Lonewolf Diaries: Hollywood Men, Grow a Pair and Marry the Dame!
by Steven Crowder“Marriage is just a title,” “It’s a prejudice institution,” or my personal favorite, “I don’t need a piece of paper to prove my love.” We hear these nice little soundbytes from the cowardly men of Hollywood time and time again. Even more sadly, is that all too often, their leading ladies are conned into going along with it. Women, what are you thinking?! Don’t you realize that these chumps are playing you like a fiddle?
I was a groomsman at one of my best friend’s wedding this weekend. As I gazed across at the Bridesmaids all teary-eyed with an air of longing, I couldn’t help but think to myself, “Man, Johnny Depp’s a douche.” The truth is that behind every anti-marriage sermon given from a Hollywood hubby, there’s an incredibly disappointed lady. I don’t care how much of a “strong, independent woman” you are; all little girls dream of their perfect wedding day. Before the feminists get upset, let me tell you that none of this comes from a place of sexism. It comes from an endeared heart. It’s why little boys would rather play “Space Aliens” and little girls would rather play “House.” Your inherent ability for compassion and nurturing is what makes you the best among us.
It also happens to be exactly what makes the Johnny Depps, Tim Robbins, Kurt Russells and Brad Pitts of the world the most selfish dipsticks on the planet. Robbing the woman that you “love” of her wedding day is deplorable. The concept of love (we’re talking about actual love here, not the silly Hollywood version) involves esteeming her needs and desires before your own. I don’t care if you want to “play the field” or if you truly don’t feel the need for a piece of paper to confirm your affection, because I guarantee you that deep down… she does.
Now I’m sure some of you are wondering about the Megan Foxs of the world. You know, the girls who claim that they are “not the marrying type.” I’ll tell you what: show me one of these girls, and every single time, I will show you a pansy-man behind the charade who has either A) denied her marriage to the point of reluctant acceptance on the woman’s behalf, or B) actually conned the poor dame into believing his crap. The Megan Foxs of the world are the perfect target for germ-balls–they’re hot… and dumb as a bag of hammers.
Keep in mind, ladies, that men are always and will always be sexually predatorial by nature. We can’t change it; it’s who we are. We can however choose on how to act on said urges and what kind of moral filter we’ll be running them through. The type of guy who selfishly refuses to marry is probably not the kind of chap who’s concerned with fine-tuning his moral compass.
The first thing that goes through his mind when a cuter, younger babe approaches him will inevitably be, “Hey, I’m not married!” Keep that in mind, ladies.
To all the honest guys out there, back me up on this one. To the ladies, is this news to you? Do you actually think that the male mind is anything short of disgusting?
Finally, to all of the gutless yellow-bellied Hollywood leading men… Sack up, do the right thing, put a ring on her finger and give her the true commitment and respect that she deserves. Period.
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274 Comments
Well said. Though I botched my marriage, when I was dating my ex she said repeatedly that she did not want to get married, as I had told her many times that "I was not the marrying type." When I finally did ask her, well, she was very, very happy and I realized what a selfish bastard I had been for many years.
Oh, come on, Steve! I liked playing Man From Uncle and shooting from behind the trees in my backyard with the boyz! Married one of 'em!
Johnny Depp has said he would marry his girlfriend, but she has no interest in it. He has never been the one to shy away from proposals, as his past would show, maybe there is a fear that that may spell the end of the relationship. Also, Is it not possible that a woman may be the one who doesn't want to get hitched? or do we not have that option?
Woman "nest" Men "hunt" Next time you are in a store, watch the couples. The men go out and find stuff, then bring it back to their wife. We are different for a reason, however we can control those impulses.
Like Sadie Hawkins day? ;^)
Sorry. The statistics don't back you up. I don't know the exact percentage without looking it up, but the majority of women and children of divorce live below the poverty line.
My husband lived quite comfortably after he divorced me, while 10 years later, I still continue to struggle.
I think for the most part, everyone suffers in a divorce. It pretty much sucks all around.
But that doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for marriage.
I believe in marriage!
And my greatest disappointment in life was the failure of mine.
My uber liberal sister, who bought a house with her boyfriend, was over-THE-MOON when he finally proposed! I was shocked- I just assumed she liked the co-habiting, non-legal, just trust me thing. I was also surprised at her tears when they got married. Seems like that "little" piece of paper is more significant than men who con women want to believe.
Agreed. We shouldn't blame Tim Robbins too harshly — I think Susan Sarandon once said something to the effect that one benefit of her relationship with Tim was that either one of them was free to end it if it went wrong, with no strings attached..
A piece of paper can change everything. I'm not surprised that the gutless worms of Hollywood (including the women as well as the men) are afraid of it.
You're spot-on, Steven. Love that shuns the commitment of marriage isn't love, but selfishness. It's the desire to milk the cow for free, to use a particularly unflattering analogy. And I am convinced that marriage teaches a man and a woman things about God's love that we would otherwise miss in our quests for self-gratification.
A real man is one who makes the commitment to stay, to be made "one flesh" with his beloved and forego all others.
I wish there would be more movies coming out of Hollywood which celebrated marriage, depicting married couples who encounter challenges to their relationship but emerge faithful to each other. I like the movies that end with the wedding just before the end credits, but the story never ends there.
Women don't like jerks, per se, but I believe you're on to something about their being attracted to confidence. You don't have to be an @$$wipe to be appealing to women, you just have to be unafraid; if they realize that you find them somewhat intimidating, your chances of hitting it off with them on a romantic level go out the window.
The biggest mistake women make is letting the man convince them to live together– to see if we're compatible. Yeah right. I flatly refused to live with anyone before marriage and I'm convinced it was the smartest thing I could have done. I never had to live through the dissapointment of not getting a proposal and my husband knew right from the start that I wasn't going to settle for a half-hearted commitment.
Steve, How dare you insult a bag of hammers like that!?
Most of the women I know who have been divorced with kids are barely hanging on. Not neccessarily national poverty level but what counts as poor very much depends on where you live. And those alimony checks can come with major strings that leave the man in continued control of his ex-family's life.
Part of the issue with marrying jerkface (IMHO) is that women are taught they have to take control and part of this can mean being responsible for "changing him." If you've saved him, you supposedly have control. Plus, I think a lot of women simply have no idea what a decent man acts like (unless they watch old westerns) or read historical romance novels (don't laugh, it's true!) so they take what they can get. Lord knows there aren't any men in my family I would suggest a girl marry!
As my Grandmother always said, "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free." When men went
West, things were wild, including the women. But when the wives showed up, things calmed down. Women are supposed to put "the brakes" on men. But when we don't, men won't settle down. Feminazis are the reason things are so out of control. Men no longer feel the need for marriage since women don't. The feminization of society is behind it all. I love men with backbones & who want to commit everything to the women who allow men to be manly men. That's why I married a manly man. My husband loves me & he didn't get any "milk" till he "bought" me. He didn't mind waiting. He thought I was worth it!
I found it interesting that before Farah Fawcett died, the guy she was with had decided to marry her. After decades of them saying they didn't want to get married he changed his tune. Could it be because deep down inside he knew she wanted to be married? I think maybe.
I completely agree and good for you for not settling!
I love this article. It's true that us women desire to be loved and cherised. It's in us. We may deny it or try to cover it up, it's only because of the way the world is, women don't want to get hurt. Men for their part need to stop being like Adam. Adam had to protect the garden and Eve . A predator walked in, went after his woman and the whimp did nothing. He just stood there. He didn't defend her or fight for her. Women love men who fight for them, BTW.
Talk about an Alpha-Beta litmus test, which BH tends to give us about once a month, joy of joys. Like Kendama said, the fiscal repruscussions for men whose marriages fail are severe. Crowder, you're killing me with this one – you, as a groomsman, were "gazing" at teary-eyed bridesmaids? To quote one Garth, "I think I'm gonna hurl!"
Assuming that "pansy man" grabbing Megan Fox's goodies exists, he's no pansy man at all, but an alpha at the top of his game. There is nothing weak about not marrying a woman you're in a loving relationship if you don't want to get married. If she doesn't like it, well, she can leave (same goes for the XYs, yes?). America operates off a beta culture, and in every coffee shop, yoga class and Apple Store exists a cute little beta pet for the marriage-inclined single gal whose eggs are getting brittle to carouse, caress, cajole and conquer. It's pretty easy, really – just listen to their silly tastes and faddish political causes and – ta-da! – you have yourself a husband who won't cheat or talk back, who will only demand bi-monthly intercourse and who would never, ever look at the pron on the interwebs.
Seriously Crowder – did your girlfriend/wife put you up to that? It's painful to watch a man emasculate himself in print. Marriage is great, but there's very little poonish about not wanting to take part.
Well said Steven! Thought I have to say that for married guys, the first thing that goes through his mind when a cuter, younger babe approaches him will inevitably be, “CRAP!, I’m married!”
Well said Steven! Though I have to say that for married guys, the first thing that goes through his mind when a cuter, younger babe approaches him will inevitably be, “CRAP!, I’m married!”
Steven you are such a straight talker! Love this, and I have a daughter I would like to introduce you to! If you like redheads who are smart and beautiful, let me know.
Exactly. It is confidence and being a real man that we're attracted to. We don't want a cocky guy (or at least I don't) but we want someone who is confident in who he is as a person and is not afraid.
Well good news! If it's broken in America right now then it will be getting a bail out in the next four years! Cash for Proposal Clunkers 2010!!
Beautifully said Steven.
Women need more masculine role models. These cheap versions of the male species look sallow and sickly next to real men. Glad you are out there.
Now go forth and multiply…more men like yourself. I have no idea how to achieve that. But the world of single women will be eternally grateful. We'll bake for you or sew a button on or something.
As long as you're not in California or Florida the chances are that she won't take more than half of everything. (I believe in California it's the law that everyone splits everything equally.) I know more personal situations where the male comes out financially better than his ex-wife. It's especially common that the male barely even sends child support. My uncle did get the bad end of the deal in a divorce but that was because he wanted it to be over and done with and didn't hire a good lawyer that would help fight for him.
Why is marriage good? Because dating sucks! That "new thing" feeling gets old really fast, especially when one of you accidentally farts in front of the other for the first time. I remember in college, when my girlfriend (wife now) was over, I would walk down to the bathroom everytime I had to fart, which was a lot with all the beer I drank. She thought I had such a weak bladder until I told her why I kept going. Fast forward to the present – it's nice to just let one go and still be a perfect gentleman by simply advising her to stay away for a minute.
Oh, and another reason dating sucks…condoms.
I don't know about that – it was Ryan O'Neal right? The d-bag who knocked one kid's teeth out with a baseball bat, did drugs with his son with Fawcett, (who is still in jail) and then hit on his daughter Tatum at the funeral for Farrah? I think it probably occurred to him that he was going to be left out of the will, (as I recall, he was) and would have no claim to her money. Hate to be cynical – but that man is a lizard.
HA! is it me or is tail thrown at you a lot more now that you're married? It's like a wedding ring is a huge sex symbol…if I had know that before I would have worn one when I was single.
And I thought I had a deep thought! Way to ruin it.
I like those that insist that 'it's just a piece of paper.' Well if that's true, just sign it. After all, it's 'just a piece of paper.'
Chris Rock pointed this out. Apparently, you get all kinds of weird phone calls from old girlfriends after you're married.
but because you aren't married doesn't mean you are simply "dating". having children, living together, being fully committed can occur without marriage. which in turn means condoms aren't necessary also!
it's not the exes, it's coworkers. and it just gets worse/better(?) once they know you have a kid.
Marriage is not a game, it took me a couple times to get it right.
Normally, the stuff here on BH is spot-on, but reading Crowder's thing did make me very skeptical of what he is proposing. Granted, I'm no hedonist and I do want to see America survive and thrive yet more, but all the stuff I've been reading about modern marriage makes me more than a little afraid to start a family…
I don't knock those who sacrifice, nor do I knock the devoted husband (unlike Roissy), but I do hold out hope nonetheless. I'll have to choose my mate carefully — and get a stronger backbone!
Marriage is a commitment and a daily one at that. With all due respect for your opinion, I differ as I and my boyfriend were not "marriage-minded" until 12 years after being in the relationship, which included cohabitation and sharing financial responsibilities. We wed very happily when we both were ready. Ten years later, still happy and still together. At the end of the day, these celebrities are choosing their paths in life… I don't really think that these girls are getting conned, particularly if they choose to stay where they are and they are BIG girls too. Besides, how many times did Liz Taylor marry????
