Why Do Public Schools Suck?
by Steven CrowderWhat’s most amazing to me, is that even among liberals there are very few people who can justify an anti-school choice stance. If it seems as though this video contains some “straw man” arguments… Believe me, it’s just THAT hard to find a logical case against school choice. If anyone can think of a more valid reason that hasn’t been included in the video, be sure to comment it below.
Note: No bears were actually harmed during the making of this video. Some dry cleaning was required, but that is all.
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156 Comments
Anecdotal – my brother goes to a private school that only meets 3 days a week. It's not an "accelerated" program, yet they score an average of 2-3 grades higher than the public school kids in our area. The issue is quality, not quantity.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Scrooge Report, Big Hollywood and Michael Chavez. Michael Chavez said: Why Do Public Schools Suck? http://bit.ly/4yZmSt [...]
Where do I find an unedited version?
Great video! More time for kids in school has only one purpose….teachers can demand higher salaries because they're working more hours (and the unions get more dues). How ironic that our first black President is owned by so many special interest groups (let's see, there's the trial lawyers with health care, the teacher's unions with education, the enviro-crazies with Cap & Trade, the anti-war nut jobs with our military, and mobsters….errr I mean union bosses with the removal of private ballots for unionizing companies).
This satire highlights the hypocrisy of arguments against school choice: School Voucher Opponents Protest Food Stamps Program http://optoons.blogspot.com/2009/06/school-vouche...
For truth. School vouchers are a no brainer.
While we're at it, I'm also unhappy with the work of my local police department. Clearly instead of spending money in an effort to improve it the city of New York should give me that money so I can spend it on private security.
If a parent can learn how to be a good parent without a DAY of college or a certificate, and if homeschoolers consistently overwhelmingly outperform those students who are taught by teachers (that not only have to go to school for 5 years to learn how to teach your kids, but have to keep going back to learn new methods of teaching), then the system is obviously flawed.
But Steven, somebody’s gotta cook the fries.
Private schools score better because: 1. Mom and Dad are shelling out a fortune of their own hard earned cash, or 2. Jr. has a scholarship to pay for it. Either way, there is a vested interest in making sure Jr. does his work and gets good grades. Private schools are also frequently religious schools, so children are expected to adhere to a stricter standard of behavior or be kicked out. They are also usually smaller, so class sizes are smaller. The voucher program would kill private school education, or at least damage it to the point of being indistinguishable from public schools. Think about it, how long before the ACLU is suing private schools for accepting government money, and still praying in school, thus violating church and state separation laws? How long before classroom overcrowding stats affecting discipline? How long before the Unions start talking to the underpaid, overworked private school teachers? You want to improve schools? Reintroduce corporal punishment, allow schools to expel repeat offenders without having to provide alternative schooling, and legally hold the parents accountable for their children's progress. It's time schools stop raising children and parents stop. I fear that vouchers won't solve the problem, merely redirect it.
Just for giggles…
Let's say that Obama extends the school year. Because they will be working extra days, the teacher's union demands – and of course, gets – an increase in salary for the teachers. Then, at some point during the administration, the year-extension is either declared unconstitutional or Obama rescinds it on his own…but the increased salaries stay where they are.
Or am I being too cynical?
When my youngest was in the sixth grade our local school district decided to make six graders middle schoolers. . .even though there was not room for them at the middle school. At the time, there was a charter school with a "home school" option. (They provided the books and we met with a counselor once a month to review his progress.) So we removed our child from the local school district and I home schooled him. He finished his school work every day before noon. He said later he learned more that year, did more work, but spent less time. (As a substitute teacher I know that most of an instructor's time is spent in discipline. "Don't eat the chalk. Sit down. Listen to my instructions. Stop hitting him.") However, the State of California has changed the rules and my WONDERFUL charter/home school support has been eliminated. But in 2003, I loved it.
Public School sucks because it is funded by the government, administered by bureaucrats, managed by union bosses who's priorities are NOT based on educating the kids, staffed with teachers whose brains were filled to overflowing with such edifying topics as "gender studies" layered in multicultural left wing clap-trap and political correctness, with a curriculum picked out by knuckleheads who's only accomplishment in life was to get elected to the school board (usually on an uncontested ballot).
Gosh, with all that super duper setup how can public schools fail???
Puh-leeze…
Home School was good enough for George Washington, John Adams, and Thomas Edison. It works WONDERFULLY for my children too. They get REAL science, accurate HISTORY, READING, Writing and MATH. Instead of politically correct multicultural garbage, they get solid religious moral and ETHICAL training, and they NEVER get exposed to the "socializing" effects of the popular (i.e. snotty bad attitude scum buckets) kids.
HOME SCHOOL ROCKS! (And yes it consistently outscores public school achievements)
Lastly, I fund it for a microscopic fraction of what the typical school district pays per student.
PS – I suspect my 6th grader can explain to BO why cooperating with the Taliban in Afghanistan as a method of avoiding sending more troops, will BLOW UP in his face…
As a former public science teacher, I can tell you some reasons why public schools suck.
