or are today's Christians merely apostates, believing in some of God's Holy Word, while ignoring other parts entirely?
If someone wants to know how badly God allows us to beat a slave, that information is in God's Holy Book. Do you disagree with the Book? Are you a namby-pamby Christian who can't stomach the thought of one human being owning another? How about Abraham making ready to slice and dice his son, for the glory of God? Would you do that to your child, for your God? No? Why not?
I could respect you Christians more if you would go by God's revealed wisdom. (It would also send quite a few of you to jail or the mental ward.)
If you DO get the FLU shot and something DOES happen, YOU CANT SUE
http://myfreepress.net/2009/us-government-gives-b...
I do not understand my fellow Atheist, who try and prove there is no God, and feel they must preach their position to people of faith, especially Christians. What difference does it make to you?
I do not understand my fellow Atheist, who try and prove there is no God, and feel they must preach their position to people of faith, especially Christians. What difference does it make to you? I would be much more at ease revealing that I was an Atheist to a Christian, than I would be revealing the same to an Atheist.
You have no idea how well you proved his point. It's a pre-adolescent's God you're trying to take down. Give it some more thought.
Thank you, HumanPersonJr, for illustrating so completely that although you might "know the Bible inside and out, and would never characterize its teachings this way" as you state in an earlier comment, you have completely failed to grasp the character of God… a God that loves you despite the fact that you mischaracterize Him and His children, and who will likely wait your entire life hoping you begin to see Him for who He is.
Could someone explain this points system to me? Jason is always posting off-topic spam-crap, yet he has 58p?
I'm a bit of an agnostic, but Christians or Christianity don't bother me.
That being said though, these posters really need to stop dog-piling the atheists in our midst who otherwise agree with us. The way I see it, we need all the help we can get, and we don't need to drive them toward the Huffington Post or Daily Kos with constant snark.
They use Intensedebate for the commenting system, and so do I The more you comment across all blogs that use it,increases your points. http://www.intensedebate.com/
Though I haven't seen this movie, and I'm not going to see it, I assume the atheists in this world have not murdered 75 million people. Reminds me of my reaction to that abomination of a few years ago, "They Live." Keep the alien invaders, leave me my color.
Atheists have been lying about evolution ever since darwin. So why not make a crap movie to bash christians about the facts of God and his word? They can't win on science, try a hack job movie then. The bible calls atheists fools, with good reason. You are a fool if you deny that there is a God. Obviously the Jesus part comes with the bible and christian soul winning. But the fact of a God is obvious to even a retarded blind man. You must be purposely, and wilfully dense, to deny God. Atheism is just a self centered way of living, making yourself a little god, with your little religion of humanistic evolution. God must get a kick out of making a brain, giving it to an atheist, and then them using it to find ways to deny him. Richard Dawkins came out with a new book recently, it is called " I am Delusional" his autobioghraphy. A must read!
There's no such thing as an "athesist argument" about God. Just as there's no such thing as a Judeo Christian argument. Prior to the advent of logical positivism and the postmodern philosophers, unbelieving scientists were uniformly agnostic because you can't prove a negative. You don't accept or reject a basic postulate of existence because someone types a couple of logical syllogisms.
No, the way that the validity of any religion is accepted or rejected is by surrounding the casual believers with it. First in their family, then in the society at large. Making a given religion's precepts, (and I include atheism as a religion here), the basis of your entertainment, news, science and philosophical education and daily conversation is how Joe Schmo decides what is "right". For some folks, their family upbringing and clarity of faith can counter a daily bombardment of living in a culture based on another religion. For many, they change their minds based on being submerged in the culture. In the middle east, the culture is violently Islamic. Here the culture has become increasingly and agressively atheist or agnostic.
"The Invention of Lying" is just another billboard held up to validate the Hollywood belief system. The same one that thinks the Polish director didn't do anything wrong and to whom lying is a way of life.
It's probably never a good idea to take a work of fiction and think that it proves anything, one way or another. And thinking of all atheists as completely similar is just as offensive (and wrong) as thinking of all believers as completely similar. Are all atheists loveless and unhappy, and all believers joyous and loving? Good luck proving it. I could easily find examples of happy, loving atheists (for example, my wife and I) and miserable, hateful believers (for example, the 9/11 terrorists, all of whom were very devout believers).
Perhaps the examples I point out are exceptions, but isn't everyone? And that, I think, is the key to the conundrum. Thinking that ALL atheists are evil, or thinking that ALL believers are deluded, is simply adolescent-type, stereotypical, tribal, prejudicial thinking. We can do better than that, and if M. Gervais can't, well, that's his problem.