So true! It's a holy institution and has been trampled on because of the "G" word…you know God. Good blog.
Hmmmm, care to spread it around a bit David? Although it's cute to typify the male mind as "disgusting" there're probably some decent reasons that some of us aren't putting on the Nike's to run down the aisle and find our girls there.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the potential mate pool has changed from back when marriage was the Rule instead of the Exception. Think about it, in the old days you settled down and made a home and family together. Both sexes new what was expected and required of them when it came to familial responsibilites. Now, however, both sexes have had their roles so "redefined" that nobody has any idea which way is up. And I'll give you a clue, there haven't been too many men in the last 50+ years marching about with sandwich signs and burning bra's to show their new found "freedom".
For the record, I'm for marriage as an institution but let's have a little Honesty here! Calling the male mind disgusting is at least (half) right but if we take a close look at it there's more than enough blame to sprea about to BOTH sexes.
It's because you have already proven you are "the marrying kind"!
When it comes to Hollywood , remember the whole "beard" phenomenon: het females dating/marrying gay men to "protect them" from anti-gay …stuff. H-wood gals LOVE this because they have someone to help pick their wedding dress, carry their shopping bags , and give them makeovers. If he complains, she can threaten to out him to America. [This phenomenon also exists in the real world. Gay bars in Chicago are filled with 20something chicks in black mini-dresses shopping for a new pet gay.]
Gay guys in H-wood and elsewhere: GROW A PAIR!!!!!!! You don't need to marry a female to feel "fulfilled!!!!!
"I don’t care how much of a “strong, independent woman” you are; all little girls dream of their perfect wedding day."
I agree with that statement 110%. I'm living proof..I lived with my ex for 11 years and acted like it was Ok and that it didn't bother me, the truth was that it DID bother me and after a time you find yourself turning into a person that you don't want to be. I would NEVER EVER do that again. If a man doesn't want to marry a woman and only wants to "live" with her then he's not worth having IMO and my ex turned out not to be worth having, but I already knew that after the first 5 years.
These guys are just another piece of the secular puzzle that eventually reorders American society—-for the worse.
Out-of -wedlock births continue to rise and are skyrocketing in the African-American community, what is it now?
70% 75%? is that high, 60%.
Whichever, we're skidding down the road to a complete societal breakdown; luckily we'll have "Obamacare" to see us through!
These guys are just another piece of the secular puzzle that eventually reorders American society—-for the worse.
Out-of -wedlock births continue to rise and are skyrocketing in the African-American community, what is it now?
70% 75%? is that high, 60%?
Whichever, we're skidding down the road to a complete societal breakdown; luckily we'll have "Obamacare" to see us through!
Its funny to me that 1: you assume women are convinced into living together, and 2: that you sit and wait around for a proposal. ____This is all my opinion, obviously, and we are all entitled to our own, but i can't imagine being in a relationship where I waited and waited for a proposal, if i felt we were meant to be married and i wanted to get married, i'd talk to him about it, or propose myself (I know, i'm an awful woman who has been fooled by society into thinking i can make choices and decisions by myself without the approval of the man in my life). but not being married doesn't always mean a half-hearted commitment, IMHO
I take a bit more Objectivist approach to love… relationships are among the most selfish things human beings engage in. I do not agree that one should necessarily put the needs of a partner before their own- I think that it should bring distinct and utterly selfish pleasure to see your partner happy! Sometimes the "price" to see that happiness means sacrificing something else, but that's part of the exchange.
In other words, if you don't think it's worth it to give up something to see your partner happy, than are you really in love?
But its not always the guy who is putting off the wedding or engagement! I personally live with my boyfriend of 6 years. I love him, he loves me. But at this point in our lives we are not concerned with getting married, me more so than him. I think it has to do with my upbringing and what i've seen happen to marriages. but the point is, it is not always the guy who is holding off on marriage!
Sure you can do that..
and a Ice Cream man can pull you over and give you a speeding ticket.
The fact that he does it don't mean squat…….
He has no AUTHORITY and never will !!!!!
FYI – it is not only women who want to get married. We do not all have to snare or trick or coerce men to marry. Some guys (like mine – I just quizzed him) get married because they have found the one for them, they knew they would be together forever and wanted to make it legal. He said he did not want to have to be constantly defining our relationship to others and to each other. Plus – if you are having kids, they deserve the most solid foundation possible. That is done the old fashioned way… marrying.
I would say he was more of the marrying type than I was. I never played house. Never. I was never declaring I would not marry, but I was not actively searching it out. That said, if someone I was in a long term relationship with told me he did not want to be married I would be insulted and pissed enough to leave. I am not good enough to marry? Anyone worth their salt would be insulted. Ditto that for guys.
So you say.
So your saying this is impossible?(I'm asking, because i'm slightly confused as to what you are implying) assuming that is what your saying, you think that couples that aren't married can't be in a commited relationship, but that like magic when a wedding occurs he is a changed man and is capable of such a feat? If a man can't do it prior to being married, what makes you think he could after?
Young, inexperienced girls or hopelessly stupid women like jerks. Women are attracted to confidence.
Well if that isn't the sweetest statement.
so I do…
What you are seeing in the grocery is the women sending the man out to get stuff in order to get out of her hair. My husband likes to go to the grocery store with me. He drives me crazy. So I make a list ahead of time and when we get there and he starts trying to throw junk into the cart or asking what I am buying something for (grrr) I whip out my list. It includes meat or fish (which he loves to pick), juice, bread and veggies or fruit and something on sale. It makes him run to all corners of the store and he gets the pleasure of getting a bargain. Every once in a while he trots back with a giant slab of beef. GIANT…. and he has such a smile on his face. Hmmm… maybe he is hunting. Lazy hunting.
Love is a CHOICE not a feeling. Feelings come and go in ANY relationship. The real man is the one who honors his commitments and chooses to love his wife everyday. The real wimps are the guys who are off to the next girl as soon as it gets a bit boring. They have no clue how to sustain a relationship.. but they call it being studly… what a laugh.
A man who loves and respects his wife will get it back from her 10 fold.
Yes, their are some nutty women out there.. and I guarantee she is like she is because of an absent, inattentive or abusive father. Men have dropped the ball for decades now. We need to be men again and take back our families.
I have not heard that expression in a long time! Made me chuckle. God forbid you should have expectations, boundaries and self respect! Yep. men with a backbone. Can't imagine marrying a fiberless wuss.
I don't know your situation so I can't comment on that. But I have seen this play out first hand time and time again. I was at a wedding not too long ago and got into a conversation with a woman who has been with her boyfriend for 14 years and it really, really bugged her that she wasn't married. They live together so there's no incentive to get married and he's certainly in no rush.
I'm sure a lot of women convince themselves that they want to just live with the guy, but I find it awfully hard to believe that they're not pining away for a ring or feeling inadequate when their friends get proposed to. Frankly, I think it's a cop-out to say I want this too! or I'll be the one to propose…. I've rarely seen the living together scenario end up well, no matter how many protests I hear to the contrary. Not only that, but statistics show (http://marriage.rutgers.edu/) that cohabitation before marriage has a higher risk of divorce. Seems like a poor option to me.
Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that marriage means that the man in your life is making any decisions for you– that's just a bunch of feminist garbage.
Oh make me laugh!
Yes. Farting freedom thru marriage!
I am still laughing at your advisory. I am sure she appreciates that!
The present cultural moral standards as presented by the United States Entertainment Industry notwithstanding, cultures and civilizations who have lasted more than 500 years have been based on a strong familial structure as a means of societal stability.
That being said, feminists generally tend to treat historical facts subjectively, inserting such idioms as 'men always ___ (insert personal wounding from a male here)'. They forget that in Roman, Egyptian and other cultures women were merchants and owners of land, as well as ruling authorities.
Ancient mesoamerican cultures up to 1800's hispanic cultures treated women's parts of the family as important as the males. North American feminists, who frequently alter historical facts and treat history as a pick-and-choose of the atrocities commited toward women forget that history is fluid and has multiple contexts.
The feminists to which I refer are not possibly a majority but the fringe who have no psychological hinderance in fabricating alterations of established historical fact.
That being said, many of the fringe inhabit Hollywood. These same fringe elements who not only want justice but in multiple lectures call for a destruction of the male gender and influence. Unfortunately their husbands seem to have a lot of money to give them the influential jobs they wish.
I knew two strong feminists; one was for equality and respected both men and women. The other, however, felt it was her moral right to 'take vengeance' on any man she came across.
These attitudes have soured the stomachs of many, and they view marriage as bondage. Unfortunately, they are a small psychologically unstable few who cannot have normal human interaction at all and tend to have altered or distorted views of men either by choice or by past emotional traumas.
So basically Steven, you are correct, and I know many feminists who are married and love the equal relationship they share with their husbands and their husbands love and respect them as much as the wives do them. They also view marriage as an ultimate statement to their commitment to each other and a public declaration of that and are fully aware of their public status as a married person, and love every second of it.
I'm sorry. Didn't mean to burst your bubble.
Yeah – Crowder is proposing what I would call the RomCom Ultimatum: you're a terrible man if you don't marry your girl, even if you don't want to get married (see also: He's Just Not That Into You, which I actually enjoyed). As someone who is a hedonist, I'd say if you want to get married, well, get married. But don't do it because you owe it to anyone – unless you've had a kiddo out of the marital bonds, you owe no one nothing. Once you've fathered a child, well, buck up kidoo, because the fiddler must be paid and you're not exempt.
I think if it bugged her, she should have talked to him about it. I do think if it is really important to one of the people involved, then either they will get married, or should move on, as they don't have the same goals.
I however, and my boyfriend, would rather spend money that we would spend on a wedding, on other things, like how we went and lived in paris last year and backpacked through europe. weddings and rings aren't cheap, and there are other things we are more interested in doing at this point in our lives. it doesn't mean we aren't commited to each other.
Also, i didn't say that getting married meant he was making decisions for me, what i meant was waiting for him for years, as opposed toeither doing it myself, or getting out if marriage was what i really wanted. I'm not anti-marriage, but i do think it is possible to be commited without a wedding certificate.
The RomCom Ultimatum…someone ought to make that into a movie.
The RomCom Ultimatum…someone ought to make that into a movie. Of course, it would need to be preceded by "The RomCom Identity" and "The RomCom Supremacy."
Lazy Hunting.
That's funny!
Unfortunately we are surrounded by a culture that not only accepts but enables the "man-child". I agree that this is due, in part, to the ignorant Megan Foxs of the world. However, it is also due to the feminazis who keep men's cojones in a jar on their nightstand.
Moreover, marriages where the couple lived together before the wedding are almost twice as likely to end in divorce than marriages where the couple waited until after the ceremony to shack up and play house.
I shacked up twice before I was married. I said all that crap about not needing a piece of paper too. You're right it's bunk. Not only that, but a big part of me feels dirty and straight up foolish about that period in my life now. And that just ticks me off. Bastards.
But I take exception to the idea about us wanting a magical wedding day. It's more about security, validation and respect. I know I might be in the minority, but I saw my wedding as a nuisance in order to be married.
On the other hand, I'm so glad that construction worker wouldn't marry me now. The economy… I mean karma's a bitch.
Exactly.
Steven,
You're going to make an excellent husband! You seem to possess a strong desire to place your wife's needs before yours and I pray that God will lead you to a woman who places yours before hers!
Thanks for giving us something to keep hoping for!
AND, if you haven't found her in a few years, let me know!
I also think it has something to do with the fact that since she was literally on her deathbed, there was absolutely no risk involved with proposing. At the very most, they'd have been married a few months. Anybody can commit to anything for three months, as long as there's an end in sight.
I laughed out loud. Saying "LOL" just didn't "cut" it. I've been married so long I can't even remember when the old man DIDN'T let one go at will, although he never has to "advise" me to stay away, because like a large firework, you hear the BOOM before you see the smoke and sparkles. Strangely though, he's a hypocrite about it though, because women are not supposed to be "heard", much less "smelled". Too indelicate. Apparently, we're supposed to fart into lavender-scented hankies. Marriage has been great to me – even WITH the double-standard on methane emissions. Dating DOES suck! I hope and pray never to be there again.
Thank you, Steven, I love you. You renew my faith in the young men around me. All my life I've been one of the boys, athlete, video gamer, computer geek. I've always been the handyman type because stuff needed done at home and my father was away working long hours. I can fix almost anything home or automotive, but I can cook, clean, I love kids and want to add to the overpopulation issue. I'm the type people expect to be a feminazi, but I'm looking for a man, just not the hyperestrogenated guys I see a lot around me. I want that band on my hand. It's not just Hollywood men and women, it's men and women all around me in Ohio, too.