1. Many of the teachers are idiots. Bottom of their classes at the universities.
2. Many in the public schools couldn't get a decent job in the private sector (because they're idiots). I can't count how many times I was embarrassed by association at staff meetings- whether it was the slob psychology teacher with his gut way over his belt, the angry liberal German teacher, the strange and overly dramatic English teacher, the geeky boring dim math teacher, the stupid jock coach teachers- both male and female, or the incompetent or apathetic/depressed administrator who couldn't compose a grammatically correct sentence!
3. The students are usually spoiled, obnoxious, entitled, selfish little (or obese!) brats. Too many students come to school without a clue on appropriate social behavior, have self-absorbed and delusional parents ("oh, MY little Johnny would NEVER do that!) who have hovered over and smothered them their entire lives.
4. Truthfully, most people look down on teachers as the stupid suckers willing to take paupers pay to do a job they would never do. I got many encouraging statements "We NEED good teachers!" and "Thank you for teaching" while all the while knowing the people were patronizing me. Of course any parent is happy if their child has a great teacher- those same parents usually expect OTHERS to sacrifice, not them.
5. Too much feminization of schools, too many female staff. My kids aren't allowed to play tag at school because someone could get hurt! The females tend to worry more about social stuff and feelings, and not look at the bottom line if the child works and learns.
6. Too much razzle dazzle in school (I think to impress and hide deficiencies). I don't think a kindergartener or first grader needs computers as much as he needs to learn to write, spell, and do math.
7. Usually, the most talented and promising teachers leave after about 4-7 years. You can't support yourself and a family on a teachers salary.
To be fair, I believe that every normal school has about 30% or so of really dedicated, good teachers, and those dedicated people make the remaining staff look better, and most students will have several good teachers throughout their lives. Unfortunately, not enough good teachers and too many spoiled parents.
Classroom size isn't as big a factor as some might think. I got a great education in the mid 1960's and we had over 45 students typical in grades 1-6. Granted this was a middle to upper-middle class public school in a very good neighborhood. This is going to make some angry but we didn't have any immigrant students so we didn't have problems with Non-English speaking students. We also didn't have any lower income students that I can remember so discipline was not a big problem. With a homogenous population from good families you can have larger classes and fewer problems. This situation doesn't exist in many places today. It's a different world. Things are much tougher in the public schools. Vouchers would probably help out quite a bit. Students who wanted to learn would be sheltered from the more disruptive types.
WOW!!! Soooo true. If you really want to see the truth, a fabulous investigative report came out about two years ago on 20/20. John Stossel did the journalism. One of THEE best reports I have ever seen. Let schools compete for those dollars. You will see quality return. Parents are going to have to step up to the plate, and be (gasp!) parents! That isn't the school district's job.
Two points about private vs. public schools. When I was a senior in a private high school, my class choices were two page on plain paper. Someone I worked with went to a public school. Her class choices were full color, printed on glossy paper and thirty pages long.____Point two. My father worked as a fire fighter in the small town where we lived. When he started, the high school administation was housed in a few offices in one corridor on one floor of the public high school. When he retired 28 years later, the high school administration was housed in a three story building, using all three stories, separate from the high school. Too much money spend on administration and BS classes that teach nothing.
I'm no expert, but I'm thinking maybe the homeschoolers do so well because they are focusing on the most basic studies. They are not being interrupted by unruly peers or school assemblies or mandatory trips to the guidance counselor. They are also being taught by someone that has no agenda except to help them be the best that they can be.
Does more crap make something less crappy? – Hilarious. But that's liberal logic for you.
At least the video has a happy ending..lol
Every group has a goal for children: World competition on test; correct political ideology; support political issues and candidates i.e. Obama school chorus. The only thing missing from the planners formulas are love for the childen. After all is weeded away, what do most mothers want for their children? I say they want them to be happy. Healthy and happy should be the goal for educators and not what some politico in DC or hometown USA. The teachers don't need to be super brains. They need to love kids.
I witnessed two first grade classes and two teachers, on a class outing, waiting for a library to open. The little ones in both classes lined up on either side of the door were figity and acting like kids. One teacher was demanding, threatening and critical. The children were terrified of her but still goofing up. The second teacher had her class sing a happy song they loved. What a difference loving and understanding kids make.
Part 1:
http://www.tsowell.com/speducat.html
"St. Augustine High School in New Orleans was a particularly striking example of achieving academic success while going against the grain of prevailing opinion in educational circles. It was established back in 1951, during the era of racial segregation in the South, as a school for black boys, presided over by an all-white staff from the Josephite order. None of these young priests had ever taken a course in a department or school of education. To the horror of some outside members of the order, the school used corporal punishment. There was no unifying educational theory. The school simply kept doing things that worked and discarded things that didn't.
The first black student from the South to win a National Merit Scholarship came from St. Augustine. So did the first Presidential Scholar of any race from the state of Louisiana. As of 1974, 20 percent of all Presidential Scholars in the history of the state had come from this school with about 600 black students.