Both the bible and koran are NOTHING more than egregiously self serving man made dogma. BOTH were literally compiled by self appointed clerics hell bent (deliberate sardonic irony) on pushing their very narrow theological/eschatological world views. The blble's new testament and its "running order" was actually VOTED on – hundreds of years after supposed events occurred in Roman controlled Israel – to facilitate what sadly became catholic hegemony over dissenting christian type cults/sects. The bible has NO credibility whatever as an accurate historical record, yet it was imposed, in the appropriately named DARK AGES, by a corrupt, extremely superstitious cruel and unforgiving church which for centuries sold pardons and went on to keep millions of slaves, burned alive/tortured those who either rejected it's interpreted teachings or were falsely accused of rejecting such teachings, for political or sectarian etc reasons. The genocidal history of the church is truly appalling.
The koran's "historicity" and claims are even more ridiculous, which is why mohammedans even today oppress/and even "legally" seek to kill those who question the dogma or "makes war" on their prophet and allah – allah merely being a cynical reworking of a decidedly pagan Arabian peninsula god.
Believe whatever you want – that's real freedom, but NEVER FORGET this country was largely founded by puritanical era religious nutters who escaped from other religious nutters who were oppressing them in what has now regrettably become the elite liberal run EUSSR.
I say this as a solidly centre-right conservative agnostic. NOT as a far left liberal atheist.
I'll never go to the dark side. My fellow atheists make me literally SICK with their leftist attitudes. They're oh-so-very skeptical until they start thinking politics. Then they swallow the official BS, hook, line and sinker.
Nothing can EVER drive me from my strong ultra-Conservative political ideals. In my view, Conservatism is as natural as breathing, and it fully takes into account all the glory and the shame we humans bring upon ourselves. No other system does this, certainly not the religions of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, statism, communism, fascism or Nazism. LONG LIVE CONSERVATISM, for it is our last and best hope.
I'll never go to the dark side. My fellow atheists make me literally SICK with their leftist attitudes. They're oh-so-very skeptical until they start thinking politics. Then they swallow the official Obama-and-crowd BS, hook, line and sinker.
Nothing can EVER drive me from my strong ultra-Conservative political ideals. In my view, Conservatism is as natural as breathing, and it fully takes into account all the glory and the shame we humans bring upon ourselves. No other system does this, certainly not the religions of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, statism, communism, fascism or Nazism. LONG LIVE CONSERVATISM, for it is our last and best hope.
God Bless you and keep you safe.
Those murders were committed in the name of a so-called progressive political ideology, of which atheism was a part. They were not committed in the name of atheism. Atheists in general deplore all murders, religious or otherwise. Hitler was a religious person, and the Catholic Church aided and abetted him. The Soviet Communists accommodated the Russian Orthodox Church, and vice versa.
Statism is too much like a religion to really call it a political ideology. It, like religion, is based on wishful thinking and an unholy desire to change the very nature of humans.
It's what we call the New Atheism, which I admit is far more aggressive than the previous "brands."
In a world gone goofy with religious thoughts, I guess it makes sense to call "lack of belief" a "belief" or a "religion." The fact that science can't yet answer every single part of every single question is unfortunate. However, Praise JESUS that science, unlike religion, is willing to change, once it's proven wrong. It happens all the time, and no one has to lose his life for challenging the orthodoxy.
Thank you, bob. I reciprocate, to the degree that I can. I truly hope for the safety and well-being of you and those you love (no sarcasm intended).
It's disconcerting. Even though you CAN do it, I don't see WHY do it.
Hear, hear!
Well said!
Good thinking and good writing — Thanks for both.
By the way, I will continue to ENTHUSIASTICALLY support Conservative candidates of the Christian or other faiths. I can do this with a clear conscience. Although I'm convinced that religious beliefs (particularly the eshcatological sort) make for dangerous politics, so-called "progressive" political views are even more dangerous.
Again, my atheism is not intended as disrespect for individuals of faith. I'll be a conservative atheist until I breathe my last. I can do or be no other, and remain true to my convictions.
By the way, I will continue to ENTHUSIASTICALLY support Conservative candidates of the Christian or other faiths. I can do this with a clear conscience. Although I'm convinced that religious beliefs (particularly the eschatological sort) make for dangerous politics, so-called "progressive" political views are even more dangerous.
Again, my atheism is not intended as disrespect for individuals of faith. I'll be a conservative atheist until I breathe my last. I can do or be no other, and remain true to my convictions.
Good god you are an an-al little person.
Studies show that religious people tend to be happier than atheists. Quantum mechanics is yet to be proven. In fact, they are not even close to proving it. In fact, some of the posited proofs have been downright stupid, in regards to the various guesses about quantum mechanics. And most Darwinists that I have heard speak tend to be the most illogical small minded people I have ever heard.