P.S. I sent in my desire to fill that open wife position but haven't heard back, what's the hold-up? ;D
I gotta add here that "women's lib" shares a whole lotta blame for this phenom.
well then its too late for me and my boyfriend, right? we may as well end the charade now! no matter that we've been together years!
He's saying that just because you do it doesn't mean it's a legal committment. It has no authority, and you and your children have no automatic protection under the law. Just because you say it's the same doesn't mean it actually IS the same. There are a lot of differences between living together and being married, and while a lot of them are emotional, a lot of them are law-binding.
I got the impression while talking to her that he'd been promising her that they'd get married for awhile but kept dragging his feet.
I agree that there are better ways to spend your money than on a big wedding– yet one can get married in front of a judge rather cheaply.
That said– if you're happy that's all that matters. If you don't feel as if you're compromising anything and you're making the right choice for you then you really don't have to justify anything. I've simply known too many women who haven't been happy with the same situation. I knew it wasn't right for me. I had a boyfriend try to talk me into a living-together situation (which is why I stated that no woman should allow a man to convince her to live together) and it was very clear to me at that point that he was trying to dodge a more serious commitment. We didn't last much longer and I've never regretted moving on from that relationship.
Thanks for the underscore!!
P.S. I have no idea what your personal description means???
So if you asked him to marry and he said "no" or hemmed and hawed what would you do? How would you feel?
I smiled a little bit reading the bit about spending money elsewhere and weddings being expensive. I think I have sniffed out self delusion. Marriage certificates are what – 20 bucks? My husband and I got married in his back yard, his brother catered the dinner (colossal stone crabs, filets…YUM, his mom married us and I got a white dress from The Limited. We spent a fortune on liquor, but all of our friends are freaking drunks. We invited family and a few close friends. Best wedding EVER. We went to Paris for honeymoon. See? Travel. Simple wedding.
So… come now. I wonder if you will have a heart to heart with yourself when you get it into your head that you want children. Or will that be breezy too? LOL Oh yeah, kids aint cheap – so maybe better hold off on the expensive nuptials!
Don't be mad. Sometimes it takes an anonymous little troll to point out the obvious.
So unfair
Wow!
Best thing said here all night!
Your wife/future wife is/will be a very lucky woman!
HA! just give him a Dutch Oven and tell him they'll keep coming until he loosens up.
I'm surprised there's not much discussion about the religious aspect to marriage here. My husband and I agree that our marriage vows were made to each other, certainly, but also made to God, Himself. It's nice to know that when those tough times roll around and I'm not my husband's favorite person, there's something stronger than his love for me that binds us. We both know we have someone else to answer to, eventually! I don't know that you can get that kind of security on a mere promise, no matter how "committed" the other person seems.
These days, no one (men and women alike) wants to be held accountable to anyone, whether it be a spouse or God. In my book, the "manly man" is the one who is God-fearing and adheres to a stricter moral code than the moral relativism running rampant in Hollywood today.
Out of wedlock births are growing among all races. I'm one of the few people in my extended family that had a kid AFTER I got married.
Sometimes it just depends on the guy, and his friends. As a guy, you don't want to be the first to get married or the last, because in either instance you become somewhat of a loner.
I don't follow Crowder's logic. Men should be more manly. According to Crowder, the way to achieve this is to submit to their girlfriends every desire, even if it's the last thing men want for themselves.
That is backwards logic. If a man doesn't want to be married, he shouldn't get married. Forcing yourself into an unwanted marriage is setting yourself (and your entire marriage) up for disaster. If a man doesn't want to get married and a woman wants to, there is a simple solution: split up. Some people are not compatible.
Well said. I certainly didn't have to talk my husband into getting married. We knew early on we were right for each other and it fell into place easily after that. And like you said, having kids out of wedlock just wasn't an option. I think that if you have the same goals as your mate, the same values, marriage doesn't feel like an unwanted commitment.
There is two things in this. One is remember when Brad Pittttttt said he won't get married unless "everybody" could get married, meaning unless the world accepts his twisted views on accepting homosexuality and homosexual marriage then he's going to DENY THE WORLD the splendor of him being married? Maybe he should say something more respectable like: "I won't kiss a woman" or "I won't make over $20,000 a year," or "I won't have sex" until the works accepts his perverted beliefs. In reality he's a bugger who left his wife for some other tail. In essence: a jackass.
Also remember a lot of guys without their act together have encountered the scum-woman who uses a man for every emotional need she has, but never lets him get closer. It's a learning experience for him that devastates him, and in many cases, turns them off from marriage all together. "Let's just be friends, but please spend 98% of your time favoring me." There's a few guys that have given up because of that.
However the article is very excellent, and I agree with it fully.
Yeah..what she said……
From what I've heard, it should be the opposite — men should be the dominant ones, since that is what turns a woman on. Perhaps more obviously patriarchal males would have success in marriage.
Yes, I know that happens in some situations. And I'm sure it is unfair in most. But it also happens that the wife is financially ruined. And I dare say that's the more common scenario. But I'll say again… no one really wins in divorce. And regardless of who gets more money, the kids always suffer the most!
I'm wondering what your story is?
Dr. Laura makes points like this all the time (to women as well as men). Absolutly guys shouldnt be playing the field while misleading the women theyre with that they are serious. Thats a big no no. Also the flip side to that coin is that women should put their wedding day fantasies aside when all indications are that the guy they are with isnt going to marry them. But its completly different once youre married. Youre in a commited relationship. If there are hard times, you have stick with that commitment. Usually, that means changing what your expectations are from your spouse.
I have no personal stories of divorce, but I have read a lot of Pick-Up Artist blogs (starting with Roissy) that suggest that marriage will simply lead to a "divorce-theft bonanza."
I eventually hope to marry, but I'm in no hurry; I've got plenty of time.
Most of those relationships had been together for years before they got married, too. The fact that you're relying on statistics to avoid a true committment says more about you and your relationship than I think you'd like to admit.
That's hilarious…I'll have to try that on the wife next time we go to Home Depot…And I'm never going with her to the grocery store again.
Speaking of Brad Pitt, when he first married Jennifer Aniston, they both loudly and frequently proclaimed that they didn't view marriage as being a "forever" type of committment, and that they would only stay married for as long as things were working well between them. It's no surprise, then, with that type of attitude, their marriage only lasted a few years. It's also no surprise that the interviewers were falling all over themselves to congratulate them on being so "forward-thinking" and "realistic" in their approach to marriage.
It's funny how there's always a cheap counterfeit to everything that God offers us, isn't it?
Good Lord, if I had known how HARD marriage was going to be I never would have done it! With that being said I think people these days just want an easy out; no one wants to work for things anymore. People who refuse to get married want the option of just "walking away" when things get hard, no red tape, no lawyers, just a clean break. That is all fine and dandy except that isn't how it works in the real world. With people having children out of wedlock (and before you go thinking I am judging – I am one of those people) you don't just get to walk away when things o bad, it becomes messy and the legal waters get murky. Women that have children and don't marry the father or simply combine assets need to know the legal ramifications of what would happen if you were to split. No one likes being left out in the cold….
"It's funny how there's always a cheap counterfeit to everything that God offers us, isn't it?"
cynical, funny, and most of all true
i wasn't actually using stats except in Jest
Whenever a female aquaintance of mine (romantic or otherwise) begins to wistfully speak of desire to marry, my response is always the same: I ask her to look deep inside herself and ask, honestly, if she truly desires a MARRIAGE… or "just" a WEDDING
I regard the notion of women as "natural nest-ers" to be demonstrably true, but like all behaviors it's not 100% garaunteed and it can be reworked/evolved-out-of as the species progresses. Most of our harder-wired "gender roles" are tied to survival needs, and some of the shifts you've seen there over "recent" decades have had to do with our continued shift into a technological society where physical strength matters less and less.
(continued)
(continued)
My personal read of the situation is that marriage-as-we-know-it-today will probably all-but cease to be within most of our lifetimes – i.e. it will go from a religious ritual with a stigma attached to not engaging in it to a "fun thing" done mostly out of tradition and sentiment; with "open"/polyamorous marriage ("this is my wife, this is our girlfriend," etc) becoming so common as to not even need a seperate name for itself. Doesn't sound so bad to me…
"I ask her to look deep inside herself and ask, honestly, if she truly desires a MARRIAGE… or "just" a WEDDING
"
*High five* Awesome.
Yeah, what Crowder is suggesting couldn't be less manly.
I don't necessairly believe men should be controlling or domineering over their wives or girlfriends, but to concede to their every wish and desire isn't any better. A relationship consists of two people with wants and needs. For either one of them to forgo their wants for their partner isn't very good. If it's what movie to watch that night or where to order in food from, fine, but we're talking about a huge life-long committment here. For a man to enter into a marriage not because he wants one, but because his wife wants one, is the essence of being "whipped", or whatever the term is now. And it probably won't work out well. If they both want polar oppposites so badly, the best is probably to end the relationship and move on.
Oh, but wait! Wouldn't you say that marriage in this country is broken? Divorces pay handsomely for the wife…by taking away everything the husband has earned. Granted, I've never been married, but from what I've been hearing, modern marriage isn't a good thing at all for men. To be honest, I do want to see things improve, but keep in mind the truism that women like jerks, which most married guys aren't. (Then again, they could be attracted to the jerk's overweening confidence and not his antisocial attitudes…)
I hope I'm wrong (about marriages), but chances are I'm not.
Woman "nest" Men "hunt" Next time you are in a store, watch the couples. The men go out and find stuff, (alone) then bring it back to their wife. We are different for a reason, however we can control these impulses.
Lead the way! And take other men along with you. This blog is smile worthy….. Praise Jesus…. :]
Marriage is a commitment…..
Something that most Hollywood leading men would not know anything about…..
Of course there were men like Jimmy Stewart, Paul Newman and Henry Fonda…..
The turd heads you mentioned wouldn't be able to act like a real man if their life depended on it.
As soon as "Selfishness" enters into the equation….game over man
And selfishness is the rule of law in Hollywood.
My wife is not near as slim as the day I married her, a few more gray hairs, and a lot more wrinkles, but after
25 years she is the most dearest thing to me on the planet.
I absolutely love this entry because it is the TRUTH! I feel like printing this out and handing it out to all of the wimpy men I know who refuse to see that marriage is true commitment. Women want security and security is not coming home to a man who refuses to seal the deal.
I personally think that commitment and bravery (to stand against society's norm) in a man is sexy…but maybe that's just me? (Although I highly doubt it…)
As far as Megan Fox I personally think she's saying that in an attempt to convince herself that she's not the marrying type.
Gene Simmons also is one who hasn't married his long time girlfriend and they have been together for YEARS.
[...] Lonewolf Diaries: Hollywood Men, Grow a Pair and Marry the Dame! This entry is filed under America – Blogs, Big Hollywood. You can follow any responses to this [...]
Hmm…I think that Johnny Depp is a douche without even the need to attend any weddings. But that's just me being snarky.
Great post, and oh so true. Only way to improve the post is to underscore the need for men (and women) to STAY committed after marriage. Anyone can get married; remaining faithful is what differentiates the men from the boys.
But how do you explain the unfair divorce laws that allow a wife to financially ruin her husband with alimony or somesuch? No one here seems to want to talk about that. I'm wondering about the age of some of the people here.
[...] on how, deep down, women really want to spend two years of their lives working full-time while planning a multi-day party for two [...]
The problem with "it's just a piece of paper, just sign it" is that is when your marriage becomes a business arrangement and the scum sucking lawyers enter the marriage. Having said that, I am happily married but I have never liked the legal ramifications of tying the knot.
If you can't understand that you do owe a permanent commitment (marriage) to your girl, then you shouldn't be in a relationship. It's not all about you. Man up and make the commitment.
Yeah, Steve, you're right. Brad Pitt should get married again. He so obviously would make a great husband this time. As for Angelina, maybe she learned her lesson about marrying men who cheated on their fiance and wife with her. I would think Billy Bob would be enough to swear a woman off marriage forever. Oh, wait. He's a bad example since he's been married, what?, 5 times?
Btw, I believe Kurt Russell has been quoted many times over the years saying it's Goldie who refuses to marry him. Not the other way around.
