Pop Culture Exploits Matthew Shepard Tragedy to Create ‘Thought Crimes’
by Pam MeisterQuick: when I say “Matthew Shepard,” what do you think? A man killed because he was gay? Or just some poor sap in the wrong place at the wrong time? More on that in a minute.
Hate crime legislation aimed at making it a federal crime to assault someone for being a homosexual passed the House last week, and could be on its way to becoming law. It sounds great, doesn’t it? Who wouldn’t be against a law that would prosecute someone for targeting another person based on bigotry and bias? What could be wrong with this scenario?

Plenty. I’m all for prosecuting criminals for their acts, especially violent criminals. I’m pro-death penalty, if truth be told. I figure that if you deliberately take someone else’s life, you should pay by forfeiting yours. Not very PC of me, but there you have it.
However, it bothers me that individuals may soon be prosecuted for not just the crime, but the “behind the scenes” thoughts that may have contributed to that crime. Ken Klukowski, writing for Fox, explains why:
It’s bad public policy to try to take specific views or beliefs and make them part of a crime. Most violent crimes involve some form of hate, and it’s much easier to prove what a person did or did not do, compared with what was in their heart regarding specific groups of people when they did it.
A crime is a crime. It shouldn’t matter that the victim was a target because he was black, because he was gay, or because she reminded the perpetrator of the mother who abandoned him when he was in kindergarten. Perhaps these things should matter to profilers because it helps them to narrow down the possibilities when hunting down suspects, and to psychiatrists who are studying the damaged human psyche.
But as for the crime, it should be enough that the crime was committed.
The tragic poster boy for this movement is Matthew Shepard, a young gay man in Wyoming who in 1998 was found brutally beaten, tied to a fence and left for dead. He later died of his injuries. The story gained national prominence when it was reported as a “hate crime” and Shepard’s cruel fate became the basis for a national, pop culture movement. A play called “The Laramie Project” was staged all over the nation, including certain star-studded performances, and was turned into a movie, as well.
Gay blogger Perez Hilton even got in on the act last year when he filed a $25,000 lawsuit against Black Eyed Peas manager Polo Marina. Marina allegedly hit Hilton following an argument between Hilton and Black Eyed Peas member will.i.am. Hilton offered to donate the money (if he won the lawsuit) to the Matthew Shepard Foundation – a preemptive offer that was refused because Hilton called will.i.am a “f***ing f****t.”
Problem is, new details about the Shepard murder emerged in 2004. And the killers, now in jail for their crimes, told 20/20’s Elizabeth Varga that drugs motivated their crime, not the fact that Shepard was gay.
[Aaron] McKinney told Vargas he set out the night of Oct. 6, 1998, to rob a drug dealer of $10,000 worth of methamphetamine. But after several attempts, McKinney was not able to carry out his plan.
[Russell] Henderson said he thought if he could keep McKinney drinking, he’d forget the robbery plan.
But according to McKinney, when he encountered Shepard at the Fireside Lounge, he saw an easy mark.
McKinney told “20/20″ Shepard was well-dressed and assumed he had a lot of cash.
Shepard was sitting at the bar, McKinney recalls. “He said he was too drunk to go home. And then he asked me if I’d give him a ride. So I thought, yeah, sure, what the hell,” according to McKinney.
All three got in the front seat of McKinney’s pickup, and Henderson took the wheel. McKinney told police that at some point Shepard reached over and grabbed his leg. In response, McKinney said, he hit him with his pistol. “I was getting ready to pull it on him anyway,” he said.
McKinney says he asked for, and got, Shepard’s wallet, which had only $30 in it. But even though Shepard handed over his money, McKinney continued beating him.
When pressed by Vargas as to why he continued beating Shepard after he had already taken his wallet, McKinney said, “Sometimes when you have that kind of rage going through you, there’s no stopping it. I’ve attacked my best friends coming off of meth binges.”
Not only did Shepard’s friends and the community jump to the conclusion that the crime was related to his sexuality, but McKinney’s girlfriend Kristen Price also made statements to police to that effect. Yet she too told Varga a different story:
Price now says that at the time of the crime she thought things would go easier for McKinney if his violence were seen as a panic reaction to an unwanted gay sexual advance.
But today, Price tells Vargas the initial statements she made were not true and tells Vargas that McKinney’s motive was money and drugs. “I don’t think it was a hate crime at all. I never did,” she said.
Were Henderson and McKinney – and Price – telling the truth in 1998 or in 2004? Does it really matter? They admitted to the beating that ended in Shepard’s death and are serving life sentences. Any new stories won’t be helping them at all at this point, so why lie now?
And what of Shepard? He was a troubled young man who was HIV positive and into the drug scene too. This is not to say I blame the victim – far from it. But his issues are relevant to what happened after his death. Cliff Kincaid explores this theme further:
Why were the stories about this crime so wrong? The gay rights movement wanted to depict Shepard as an innocent victim of a homophobic society. This played into their demands for legislation to curb so-called “hate crimes.” One of the perpetrators used that to his advantage, arguing when he went on trial that he went into a panic when Shepard tried to proposition him at a bar. His girlfriend made the same claim in the media, including on “20/20.” But now they say it was all a ruse, designed to get him a reduced sentence by suggesting that he wasn’t in control of his faculties when the murder occurred. The ploy failed. Both of those involved in the murder got life in prison.