I am rubber; you are glue…
Furthermore, a historical fact for you: When Bertha Butt did her goodie, she started the Bertha Butt Boogie. Look it up!
Hey, Capt'n: Halloween is a Christian holiday, as is the very date. You do realize why we call this the "21st Century" don't you? Your obliviousness to the moral world you live presents you with a dilemma.
Would you actually want to live in a world (or even a neighborhood) purely run by the survival of the fittest, the strong killing the weak without consequence? Or would you rather have a next door neighbor whose lives by the Golden Rule of doing unto others as he would like done to him? Do you want your neighbor to adhere to "Thou shalt not kill" or "Kill before being killed."
Be careful how you answer because there are many places in our world (indeed, in our nation) you could move to where Darwinism is acted out in its purest form.
If you find no good in the Bible then you have either never read it or you use some pretty bizarre filters in how you understand it. Many laws that most normal people consider good laws are based on the same sense of right and wrong found in the Bible. No doubt there are some ideas that are not consistent in the bible. Many of these can be explained by poor reading ability and others based on missing the bigger picture. A big picture issue for example is how bad is it to die for an individual. If the real big picture is that there is life after death, then death suddenly does not have the sting that others might assume if they think that this life is it. I don't find hardly anyone that thinks that the bible was ever intended to be an accurate historical record. As the bible says, you strain at gnats and swallow camels.
That's definitely not what Christianity teaches? Look, saying Good people go to Heaven and Bad ones go to hell might be an oversimplification, but if you want to explain where people go in a Nut shell that really is it. Please don't tell me you believe in Predestination, beacuse that is almost as dreary a concept as Atheism itself.
Nothing you say ever seems to be objective or fair. So you get the hypocrisy award once again. As a human being you seem hardheaded, intolerant and rather dopey and simple-minded. If you are representative of Atheists in general, which unfortunately most of you are just as simple-minded, then no thanks. Your atheistic religion just ranks pretty darn low on the scale of being good for anyone.
Obviously you are welcomed to your opinion. But your opinion seems to be based on some pretty big misunderstandings of what a Christian actually believes. As you continue to display a gross ignorance of Christian belief, you will continue to be seen as a very misinformed intolerant little twit.
I havent seen it, probably wont bother, it sounds utterly sucky, but I thought it worth mentioning that Gervais and this film were being diced apart on one of the big UK blogs. For the most part, they hated it, and find him terribly overrated. Pretty amusing.
Conundrum? You dont believe in God, that's not negotiable or reconcilable. This isnt about rather your a Satanist, a Goose Stepping Nazi or *Gasp* a ordinary American in a Happy Marriage, this is about an Idealogical gulf which is dangerous to the entire Human Race.
No amount of Tolerance or acceptance can make reconcile this conundrum, beacuse in this situation one of us is right, and the other is completely, hideously wrong.
This ideological gulf is dangerous to the entire Human Race? How?
I promise not to try to un-convert any religious folks by force. If you do the same, we should be just fine.
If you're referring to the schools, and how so many people want to inject religion there, believe me, that constitutes no danger to religion. Religion should be taught as its own subject or in the home, not as an alternative to scientific theory.
It's not bad for an individual to die, particularly if they're dying for their religion.
Mohammed Atta comes to mind. This is where the delusions get truly dangerous.
A sane person says, "I can't do that. I could be arrested, or even killed by the police." A deluded idiot says, "I don't care if I die. All my death means to me is an early start to a cozy afterlife."
Here is an example of the problem with you, HumanPersonJr. You assume the worst about situations then respond to your own dreamed up and abnormal interpretation of events or beliefs.
Here is an example of a scriptural situation that a person like you would tend to misread, misinterpret then go off half cocked, as though you are some brilliant humanitarian, better than all the rest.
In the New Testament there is a scripture that states that you are to hate your father, mother, wife, kids, and to love God. Now a normal human being, even with a basic understanding would say to themselves, I know that we are not supposed to hate all these people, since the bulk of the law and the stories all relate to loving these same people. So then, what is a more logical understanding to these words. A wise person will quickly come to the correct understanding, that being that we should have proper priorities in God and then all these other things would be added. That means that if you love God's word first, which is to love your family and neighbors as yourself, then you can display a proper and healthful love towards your family. Now a fool would conclude that the bible is just evil because it said right here in chapter and verse that I was being admonished to hate my brother. Alas, you read the words but missed the meaning altogether. That is the typical problem with atheists. They get caught up in semantics and their sad pathetic misinterpretation and then skip the meatier weightier matters of the law and the gospel. These sort of people remain pigheaded and thoughtless when discussing religion because they have shut their brains off from a normal adult thought process.