Yeah, I've peaked in on Roissy before. My advice to you, young man (in all sincerity, I'm not being condescending) is… don't take any advice from Roissy!
As has been pointed out before, by and large, it is women who suffer financially in divorce. You really need to take a look at the statistics before you freak out over a few scare stories. If the idea of suffering financially in a divorce scares you off marriage, then you need to plan on living your life without any longterm relationships and children. It's not fair to your girlfriend to monopolize her affections without the security of marriage, and it is definitely not fair to any children who are born into such a relationship. Is that really what you want?
The guy has to open his legs and bear em in order for the woman to store them in her jar.
In my experience, not being the "marrying type" always meant: "I don't want to marry you."
It's funny how many "not marrying" types end up getting married to someone when they meet the sweet little love of their lives.
Like I said, this is just what I have observed in non-Hollywood life. For a lot of these Hollywood guys, I think it comes down to material possessions. Like someone said, California divides it up 50/50. Again, in my experience, material possessions don't mean diddly squat when you have met the love of your life.
Two cents.
In my experience, not being the "marrying type" always meant: "I don't want to marry you."
It's funny how many "not marrying" types end up getting married to someone when they meet the sweet little loves of their life.
Like I said, this is just what I have observed in non-Hollywood life. For a lot of these Hollywood guys, I think it comes down to material possessions. Like someone said, California divides it up 50/50. Again, in my experience, material possessions don't mean diddly squat when you have met the love of your life.
Two cents.
Um…Marry me? I like your column
Mr. Crowder, I have your back and I applaud you for your stand. A review of Hollywood and the movie industry reveals that the destruction of the family is a long sought goal which began in the 1920's. The deliberate pursuit of this moral regression is the hallmark of the communist philosophy. Individuals of this political persuasion, hell-bent on promoting this perverse cause, declared in the 1920's that in order to take the United States, it was necessary to destroy the family. In order to destroy the family, it was necessary to destroy the father. The means to this end was and remains, Hollywood.
One word D-I-V-O-R-C-E
Marriage ruined my relationship, Ex & I lived together for 14 years, marriage lasted 3.
As to the Holy part
a. BS – plenty of non-Xian cultures had marriage before the was an Xian myth
b. 16% of American are Non-believers
c. 97% of Americans have premarital sex
d. average number of sex partners for hetero male is 8 in lifetime
Mr. Crowder, Thank you for your observations. You are a hero in our time. As an example of what this nation has lost, I attach a United States Supreme Court opinion from a more pure era:
The civil law, as well as nature herself, has always recognized a wide difference in the respective spheres and destinies of man and woman. Man is, or should be, woman’s protector and defender. The natural and proper timidity and delicacy which belongs to the female sex evidently unfits it for many of the occupations of civil life. The constitution of the family organization, which is founded in the divine ordinance, as well as in the nature of things, indicates the domestic sphere as that which properly belongs to the domain and functions of womanhood…. The paramount destiny and mission of woman are to fulfill the noble and benign offices of wife and mother. This is the law of the Creator. And the rules of civil society must be adapted to the general constitution of things, and cannot be based upon exceptional cases. (Bradwell v. Illinois, 1873)
True. How can you recognize a gay man in a grocery store? He doesn't have a cell phone in his ear.
I've been told it is because they think you are safe. They can flirt and flaunt and that is as far as it has to go.
I love you, Steven! Your posts are always dead on. Marriage is not for cowards, which almost all of Hollywood men are now. Marriage requires daily recommitment to your spouse and a complete decision that this relationship is where you want to be. Marriage is hard, even if you are totally and completely in love with your spouse. And that is too much work for the shallow cowards of Hollywood.
Marriage is an institution propagated by society. Society places so much pressure on young men and women to do the right thing and get married never questioning "why" or "who" just "you must". Marriage is not for everyone as proven by the %47 percent failure rate.
I like Brad Pitt's response to why he hasn't married Angelina Jolie yet – he says "We'll get married when everyone else can get married."
Somebody tell that idiot that saying something like that doesn't count if he's ALREADY BEEN MARRIED. They talk about how meaningless marriage is but then they go nuts telling people to let gays get married. Make a choice already, is it meaningless or not?
Yay, spy games! Me too! (Actually, it was more Power Rangers for me.) But I also liked house. Couldn't understand why the boys would rather pretend the house blew up than pretend we were cleaning it.
I actually love men who could fight for me, but don't need to do it. Kind of like the Fonz – he was rarely in fights because it was obvious he could kick anyone's ass!
Didn't see He's Just Not That Into You, but I wonder, if you were that into a woman and she wanted to get married (and she wasn't some b*tch out for your money), might you consider it?
If a man concedes to his wife's every wish, that wouldn't be much of a marriage. And if a guy is dating a gal who he doesn't want to marry, but who wants to marry him, why's he stringing her along? That's so unmanly. I agree that in the scenario you described it would be best to end the relationship and move on… to someone he'd actually want to marry.
I will disagree. Women are attracted to what they learned a man should be by her parents. The influence a father has on their daughters is monumental. Also, how a woman is treated by her husband, right or wrong, she will determine that is what is normal and pass that along to her daughter. Yes, these things can be overcome but it has to be recognized first and then there has to be a willingness to change.
Hollywood men seem to treat a relationship with a woman like they treat their commitment with their work. They commit to a role for a movie for 6, 12, 18 mos. then they focus on the next one. Seems like they treat women the same way.
My brother and his friends refused to play house but they would let me play shoot-em ups, kick the can and battleship~ hey, I took what I could get!
My kids loved ( and played) Power Rangers! Eldest girl and boy still talk about it!
I've read several posts that suggest that marriage is a societal thing. Actually, we have an inate desire to be paired with someone. Marriage represents the 100% commitmnet that is required for a genuine relationship. Anything less is roommates that have sex. This allows for each person to remain self-centered live their own life. The issue is that everyone rushed to fulfill that yearning before getting right with themselves. If you can't be alone with yourself, who would want to be with you? Also, being single allows you to focus on getting your life in order so when you do find the person you should be with, you bring assets instead of liabilities. This will also go a long way in you finding someone that does leave you unevenly yoked.
I've read several posts that suggest that marriage is a societal thing. Actually, we have an inate desire to be paired with someone. Marriage represents the 100% commitmnet that is required for a genuine relationship. Anything less is roommates that have sex. This allows for each person to remain self-centered live their own life. The issue is that everyone rushed to fulfill that yearning before getting right with themselves. If you can't be alone with yourself, who would want to be with you? Also, being single allows you to focus on getting your life in order so when you do find the person you should be with, you bring assets instead of liabilities. This will also go a long way in you finding someone that does not leave you unevenly yoked.
Well, to give him credit – he won't bleve in our bed if he can help it. He doesn't TRY to offend, so I, in turn, meet him halfway and respect his little idiosyncrasies. Always a compromise, always work, but always worth it.
Yep. And Shannon Tweed wants a ring BAD. I think their kids want them to marry as well. Gene needs to suck it up, and make it happen.
I remember watching the episode of "Family Jewels" when they went to a wedding in Vegas and she was BEGGING Gene to marry her. I think there have been a few episodes surrounding her trying to get him to marry her…
My husband proposed two days after we met. A ring immediately followed. Both our families thought we were crazy, but sometimes you just know. I never doubted. Contrast that with a previous proposal. Every time I put on the ring, I began to hyperventilate. I knew it wasn't going to happen and thank God it didn't.
I know. It's so pathetic. What is his problem?
Wedding rings aren't cheap, unless you're cheap like me and preferred to buy a QVC diamonique simulated diamond set in 14K gold (which cost about $100) and no one knows the difference and everyone oooohs and aaaahs about how beautiful and sparkly my wedding set is (even after 15 years). I refused to let my fiance (now husband) spend $10,000 or more on a diamond. And if I lose the diamond, I won't be heart-broken, because there are more and more beautiful rings to be had from QVC, HSN, and other places! We also went to the local courthouse and got married by the judge. I think it cost about $25. It was also the most wonderful, beautiful day of my life (until I had a baby <G>), and I don't regret not having a huge wedding with the white dress and all that. You don't have to spend a lot of dough on weddings and rings. But the commitment is the key. And nothing says commitment like a wedding certificate. If it's really not a sign of commitment, then just get one – it's really pretty cheap and easy – and see how much difference it makes in your life.
My wife's position, with which I concur, is that the woman should not lower herself to chase (in this case propose to) the man but should only date those men who want her enough to chase her. If he won't propose within a reasonable time, kick him to the curb. Why would a woman want to be with a "man" who doesn't have enough initiative or desire to make the proposal? It's not a question of a woman making choices for herself, but more of an "I don't come to you, you come to me" kind of thing. If the guy won't either fish or cut bait, as they say, she should cut the bait herself and move on. If that dog don't hunt, it's time to put him down.
Trust me, my wife is anything but weak willed. Quite the opposite.
My best friend and I played barbies – secret agent barbies. They were true ladies, though, they always made sure to take turns with her older brother's GI Joes when it came to who had to rescue who.
And yeah, I played a lot of shoot 'em up games with my cousin and other boys. I was the only girl invited to several birthday parties.
This is so true. I never cared about the wedding ceremony except that we said our vows before God. We just had a private ceremony with a minister.
I just wanted someone I could count on and love. It's working well so far and we're into our second decade.
Of course I would – I don't rule out marriage. My point is that men don't owe it to women to marry them, and men take a huge financial risk when getting married. Women take a risk as well, obvoiusly, especially those who stop working full-time.
Marriage as an institution serves the dual purpose of civilizing men and raising children, both healthy and admirable. However, once marriage became an eternal holiday season for DeBeers, it became debt to which men pay women. Marriage isn't an entitlement – I know I'm in the very small minority at BH on this, but the most miserable men I know – all in their late 20s to early 40s – were pressured into getting married by the wives they're now made miserable by.
And ultimately, Crowder may be sincere in his sentiment, but it remains emasculated, pandering and sad, and I like most of the man's work. (bonus – just got posted at HotAir).
Saving money is what private ceremonies are for. I had one, and my husband and I are no less committed. Not every wedding has to be a big, elaborate ceremony. With my migraines, trying to put something like that together would have been a nightmare for me, and the odds are that I would have been sick on our wedding day. That being said, had he wanted a big ceremony, I would have found a way to do it, but he didn't, we didn't, and although my mother was disappointed, it's really about what we want.
Sad sign of the times: Urging men to stand up and take the risk of committing himself to a woman and starting a family is seen as "emasculated." Sad, sad, sad. And completely backward.
If you aren't willing to marry her, maybe you just aren't that into her?
I think there's a difference between people who get married because they feel they should because society expects it, and people who get married because they really want to.
If you've been living together and you're getting married because you think it's the thing to do, then I'll bet that you're heading for trouble. But if you want that girl forever, then you're getting married because you want to, but I'd bet if you really wanted that girl, you would have gotten married long before you'd lived together for any length of time.
My husband and I knew we wanted to marry each other three months in formalized it about a year and half later when that desire to marry didn't waver.
I dunno L4L… my husband used to try to ditch me at Home Depot. He would drop me off at the paint or the garden center. But then he got wise to me. If left with time to think things through in silence, I come up with chores for him like staining the deck, installing kitchen cabinets (great work by the way honey – if you read this) or move giant plants around the yard to make room for yet another tree or bush. Now he holds my hand thru The Depot (smiles) and asks "Where ya gonna put that?" when I latch on to a beautiful Sally Holmes rose.
"And I'm never going with her to the grocery store again. "
— then my work here is done. ; )
I always thought it was the one NOT ogling the melons.
It took us three months to decide that we were right for each other after an intial couple of blind dates with each other.
There's a reason the word "mate" is used, and when you find the right one, it's definitely an apt description.
There's a difference between submitting to her every desire and considering her wishes before your own. I nearly always think about my husband's wants before I think about my own. It doesn't mean that I do every little thing he wants; it does mean that I stop and think about he'll feel about things before I decide what to do. He's the same way about me.
If both partners are attuned to their mates enough that a major decision you make isn't just made for you, but for both of you, then I think you understand more what Crowder is talking. I'm not just me, but I am to a certain extent "me and him." I can be selfish about the small things, but when it comes to important stuff, I find I jsut can't be selfish anymore.
My husband and I have reached quasi detente at the mall. I head to Nordstroms, he goes to the bar at McCormick and Schmicks. At Target he goes to electronics. Walmart – the mag rack to look at Sports Illustrated. We too stick like glue at garage sales. He likes to tell the garage seller how people hacked off our coconuts, drug ruts in the pearock with the furniture and ran over his post box during our one and only garage sale. When they politely gasp in disbelief, I am there to certify that it did indeed happen.