Test scores were never used as a rigid cutoff for admission to St. Augustine. There were students there with IQs in the 60s, as well as others with IQs more than twice that high. For individual students and for the school as a whole, the average IQ rose over the years– being in the 80s and 90s in the 1950s and then reaching the national average of 100 in the 1960s. To put that in perspective, both blacks and whites in the South during this era tended to score below the national average on IQ and other standardized tests.
Most of these children did not come from middle-class families. Those who parents were in professional or white-collar occupations were less than one-tenth as numerous as those whose parents worked in "unskilled and semi-skilled" occupations.
What are the "secrets" of such successful schools?
The biggest secret is that there are no secrets, unless work is a secret. Work seems to be the only four-letter word that cannot be used in public today."
If you liked this, read Inside American Education.
Test scores were never used as a rigid cutoff for admission to St. Augustine. There were students there with IQs in the 60s, as well as others with IQs more than twice that high. For individual students and for the school as a whole, the average IQ rose over the years– being in the 80s and 90s in the 1950s and then reaching the national average of 100 in the 1960s. To put that in perspective, both blacks and whites in the South during this era tended to score below the national average on IQ and other standardized tests.
Most of these children did not come from middle-class families. Those who parents were in professional or white-collar occupations were less than one-tenth as numerous as those whose parents worked in "unskilled and semi-skilled" occupations.
What are the "secrets" of such successful schools?
The biggest secret is that there are no secrets, unless work is a secret. Work seems to be the only four-letter word that cannot be used in public today."
If you liked this, read Inside American Education and the rest of the article.
I pulled the last of my 7 children out of public school Christmas 2007. I had had enough. We go to a charter where I can use what they have to supplement what I do. They also offer classes in a pretty decent range of subjects. My 5th grader in learning Latin. Why? It's an interesting language from which other languages. Plus, I figure it will aid him in learning other foreign languages. Most importantly, I can teach US History without it turning into a social studies class. There is a reason history was changed to social studies. I also enjoy having my children home with me.
I have two sons that are interested in teaching. One graduates in April. Why would they want to teach. The oldest one has been mentored by his second grade teacher, a man. He has always been a great example to my son. We have talked about this and he thinks that he can be an influence for good in a child's life. He is an incredible young man and I hope that he can accomplish his goals.
Actually, the next three children want to be teachers and the one after that wants to be a nurse. Go figure.
An interesting book is John Taylor Gatto's "The Underground History of American Education". A little difficult but you will learn why we where we are.
I think nothing illustrates the leftist mentality than opposition to school vouchers. Better education at a lower price to the taxpayer and they are opposed because it isn't government centered and union pandering. Purely ideological adherence to the mentality of state control vs what works-and the biggest hypocrisy, the kids that would most benefit are bright inner city kids trapped in a crappy schools that have to dumb down course content.
As a former English/Social Studies teacher, I can tell you:
1. Ditto.
2. That is all.
"Reintroduce corporal punishment"
lol…
If they don't behave, beat them. Seriously, are you dense? Teaching through the application of pain is bad enough. I guess once you cross that line it doesn't much matter who does it right? Why not have an employee of the state beat your child without due process when he acts up.
How about we start that now? If your child doesn't chant the morning "Obama" chant with enough conviction, or if he doesn't say grace to Obama at lunch with a tear in his eye, he gets strapped to the jungled gym and caned.
Okay, I'm having fun with you, but seriously, think it through.
There's two reasons for repeated misbehavior in class. The parents don't know or the parents don't care.
And it won't meant the end of excellent private schools. Top quality private schools will always exist. The parents with the means and motivation will pay extra to ensure a quality education.
If your local police department did as bad a job protecting you as much of the public school system does teaching kids, it WOULD be better to arm each citizen to protect themselves. Fortunately your analogy falls flat, since your police department isn't that incompetent. But nice try.
This is a somewhat flawed an@logy (note the "@" to avoid immediately being banned to the site admin).
The police department doesn't provide individualized services on a per capita basis. The public schools do.
Good job Steve as always. If they extend the school hours, I will start home schooling my grandchildren. That is if it's still allowed by Hussein Obama.
Jeeeeealous!
No TAG? Fuck that shit! I'm a girl and I LOVED tag, especially freeze tag. That was THE game back in the day!
Even though they're probably getting chubby sitting at the computer all day, modern technology does give us an advantage:
"Oh, MY little Johnny would NEVER do that!"
"Ma'am, please allow me to introduce you to a website called YouTube."
Agreed. My wife has never paddled a student in her life, but she can walk into any classroom and have the students jumping through hoops inside of three minutes just by the force of her personality.
Those techniques also work at home, sadly…
The truth is, a good teacher doesn't need corporal punishment, but there are cases where an individual student needs to be removed from the classroom with consequences that matter. This requires backup from the school administration, which is oftentimes lacking.
I come from a family of many teachers and could write a thesis on all of the problems with public education (especially in California). For brevity, I will condense the issue down to two main problems:
1. Tenure. Even the member of my family who are tenured don't like tenure. Why? Because teachers that have tenure cannot be fired unless they commit a crime or have sex with a student. What the hell kind of standard is that? Imagine if that was the standard at any other job. "Well Bill, you come in late, do little work and what you do get done is of terrible quality. Unfortunately, you haven't committed any crimes, so here's that union mandated raise.