Did I fail to mention…?
I am rubber; you are glue.
Your blanket condemnations of the Bible fail to take into account numerous factors. The Bible is not one text composed in the Dark Ages, but by many witnesses (not "self-appointed clerics") separated by miles and centuries, all testifying to their encounters with the same God, which, given their internal consistency of description, is in itself a remarkable thing.
Objective truth, by its very nature, is a "very narrow world view", one might as well say that claiming 2+2=4 is a "very narrow world view" and insisting that it's true is "pushing" that view on others. Using such terminology as pejorative is only an attempt to besmirch something you plainly dislike. You seem to have little compunction against "pushing" your "very narrow theological/eschatological world views" here, which by your choice in terminology suggests a world view in which religion is evil, or at best, composed of "nutters".
You have completely mischaracterized the events of the Council of Nicea (which was primarily about dealing with the Arian heresy, and had the result of officially confirming what the various branches of the Church *already accepted* as the books of the Bible) to a degree that would make Dan Brown beam with pride. While the Church's corruptions – such as the selling of indulgences and the overseeing of tortures which were carried out by *the secular government* – are truly regrettable and completely counter to the commands of Jesus, they were neither unique to human behavior (as proven by the deeds of states and organizations historically opposed to Christianity) nor solely religious in motivation, nor uncorrected in time. You may recall the Reformation (and the Counter-Reformation that it inspired) and other moves those in the Catholic Church have taken to correct or apologize for those ills.
You might also mention that the Church was responsible for the preservation of learning and knowledge during the "Dark Ages", that they have historically been one of the *only* organizations who have tended to the poor and the outcast, and that even today they are a voice for peace, cooperation and reconciliation.
For someone who seems to value historicity, you do the integrity of history no service with your wild caricatures of it.
If I ever start a church, it will be BIBLE-BASED IN ITS ENTIRETY. You won't like it.
Actually, I have no problem with religious instruction in schools. Both my atheist wife and I are the products of a Catholic education — look where prayer in schools led us! I really don't see the harm in school kids studying the Bible, which is the source of most of our western literature. Knowledge is always a good thing — for example, I read Dreams From My Father and determined that I would never vote for Obama, while most of the people I know who did vote for him never read his book. Perhaps if they had they would know better.
As for religion being taught as an alternative to scientific theory, well, who goes to a priest when they're sick? A fool may say in his heart there is no god, but a real fool goes to a priest for a blood test. People can choose to believe whatever they want to, but facts are stubborn things that don't lend themselves to belief. The earth will revolve around the sun regardless of what the people on it believe.
All I originally meant to say was that people come in all flavors, which simply proves evolution's diversity. And if people decide to be believers, well, that's evolution for you. You never know where it will lead. In the case of Big Hollywood, it has led to lots of interesting, diverse folks sharing ideas on a wonderful scientific invention called the internet. Deo gratias, indeed.
Someone's been taking Dan Brown a bit too seriously….
Point taken, from your point of view. However, making the statement "The big three Holy texts are totally false," to a believer results in the denial of God, which was my original thought. And from my point of view is not necessary for us to achieve Conservative goals. You have given me some thing to examine. Thank you.
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The bottom line is that if there were truly NO God then there would be no Atheist. The fact that God reveals himself in each of us and then he gives us free will, we can decide what we want to believe. Everything has consequences, while we live in this world of nature, he has given us total domain over our world and lives. We can act and think anyway we damn well please that is the essence of free will. However, once we pass over the river styx or into the light, then the rules change and then our asses belong to him. Now, if there is no God, there is no judgement, if there is a GOD and people in their arrogance and pride will be judge accordingly. I am quite sure God doesn't operate on the premise of 'love is never having to say your sorry' . Then again, each of us must deal with what is beyond death in our own way. God help us all….
Mao was an atheist, Che was an atheist, Stalin was an atheist, Pol Pot was an atheist. Based on a socialist leftist political ideology they each created or assisted in creating the most murderous, tyrannical and oppressive societies of the twentieth century. Yet in the same century Great Britain, France, Sweden, Finland, and Norway following a similar leftist socialist ideology created a much freer, less oppressive, and more open societies. The difference is the European socialists were christian and the communists were atheists.
The Bible is not a work of fiction. Those writing did not believe they were making up a story, but thought they were writing what God was inspiring/telling them to write. Fiction is not intended to be taken as true. Rowling did not intend Harry Potter to be believed by people as a real person. Besides, the Bible has many different styles and forms written in 3 ancient languages over the span of many, many years.