ABC and correspondent Elizabeth Vargas are now under heavy fire from the homosexual lobby for dispelling the Shepard myth. But ABC and Vargas ALSO show Shepard to be a very depressed young man, on the verge of suicide, because of his homosexual lifestyle. The “gay rights” lobby doesn’t want to face up to that. Matthew wasn’t “gay” and “proud.” He was profoundly troubled.
When we begin to prosecute for the thoughts behind the crime, we open a very wiggly can of worms that can’t be shut again. Who’s to say this won’t become a weapon in and of itself?
Imagine: you are accused of assaulting a man. It happens during a bar brawl or a botched robbery attempt. The man is gay, and he says he was targeted for that very reason. You know it’s untrue – he just happened to be in the right place at the right time for your scheme – but how do you prove otherwise? Suddenly a crime that might have gotten you (hypothetically) two to five in the hoosegow becomes one that gets you (hypothetically) ten to fifteen, thanks to its heightened status. The prosecutors are suddenly psychological experts who can read your mind, right?
And, what if – what if – you didn’t even do it? What if it’s a case of mistaken identity, which can and does (unfortunately) happen? What if it’s a case of revenge? If the blasphemy laws in Pakistan can be used as a way of settling personal scores, who’s to say hate crimes in the U.S. won’t be used in the same way?
Then there’s the problem with double standards. If one can be prosecuted for the thoughts that go with a crime perpetrated on a minority, what about the opposite scenario? Will a white man beaten by one or more black men just because he’s a white guy in the wrong neighborhood get the same kind of justice? Would a movie be made about the white guy left for dead after the black guys are done working him over? Don’t hold your breath. It doesn’t fit the current PC mantra permeating the entertainment industry. I haven’t heard about a movie being made of the wrongful prosecution of the Duke lacrosse players, have you?
Finally, will hate crimes morph from the thoughts behind a violent crime to the thoughts themselves? Will we have to worry about saying the wrong thing about the wrong person for fear of it being misinterpreted as something that “could” lead to violence? I’m not talking about actual threats, but tasteless jokes and derogatory comments could become a lot more than just reasons for dirty looks.
Thanks to the pop culture myth that helped perpetrate the false reason for Matthew Shepard’s senseless death, we could now all be facing regulations that resemble “1984” more than they do “Land of the Free.” Is this really the direction in which we want to head?
I’ll end with a quote from Camille Paglia on the subject: Hate crimes legislation, in my view, simply cushions people in their own subgroups and gives them a damaging sense of false entitlement. The world will always be a very dangerous place where anyone can cross paths with a psychopath.




Subscribe via RSS
155 Comments
I agree. Legislating what people think is very dangerous. And I don't even know how you begin to prove what a person was thinking at any given moment. I was raped 10 years ago, and had I learned that the man who raped me did it specifically because he hated women with brown hair….I wouldn't have felt more raped. (and yes, it was rape-rape)
Whatever happened to equal treatment under the law? Why does it matter if I'm a white heterosexual Christian male or a black Muslim bisexual female or a multicultural transgendered Buddhist. Every human being in this country (even liberals) is precious in God's eyes. How dare we presume some of us are more equal than others. If you kill somebody in cold blood (or beat them severely enough that they die), there's hate there regardless of the color of their skin, their religious beliefs, or how they choose to gratify themselves.
And by the way, if a gay man tries to kill himself because he's gay and fails, will he be charged with a hate crime?
Bravo! I consider any violence against anyone, black, white, young, old, heterosexual, homosexual to be a hate crime. It is common sense and common decency. Is it right that if a white, heterosexual male is attacked, his attacker may only get a couple years in jail vs. a white, homosexual male is attacked and his attacker gets 15 years because he happens to be gay?? What happened to everyone created equal? I guess it only applies if you are in the politically correct, protected groups. Liberal, leftist thinking degrades the equality they keep shilling about!
I think a real danger is the assumption of "Hate" where none exists. The legal repercussions are myriad. Also, "Hate" crimes only seem to go one way, a "typical white person" has zero hope of ever being afforded the ability to claim this as a possible motive.
"Hate crime" laws are not new in U.S. law. The the first broad scope "hate crime" laws in the U.S. were passed back in the 'sixties to combat anti-semetic and racially motivated crimes and discrimination. It is also inaccurate to suggest that U.S. jurisprudence doesn't consider motive as a mitigating factor in the prosecution of criminal acts. The specific decision to target someone because of their identity is a form of pre-meditation, and when coupled with a desire to harm a group of people represents a more methodical and even conspiratorial crime. In this sense, "hate crimes" are very real and treating them as such is well supported in the legal precedents of our country. The problem, however, comes when we begin to assume that ANY attack against a person in a protected category is AUTOMATICALLY a hate crime. When properly applied, this is not the case. Its a fine line, and I agree that we should be VERY careful when it comes to these laws.