2. Bureaucracy. As others have noted, school administration has gotten out of control and we all get to pay for it. Of course, this is a government-run institution, so we shouldn't be surprised.
Private schools score better for one reason only: the stupid kids are all kicked out and sent back to the public schools.
I really can't disagree with anything you said. I've mentioned before my wife is a career educator (25 years in the classroom, and counting), and we've seen exactly the same things you have listed here, repeated ad nauseum.
Still, there have always been good teachers and bad teachers, good administrators and bad administrators. What's different now is the breakdown of the family. Your point #3 above hits the nail on the head.
If the owner of a football club offered to take over running the entire football league, everyone would see that was really stupid, because of the obvious conflict of interest in having the same club competing in the league while being also in charge of setting and enforcing the rules.
Obviously stupid.
But that is exactly how public education works. The government sets the rules, enforces the rules and is the main producer. The conflict of interest is obvious, but ignored because somehow government is magical.
The two main providers of schooling are governments and churches. That is because they both are interested in socialising children into particular sets of beliefs. Since it is hard to test whether you have actually inculcated the beliefs, one controls the inputs.
So, extending school hours means control over more inputs.
Not only is school choice needed, governments should stop running schools at all, and just stick to making and enforcing the rules and ensuring all students have funding (since we all benefit from the literacy of our fellow citizens).
Instead of focusing on learning, too many public schools have taken a page out of so-called higher learning institutions and have focused obsessively on social engineering. This makes liberals very happy but helps keep too many kids illiterate or barely literate. Lefties by contrast, curry favor with unions and are opposed to school choice. Sadly, extended school time in many instances just means more indoctination. What next, little red books?
"I'll start representing kids when kids start paying union dues." Albert Shanker, American Federation of Teachers
"Well Bill, you come in late, do little work and what you do get done is of terrible quality. Unfortunately, you haven't committed any crimes, so here's that union mandated raise."
Know any Federal or State government employees?
"Well Bill, you come in late, do little work and what you do get done is of terrible quality. Unfortunately, you haven't committed any crimes, so here's that union mandated raise."
Know any Federal or State government employees? It isn't just the teachers' union.
The only "Myth" here is socialization. There is no need to "hang out at the mall" to be a well rounded person. Nor is there a need for dirty jokes, bad attitudes like "Math sucks" or "Science is for Geeks", there is no need for learning you must wear the same clothes as the "cool" kids or be outcasts.
Socailzation is merely a myth created by social engineers to make sure they can still poison your kids.
How about this for socialization. I have 2 kids 2 years apart in age who don't fight with each other and are best friends. Find that in public schooled kids.
I firmly believe the vast majority of leaders in the upcoming generations will have been homeschooled.
Get over yourself; the woman has 7 children and most likely not a lot of extra time. Perhaps coming here is a quick indulgence done on the fly. More importantly, she probably has her priorities straight and satisfying people like you on a blog rates at the bottom.
I'm sure your "career educator" wife has made mistakes. Maybe she shouldn't be 'educating' anyone either.
BTW, before you go telling others to proof read stuff before they post, do it first yourself; you missed a comma.
"How about this for socialization. I have 2 kids 2 years apart in age who don't fight with each other and are best friends."
That isn't really what "socialization" means. We see that all the time in home-schooled kids. It's really more the result of insulation. How well do they function and interact with kids who aren't just like them? That's a better test.
Maybe the "thumbs down" was because you used the unverifiable sentence; "SOME parents do a really good job home schooling their kids. MOST only think they do".
What is the exact percentage that makes up 'some' and 'most'? Your sample survey included how many students over how long a period of time? Were your wife's professional evaluations done at the end of the entire K-12 home school program or were they focused on a single hone school year? Were the parents using a self-created curriculum or were they using the private school correspondence type? What were the problems with socialization that you took note of? How did the problems manifest themselves after graduation?
Look, I'm not trying to bust your chops. I'm sure there is a valid point in your argument but it's no more factually based than someone saying that home schooling is the greatest and every kid, regardless of their make-up and their parent's situations, should do it. I'm sure your wife is a dedicated, competent professional and her observations might be useful. Still, it's an opinion.
For what it's worth, my (untrained and non-scientific) observations have shown just the opposite. Most home school situations work out fine. Some don't. As far as the socialization myth, well, that is, in my observations, a creation of people who just don't like home schooling. By the way, my opinion is as flawed as yours since it is based upon a good number of families I know (including my own) who live in the same geographical area and have similar values.
The only true school choice is closing the Liberal Indoctrination Centers they call public schools and eliminating the NEA and AFT.
Private and home schooled children are most often well advanced of their peers in the public system. Not by a few months but often by years. This should easily tell the Left that there is a huge problem with the public school system. The problem is that the Left refuses delivery, attempts to limit the choices the parents can make and then blames the Right.