You may believe that the people who wrote the Bible were intentionally lying about it all, thereby making it fiction in the sense that it is not true or "make-believe". However, to label it as mere "fiction" is just plain ignorant.
Concerning the movie. The way I see it, there are two kinds of Atheists: Honest Atheists and Militant Atheists. Honest atheists just don't believe in God or gods and leave it at that. They realize that there is no point in desecrating or tearing down religion because it gives comfort, meaning and solace to billions of people.
Militant atheists are not really atheists, at all. Because, though they claim to not believe in God, they actually do. And they hate Him. They hate Him and anything that reminds them of Him(namely religion, Most often Christianity because we're the most successful one and we won't chop your head off for disagreeing with us). In their impotent rage at, what they see as a cruel God, they take it out on us by trying to discredit any and everything that has to do with religion.
An honest atheist does not bother me at all, but I do not tolerate the mockery, spite, and foolishness of militant atheists. Since I believe this Gervais is of the later, I will not give him any of my money by watching his movie.
The best part of it all is that no matter what you do or have done, God will welcome you back, if ever you do. God bless.
Every year, there are kids who die because their parents have a religious objection to science. Sometimes, it's a chiropractor (shaman/priest) who kills the child. Other times, it's getting no treatment at all, not even the useless new-age, chiropractic or other "therapy."
So, yes, some people DO go to a priest when they're sick.
I love Christians. I just don't love Christianity, Islam or any other religion of which I'm aware.
You're talking complete bollux mate, and you completely distorted what I actually said. I said the bible was IMPOSED in the DARK AGES – not written. You bible thumpers only ever see what you want to see!!
How the hell can you call the Arian dogma a "heresy" (with a straight face) – its all completely unproven and unprovable crap. Nicea was about imposing a narrow, given dogma. NO ONE can say what the true "christology" was – I happen to believe it is an entirely made up religion, based entirely on earlier, what were very arrogantly deemed "pagan" rite/practice/beliefs etc. Risen saviour gods were nothing new, nor were virgin births.And so on. Isis and Horus literally became the madonna (not Paul McCartneys of course) and child. Many demons were simply old biblical gods, and the Roman and Greek pantheons effectively became catholic saints (albeit with a few tweaks) The point, which you clearly very deliberately MISSED is that not one word of the new testament was written by contemporary eyewitnesses, it was all second, third or worse – hand. It was then filtered through various translations and transcriptions. So NO ONE – intellectually honest – can say one word of it has any credibility, validity or accuracy. It says exactly what self appointed clerics EVENTUALLY decided it would say. Reinforcing the selective catholic dogma of the day. As for all that bollux about the inquisition and slavery and the rest – you are a classic papist apologist mate.
The church is still virulently sexist, always has been. They had a formal, very self serving agreement with the fascist Mussolini. Watch The MIssion. Centuries of evil child abuse all around the world- which was disgustingly covered up at the highest level. One could on for hours and hours about your precious church mate!! For me, at best, its an implicitly evil organisation.
@! Human Person jr — cheers for the wind words mate.
Thank you for replying. If I were a praying man, I would be on my knees right now, in deep prayer and fasting about this political mess under which our great nation labors.
I am so afraid for the country, for my kids, grandkids and unborn great-grandkids.
Thanks for replying.
I looked up the definition of "fiction," and it seems to comport with my intent in using it. Someone, at some point, must've intended to tell untruths. Maybe you're right. Maybe most of the eventual writers of the Bible did their best to give an accurate account. Regardless, some writers actually DID lie, demonstrably. One writer has Moses describing his own funeral, as if he were there and alive.
I'm not angry with the non-existent God. I don't hate that imaginary entity, nor imagine it to be cruel. I am very angry at the 400-year-span when science was derailed. I'm getting older, and I hate to think what my lifespan might be, had not lame-headed Popes and other clerics had their way in the world.
On another personal note, maybe I wouldn't have acted so badly in my youth, had I realized life was a once-per-person event, instead of thinking I would "gather at the river" after my death, and see and talk to all my loved ones who'd died before me.
The atheists in Britain will have a difficult time in the coming years, when Muslims extremism grows in their own homeland, they'll wish they had God and His Word to turn to for answers and for His peace.
It's sad to see how the created shun the Creator.
"Again, my atheism is not intended as disrespect for individuals of faith."
I'm afraid your posts have suggested otherwise. Everytime somebody has insulted Christianity and its followers, you have commented with things like, "Execellent post" or "Well said!" Everytime you have posted, you have thrown in insults and degrading comments against Christianity. It IS disrespectful. It's one thing to say you're an atheist and that you don't believe in religion or the Bible. It's another thing entirely to tell somebody repeatedly that their beliefs are stupid and wrong.