[...] here to read the rest: Pop Culture Exploits Matthew Shepard Tragedy to Create ‘Thought Crimes’ This entry is filed under America – Blogs, Big Hollywood. You can follow any responses to this [...]
The inequality of the hate crimes concept is parodied here: Perpetrators of Vicious Hateful Beating of Iraq War Veteran Have Sentences Reduced After Shocking Courtroom Revelation http://optoons.blogspot.com/2009/05/perpetrators-...
Note also the video clip at the end of this post, in which members of the military are dubbed "not real victims" when they're the victim of hate crimes.
I never thought about it that way… but it opens up the idea and/or implementation of thought crimes.
Most violent attacks against gays are done by gays. That is now a hate crime also. Gays have huge rates of domestic violence. Hate crimes.
We all know the Shepherd story is not true in the media but they still repeat it.
Under this pedophile protection act, If I catch a gay attempting to molest my child and I hurt the molestor, I get the sentece. If a clean cop tasers a gay, he commits a hate crime.
Gay people, like many other minorities, are singled-out and disproportionately targetted for violent attack. At school, I was punched on four different occasions, spat at and ridiculed for being gay. Our society is infused with anti-gay bias – at schools, in churches, in the workplace, on the sportsfield, pretty much everywhere. There is even anti-gay legislation enshrined in law in many states which forbids gays to marry and lets gay people get fired or denied housing just for being gay. It is NOT a level-playing field and, until it is, sexuality needs to be included in the list of hate crimes categories. It is staggering that heterosexuals stay playing victim just because they feel their right to hate gay people may be becoming unacceptable. Anyhow, EVERYONE'S sexuality is protected, so if a group of gay people straight-bash a young white heterosexual male, while insulting his sexuality and race, then that is hate crime too. Funny how that never happens, though.
I have to say I'm going to take what a convicted murderer tells a reporter with an enormous grain of salt–to cite them as though they were truthful, trusted individuals to support your argument is a bit silly. I agree in principle that hate crime laws shouldn't be necessary, but this is blowback from the decades/centuries when those groups advocating the laws were deliberately underserved by law enforcement–crimes against black and gays went unpunished and even participated in by law enforcement. It's a weird irony that now the system is finally offering protections that these laws are getting through.
[Then there’s the problem with double standards. If one can be prosecuted for the thoughts that go with a crime perpetrated on a minority, what about the opposite scenario? Will a white man beaten by one or more black men just because he’s a white guy in the wrong neighborhood get the same kind of justice? Would a movie be made about the white guy left for dead after the black guys are done working him over? Don’t hold your breath. It doesn’t fit the current PC mantra permeating the entertainment industry. I haven’t heard about a movie being made of the wrongful prosecution of the Duke lacrosse players, have you?]
Pam Meister is sadly corrected since these stories of BLACK racism got little or no coverage in the "Old Media":
*Police: Bus camera shows attack on Belleville West student was racially motivated:
http://www.bnd.com/homepage/story/923680.html
*Kudos to Pastor Darius Pridgen for Stating The Obvious in the Nicola Fletcher Case – Black Mob Attacks Interracial Couple:
http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/2009/09/kudo...
This video does a great job explaining the danger of being PC:
*MSNBC & The Great Liberal Narrative: The Truth About The Tyranny of Political Correctness:
http://www.pjtv.com/video/Afterburner_with_Bill_W...
Killing a homosexual? Intolerable!
Whites kill blacks? Unacceptable.
Blacks Kill Whites? Regretable.
Killing the unborn? Acceptable.
Muslim honor killings? Forgettable.
Leaving the elderly and infirm to die so society doesn't have high healthcare costs? Soon to be Acceptable.
McKinney has admitted to being bisexual as well, so that sort of tends to negate the hate crimes part of the act. It was an awful thing that never should have happened to anybody, but it's always been a little worrying that they turned this kid into a hero and use his death as an excuse to punish everybody who disagrees with them. I completely agree with your post, thank you.
"Hate crimes" are pure thought crimes. The left wants to remake humankind into a new creature that only has certain types of approved thoughts. Hence political correctness and the criminalization of saying certain things and having certain types of thoughts when you act. They think that if they can keep you from saying it (or punishing those they think acted upon it) you will stop believing it.
This is only the beginning of the criminalization process. If they win the hate crime battle, it will start to expand to things that aren't crimes when acted upon but were done in "hate," i.e. against one of their groups or sacred cows.
The left doesn't care. They fail to recognize that we don't invoke government's heavy hand against people because of what they say or think. We invoke it on the basis of what they do. They just don't care. Perhaps it has something to do with knowing that if their ideas were exchanged in a free market, they would soon go bankrupt. So they skew the market, make it illegal to think certain thoughts.