While I have to disagree that every girl dreams about her wedding and plays house (I dreamed about my husband and got in trouble once for turning a broom into a gun and holding up the rest of the family while I was supposed to be playing house), I do agree that a true committment is one where marriage isn't an "option" but a "need" for the couple involved.
Sir, I take umbrage at your aspersions on the intelligence of hammers!
My grandparents married 2 days after meeting! I was engaged to a man before my husband. After I agreed I developed terrible hives (never had them before) and would throw up after a night out with him talking to people about our wedding or my being his fiance. It got so bad I went to the doctor. He said, maybe you should rethink marrying the Frenchman. I broke out in hives. I gave him his mom's ring back. No more hives or barfing. I assumed I was allergic to marriage.
At Mass this weekend they had the "Wives, be subject to your husbands" reading from St. Paul (Ephesians 5: 21 – 32). Everyone gets up in arms about what the wife is called to do but no one seems to register what the man is called to do. "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her". The man must "crucify himself", or sacrifice himself (and his desires) completely for the wife.
Obviously, for those of us who aren't saints both recommendations are a tall order, however, it is the model we should be striving for in a true marriage.
HRSG,
I'm 6'4" tall, 180 pounds, COMPLETELY agree with Crowder, and I absolutely love smart, and beautiful redheads. It strikes me, incidentally, how redundant that last bit is.
I'm not kidding, or exaggerating, on anything.
I have a bachelor's degree in political science, and am on my way into the military (I expect to be in Basic in under four months). I plan to earn an MBA while enlisted, and apply for OTS (Officer Training School) as soon as I have completed that goal. After a career as a military officer, my love of politics will have a better chance of taking concrete form — but never at the expense of my future wife or children. Some things are more important than America.
I am a Christian, a virgin, and a man who honors his father and mother for the sake of the joy that it brings them when I do. I will never show up at your house without you knowing that I'm coming; and I won't blow the horn when picking up your daughter for a date. I'll have her home 15 minutes before the curfew that you set, or call you with a really good reason as to why I'll be late. Should her safety be threatened when she is with me, you can be sure that I will show up with her at your house, safe and on time, or at a hospital with life-threatening injuries. When you entrust your daughter to my safekeeping — whether on a date, or later in marriage — I take that responsibility very seriously.
In fact, my history of behavior can shed some light on my trustworthiness. In college, I chose to be single. The reasons I chose to be single are myriad, but none more important than this: I chose to protect women from lesser men. I protected many innocent young women from boys (not men, boys) who would have taken advantage of them while they were heavily intoxicated — I figure, I can't stop them drinking, but I can provide security for them when they do. Sixteen women, all of whom I can still name, slept in peace on the night that I watched over them. None know my name, or that they were ever in danger — and that is exactly as I like it.
I daresay that we will never meet, nor will your daughter and I. But teach her to look for men like me. We're not altogether common, these days…but we're here. I am the man you always wanted her to bring home. I am the man you want to be with her when she is in danger. I am the standard, I am the man of her dreams — I am, simply, a man.
Look for me.
ok you got the point right stephen.. but youre railing against the wrong crowd for the most part..
to the depps and pitts out there.. the difference between love and marriage is more lawyers and paperwork
than any fairytale can handle.. it would take lawyers in the triple digits to parse together the assets, tangible and intangible of Brad and Angelina.. [ fyi.. in lawyer terms.. those cute adopted kids are tangible assets, in case of divorce..] its nearly a life-ending headache.. and im sure getting married with so much on the line is nearly a marriage-ending headache as well… after the first $20million marriage is more of a business deal than anything.
"Saving money" – oh, you touched a nerve there! Maybe someone here can enlighten me?
For years, I've been trying to figure out the rationale behind the sort of weddings where the families feel obligated to feed huge sit-down dinners to the guests who show up. (Is that a Yankee thing, maybe?)
In my experience, here in the South there's usually the church wedding and then a reception with wedding cake, something to drink, and sweet stuff plus maybe savory finger food if someone wants to get fancy. The venue can range from the church hall (with food provided by the ladies of the congregation) to the county club with catering, but honestly, in 60+ years of attending or taking part in weddings, I have never sat down for a meal at a wedding! Maybe it's a hangover from the years of poverty following the Civil War, I dunno. But the idea that weddings should cost as much as a house? Insanity! Guests at a wedding should be celebrating the event – not lining up for free food! (And that's my first rant of the day – go me!)
All of that stuff about divorce and feminism are cop-outs. Hollywood and Madison Avenue have sold the idea to men that marriage is burdensome, stifling, boring, and emasculating (while it has sold the idea that marriage is burdensome, stifling, and a form of enslavement to women). The sexual revolution with all of its detrius, i.e. abortion, shackin' up, no-fault divorce, etc. have benefitted men far more than women. Women, except for the trashy variety, have been hosed by the unraveling of traditional mores. Children even more so.
These leading men who won't marry are trying to have it both ways with the entertainment press and the not-so-thoughtful fangirls who gush over People or Us. They try to look all cuddly and lovable with their quasi committments, but at the same time keep their "unconventional" street cred by not getting married. Perhaps some of them who have been married before don't want to get burned again financially or emotionally and they figure making that final step would break the spell.
On the other hand, as John Lennon (of all people) once told Dick Cavett, nobody ever says divorce is just a sheet of paper.
My wife of 34 years (first marriage for both of us) made her dress. It was simple. She went with her two bridesmaids who purchased simple garden party dresses from a department store. Dresses that they could use for other parties. My best man wore his suit, as I did. My parents bought a flower arrangement and the liquor. My wife's sisters catered the reception. I hosted a dinner at my apartment, which I cooked, for her and my parents, and the bridal party. The sisters and brothers went out on the town and got stinking drunk.
See the trend here? Marriage is a family thing, not about money, but about a celebration of life and the future. It is a public commitment in front of family and peers to the health and wellbeing of your spouse.
Wow, you sound like an incredible cynic.
You are 100% right on this one. Studies show couples that live together before marriage have a HIGHER rate of divorce. The experts can't figure out why. One study I read theorized that maybe it's because women feel they are "auditioning" for the role of wife and once they land it, they change.
I can only speak for myself, but that's exactly what happened to me. Lived with my first husband before marriage. It was all "sure honey, whatever you want." Transferred out of state. Great! Chose the biggest dump of an apartment? If you like it, I like it. Then, after we were married, I let loose. Poor guy didn't know what hit him. Couldn't figure out why I was so unhappy all of a sudden.
Didn't make the same mistake the next time. Told this guy I'd move in when he was ready to commit. Got married last April. Best decision of my life.
Marriage is for real men. It takes a lot of self-sacrifice, patience, persistence.
And hearing this from a cutie like Steven Crowder makes this girl swoon already.
Crowder… ya big lug… Bulls-eye. As a veteran survivor of the Hollywood sex wars, I can attest to the utter, blind naked veracity of your words. The "hey, I'm not married" back-door-propped-open ticket to licentious behavior kept me in commitmentophobia for years — as the Hollywood community applauded the hip, evolved 'social awareness'. Societally, the world takes its cue from Hollywood…whose inhabitants consider themselves far above the requirements of convention. Arrogance — what a lovely encouragement to humanity. We reinvent the wheel…as we thumb our nose at God. Yes, women are the big losers in this charade, but men are diminished as well …as is, ultimately, society.
Seriously. We spent $100 on our wedding — and that is ONLY because my secretary insisted that I have a bouquet. I pulled a fancy dress (purchased years before for benefits and other dress up occasions), dragged a retired judge friend to my best friend's house (nice deck up in the LA hills), and did the deed. Oh yeah — I guess we spent another $100 for a one-night "honeymoon" at the Crescent. Five years and counting! Two kids and counting! We wouldn't have had it any other way. And we didn't move in together until about a month AFTER the wedding.
I don't know how old you are, but I wonder if you're simply not ready yet and you're feeling some pressure to "settle down" from family?
The reason I ask is that my husband has had several friends who have had the same attitude over the years only to have a change of heart either when they hit a certain age (closing in on 40) or meet the right girl. For the one's who don't meet a good woman, they seem to really struggle with loneliness and frustration now that most of the women their age have married and moved on. The dating scene now consists of young women they can't relate to or women who are too flaky to last in long-term relationships. But then, the guys who are unmarried by 40 are usually that way for a very good reason.
I think it's a huge mistake to think of marriage as an "alpha male" vs. "beta male" issue. That's just silly. A real man protects his family. A real man stands up and makes sure that in the case of illness or injury his mate doesn't have to prove the relationship so she can be with him in the hospital– or anything of that nature. Marriage isn't just about saying I won't screw around on you it's about protecting each other. I have a living will and I trust my husband more than anyone in the world to make sure that if anything happens to me, my wishes will be carried out– and I would do the same for him. Seems to me that your idea of marriage doesn't go beyond a very shallow interpretation.
OMG our husbands must be related! That is exactly how our trips to the grocery store are too!
I think you may be right. My brother lived with his ex-wife for 6 years before getting married. She seemed very much focused on the goal of getting married rather than thinking about the quality of the relationship and whether or not they should be married. She kept that house immaculate and worked her butt off to prove herself to my brother. They had the big wedding and two years later they were divorced. Ultimately I think it was the fact that they weren't on the same page regarding children that ended the marriage, but that issue got lost in the quest for a proposal.
Go ahead and encourage marriage if you like. Encourage men to consider their partner's feelings. But it's condescending to say that all women who who say they don't want to get married are either liars or the dupes of commitment-phobic men. If you really believe this, you might need to get out there and meet some more women. Not all girls grow up dreaming of their wedding day; not all women want to get married.
You wrote, "The first thing that goes through his mind when a cuter, younger babe approaches him will inevitably be, 'Hey, I’m not married!' Keep that in mind, ladies."
A man with integrity who has pledged his commitment to his significant other without legal marriage will honor that commitment. A married man without integrity will just think, "Hey, what my wife doesn't know won't hurt her." Any woman marrying a womanizer in an attempt to keep him faithful is in for a big disappointment.
100% right. I flatly refused to move in with my fiance before we married. Poor guy- he had to live with his folks! But hey, it was only for a few months.
Moreover, SQT, have you ever been to a wedding in which the couple live together? It's so lame! They wake up together that morning! WHAT??? Then they split, get ready and meet up at the alter later that day! And go back home when it's all done! AGHH! I've sat through both my husband's siblings weddings and they have both cohabitated with their spouses for 10+ years. The magic of a wedding for me is that two individuals come together to start a new life with eachother. When they've already lived together I think "so what?" Same sh– different day. Also, why give them a wedding gift? They already have a house full of stuff, they don't need a kitchenaid mixer or set of dishes. And another good point- your wedding doesn't have to be expensive or big- it's all your choice. Perhaps that gal's been watching WE TV a little too much eh?
Just hold out for the right girl! Don't believe the hype- there are plenty of women out there like myself who want a HUSBAND not a WEDDING! I asked for a modest little ring- just something as proof of engagment (i think it was about $300) we had a modest ceremony and it had been my life's mission to make him happy! Women like me do exsist! I put my husband's needs and wellbeing first, and suprise! He does the same for me. Once you find that, you'll change your tune. But you have to be patient and uncompromising.
Well said…truly well said !!!
You're too nice. My now husband ripped one right after he asked me to be his girlfriend. I did have second thoughts.
I'll be blunt: no it cannot. It is not and never will be the same. Being married is being fully commited.
After 11 years of marriage, our sex gets better and better! Because we appreciate each other and unselfishly strive to meet the needs of our spouse.
I've heard a saying, "There's a difference between a renter and a buyer." Marriage does mean something.
Re: Megan Fox…I'm willing to bet c.) that she has a terrible relationship with her father or her parents have a terrible relationship.
I'd rather have the house. I am a practical girl. If parents were smart, they would offer DPs on homes v big weddings. Having good shelter gets them one step closer to grand kids… and Mother of the Bride is not forced to wear that HID matronly dress!
we did ninja wars in our backyard. too much kung fu theater on Sundays.
Heh.
Maybe the trick for the guys is to find a girl who *didn't* play house.
Well, actually my sisters and I *did* and we made our brother play too, but that didn't happen nearly as often as we were playing viking raiders or lost island or something more adventurous. We even dug a Hogan's Heroes type escape tunnel behind the house.
yes, modern times has softened alot of my fellow knuckledraggers.