Good point, and well taken!
I haven't, however, murdered anyone. I disbelieve in the Holy texts, but not because others who DO believe went off the rails and committed mass murder. It's not a matter, with me, of whether religion is more convenient for the world. To me, it's a matter of truth. In other words: Is the Bible true or untrue? I don't want to believe a lie.
Wow, that was powerful, Enoch! I could tell you were about furious when you were typing it. It's undeniable truth, though. And it's enough to frustrate, even anger, a thinking person.
Thank you for the shout-out.
Well, there's a word for people who go to priests when they're sick: misinformed. But they're also free, at least here in America. People make bad choices every day. Some of those people are religious, some are not. Would you really prefer to have the government or some other powerful entity supervise every parent's decisions, or should the parents be free to bring up their own children as they see fit? Freedom isn't perfect, it's just the best thing we have.
And, having stated that I'm an atheist, I also have to say that I agree with many of Judeo-Christian tenets of belief: it's a good thing not to kill, steal, or covet. It's a good thing to treat others as you'd wish to be treated. Not raising and eating pork in a desert climate is a good idea. On the other hand, I'm against stoning women for adultery. Nobody is perfect, and so it follows that their ideas aren't always perfect either. But that's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We can learn a lot from a lot of things, so why not?
There is, I agree, some disrespect inherent in disagreeing with another person. By inference, the one says to the other, "I know better. I think you're wrong." The same is true of the differences between the kooky left and the heroic right.
Given that, could you just humor me and tell me my view is the correct one?
I certainly went along with many a religious sort back in the day but never again. We used to fear that all kinds of bad things might happen if we spoke ouir minds. Not any more.
Very well, I see that made no impact. If you continue to disagree, I'm jumping out my window. I know, it's only the 1st floor, but I could injure my wrist, or something. Ok, fine. Waaaaaaaaa. Waaaaaa. There, that oughta do it.
You wrote, "The bottom line is that if there were truly NO God then there would be no Atheist."
Hmmm.
And you base your assumption that science would have developed normally in that 400 year span why, precisely? It was men who derailed it, what makes them any less likely to derail it in your hypotherical no-God reality?
No I think that someone who has to write over 40 words ridiculing someone who misspellled the word Atheist instead of just saying you misspelled atheist is pretty much being rather anal attentive and smallminded in their attitude.
You used three periods to end a sentence. Should I write a dissertation on that? …
Religion is part of your reality, just an FYI. Without religion, morality and ethics would be much different than they are now whether you are willing to admit it or not.
I don't think the God issue in this film is the real crux to analyze here. Liberal celebrity tries to shock by stating there is no God. In the 1990's it was Paganism, before that it was Satanism, etc. etc. BLAH BLAH BLAH!
I think the real story here is that liberals actually believe there is something wrong with telling the truth. As if this were an unreasonable course of action. Especially when it comes to business dealings. This I find more disturbing a point to be making.
The child who goes to the priest instead of the doctor isn't misinformed. He is UNformed, that is, not old enough to make a decision or to follow through on it, even should he make it.
The law punishes parents who rape or beat their kids. They should (and often do) punish parents who deny medical care to their kids.
So, no, I couldn't lobby for governmental powers to supervise every parental decision, but taking a diabetic kid to a chiropractor (shaman), then taking the kid off insulin at the shaman's advice, is plain criminal.
As for Judeo-Christian tenets: I'm guessing here, but I don't think humans would've survived until the advent of the presumed Moses and the alleged Jesus if they hadn't ALREADY created laws against killing, stealing and coveting. (Coveting is a thought crime, by the way.)
It only makes sense to prohibit anti-social behavior, including taking a sick kid to the priest / chiropractor / Chinese medicine man / reflexologist / name your poison.
The child who goes to the priest instead of the doctor isn't misinformed. He is UNformed, that is, not old enough to make a decision or to follow through on it, even should he make it.
The law punishes parents who rape or beat their kids. They should (and often do) punish parents who deny medical care to their kids.
So, no, I couldn't lobby for governmental powers to supervise every parental decision, but taking a diabetic kid to a chiropractor (shaman), then taking the kid off insulin at the shaman's advice, is plain criminal.
As for Judeo-Christian tenets: I'm guessing here, but I don't think humans would've survived until the advent of the presumed Moses and the alleged Jesus if they hadn't ALREADY created laws against killing, stealing and coveting. (Coveting is a thought crime, by the way.)
It only makes sense to prohibit anti-social behavior, including taking a sick kid to the priest / chiropractor / Chinese medicine man / reflexologist / name your poison.
A Hollywood liberal uses Atheism to shock his audience. Well what else is knew?