It's been widely acknowledged by the gay community for a long, long time that Matthew Shepard had a lot of problems. If you were raped in high school and ended up with depression and anxiety attacks, you'd probably be suicidal too. (And no, for those wondering, he didn't "decide" he was gay only after being raped.) Unless you think being raped is part of a "homosexual lifestyle," no, he wasn't depressed because of his "homosexual lifestyle." To claim he was miserable just because of the sole fact that he was gay is untrue. And even if he had been, does that mean there's something essentially wrong with being gay? If you faced prejudice and hatred for being Jewish, would that mean there was something essentially wrong with being Jewish?
Bravo to you. You talk about your rape the same way a person would talk about getting hit by a drunk driver, and that's just as it should be. In neither assault is the victim at fault, and your healthy attitude tells me you have not allowed this criminal to take your life away from you. Strong woman! I applaud you. Wish I could give you a hug.
Andrew: nobody here is suggesting that assault or murder should not be punished. You know this, and it is therefore irrelevant and dishonest to wave the bloody shirt of "anti-gay bias."
Assault is assault. Murder is murder. They should be punished.
If the law can make attacking a gay man a worse crime, it can just as easily make it no crime. Only if we insist that laws punish ACTIONS rather than thoughts can we have a truly free and equal society.
Don't be fooled by this hate crimes (thought crime) legislation.
The main driver of this was Abe Foxman of the ADL and primary group that it will benefit will be Jews who claim that their little sensitive feelings were hurt by some comment that was politically incorrect-yet accurate.
Recall that in the Soviet Union shortly after the revolution,one of the first laws to be passed was the death penalty for "anti-Semitism"….that kind of tells you who was primarily involved in the "Russian revolution".
This law is just being presented as protection for gays and lesbians,but watch which group demands the highest punishment for an infraction.
Those responding to my comment may call me a "bigot",a "hate monger" or even the overused "anti-Semite" if they wish,but just remember that I respect your right to say anything,while the above mentioned group would like to send people to jail for outspoken,frank debate.
[...] about Perez Hilton as of October 22, 2009 Pop Culture Exploits Matthew Shepard Tragedy to Create ‘Thought Crimes’ – bighollywood.breitbart.com 10/22/2009 Quick: when I say “Matthew Shepard,” what do you [...]
andrew212
Guess you didn't listen to Eric Holder–he said only' traditionally subjected' minorities would fall under the protection of the 'hate crime' laws.
The fact that I was taunted and threatened by blacks (while in school) simply because of my very pale skin and light blond hair, that I was chased and beat (till I learned to run really fast) would not matter–I was not, nor am I now, a 'traditional minority'.
So hating me is not a 'Hate Crime'.
I worry about hate crime legislation because it comes close to 'thought crime' . Having a thought and speaking that thought should never be a crime. The manner in which you choose to use your words is of concern—inciting to riot is against the law. (Saying fire is not wrong-yelling it in a dark theater is.)
Crime is Crime. Wrong is Wrong. Hate is Hate, if you hate me because I am a hetrosexual or if I hate you because you are homosexual. Why should one group be protected and the other not? It is ok for you to hate me —just don't act on it by harming or killing me, if you do you should be punished just as severely as I would be were the positions reversed. This law does not do that!
Both of the killers have recanted their 2004 20/20 interviews. They both now admit that they were not under the influence of drugs at the time, that they specifically targeted Matthew Shepard because they knew he was gay and assumed he was rich, and that hatred of gays was, in fact, a factor in why they murdered him.
I'm not sold on the idea that we should define crimes as being worse because they are motivated by hatred – the result is what matters, not the intent. But it is deeply naive of you to think that McKinney and Henderson were telling the truth in their 20/20 interviews, because…how did you put it? "…why lie now?" There are dozens of reasons.
I agree that the creators of "The Laramie Project" have walked a thin line – one they occasionally crossed – in exploiting both Matthew Shepard and the town of Laramie, which will forever be associated with "hate crime." But you're doing yourself and your argument a great disservice by accepting the words of two killers from five years ago as somehow "disproving" the idea that Shepard was killed because of his orientation, especially since their stories have changed yet again since then.
Hate crime legislation has some small, limited use in the case of minor crimes.To use one obvious example, there's a difference betwen a jerk who spray paints "Eminem Rules" on a subway car and a creep who spray paints a swastika on a synagogue wall. The former miscreant should get a fine or community service; the latter should do some jail time.
Similarly, a guy who throws eggs at the dean's house while pledging a fraternity should get a lesser punishment than a skinhead who throws eggs at the house of a black family that just moved into his neighborhood. But once a crime is as serious as assault or murder, I don't care what the criminal's motives were. MAYBE the thugs who killed Matthew Shepard did it because he was gay, or maybe they did it because they wanted his money. Either way, the crime would be just as brutal and heinous, and they'd deserve exactly the same punishment..
…foundation of another professional victim class…..