The Left needs school choice eliminated. Why? They need the public indoctrination centers so they can dumb down the kids. Educated children don't willingly swallow the claptrap that the Liberals hand out. Less educated ones willingly swallow it as the teacher spoon feeds it to them.
You got it…………public school is not simply about the 3 Rs.
I read a story recently about a child who could not attend school full time anymore due to sickness. The board said that the parents could get a tutor to teach the child and the the child only needed 3 hours a day. The parent s couldn't believe it and went back to the board rep to make sure it was correct and it was…so what goes on the rest of the day? I homeschool and we spend 3 hours and that is typical among HSrs.
You should look into what types of people are hired as school administrators in California. Business students. They don't even have to have any educational experience or training. They are also paid more than double a teacher's salary. Doesn't seem right to me or many of my California teacher friends.
Tom,
Insulation my @ss you don't know me or my kids. Can you start a comment without an attack?
I suspect they get along better with others than you do and I do. They are MUCH less likely to atack someone they dissagree with. They listen to what others say and think about it before he react.
My kids do not sit in front of a video teacher, and live in a closet. they take music lessons, go on homeschool group field trips, go to church, and play outside.
Proper socialization begins at home learning to get along with siblings an parents. It then extends to the larger group of extended family and friends. Eventually that community expands to whatever they desire as a sphere of influence.
My 24 year old went to public school thru 6th, and private Lutheran chool through 12th. He is bright, but none of his values reflect those of myself or my wife. He totally bought into the institutionalized mediocrity that was K thru 6 in his experience and we've never been able to unseat those beliefs.
It is too late to influence your views, you are set in your ways an convinced you are right. So be it. Maybe I am too. I'm not here to argue with you.
My point remains, Homeschooling, if you can economically afford to do it, is VASTLY superior to any other option out there and I highly vouch for it.
Vouchers is better than public if you cannot homeschool, but it is not ideal.
Crowder is pretty much spot on correct in his entertaining video.
Bye Old_Tom, Enjoy the view from your ivory tower, It has been real, and it has been fun, but it has not been real fun.
David
Old_Tom,
Go ahead and attack my typo's. Clearly by the evidence I've presented, I went to public school.
Like all coercive government institutions,the public schools need not engage in performance producing behavior in order to thrive or even remain in "business".
It amazes me to see how many people who cannot understand the simple dynamics behind unaccountable institutions compared to for profit,efficient enterprises.
Does it suck when people are fired from private companies-of course,but in the end we all benefit from the added incentives to produce quality products and services as compared to the hideous,stifling bureaucracies of socialst or communist nations.
There isn't anything more hypocritical than a politician (and his wife) extolling the virtues of our public school system and then sending their obnoxious, spoiled replicants off to Sidwell Friends in D.C.
While I agree that many public schools have enormous problems, there are many public school systems that work very well. I happen to work in one, in the suburbs of Philadelphia. I understand the problems from both perspectives, as my husband, a retired Army officer, teaches in a Philadelphia high school. However, when I go to work each day, I see teachers and staff who are dedicated, motivated, and truly concerned about the welfare and education of each and every child. Please remember that our own children attend these schools, by and large, so we have a genuine stake in running them with professionalism and enthusiasm.
Many of the problems they deal with every day concern parents who are over-the-top with their demands or at the other extreme, completely disconnected from their child's education, to the detriment of the kids whose parents work side by side with their teachers. The bureaucracy is the crusher. The paperwork and legally mandated meetings that need to take place to meet state and federal requirements is crushing.
My school district manages to provide an excellent education with well above average test scores, at less cost per student than not only Philadelphia, but most of the other surrounding suburban districts.
Finally, until we get a handle on the cultural crises in this country, the broken homes, drug and alcohol problems, etc. we will not see a rebound in the quality of education in many parts of the country. In fact, these factors affect our day-to-day affairs in my school as much as anything else, as they bring with them children who are angry, disaffected, and disheartened. That we cannot change on our own.
Please do not paint us all with the same brush. For those communities where bureaucracy, graft, and incompetence reign, charter schools and vouchers may be the answer. For the rest of us, please leave us alone and allow us to do the job we have worked hard to do.
Administrators that are overeducated, with now classroom experience are at the root of the problem. Shellee is right on.
Administrators that are overeducated, with no classroom experience are at the root of the problem. Shellee is right on.
Liberals use the same logic that failed business owners do: "If I sell my product for less than it costs me to make it, I can make it up in volume!"
Definition of "political correctness" (as defined by some Texas A&M students): The premise that it is entirely feasible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
I go to a state university where there is VERY LITTLE difference between students who went to public school and students who went to private school. I've met kids who brag about how superior their private school is to my school yet are placed in remedial Math and English classes. I've met public school graduates who shine throughout their college career and move on to great graduate programs. And I've even met people who've opted out of formal education all together and paved their own path in life.
I do support vouchers, but not out of some disdain for public schools. I attended an inner city school that hosted a magnet program that drew in wealthy students from out of district. There are many ways bright students can receive a quality education within the public school system.