The theme in this movie that I am gleaning from the review is the idea that it is OK to lie as if telling the truth were somehow an unreasonable course of action. To me this is the dangerous message being told in this movie.
allah merely being a cynical reworking of a decidedly pagan Arabian peninsula god.
I am Catholic mind you but I beg to differ. I believe that the stories in the Koran which depict more stories of Mary and teach that Jesus was a man and not God come from the Aryan church that made its way from Spain to Egypt. I forget the group but they were empowered by the Romans to deal with their issues and then were betrayed when it appeared they would be to powerful. I beleive they were the Vandals. The TV show on the subject expalined the religious schism over this issue. There have been found apocyphilial work whowing books that were not accepted as official by the church but were popular especially in Egypt and the middle eastern regions. I would think these survived in the Koran. This moon god slam on Islam is unfounded I think.
allah merely being a cynical reworking of a decidedly pagan Arabian peninsula god.
I am Catholic mind you but I beg to differ. I believe that the stories in the Koran which depict more stories of Mary and teach that Jesus was a man and not God come from the Aryan church that made its way from Spain to Egypt. I forget the group but they were empowered by the Romans to deal with their issues and then were betrayed when it appeared they would be to powerful. I beleive they were the Vandals. The TV show on the subject explained the religious schism over this issue. There have been found apocyphilial work whowing books that were not accepted as official by the church but were popular especially in Egypt and the middle eastern regions. I would think these survived in the Koran. This moon god slam on Islam is unfounded I think.
I wrote, in a purely speculative way: "…I hate to think what my lifespan MIGHT be, had not lame-headed Popes and other clerics had their way in the world." (capitals added for emphasis)
I didn't write that I was certain of atheism's benefit to science during that time, or whether advancement in science DURING THAT TIME would've been a good thing, ultimately. Generally, lifespans have increased due to scientific advances. That was the basis of my anger, the possibility that I could have more years in this once-around life I'm living.
I wrote, in a purely speculative way: "…I hate to think what my lifespan MIGHT be, had not lame-headed Popes and other clerics had their way in the world." (emphasis added)
I didn't write that I was certain of atheism's benefit to science during that time, or whether advancement in science DURING THAT TIME would've been a good thing, ultimately. Generally, lifespans have increased due to scientific advances. That was the basis of my anger, the possibility that I could have more years in this once-around life I'm living.
Oddly, this point – that even if god wasn't real, that FAITH can inspire and make a real difference, was the INTENDED main point of a Science Fiction book recently released by Ringo and Kratman called The Tuloriad.
The fact that science is always updating and changing is good for technology but bad for the spirit. How can you trust anything you think you know?
If the science changes, that means it was lying to you, based on your previous statements. How can you believe anything that is a lie?
Madre, the word you're looking for is ATHEIST, not ATHIEST. What would athiest mean, anyhow.? I'm guessing it's a comparative adjective, as in: All of 'em are athy but that oldest boy is the athiest of them all.
Based on what I read, I think the movie is probably not worth seeing. However, I'd need a more well-written and objective review to fully accept that premise.
Reviewer writes: "There is a Good Place where good people go after death, and a Bad Place for the others. He says that doing three bad things will send people to The Bad Place…([which] is nothing like what Christianity teaches, although one could see it as a misinformed atheist’s mistaken impression of the faith.)"
By your lights, aren't all atheists misinformed? I and many of my fellow atheists know the Bible inside and out, and would never characterize its teachings this way. Don't forget, dear reviewer, this is a movie, a work of fiction, much like the Holy Bible and the Koran.
Further, you're assuming Gervais was lampooning Christianity, rather than Islam. Based on your review, it looks as if either would fit the bill. Judaism would not, for obvious reasons.
EnochPowell – what are you? A 10th grader who read Bertrand's Russell's Why I am not a Christian? Your sad rant may be the most one-dimensional thing I have ever seen on the Bible. Saying it has no credibility as accurate historical record? Sorry bubba – that smug nonsense may have flown before the advent of archeology, but not anymore. The vast majority of Biblical scholars from all sides of the spectrum acknowledge that the Bible is grounded in historical events. Even those who do not believe in the supernatural aspects of the Bible would think your ideas are embarrassing. Oh, and scholars don't use the term Dark Ages anymore – that is only for ignoramuses who don't actually study history but project their anti-religious bias into everything. Grow up and actually read something by some respectable scholars. Try JP Moreland, William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga or Normal Geisler if you have even a shred of intellectual integrity.
Every year there are kids who die because they reacy poorly to a vaccine. What's your point?
Every year there are kids who die because they react poorly to a vaccine. What's your point?