The Fireside ? Very doubtful that there was any cruising going on at this mostly cowboy bar. A college town and a cowboy bar where you used to be able to drive through ,get a sixpack, pint of jack and a bag of weed all through the drive trhough window. A druggies bar ? More likely. Everyone's vision of a bar should compared to the Fireside, a unique joint if there ever was one. Sheppard would have never thought he would "get lucky" in a joint like this, was probably on a downhill spiral and trying to get some rough trade by the hard luck too drunk story. If he didn't get any action , at least he would get high. Guarantee that is what he thought. Activist gays have been able to keep the truth to a minimum for a long time, ask Randy Shilts (if we could).
I believe you. LOTS of people get beaten up or pushed around for being different.. But I how would a hate crimes law would have helped you. It WOULDN'T have! Assault is already a crime, one that's supposed to have severe consequences.
MAYBE you lived in a place where police looked the other way when a gay kid got beaten up. If so, that's horrible. But what makes you think homophobic police would have enforced hate crimes more vigorously than they enforced existing laws against assault.
Hate crimes laws have only SYMBOLIC value. And sometimes there's nothing wrong with symbolism. Just don't kid yourself that ANYBODY will be ANY safer with hate crimes laws on the books.
I'll leave you with one last question: suppose a stupid redneck beat you with a baseball bat and was charged with a hate crime. Suppose he said at trial, "I didn't know he was gay. I just thought it would be fun to beat up some random nerd." Would THAT motive be any "nicer" than homophobia? Should the punishment be any LESS?
Would you also allow those that defile churches to "spend some time in jail" as well?
How about those that call a white person a "cracker or honky" while robbing/raping/killing them?
If one peruses national crime statistics,they will come to the inescapable conclusion that skin heads are the least likely group to harm others.
I was punched, kicked, and had my head smashed against a brick wall for going to the wrong school; and on several other occasions was ridiculed for being Jewish (which, as if it mattered, I happen not to be). It's not at all pleasant, you have my sympathies. The violence is and should be illegal, and those laws should be enforced. Everyone seems to be in agreement on that point.
Personally I think that you and I have a right to expect equal protection under the law, simple as that. Currently you may be regarded as a more worthy victim. I appreciate that may be comforting for you at the moment, but it's no less a perversion of fairness than seeing you as less worthy. By saying that violence against you is particularly unacceptable, it becomes *comparatively* acceptable against me. Once you've abandoned the principle of equal treatment, then the only thing protecting you personally is current fashion.
The problem also comes when, as the author said, the double standard calls for increased punishment because the victim was black, gay, etc., but not when the victim was white, heterosexual, etc. Why should gays and blacks be given protected status while others are not? I agree that in a case in which the perpetrator targeted someone for the specific reason of their race, identity, etc., that motive should be taken into consideration during prosecution and conviction, but I'm not sure it should factor into sentencing. Sure, killing someone for money is worse than a heat-of-the-moment murder, but is killing someone because they're gay worse than killing someone because they're homosexual? All crimes motivated by the victim's identity should have similar punishment.
There was a very similar event in San Diego the same year Matthew Shepard was murdered. The victim was lured to an isolated area with the promise of sex and once there several accomplices robbed and then unnecessarily murdered the victim. No hate crime charges were filed even though California had statutes on the books. The bait was a black female prostitute, the murderers black males and the victim a middle age white male. DOJ statistics consistently show that blacks commit far more violent crimes against whites than the reverse. Hate crimes legislation is nothing more than an attempt to continue the creation of divisive class consciousness in this country and it is a clear violation of all the principles upon which this country was founded: the most important being equality under the law.
[...] Excerpt from: Pop Culture Exploits Matthew Shepard Tragedy to Create ‘Thought Crimes’ [...]
As "hate" is already used to describe the mildest criticism of leftist ideas, the idea of "hate crime" laws is deeply scary. Any doubt as to its selective enforcement?
But gay people are NOT equal under the law: in most states, they cannot marry one another nor even enter in a civil partnership, and are routinely dismissed from their jobs – including the military – just for being gay. There is still a lonnnng way to go before gay people achieve actual and social equality, and until then the hate crimes law is needed. I realize some heterosexuals won't like it because they resent anything that affords gay people acknowledgment and respect, but tough. BTW, hadn't realized what kind of site this way – Fox News posts and all. I'm outta here!
I hope this means that stupid play "The Laramie Project" will go away. I saw it several years ago in London, and at the time I thought it was profoundly one-sided, and there HAD to be more to the story than that play portrayed. When all the lies about the incident started being revealed, I felt my instincts had been confirmed. I hate the whole "hate crime" concept – especially since the way it is applied, crimes against white people can't be prosecuted as hate crimes, even if they are perpetrated by minorities against whites. This is just one more aspect of the whole "politically correct" movement. Silence the truth, no matter what you have to do to make that happen, including making it illegal.
Considering the Party in power at the moment, I expect more of this sort of 'Hate' legislation. The purveyers of prejudice always pander to the victocrats in America to appear sympathetic while gaining more power over the populace. Obama and his minion have made hatred of those different from the so called 'norm' into an artform. Just check Obama's Enemies List.