I definitely support school vouchers. My children have either been home-schooled or in private schools, EVEN THOUGH our local public schools are among the top in our state. I just can't deal with the 'gubmint' educating my children. And I greatly resent paying higher and higher taxes 'for the children.' Our school system gets over $1.5 million for students who don;t even attend (those that are homeschooled or private students) and they still can't meet their budget. I WANT VOUCHERS. My dad was a public school teacher and HE even supported vouchers.
The socializing myth of homeschooled children is way out of reality. Homeschoolers are more mature when it comes to socializing due to the fact that they have their parents around all the time to guide them where as public school kids tend to get a lot of bad habits during the day at school when they don't have someone with a vested interest in their future watching them. I had a beautiful homeschooled girlfriend once that didn't last as long as it should have because she left to go to college before she was 17.
I have 3 children in public schools. I agree with a majority of the posts regarding the problems that abound in the system; however, in MN at least, it is possible to get a great public education. It all boils down to one factor: Parental support. If a child comes from a family that places a high value on education, and expects their children to do their best, then the child will, in most cases, suceed. PARENTS NEED TO SET HIGH EXPECTATIONS, the school system is a reflection of the general attitude of the public.
OldTom
Not every parent is a 'good' instructor, but be fair, not every 'teacher' is a good instructor.
ps. every homeschooling parent has to accept their child, regardless of how abysmally stupid and unmotivated that child is.
They can of course adjust the method to the child.(if the parent is smart enough)
Public schools must teach according to the mandate of the system, often being forced to teach 'to the test' .
Your comment is well said. I had read somewhere that less than half of today's teachers scored above average on their SAT's. It is unrealistic for us to expect dummies to know how to teach kids how to be smart. And I also agree with your point that many parents, i believe you are saying, are not teaching their kids character and skills that help build citizens, productive tax payers that work hard, don't whine, don't expect handouts and help their fellow neighbor.
Old_Tom
"How well do they function and interact with kids who aren't just like them?"
**
How well do liberals get along with conservatives?
I consider myself to have liberal leanings and i agree with that statement. Do not fund crap– fix it, replace it or both. I would think though a great many working families will welcome longer school days for the main reason that it will lower their babysitting and summer camp bills.
I am a leftist and I support school vouchers. Our public schools are a publicly funded corporate-styled monopoly AIG – they churn out papers for people to hold with no value…… I am also against state control, and fight schools every day to even consider using what works. I hear school administrators testify that over 70% of their high school graduates have to take remedial (non-credit bearing) courses in college in order to get to the credit bearing classes– they say this like they are talking about the weather.
Your comments sum up what I have observed myself over four decades. America has allowed teaching to become a default profession for aimless souls, mediocre bureaucrats, and malcontents mixed in with the truly talented and excellent minority. I disagree a bit about pay, though. Many teachers in wealthier districts who stay long enough make generous salaries and have excellent benefits. If you add the benefits to the salary, they are some of the best compensated professionals around. That said, I don't begrudge paying well for outstanding results. Educating future generations is a vital task. But the fact that any teacher with tenure is compensated the same regardless of results is a travesty. If anything, it encourages poorly performing teachers to stick around since they have fewer options elsewhere. What business could succeed if its worst employees are protected by a crazed union? Look at what happened to the auto companies who were brought down by unions who made outrageous demands and protected workers who did sloppy work.
You can't spend 30 years decimating public school funding and then bitch about the state of our schools. Gods you folks are asshats
I agree that the government should not be involved, and the free market should reign. This would make everything private, and true competition would drive efficiency (more teaching per buck).
If I can use my public tax voucher for a private school, I'm all for it…. still I'd rather not be charged the tax for it in the first place… why tax me, just to give it back to me? Are vouchers just a form of welfare, when you should just keep your own $ to begin with? Are vouchers just another vehicle that will be abused by government? Thoughts?
I agree Ken with your points. I don't think all govt run institutions are crap (for instance military branches, NIH and Medicare), but bureaucracy has its own problems inherent to very un-nimble, passive, non-competitive, service-oriented entities with many layers of people not actually invested in any outcome other than going through the motions..
Old_Tom
" This requires backup from the school administration, which is oftentimes lacking."
** This requires backup from the parents – when you have true parental involvement with the education of a child and a 'good' school system, you have the best of education.
Sadly this is infrequent.
What is really needed is smaller 'community' based schools for the early years, with sightly larger schools and community as the children mature. An ever expanding circle (starting small).
This is how it all started, sadly 'social engineering' has ruined the model.
If you have the youth, you have the nation. – Hitler More time…more influence to focus the anger of this nations youth on to a false target. Name any liberal agenda of hate and there is your target.
I have absolutely no problem with vouchers as long as the schools the receive government funding undergoes the same testing the public schools do. I am opposed to school choice because the private schools are not accountable for the students education. A student can move to the private school with state funds and still not work at grade level, but we will never know because they do not have to undergo state testing.
Test the private schools and I will be all for it.
Oh you are right on about YouTube! I have had long talks to my daughter about the difference between doing something regrettable, and doing something regrettable that gets video taped and posted to YouTube!