Men!
Seconded.
However, I do have doubts about the species "progressing" towards anything necessarily "better." While Moviebob is certainly speaking of evolution, he also implies that culture is like technology — it's getting better and better as time goes by. Not necessarily.
As for weddings, I think they cost too much.
I was going to post something similar. I had a good chuckle over the OP's second paragraph. Apparently grabbing some woman's crotch makes a man an alpha? Too funny.
I get the sense that no worthy woman would consider him for a long term relationship much less a crotch grab. But a man can dream.
Well said.
that sounds just like our wedding. And it was the second most wonderful day of my life (the first was the birth of our son). I did offer her Europe for the honeymoon, but she prefered Sturgis. Woman of my dreams.
I've been saying that for years! My husband can be in and out of the Mall in minutes. I need all day. LOL!
But actually, it's more like "hunting" and "foraging" as the men hunted and the women foraged near the cave for nuts and berries. It's also why men can handle directions that just state "go this many miles and turn left" or "go north on" and most women need "landmarks" to find their way.
Of course, heaven forbid you tell that to a feminazi! No, no, we're exactly the same! NOT!
That was Ryan's last ditch attempt to get her $6 million! Nothing romantic about that snake!
My sister lived a very long time with a man who was not the marrying type. I think she was hoping he'd change his mind. He did. When they split 7 years later he married a woman and had a baby with her.
My sister is still upset. If someone tells you there will be no marriage and you want that – go. Why waste time or as my brother sez – waste the pretty. There is no crime in wanting to be married and to have children under wedlock. I will never understand women casting that desire as less than ideal. Do they not appreciate security for their children?
It is funny how some of the spurned men here seem to believe that 50% of the possessions is too little for them and too much for her. Real prizes they.
Well, at least so far, I'm not part of that statistic. My husband and I lived together for 2 years before we got engaged and then married, but we already knew we were going to get married when we first started dating. We were waiting on his divorce being final (I'm not a homewrecker though.
We didn't start dating until he had already filed the papers; simple divorce, no kids, no assets; only took 6 months). Once that happened, he "officially" proposed and then we planned the wedding, etc. and got married. We've been married now for 10 years, have 2 beautiful daughters. We discussed and talked about pretty much everything and while "living together" otherwise conducted ourselves like a married couple.
If it doesn't work out for others, I think there are specific reasons that don't necessarily apply to everyone.
At my current age and physical condition, when I see a younger babe approaching me, the first thing I do is look behind me to see who she's really looking at.
beeeeeeeeeeeermmmmmmfffffffffff
dam nachos!
Excellent post! Spot On! It's easy to just jump in and make an emotional comment about the subject matter, but it's harder to actually think about what Crowder was saying. And the examples he used were people who have been together for 15, 20 years, and have kids together but still don't get married. We're not saying that you should ask every girl you date to marry her, but I think your intent should be clear to each other as soon as you've figured out what it is. Let's face it, I think most people knew they were going to marry the person they started dating within a fairly short period of time. And if you weren't, it's best to speak up and move on.
The problem with living together as an extended form of dating is that a person doesn't have the same standards for a date (fun to be with) as a marriage (want to live with forever.) And it is too easy to sort of "end up" living together with someone and spend years in a sort of comfortable place, without ever having actually decided or not if this is a forever person for you. And 10 years goes by and now you aren't 20… you're 30… and you're living with someone you aren't sure you even *want* to be married to and there are 10 years of dating people who might have been the one that you've *missed* and you don't know if you dare break up because what if you don't find someone?
Not a personal story… I got married young and have been for 22 years now… but it's a story I've heard over and over and over. And I think that this is something people are told, outright, works. And it doesn't. Nothing good will come from moving in with someone you aren't *sure* you want to live with forever knowing that they are *sure* that they want to live with you forever… and if you are sure, then there is no reason not to marry right off, because you *know*. Otherwise you're entwining your life and making an irrevocable investment, emotionally and financially, with someone you aren't committed to, who is not committed to you. How can any good come of that?
Exactly! My husband and I had to get that out of the way when we were dating since we both tend to be rather gassy. And Thank God we did! And thank God he doesn't hold a double standard about it.
I was never the dating type anyway – the head games, the preening, etc. Too stressful. I dated very little, but when I met my Prince Charming, I knew it was him b/c we were like lost best friends reuniting. Neither of us are perfect, but I can't figure out who else would put up with our idiosyncracies!
Hooray for cheap weddings. I have a small, sapphire engagement ring (no wedding band) which my husband paid for in cash. We had a reception with finger foods in our Church's hall (which was free).
Just a word of caution for the men out there. If your future wife won't marry without a big rock, keep moving— she won't be in it for the long haul.
Fascinating thread – I'm 34 btw. My point was and remains that men don't owe it to women to marry them. I have nothing against marriage, but this notion that women are owed it, especially considering the legal and financial ramifications for men, is ridiculous. My folks have been married for 44 years, so I know what a good marriage is. I know lots of happily married couples – none of the men were pressured or forced into it by the women. That is the point.
I don't see marriage as an alpha-beta thing – I see marrying a woman just because she wants to get married if the man does not an alpha-beta thing. Of the happily married men I know, none of them were pressured into it, none were given the "I'm leaving you if we don't make it official." Having been given that ultimatum myself a long time ago, I can say not caving on it was one of the most liberating decisions I'v made. Do I regret it? Not for a second? Do I miss the woman? Sure, on occasion, but not nearly so much as I've enjoyed my life since.
In their favor, they are alot smarter than nails.
Steven: this is the best thing you've written. I'll have to Google the article, but Kevin Costner (whom a Hollywood stuntman I used to know describes as "down-to-earth" and "very real") recently married his longtime girlfriend mentioning that he would be "diminishing her" by not committing to marriage. Great comment, I thought, from an actor I typically don't follow.
I used to play Lancelot Link: Secret Chimp with my friends.
(…do I get a thumbs-up for obscure tv references?)
Just like Jason Lee said in Mallrats: "Why buy the cow when you can have the sex for free?"
Seriously though – the guys in hollywood have no respect for women and therefore do what they do.
How ridiculous. These "Hollywood Men" you speak of are generally of high net worth. They stand to lose 1/2 of what they have and 1/3 of what they make. Males that think a little bit more with our brains have rightfully identified marriage as a scam–especially in California and New York due to community property laws. Naturally the women are disappointed, they can't get a free ride by banging rich dudes anymore. A tragedy.
Yeah, Marriage: What a good idea. Let's see, I surrender my freedom, my wealth (current and future) my time and get locked into a monogamous sexual relationship. In return I get to carry the preponderance of risk and liability in the case of divorce and, well, not much else. Women of my generation are bat-sh*t crazy. They don’t know what they want and they’ll torture you until they get it. All my married buddies come over to my place and complain about their wives. The most common lament: “She wasn’t like this when we were dating…” Thanks, I’ll pass on this puppet show.
What amazes me are the guys who want a b*tch… they want a made up, dressed up, sexy, party girl who gives out…
And then they marry her and suddenly it's all about how all women this generation are bat-sh*t crazy scam artists who want to take a guy for every thing he is worth… and I think, hey wanna-be-Alpha-dude, that's what you WANTED and then you expect her to stop being all about *her*?
But I won't say to take a second look at those girls who aren't so flashy, to look at character for the long term, but it's hard for women to find a good man, too, and they don't need the jerks messing with them.
If you want to mention Rome's treatment of women, perhaps you should consider the high rate of infanticide for female babies. The male had the ability to put down their children with no legal ramifications. There are letters on record with the husband writing to his wife, ordering her to kill their baby if it was a girl. This was done by smearing Opium on the boob. The baby would breastfeed and get the opium. Dead was from suffocation.
The fact of the matter is that human conception of the masculine and feminine has significantly changed since ancient times. I think that this is a product of the ancient fear of feminine reproductive capabilities. If you look at Greek mythology, Zeus consumed his first wife in order to prevent her from giving birth to a heir to challenge him. Zeus keeps power by taking over the birthing roles. He gives birth to Athena. Athena is a virgin goddess, so she cannot threaten his power by producing a challenging heir.
Society has progressed. We define male and female by physical differences that emerged from different roles in reproduction. Feminism should be "appreciation" or "discourse" of the human female; however, the modern feminist seek to function without masculine influence. This greatly damages the children.
I'll need a source for your statistics. Produce a link now.
Most of the men I have known who weren't the "marrying type" did exactly what your sister's ex did–they got married and had children with someone else.
At the end of the day, if you spend the rest of your life with your husband or wife–50/50 doesn't really mean anything does it Wanda?
Those property laws were designed to protect the wives when they have to suddenly be the sole caregiver for their children. The marginal costs of raising a child isn't significant when both parents pool their resources; however, after divorce, the single family must support the fixed costs for two households.
Two homes, two sets of utility bills, two different forms of transportation. Whoever gets the kids will be forced to raise the children with less economic and personal resources.
"At the end of the day, if you spend the rest of your life with your husband or wife–50/50 doesn't really mean anything does it Wanda?"
Nope. I feel very blessed. Boiled it right down didn't you Wonder.
Exactly! I bought my own wedding ring (after he proposed, mind you) because I knew he was tight on cash and I didn't want him stressing about it. It's a simple band….basically, just something that indicates I'm married.
Well, the rest of the story is that the ring I got had a weintsy little diamond in it and my mother-in-law forced my husband to get a bigger stone. I’m not complaining, but hey, I tried to be frugal!
Out of wedlock births are growing among all races.
(sarcasm)
EQUALITY!
(/sarcasm)
So THAT's how I get out of going clothes shoppin' with the wife?!?!
(Heck, we actually enjoy doing the flea market/garagae sales thing together… malls, food, and clothes? NO THANKS!)
i am a single girl and i would never live with/sleep with a man that i was not married to – call me old-fashioned but there are a few of us still out there….
such guys are creeps plain and simple…
Exactly! The ones who scream this the loudest are the ones who REFUSE to sign it! I've seen it happen so many times!
It's really quite strange. I've never felt close enough to the people involved to ask them why they do this. It would be nice to hear their view.
The really sad part is why do women stay with men like this, men who won't commit? These men use them for YEARS but refuse to put that ring on their finger, and the women just… go along with it. I think that is so humiliating. I don't know why women go along with it, sometimes for decades!
That reminds me of when Kathryn Hepburn died and there were shows and news stories glorifying the love affair between her and Spencer Tracy that went on for years until his death. The problem was, he was married with children the entire time. What was so special about a relationship like that? Only in Hollywood could an illicit love affair be portrayed as something so wonderful for all to admire! Hepburn and Tracy's wife were duped by that dopey Hollywood star who wouldn't commit to either woman.
"While Moviebob is certainly speaking of evolution, he also implies that culture is like technology — it's getting better and better as time goes by. Not necessarily."
Not necessarily "better" (though I regard this particular case as such) just "different."
Look, "marriage" – like nearly EVERYTHING ELSE that is "civilized" is a fundamentally "unnatural" thing. It has no real basis in the natural behavior of our species or other higher primates. Like "law," it's something we made up over time in to establish systems and order so that we may have comfort and nice things. And that's great. I like comfort and nice things as much as anyone. But it doesn't change the fact that it's all made-up and subject to change in-tandem with the society it supports. What we call "traditional" marriage now would be unrecognizable as such to Westerners in the middle ages, or many Middle-Easterners NOW.
(continued)
I can relate Wanda. I loved that other ring, but every time I wore it, I felt like somebody was sitting on my chest. The one I got from the man I married isn't half as nice, but it felt just right on my finger. No barfing, no hives, no doubts.
I went to a cousin's wedding a few weeks ago. They've been living together for a couple of years. I'm happy for them, but some of the "magic" was just missing. I have another cousin who hasn't co-habitated. He is getting married in a few weeks. His wedding is at 11 a.m. When one of our younger cousins kept pestering him about having a wedding so early in the morning, he shut him up by saying that he was ready to get to the honeymoon!
LOL!
I confess, I used to watch Dr. Phil. I remember him talking about how the feminist movement had benefited 15 y.o. boys more than anyone else – implying that they indeed get the milk for free! I truly believe that women determine where civilization goes.
Well here's one to throw out. A friend of mine is getting divorced after 10 years of marriage. She made most of the money but because of community property rules in this state, is in a bitter fight over – property. Ironic that her money bought most of it but since it is a community property state – and everything acquired during the marriage is split 50-50 – that's the way it is.