So I imagine you support polygamy, marriages of incest, and voluntary marriages between adults and teens under 18. Now please scurry off like a cockroach and find comfort in the groupthink of your loonie, leftwing hatesites.
The rub also lies in the fact that if you get in a scuffle with some dude in some bar, and you are arrested, he can scream he's gay, even though there is no way to know that. How do you know when a person is gay? Not every gay person flits about in bright colored shirts and speaks with a lisp. I hate to use the old standby but I will. It is a slippery slope.
Pam I agree that hate crime legislation is a bad idea for all the reasons you have used. However I once thought as you did about the Matthew Shepard incident. I am currently in a production of The Laramie Project and was also in The Laramie Project: 10 Years Later, an Epilogue this month. 20/20 got it wrong; they beleived the two culprits. The police had blood tests of the pair of criminals because they were in the hospital after fights soon after Matthew was beaten. They were not on drugs. Even the police involved in the case believed that it was a "hate" crime. Matthew was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but being gay made the incident worse in this case death. I will agree though that the gay groups grabbed on to this as a means of futhering their cause. Bottom line, this legislation is very bad and won't protect the people anyway.
JSBurke, that's a very disrespectful, immature comment. Grow up. And watch this:
http://rawstory.com/2009/10/86yearolds-plea-gay-m...
If this were the 1950's, you would have replaced "homosexuals" with "blacks." Either way, you are wrong.
Wrong, motive is mitigating only to the extent that it mitigates pre-mediated to a heat of passion type argument – like the murderer was trying to do in the Shephard case (i.e., I should be convicted of manslaughter because he was gay and I panicked). Pre-mediated is pre-meditated and has nothing to do with WHY it was premidated. You're advocating for pre-meditated plus – that, somehow, the planned murder of a person purely because of their sexual preference/ethnicity/gender is "more" pre-meditated than the planned murder of a person for any other reason. This is a thought crime, pure and simple and has no place in our jurisprudence. This values the life of a gay man more than the life of your child/mother/brother/you. It is NOT equal justice before the law. If you still want it, so be it. But, don't fool yourself
Equal rights and protections, not unequal. Read his comment again, Andrea. In the 1950's, he (and I ) would have been marching with Charlton Heston and MLK Jr. to establish equal rights under the law.
Now all that hard work is being undone.
andrew212 wrote:
[Anyhow, EVERYONE'S sexuality is protected, so if a group of gay people straight-bash a young white heterosexual male, while insulting his sexuality and race, then that is hate crime too. Funny how that never happens, though.]
*White Pro-Gay Activists Hurl Racist Slurs at then-Candidate Obama for not being "Pro-Gay" Enough:
http://www.whataboutourdaughters.blogspot.com/200...
*White Gay "No to 8" Activists Attack Innocent Black Voters:
http://holycoast.blogspot.com/2008/11/n.html
*White Homosexual College Professor Arrested for Raping 5-Year Black son and then pimping him on eBay:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/06/media...
In short, it's not unusual for White homosexuals to be (a) racist and (b) violent.
The fact homosexual groups like GLAAD and HRC refuse to crack down on these idiots just increases the amount of White Gay Racism (WGR) in America.
Sorry, I disagree with you. While this kind of prejudice still exists, there have to be special regards for this kind of crime, as an extra deterrent for those who are violent and small-minded enough to engage in this kind of criminal behavior.
On another topic, since you are in favor or their equal rights, I assume you will be supporting the end of "don't ask, don't tell," and also supporting their right to marry, yes?
First, I think Gay people need to work on the divisions with the community. Manybisexuals and transpeople can give you discrimination they've suffered at the hands of the people that talk the same game you do, so in many ways, all this tolerance talk is high hypocracy based on my experience.
Rolling gay marriage into hate crimes is an inaccurate distraction. Gay marriage is a point of law, adding to the current statutes as they stand, and coming into new terretory altogeter. People are already prosecuted for assault, battery, and vandalism. How does it make any difference to charge into percieved motive? We've seen how that has worked with Matthew Sheppard and Jennifer Prissel…hate crimes that simply…wern't. Crossing into motivation with something as intangible as sexuality marks an intrusion beyond the bedroom. . .into citizens minds.
And If you don't want government in your bedroom, why the HELL would you want them in your head?!
*MissQuinn*
That's the truth. Homosexuals in the Netherlands are freaked out that that Muslims are the new PC "victims" and thus MORE protected under hate crime laws. Hence, for the sake of "tolerance," a Muslim gay basher can attack a homosexual with few repercussions.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/somethings-rotten-in...
This is how political correctness can backfire on "protect classes" of people.
@gingersnapper
And it's because of such PC nonsense that we're seeing MORE incidents of Black-on-White racism:
*Police: Bus camera shows attack on Belleville West student was racially motivated:
http://www.bnd.com/homepage/story/923680.html
*Kudos to Pastor Darius Pridgen for Stating The Obvious in the Nicola Fletcher Case – Black Mob Attacks Interracial Couple:
http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/2009/09/kudo...