Just for the record, my wife's professional experience includes over 10 years of proctoring and evaluating standardized tests and interviewing students and their parents for placement in a private school. Most of these were entering seventh through ninth grade; they came from the public schools, other private schools, and home school settings.
But I really don't want to continue this "debate" on multiple fronts. Do what you think is the best thing for your own children.
Thanks, Ginger. It looks like I could use the help. But really, I have nobody to blame but myself…
"Can you start a comment without an attack?"
Well, yes, I can. There was no "attack" in the comment to which you replied.
Too true, but feel free to dig deeper into the teacher's unions. They will provide endless sources of comic inspiration (think "rubber rooms" – or just read about the tenured 3rd grade tchr. who pled guilty yesterday to stealing her students' lunch money and has been suspended with pay.) John Stoessel and Ann Coulter have both done great research on the topic.
In response to number 5 I'll quote King of the Hill "(overprotective dude) Do you want your boy to get hurt?…. (Hank) Well yeah a little".
Not to mention my own experience home schooling. I studied an average of 3 hours a day (of book learning) all throughout my high school years. That left plenty of time for: all kinds of interesting trips all over the place, hiking, bicycling, carpentry, gardening, learning how to program a computer, fiddling with electronics, learning music, playing basketball and soccer, meeting with friends, and plenty of recreational reading.
When I took the SAT and ACT– in 10th grade– I placed within the 95th percentile, and had no trouble whatsoever getting into college or adapting to the social life there.
My son is in public school. He's doing fine there. We spend time with him at home reviewing things, and that is probably what makes all the difference.
actually we do! we have home security systems & private security guards. FREE MARKET BABY. only $40/month. which I agree, should be a tax credit.
and anything purchased under the 2nd amendment should be TAX FREE as well! that's private security.
this is the comments section. i assume people are not trying to write exceptional pieces, just writing off the top of their head. yes you are very snarky.
I like your comment but do disagree. I think its a matter of time before your school will fail as well. I believe this govt run education system is whithering, your school happens to be strong and motivated… but nothing is strong enough to endure. Birth, life, and death. The public school system needs to die, and something better reborn. I hope home schooling, private & church schooling, choice, charter and more comes up. And I hope you will also be reborn.
another issue, kids are being taught to be ashamed of America, American History.
I ask kids what they think of America or History:
1 answered we pollute the most. That was her first thought.
1 answered that religion must kill other's to go to heaven
1 answered America is just whatever, nothing special
1 answered we made a treaty with indians than killed their women and children.
my own daughter complained, "why do i keep learning about indians!? in 3rd grade, in 4th and 5th, i feel like that's all we learn." she knew nothing of our founding fathers.
Classic modern liberalism. I can smell it a mile away.
The subject of this debate is school vouchers. incapable of debating on the merits of supporting teacher unions or tenure, you simply change the subject to the absurd, hoping no one will notice.
Gotcha.
So, if you want to play, let's play. I'm unhappy with my 4M road runner internet connection performance. Why doesn't the government just nationalize the internet and issue us all 33.3K modems? We'll all be equal.
Why do we have to pay grocery stores outrageous prices! I want the government to take over food production and distribution. And them my fridge will contain nothing but bricks of government cheese.
Classic modern liberalism. I can smell it a mile away.
The subject of this debate is school vouchers. Incapable of debating on the merits of supporting teacher unions or tenure, you simply change the subject to the absurd, hoping no one will notice.
Gotcha.
So, if you want to play, let's play. I'm unhappy with my 4M road runner internet connection performance. Why doesn't the government just nationalize the internet and issue us all 33.3K modems? We'll all be equal.
Why do we have to pay grocery stores outrageous prices! I want the government to take over food production and distribution. And them my fridge will contain nothing but bricks of government cheese.
My daughter is in eleventh grade, all of them at local parochial schools. While I can't be sure from your post, I get the feeling you don't know much about them.
Yes teachers are paid less, but every one I've spoken with has told me they wouldn't trade the freedom they have in their classrooms for a public school job for any amount of money. There is your real difference between public and private schools. Teachers run their classes, not bureaucrats at the state capitols or Washington. They do.
I'm convinced that's where better student performance and higher grades come from. Also the teachers know if they don't deliver, they will be replaced.
NY City schools currently have around 700 teachers collecting full pay and benefits, hanging out all day in a room, awaiting investigations into misconduct. That comes out to $65 million a year. Nice use of scarce resources.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/education/200...
Bingo!
I remember when we attended my daughter's 3grade DARE graduation at her parochial school. In the gym, painted in huge black letters on the wall "Discipline," "Commitment," and "Self control."
I leaned over to my wife and whispered "that's exactly why we pay extra for this school."
There's one main private school system where we live, Catholic Schools of 'X' County. My daughter is enrolled in it, and has been since kindergarten.
Consistently, every year, the test scores are considerably higher (the local paper reports on the grades for the public schools on the NY state mandated tests. And also consistently, the only students who don't go on to college upon graduation are the ones entering the military.
The majority of the high school students are already taking advanced classes for which they get college credit.
I'm convinced.