So I suppose I have posted to both sides of the fence on this issue.
I know my attitude is swimming against society's current but why on earth would a woman want to move in with a man and not be married? That old story about "why buy the milk…"
Intersting story from Tankfurding. Do even the Susan Surrandon (sp) secretly yearn for marriage?
"men don't owe it to women to marry them"
Totally agree. I think he should have stated more specifically the kind of relationships he was talking about (those that would lead to marriage if the men involved weren't pussies/some negative adjective). I don't think his attitude is emasculating, however, as his call is to men to step up and make a commitment (the implied part is not to make it to a piece of trash woman). Sorry about your friends, but I think in their cases, the emasculation happened prior to the marriage. Or the chicks were just really really good at appearing really really nice.
Ditto. Diamonds are super shiny and super durable, but if it's a diamond or a down payment on a not-ridiculous-house, I'll take the whatchacallit-zirconia and the bungalow.
Glad to hear things have worked out well for you guys!
Mmm yeah, like Aragorn. He had like five different names but never whined about having an identity crisis. He just had some ass kicking to do before becoming king.
Okay, so I'm oversimplifying, but the man is awesome, and I don't care if waiting for someone somewhat like him is considered unreasonable just because most "men" my age wear tighter pants than I do. ^___^
A. Of course there was marriage prior to Christianity. Did anyone say it was invented by Christians? (Marriage and procreation were of great importance to the Jews, and probably other cultures.) It is, however, advocated by Christians and supported writers of the Bible, like Paul, who wrote in First Corinthians something to the effect of, Hey, if you're not gonna be disciplined and instead go around screwing a bunch of people, cut it out and get married instead. That's still good advice today.
B. and C. aren't really relevant to the discussion. Actually, C kind of is, but only as it relates to D:
D. Having multiple partners is pretty risky these days. From a strictly health oriented POV, it's better to wait and find someone you can stick it out with who's done the same or been really lucky and not gotten herpes. And marriage is preferable because, once you find that person, getting married is like saying, this is for real, until one of us dies. It seems that in our culture, in which getting married as opposed to cohabitating was very recently considered the obvious choice, those who choose not to get married make that choice because it's easier to get out of the relationship (and then, presumably, date someone else, thereby increasing one's risk of contracting some icky STI). It's not all about health, but that itself is a pretty good reason to consider marriage a valuable institution.
One word: NERF.
I remember hearing of kick the can. Were there rules, or was it more like Calvin Ball?
Girl, I do like me some Aragorn. Call him Mortimer, for all I care, that was a great male character. He was always leading, sometimes quietly, sometimes with force, but always with consideration of everyone involved, of the journey ahead, and of the necessary goal. If the difficult path was necessary, he never even paused.
And throughout it, he was committed to his love, though sacrificing his desire to be with her for a higher purpose.
Geez. Now I'm going to have to rent the entire trilogy. Look what you did.
Yes, wait. Being with a male just to be with a male, is a mistake. There are men out there. They are rare. They are few. But that makes them even more valuable, more worth fighting to find, and once found, more worth working for his happiness. You'll never regret waiting. You'll always regret settling.
Does anybody know what % of divorces are filed by women? Anybody? The answer is 66-75% per CDC data. These findings are discussed in the following paper: American Law and Economics Review V2 N1 2000 (126-169) © 2000 American Law and Economics Association. Title: 'These boots are made for walking': why most divorce filers are women. Authors: MF Brinig1,z and DW Allen2
5 out of very 10 guy who says "I do" will have to face the horrors of Family Courts, and per the above data, it won't be their choice in a majority of cases.
Is this the kind of Abyss you want to throw young men into? Shame on you.
TaraLynn incoherently muttered:
"Men don't owe women marriage. I agree with that. And women don't owe men sex. And they all lived happily ever after. "
So if I marry a woman, she is OBLIGATED to sex me? That's a pretty extreme, non-feminist view you got their TaraLynn. I'm thinking my chance of getting sex out of one of the hundreds of millions of single women is better than me getting sex out of one 'wife'.
Seems to me if a woman thinks sex is a weapon to get marriage, once I've married her she'll 'discover' that she can use sex as a weapon for other things.
Also, being unmarried means you can trade up to. Who really wants to have sex with a fifty-year old women? Nobody really.
I think you're missing the point of loving the bachelor life, which includes sleeping with more than one woman. Your negative (women don't owe men sex) conveniently proves my point – "certain" women see sex as a bargaining chip and are more than happy to negotiate with it. Dullsville. If it helps to call me a boy, well, whatever works for ya. As for those women with the stilettos, they're a dime a dozen, and the fastest to fall for 'commitment phobic guy[s]' like myself. Faster pussycat, kill kill!
I'm curious, to all those people(that is women) saying men should have to 'buy the cow' to 'get the milk'. Does this mean, Special Snowflake, that you feel it is a woman's OBLIGATION to have sex with her husband?
Or do you just think it's 'way cool' to become the only milk supplier, and charge usurious rates?
Quiet frankly, I don't see much reason why a man would want to 'buy a cow' when the cow insists constantly 'that it is a bold independent cow, that can take care of itself, and do what it want!'.
Once more, buy this loudmouth cow prevents him from making use of other, younger, less complaining cows!
Seems like a pretty stupid thing for a guy to do. Really.
Oh dear. LOL. Mention not having sex with non-commitment phobics who believe marriage is a life-term with one aging woman who is out for nothing but manipulation and your pocket book, and the boys get upset.
Here's my point: you can't expect a woman to give her body to a man who views life as a way to score with multiple women. That's asking her to be a willing accomplice in her own exploitation. It isn't about manipulation. It's about self-respect – hers.
And like I said, you do not owe women marriage. In fact, with those views, it'd be best to never enter into the institution. But you are wrongfully expecting women to freely and willingly give their bodies for your self-gratification.
But hey, you can live your life and treat people any way you want. You are, however, missing out on what marriage should and can be, a committed relationship between a man and woman who love each other, take care of each other, trust each other, and yes Doom, have sex.
And no, CBK, I don't actually enjoy calling you a boy. This world needs real men, actually. As many as we can get. But if the stiletto shoes fits…
Good luck with your bachelorhood, guys. Here's my honest wish for both of you, that you meet amazing, giving, self-confident women who motivate you to behave better.
(continued)
The primary "function" of the current Western form of marriage was to stably-raise the kind of large-scale families needed to get the day-to-day "stuff" done and to "protect" women from being exploited by more societally-powerful men. Not an AWFUL setup while it was needed, but that was then. The general makeup of our civilization has changed, and whether we like it or not "marriage" will change with it. Men no longer hold a RIDICULOUSLY larger amount of legal/social power, meaning that women require much less "protection" – reaching 50 without a husband is no longer a ticket to an early, miserable death for lack-of-care. The ever-increasing mechanization of labor is creating less and less need for a large HUMAN work-force every day, which your already seeing reflected in both lower birth-rates and the loss-of-stigma to childless or single-child families. Darwin didn't even know the full scope of what he was on to, people: EVERYTHING evolves, and by the same rules: Conflict, mutation, survival of the fittest. It's a beautiful thing.
Exactly. Some men are drawn to high-maintenance women who have to have the latest this, and the latest that – with every hair in place at all times, and a fresh manicure, and totally self-absorbed. After a while, all that upkeep tends to strain the nerves and the pocketbook, and the patience and they start to complain. Well, wasn't that what you wanted? I'm not saying a woman should let herself go. Not at all. But if you're just looking at the superficial, that's what you''ll get, most of the time.
Depp's SO, Vanessa Paradis, had her choice of men. Guess who she chose? Same with Angelina Jolie, or the rest of them. Paradis could have had a nice, faithful, beta-type producer. And guess what, she chose the bad boy of Hollywood, as did Jolie (and Aniston before her) and so on. No one put a gun to those ladies heads, and the bottom line is that they preferred the hot dominant Alpha guy to marriage.
Which is where most women in their twenties are at, and signficant numbers of women in their thirties. The CDC reports that unmarried White women in their twenties are larger portions of single mothers among Whites, while teen motherhood (good news) is down. Cohabitation is increasingly the norm among 20 and 30 something women, vs. marriage. Women don't want (or increasingly need) husbands, Sandra Tsing Loh and the "Dreaming of Divorce" woman both deride "beta" type husbands, Loh calls them "kitchen bitches" and like author Christina Nehring advocates passionate affairs instead of marriage which all say does not provide excitement for women.
In today's modern, convenience-driven life, excitement beats commitment any day of the week. Which makes marriage as dead and irrelevant to young men and women as the Holy Roman Empire. Women could find a bunch of nice, dependable marriage minded men, even in Hollywood. They instead choose exciting and dominant Alphas like Depp and Pitt. I'd bet about 90% of young American women would prefer a passionate cohabitation with those guys any day of the week to marriage with a "nice guy."
My husband and I waited until I was 41 and he was 42 to marry for the first time. My parents were in poor health and not wealthy so we paid for everything ourselves. I bought a dress from a friend for $100 (originally a $700 dress), we made our own flower arrangements and pulled off a beautiful wedding and reception for under $1000. We both knew that living together would never be an option without the ring and that little piece of paper. A man who refuses to marry a woman he has fathered children with is the lowest of life forms IMHO.
When I was a teen/younger adult, I bought into the lie. I never understood why anyone would bother getting married when they can just live together. I figured it was more or less the same thing – as long as you are faithful, what does it matter whether you have that piece of paper or not?
Something happened through the years. I would see couple after couple live together, sometimes for years. But when you asked them, "Why not marry?" they would absolutely refuse. I didn't understand this. If you've been together faithfully for 20 years, have children together and have no intention of splitting up, then what's the big deal? Why not marry?
Somehow there IS something different about marrying versus living together. I don't quite understand how or why that is, but I have seen it over and over and over again.
People who deny it are just kidding themselves. I don't know who is worse, the men who keep stringing these women along without the outward commitment of marriage, or the women who keep believing them and let themselves be used in that way.
How disgraceful it is to live with a woman for all those years and not marry her. Disgraceful for both, actually. Marriage IS the commitment.
As far as the elites view of marriage, since Mary Wollstonecroft (mother of Mary Wollstonecroft Shelley) in the 1780's, there have been those who explicitly view marriage as a prison. Including Protestant Poet William Blake ("Daughters of Albion") who wrote extensively of marriage as a prison, the Oneida Community, and the early suffragetes including Victoria Woodhull.
Marriage = prison is a theme that is more than two hundred years old, and stems from lots of Christians (no one was more devout than Blake) first, pre-dating any Frankfurt School cultural Marxism. By about a hundred years before Marx was even born. It makes sense — for powerful elites the most important thing is moving outside social constraints to maximize their freedom of action, not needing the safety net of social mores and rules. ANY elite inevitably tends to that, unless it's constantly purged and replaced by new ones.
Thus you have deeply assimilated and patriotic Jews like Louis B. Mayer choosing their birthday as July 4, making movies that firmly celebrate marriage and family (cohabitation was unthinkable to that generation of moguls). Now power passes to the Alpha Male inheritors, the Pitts and Depps, and THEY care about maximizing their own actions. This applies to the Paradis and Jolies and the Anistons as well.
My husband did not get the "milk" either. But he did not try to get it either. There were times when we both had to apply the brakes, but we knew we wanted the honeymoon to be special. Those that just live together will never experience that.
I've been through it. Lost everything. And I haven't seen my kids in 8 months, because I would have to fly to Florida to visit, and get a hotel, etc. I was told lifetime alimony. I paid everything from 30 years of working including half the assets and a mortgage free house. Simply because she changed her mind after 22 years of marriage. It opened my eyes to the truth that you people refuse to see. I've personally met 2 dozen similar men that have been destroyed over the past 2 years. A friend I grew up with was ordered lifetime alimony the year after me. Both of our ex-wives are college educated and had good careers. Then they chose to stay home for a few years. We thought we were being good husbands and fathers, and we were set up and used. Women know the system, men are ignorant until it happens to them. How would any of you men on here feel to lose basically everything after 30 years of working, and see pictures of your ex-wife and her new boyfriend on your daughter's facebook page, laughing and smiling in the house that you worked to pay for. And your too broke to visit your kids, or busy working, because if you lose your job and can't pay your alimony and child support, the government will call you a deadbeat and throw you into jail. Men are being destroyed by a biased anti-father divorce system, and some even end up committing suicide. And you people refuse to see the truth. The only women who don't cash out a winning lottery ticket are those women that married men that didn't have enough to take in the first place. Every case that I've seen the women are the ones that have chosen to cash out, and walked away laughing with a fat monthly check. I've paid out close to 180,000 in the past 3 years, and have six more to go. I sure hope that I can stay employed so the government doesn't put my in jail too. Wake up people. I am happy to explain the truth to every young male I meet. And the smarter ones are catching on.