Of course, this PC mindset is now backfiring on Black people. Black-on-Black violence has reach epidemic levels since Black criminals they are considered "helpless victims of racism" instead of homegrown terrorists.
I hate to break this to you, but even gay activist Peter Tactchell admits that "Homosexuality: it isn't natural":
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/arti...
http://www.citizenlink.org/turnsignal/A000007949….
@andrea2929
Actually, many Black people think homosexuality is evil and thus resent it being compared to skin color. Columnist Tara Wall explains:
Black civil and religious leaders – rightfully – have expressed outrage at the gay community's co-opting "civil rights" to include gay sex. Blacks were stoned, hung, and dragged for their constitutional right to "sit at the table." Whites – gay or not – already had a seat at that table. There is no comparison. Activists argue that, like skin color, gays don't choose their lifestyle. Even if, for the sake of argument, that were so, homosexuals are still "choosing" to get married. To compare voters denying what is not a right to blacks dying for what is – is beyond the pale.
The media hasn't helped. One news headline trumpeted: "Who is to blame?" (for this apparent voter lapse in judgment). When the public has so clearly spoken on the issue of gay marriage (just as they gave Mr. Obama a mandate), why would the media suggest something is wrong with voters? Is there blame for voting for Mr. Obama?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/18/a...
In short, the average Black Democrat would echo Great Satan's comments on the homosexual lifestyle.
And they'd be equally wrong. Oh, and "the homosexual lifestyle?" What is it, 1985? Please don't tell me you actually still think it's a choice.
I'll take an iHug. Never ever turn down a hug!!!! And thank you. I decided a long time ago that I wasn't going to be anyone's victim and I'm not.
What a crock of shit. What drug are you on that you believe that BS.? BTW the Shepard story is very true.
Hmmm….I wonder how "hate crimes" would apply if one "minority" happened to attack another "minority"? Say for example, a hispanic woman attacks a black woman. Or a gay black man attacks a gay hispanic man. Wonder how that would work out?
Borrow $5 from your mommy and go to a used bookstore and purchase a copy of Intentional Torts/ Assault and Battery. Then ask your mommy to whack you with it when you've finished.
absurd
oh so that was an intelligent rebuttal? For you to get a clue would be amazing. Gay people are not equal under the law, simple. Your argument, and the author's, holds no water until that is true. Once it is true then the equal treatment principle carries some weight.
"Finally, will hate crimes morph from the thoughts behind a violent crime to the thoughts themselves? Will we have to worry about saying the wrong thing about the wrong person for fear of it being misinterpreted as something that “could” lead to violence?"
This paragraph caught my eye, because I've been wondering the same thing ever since reading this article from American Spectator. Exactly how far away are we from "hate speech crimes" legislation?
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/10/20/fcc-chur...
LOL shine a light on the obvious why don't you! Sometimes when it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…..then…its' pretty much a given that its' a friggin duck. Some people will only resort to believing what they want to believe since it fits their own world view.
Well he's wrong. 80% of all animal species support a homosexual population.
Relish, excellent point. This is completely an anthema to the idea of everybody being EQUAL under the law. SPOT ON!
pish posh assumptions.
I doubt if your wife would be targeted for simply being your wife. ….Then again….
Who ever said that the average black Democrat was intelligent?
Andrea your trying to reason with a 2×4.
btw how's the weather down there?
Instead of basing the severity of violent crime on the victim's sexuality, how about just making it illegal to beat and murder someone? Oh yeah, it already is. Show me evidence that people who murder gays get lighter sentences than those who murder heterosexuals and then maybe you'll have a point. Prove to me that hate crime laws would have prevented a couple of meth-addicted thugs from killing Matthew Shepherd, and perhaps I'll agree with you. The fact is, the sole purpose of Hate Crime legislation is to get votes from gays over new laws that won't protect them from being murdered by lunatics, and to make lawyers rich through lawsuits over what someone was thinking.
By the way, in an average year, there are only 240 violent crimes motivated by sexual orientation. 27 of those are against heterosexuals. It's not quite the epidemic you make it out to be, The fact is, you're more likely to be beaten for no reason at all than you are for being gay.
Exactly. In fact, it was absurdities like this that pushed me towards conservatism after spending my youth as a moderate liberal. I remember watching John Stossel's resport on Free Speech on Campuses and was appalled to see those people who claimed to stand for Free Speech in the 60s become unable to listen to an opposing point of view, like say, being against affirmative action.
It really began to turn me off regarding the Left and pushed me towards the Right slowly but surely.
If we are all treated EQUALLY this kind of absurdity does not happen. I hope that those homosexuals in the Netherlands, and ones around the world start seeing the absurdity of it all and look more toward conservative values as the right way to go.