30 Years decimating funding? Which planet do you live on? Because school funding in NY has exploded for the last 30 years. My property taxes to the district have gone up over 500% in the 15 years since I bought my house. Teacher salaries in the local districts have doubled in the last 10 years. And test scores continue to sink, and drop out rates continue to rise.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you are a liberal. Because that's the liberal answer to any question, raise taxes, make government larger, and then everything will be right as rain.
Asshat.
Ah, another thing. When we were kids, we were limited to 1 hour of TV a day. I have a similar guideline for our children.
That probably makes up at least the other 50% of the difference, not to mention tons of other benefits.
FYI- Survey Finds More Children Unattended After School
By Katie Ash
Roughly 15 million school-age children are left unattended after school—up from 14 million in 2004, says a report Requires Adobe Acrobat Reader released Tuesday by the Washington-based Afterschool Alliance.
Thirty percent of those students left alone are middle schoolers, 4 percent are in elementary school, and the remaining 66 percent are students of high school age, according to the nationally representative survey, which included responses from about 30,000 U.S. households during the 2008-09 school year. Most participants were surveyed through the mail with some follow-up phone surveys, and the margin of error for the study is plus or minus sixth-tenths of a percent.
My daughter attends private school, and while they aren't required to take the state tests, the schools do it anyway, and they kick the public school's ass every time.
Last time they took the tests at the middle school around the corner, 1 child failed one test. Every one else passed everything with flying colors.
95% of the practitioners of any profession are poor. In most professions, the system has a method to allow the excellent practitioners to get more business than the poor practitioners, thus giving a strong incentive for continued improvement. The teaching profession operates as a group of independent professionals who are paid the same, have the same number of customers, yet have very little actual observation of and collaboration with each other. There is no real ability to learn from each other – nor incentive. Unfortunately, this means that each student — on average — has about 1 or 2 excellent teachers while rising from K to 12. In weaker districts, many students graduate without having even a single excellent teacher. There is no need for teachers to improve over time and the feedback cycle for district performance is measured in decades – the time it takes for a town to decline because of poor teaching.
My daughter attends a Catholic high school because we are fortunate enough to have the resources to send her. And hands down, its the best school in the area.
Yes, she has to attend Mass when they hold it, and theology class (taught by a pre Vatican II nun, who drives her nuts).
Over at the public school a couple of years ago, a teacher got caught taking her class on a field trip to a local cemetery in order to watch a wiccan priestess perform a religious ceremony to thank the earth goddess for bestowing another spring on her earth children.
You do the math.
I need to ask you why you believe lower income families can't raise disciplined children, making them 'good families'. I believe parenting is a skill set, not a purchase.
I would also suggest you had very very good teachers, who had killer classroom management skills [that teachers these days don't know exist.] There were more then too (great teachers), because colleges were more picky about the ones they accepted and honored with a degree. Other commenters have noted this dismal, invisible decline in instructor quality.
Right on!
Homeschoolers outperform public school students on average, simply because the public schools have to accept every student regardless of how abysmally stupid and unmotivated he or she (who are we kidding here? It's a "he") may be. It's teaching to the lowest common denominator. Blaming "the system", past a point, is simply unfair. Blame the parents, or the lack thereof.
By the way, my wife is a career educator and has professionally evaluated a lot of home schooled students. It's not all roses. Before you buy into the home schooling myth, make sure you're equipped to supply all of your childrens' educational needs, including socialization.
(edit)
Nice stealth 'thumbs down'. Was it the remark about the "home schooling myth"? Sorry, but we've seen too many of them to be impressed. Some parents do a really good job home schooling their kids. Most only think they do. I get tired of the self-congratulation.
Your telling me. My (3 years) younger sibling & I both attended the same public high school. In my junior year I was taking AP US history & AP English while she was a junior ended up taking a course entitled "Diversity & Social Justice." One day she left some of the papers from that course out and I took a look at it. It was how to pick up "subconscience hints" for things like racism, sexism & homophobia.
I can just see a future courtroom. "Your Honor, he sexually harrassed me!" "What did he do?" "He didn't do anything." "Well, what did he say?' "He didn't say anything, the harassment was all subconscious!"
"You have been found guilty of subconscious sexual harrassment and I hereby sentence you to…."
The government is doing their damnest to control how much bankers are paid. How about they reduce teacher's pay if they continue producing fuctionally illiterate 'graduates'?
When it comes to failing schools, the first thing you have to realize is that back in the 30s, American commies decided to take over schools, unions and media. They accomplished two of their goals: education and unions.
Another of the important points is that the most serious damage began in the late 60s and early 70s when liberals argued that schools were discriminating against Blacks and Latinos because they could not score highly enough on the SATs.
One of their main arguments was that the tests were not fair because they did not reflect the experiences of Blacks and Hispanics. Thus, they began lowering the required reading, writing and arithmetic standards in the universities. They began replacing the curricula with classes that Blacks and Hispanics would prefer. They then filtered down these failures to grade schools.
Vouchers make a lot of sense because it relieves kids of the current commie engineered incompetence via education theory and the unions that enforce it.
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