That's called an ellipse, not three periods, so, no, if I were you, I wouldn't attempt any serious writing on that topic.
Wish all you want, He will reveal himself at His discretion, not yours.
Yeah, real atheists like you Capt., who live off of Judeo-Christianity's capital (i.e., concepts of "freedom", liberty, and yes, even, science) and then deny its reality, and, even more indecently, claim credit for it. Mao's China is calling and so is Stalin's Soviet Union – from an atheist worldview, no more or less justified than the America you grew up in. Moral relativism's a bitch. But, alas, it's the best you alleged 'freethinkers' can do. Thank GOD America didn't have to depend upon atheism.
My point is, do as you wish. If your child's appendix ruptures, keep the child at home until he dies, if that is your wish. If you do that, I hope you never get out of jail.
If you don't want your child vaccinated, don't allow him to be vaccinated. If your child gets sick and dies, I hope you never get out of jail.
Some people react badly to antibiotics, and the very doctor who is attempting to save their lives is (indirectly) to blame for their deaths. Is it your position that we should dispense with vaccinations and antibiotics in favor of religious cures?
And then, some people are extraordinarily stupid. I endeavor not to join that group, so please don't invite me.
Ya think? He allegedly told the disciples he would return before the last of them died. Not a promise-keeper, seems to me.
Sounds interesting.
Sorry… Halloween is a pagan holiday and anti-Christian at best. November 1st was an RC holiday – All Saints Day – which gives us "All Hallows Eve"
Thank you, HumanPersonJr, for illustrating so completely that although you might "know the Bible inside and out, and would never characterize its teachings this way" as you state in an earlier comment, you have completely failed to grasp the character of God… a God that loves you despite the fact that you mischaracterize Him and those who follow Him, and who will likely wait your entire life hoping you begin to see Him for who He is.
You're talking complete bollux mate as well mate. Uncritical fideism is a deeply flawed and quite asinine basis for slavishly adopting any kjnd of – to me – utterly obtuse religious world view. ALL of these religious types on here IGNORE the central, irrefutable point – that what they believe is nothing but unsupported, shamelessly contrived man made dogma For which they have NOT a scintilla of proof. Otherwise where is the actual, irrefutable evidence of the existence of god angles, demons, and heaven and hell etc (not counting San Fran Sicko)????????? They glibly IGNORE ALL (what they arrogantly and offensively call) the pagan elements of their manufactured religion. Yes the bible is "grounded in historical events" – I did not anywhere suggest that it wasn't. But it is NOT a reliable or dependable or accurate historical record which would stand even the merest hint of superficial scrutiny in any court of law as even a vaguely reliable eyewitness account. Thus one has to choose which bits you accept/reject and if you accept it all then you're a sad brainless born again sheeple. The morons, and there are hordes and hordes of them, who assert that the whole thing is the inspired word of god by inspired men are complete nutters.
The utterly ridiculous notion of the "holy ghost" is an outrageous insult to any thinking person with an IQ above their US or UK shoe size. Osiris was the world's first "proper" risen saviour god – his body and blood were consumed ritually by your ancient Egyptian types in their temples long before it came to "genuflect, genuflect" as Tom Lehrer once so wittily put it. Mithra's birthday was Dec 25th. Mr Hitchens and Mr Dawkins et al have hilariously eviscerated your average religious nutter's world view, with FACTS, the historical record and LOGIC – thus all they have left is their "faith".
The Dark Ages has only been pushed aside – like homosexual has to some extent for "gay". or the lefties have tried to push undocumented worker for illegal alien.
The history of religion is essentially the history of the state – until more modern, slightly more reasonable times. Thomas Paine – one of my (much) earlier compatriots – proffered the Age Of Reason. which contained numerous logical and other rejections of man made biblical dogma.
Human jr – I'm "not at all angry" mate … just hugely amused yet again at the usual abject intellectual dishonesty.
LEAVE IT TO SOME STUPID EUROPEON (intentionally misspelled) "ATHEIST" TO COMPLETELY MISINTERPRET THE BIBLE FROM THE GET-GO.
LIBERAL PEAWITS ALWAYS WRONGLY THINK AND CLAIM THAT THE COMMANDMENT "THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR" MEANS "NO LYING".
IT DOESN'T. AS A MATTER OF FACT, LYING IN ANY NUMBER OF INSTANCES IS OK. SPARING PEOPLE BRUTAL HONESTY IS SOMETIMES TACTFUL AND APPROPRIATE.
BEARING FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR MEANS TELLING A LIE ABOUT YOUR NEIGHBOR – UNDER OATH OF TRUTH. THAT'S ALL.
DIP SHIITES.
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