I am repeating this. I've been through it. Lost everything. And I haven't seen my kids in 8 months, because I would have to fly to Florida to visit, and get a hotel, etc. I was told lifetime alimony. I paid everything from 30 years of working including half the assets and a mortgage free house. Simply because she changed her mind after 22 years of marriage. It opened my eyes to the truth that you people refuse to see. I've personally met 2 dozen similar men that have been destroyed over the past 2 years. A friend I grew up with was ordered lifetime alimony the year after me. Both of our ex-wives are college educated and had good careers. Then they chose to stay home for a few years. We thought we were being good husbands and fathers, and we were set up and used. Women know the system, men are ignorant until it happens to them. How would any of you men on here feel to lose basically everything after 30 years of working, and see pictures of your ex-wife and her new boyfriend on your daughter's facebook page, laughing and smiling in the house that you worked to pay for. And your too broke to visit your kids, or busy working, because if you lose your job and can't pay your alimony and child support, the government will call you a deadbeat and throw you into jail. Men are being destroyed by a biased anti-father divorce system, and some even end up committing suicide. And you people refuse to see the truth. The only women who don't cash out a winning lottery ticket are those women that married men that didn't have enough to take in the first place. Every case that I've seen the women are the ones that have chosen to cash out, and walked away laughing with a fat monthly check. I've paid out close to 180,000 in the past 3 years, and have six more to go. I sure hope that I can stay employed so the government doesn't put my in jail too. Wake up people. I am happy to explain the truth to every young male I meet. And the smarter ones are catching on.
It's sad that you're basically telling young men to throw they lives away, and not open their eyes and learn about the truth of what will happen to them if this wonderful women should ever change her mind and divorce them. The woman may be wonderful TODAY. But years down the road, she will change, and there is nothing you can do but hand everything over to her and the lawyers. And by the way, there are plenty of beta boys out there like you for these girls to marry. The truth is that THEY are the ones choosing to stay with the men that refuse to marry them. So they don't want a beta boy. And it's not for you to tell them what they should do. They are big girls, and equality has given them the right to make their own decisions. And by the way, I say this as a discarded (divorced) father of two girls, one in college, the other starting next year. They don't want husbands, they just want to party. You really have a lot to learn. Maybe one day you can lose everything in a divorce and get a lesson in reality yourself.
Yep, that sounds just like my wedding. I remember Oprah talking about a wedding like this that she attended in N.C. She was astounded by it and kind of made fun of it. But, Oprah, I've been married 17 years and didn't put my family in debt for a big wedding. I had a friend who had 2 older sisters. After paying for 2 really big weddings, her dad offered her and her fiance the same amount of money he'd put into the other weddings if they'd elope. They did! If you want the big wedding that's fine. To each his own.
Tee hee hee. Rent away. I will be with you in spirit. Which is better than being with you in front of the TV in person, because spirits can't drool.
Mmm, manliness!
"You'll never regret waiting. You'll always regret settling."
Damn right!
so much animosity towards these cows !
Is the comments section a "project" by some sort of fundamentalist group to try to put a good face on marriage. I can't recall seeing such a series of one sided comments before. This must have been planned for weeks.
Anyone who has any real world experience knows that only 3 to 5% of men have enough of what attracts women to actually have any sort of reasonable selection available to them.
Most of the rest must either hold their nose and take the plunge or just opt out.
couldn't agree more with you. i think there are a lot more of us 'old-fashioned gals' out there than the media/society/peers would like us to think.
What's really disgusting about Hollywood is that these serial failures make "relationship" films that ostensibly teach us the true meaning of love.
"How come you don't treat me like [pick your movie star] loved his girl in that movie?"
It is impossible to compete with the "romantic" movie lead who in reality is a miserable cad.
Marriage is insane. 50% of marriages end in divorce. I personally am not willing to take such a risk with what little wealth I have. An actor with millions of dollars on the table has to be an utter fool to risk his wealth in such an arrangement. Women come and go when your hot and rich, $6,000,000 checks on the other hand, those you have to work for.
i think you have to be retarded to even live with a woman knowing that if she has a mood swing or meets a nice new fellow at the gym she can call the cops and have you carted off to jail on domestic violence charges.
Marriage and cohabitation give women way to much control over a man. I'd never do it, and i'm lower middle class, if i had 5 mansions and an eight figure bank roll I'd be scared to even fuck a chick for fear that she'll accuse me of rape just to get one of my houses in the settlement.
Especially with the nature of the women in Hollywood.
Men don't owe women marriage. I agree with that. And women don't owe men sex. And they all lived happily ever after.
Actually CBK, this last post makes your meaning clearer. And you are right, men should not be pressured into marriage. That is a dual commitment, one made together as an act of love.
If a man can't make a commitment, however, he shouldn't be in a relationship. Love your bachelor life. Just do it without women. You shouldn't enjoy the intimacy of marriage (the companionship, the time, the sex) without the willingness to commit to it. Spin it anyway you want, but that's the behavior of little, self-indulgent boys. Not men.
But let's also not assume women are dying to eternally bind themselves to a man in extended adolescence, a man too fearful or selfish or greedy to give rather than only take.
For every stereotype, there is the rule and the exception. For every woman like your ex-girlfriend, there are ten who wouldn't touch a commitment phobic guy with the heel of their stiletto, much less date him.
Kick the can rules were different for each different neighborhood. So if you went to a friends house they might be different than if you were playing around yours…
I'm a bit excited that you wrote this, Steven. It means that my "future husband search" is not in vain and there are decent, gentlemanly, and somewhat old-fashioned guys still out there. Albeit not in large numbers—I've yet to see that many—but at least they're there.
I'm a single college undergrad and I have yet to have a boyfriend because of this. It's not for lack of offers, but I'm very wary and distrusting of my male peers. Too many of them have less-than-savory motives and have yet to mature out of the "must-have-uber-hot-chick-to-show-off!" phase. Sorry; but I'm looking for a serious relationship, jerks.
And to echo some of the other ladies out there who have posted (thank goodness there are more of you!), I also refuse to have sex with/live with anyone who's not my husband. Old-fashioned, you say? Well, thank you, I'm flattered! (There would be a lot less societal problems in this country if we brought back some old-fashion-ness…)
Ha! I know I for one didn't get paid handsomely in my divorce. I'm still struggling to get my child support every month – a louse $150 that my ex can't seem to part with.
Ha! I know I for one didn't get paid handsomely in my divorce. I'm still struggling to get my child support every month – a lousy $150 that my ex can't seem to part with.
remember, I'm an old guy. NERF wasn't as sophisticated back in my day so we made do with sticks and acorns.
ah, I love Calvin Ball! We should make that a spectator sport.
that and a few bananas too.
Its so obvious except to 80% of the above posters. They are Hollywood's suckers.
I think so many people are not seeing the larger behavioral patterns here. Like most behavior, if the rewards are sufficient, the behavior will be reinforced. If they are insufficient or punished (like via taxation), people will avoid the behavior. Marriage is the same thing. If men are avoiding it, it's because the benefits are insufficient or non-existent, and the duties are too much of a punishment.
A few facts:
- Women marry up economically. (men earn more than women in 70% of marriages [census])
- In CA, the divorce rate is near 70%. Let that sink in. Go to court stats & figure the difference b/t marriages & divorce proceedings. I did.
- Women initiate approx. 75% of divorces (see AARP & Discovery)
- Women receive child custody 95% of the time
- Men pay approx 95% of the alimony in the USA (see census & IRS)
What the above indicates is that there are few benefits to marriage for men sufficient to give them an incentive to choose it. When, as a man, you stand a likely chance of having your children home and 1/2 of your income and assets taken away by law, even if (and particularly so) you did nothing wrong, is a system not worth opting into. Think about it… women initiate 3/4 of marriages. Who's commitment-phobic here? And more importantly, why should men opt into that? Answer – they shouldn't and aren't.
So when women marry up economically, they have every incentive to then leave later after acquiring sufficient time and interest in property. They need no reason.
I still do not see the benefits to the guys here. It's not like wives HAVE to have sex, and from what every guy I've ever met has said, the sex drops off after marriage… but he still has to pay. Cooking? Puh-leeze. I haven't ever met a woman under 40 that cooks. As someone certainly under 40 that is my demo. What is the benefit to men exactly?
And if you think calling men names (very 2nd grade, btw) in an effort to induce marriage, you are sorely mistaken. Particularly in light of the above stats.
There isn't any benefit to it, particularly in light of the duties…
Para 3
"Think about it… women initiate 3/4 of marriages" should say Think about it… women initiate 3/4 of divorces
sweet!
You're absolutely right! My husband was a gentleman also. Our honeymoon was special too! We've got great husbands, don't we!
So aren't you going to explain it?
The personal description, I mean.
Please?
I'm sorry to hear your story; I'm definitely aware that many decent men have been screwed over by the divorce system in this country. I'll never be able to understand what you're going through, but I can understand why it can forever tarnish your opinion of marriage.
But as a woman, just know that some of us are not that heartless. There is so much selfishness wrapped up in the actions of these women that I'm disgusted to know we're of the same sex. The idea of me ever pulling something like that on my future husband (with whom I'll probably have had children with, no less) makes me ill. The one thing I want out of my life more than anything else is a family. I would consider my life a complete and utter waste if I didn't have one of my own. Why would I throw that all away?
Again, not all of us are soul-sucking monsters.
And I notice you said your daughters are in college; we'd be around the same age then. College girls just want to party, you say? Sure, there are a lot that do. But guess what? I hate partying. Absolutely abhor it. Nothing more than a grand opportunity to make a bloody fool out of yourself. There are still college-aged gals who are not that lacking in self-respect.
But one day they'll wake up—most do once they've been humiliated one too many times.
I think the perception of who is screwed in a divorce is generational. It seems to me that the younger guys I know who have been divorced have tried to dick over their exes; just trying to drop off the planet and hide their assets so they don't have to pay anything.
Meanwhile the older guys I know who are divorced (say 45+) tend to be on neutral-to-good terms with their ex's and try to support their obligations with their children. Where the screwing over of the guys tends to happen in most of these cases happens when the state comes in on stuff like child support. Every one of my friends and acquaintences over 45 that are divorced have told me to not put myself in a position to be at the mercy of the child support agencies. I know quite a few who paid more than what they were supposed to according to the court order to support their kids, then the state comes in, says 'we're doing payroll deduction to ensure everyone gets their court-ordered pay', then everything goes to pot. Usually stuff like dual-withdrawing monthly payments, or failing to withdraw then gigging for non-payment when they don't do the auto-withdraw they have control over and forced in the first place. A lot of the payments to the ex-wives also tend to stop arriving, even though the cash is being taken out of the guy's account after the state board steps in too, which leads to everyone thinking everyone else is aligned against them.
I know one guy whose drug into court by the state about ever 3 years to pay back child support for the last 5 years his child was eligible that the state never paid (his kid's in his 30's now…). Every time he has to waste time going in, showing them that they took out the money. His ex always comes in on his side and shows the state never gave her the payments, and shows that he then directly paid her more than he legally owed. Case is then 'perminently' sealed because he proved he paid on his own, he's never refunded by the state for the money they took and never paid out, and some government idiot always seems to find his child support file a few years later and file a suit on his son's behalf because the file says he's something like $18,000 in areers. I saw this process happen twice in the 5 1/2 years I worked with him and he'd just gotten another summons about a week after I quit (I'd forgotten some stuff in my locker and ran into him then).
Sorry to break it to you, but plenty of women don't want to get married, especially if they've tried marriage or cohabitation already. Believe it or not, they LIKE being single. I'm one of them.
The way our society is currently structured, it takes two full-time incomes to support a family, but the woman is still the one expected to be responsible for the majority of the housework and the childcare. So men get to come home, kick their shoes off, and relax in front of the TV, while the woman gets started on her second shift, making dinner, helping the kids with homework, and doing a load of laundry or two before she has to go to bed, get up, and do it all over again. Please explain to me why I would want to live like that.
(FYI, I am truly single, not dating or cohabiting because I'm smart enough to know that serial monogamy entails more emotional and physical risk than it's worth.)
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