Virginia Senators Warner and Webb have endorsed hate-crime legislation, both state and federal, despite repeatedly pointing out to them the glaringly-obvious conflict with "equal protection" clauses of the U.S. Constitution. Once again the public servants, feeling independent and autonomous, feel no need to legislate persuant to the same Constitution to which they swore an oath to protect and defend. I took the liberty of advising them them that while they're entitled to their opinions, nobody wants to hear it and that the process of serving the people would be better facilitated if they kept their opinions to themselves. If not, they could look for employment elsewhere or, we could assist them. Their choice.
Why is a law making hate crimes illegal necessary? To deter hate crimes. Your speculations about where this law will lead, how prosecutors will use it, and whether it amounts to legislating what people think is ridiculous, irresponsible, and not pertinent to the issue. The simple truth is that creating penalties for a certain behavior deters that behavior. You must have an extremely limited imagination to not be able to think of a case where it is clear that a crime was committed on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Would prosecutors have to "read" Hitler's mind to know he hated Jews? Would they need to "read" a Klan member's mind to know he hates gays? Your childish speculations are of course natural, and they represent a downside that comes with any law; that lawyers will manipulate it to serve their own ends. It is here that we must trust that a new law we enact has enough positives to outweigh its potential negative effects. You're going to have to come up with a lot more than comical fears of mind-reading prosecutors (which rests on assumptions of stupid juries, stupid judges, and totally unethical, vindictive prosecutors) and crimes against people who are realized to be gay (or black, or Jewish, or Muslim, or women, or whatever) after the fact.
You are wrong. In many states, sexual orientation is included in "rights legislation" across the board. Because of that, the equal treatment/equal protection discussion is not only on the table, but is vital to upholding the spirit and the letter of the law. Even the most backwards states (socially) will include these protections in the next 10 or 20 years, so I'm afraid that this is a lost cause for the religiously-motivated bigots who are still out of touch on this issue.
I'm actually in the northwest, and it's cold and rainy. If you are referring to "hell," then I have no idea, because I don't believe that such a place exists.
That simply isn't true. In Wisconsin v. Mitchell (1993), the Supreme Court rules UNANIMOUSLY that motive is a valid consideration for the kinds of crimes that are covered by these laws.
"Traditionally, sentencing judges have considered a wide variety of factors in addition to evidence bearing on guilt in determining what sentence to impose on a convicted defendant…The defendant's motive for committing the offense is one important factor…Motives are most relevant when the trial judge sets the defendant's sentence, and it is not uncommon for a defendant to receive a minimum sentence because he was acting with good motives, or a rather high sentence because of his bad motives." ~ Chief Justice William Rhenquist, delivering the opinion of the Court.
Oh… wait… you were responding to the original author. Apologies. =)
They were integral in helping to throw out the Republican-controlled house, senate, and white house…. so they are obviously smarter than white Republicans, if we're to use that success-based criteria.
wow. i can't tell what is more astonishing…your complete ignorance as to how law works or your ridiculous attempts to justify your dislike of homosexuals via a lame argument against hate crimes.
just a heads up: all criminals are prosecuted not only on their action, but the thought behind the action. it's called intent and/or motive. if you didn't intend to kill someone but your actions resulted in their death, you are charged with manslaughter or if you shoot someone with the intent to kill but fail, you're charged with ATTEMPTED MURDER (attempted denotes your INTENT). and even your unintentional action can be considered murder (if an assault results in a death). this is also why we have DEGREES of murder. depending on your intent (your thought and reason behind the crime) the charge you receive will dictate the severity of the penalty. the judge (and/or jury) can also mitigate your sentence depending on how they perceive your intent. even how you are charged with a drug offense is mitigated by your intent (a gram of marijuana is typically considered for personal use…but if you have a pound of weed you could be charged with INTENT to distribute). seriously, your thought police argument is so stupid it almost hurts to offer a rebuttal.
as to your claim that crime is simply a crime: again, your ignorance is simply astounding. did you even do 5 minutes worth of research into how criminals are charged or were you so concerned with making a statement about matthew shepard (an exploitation in its own right) you forgot about intellectual integrity?
single criminal acts rarely receive single line indictments. if my drunk ass gets into a fight and this fight results in the death of another person, do you think i will simply be charged with murder? no, i'll also be charged with assault, disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, public drunkenness, and various other charges…why? to make sure that if i skate on one charge there will be some sort of penalty for my actions. this string of charges also gives prosecutors leverage in negotiating pleas. and this is exactly why there are hate crime laws. the federal and state governments pass these laws in order to make sure if a local municipality acts in a corrupt manner to cover up a race, gender, sexual orientation based crime they have the tools to come in and punish the perps. or, because hate motivated crimes tend to be especially brutal or damaging to communities, an extra charge and penalty is deserving. as another poster pointed out, if i were to spray paint a swastika on a synagogue, should i simply be charged with vandalism? is the intent (there's that word again) behind my action more destructive and harmful than spraying "Bob was here" on a wall? law is not supposed to be black and white. if it were we might as well forget about the last 230 years of american history and all hail the queen. hate crime legislation is not a conspiracy to give gay people power to crush the hetero community. do you honestly believe that? do you honestly believe that cops are so dumb that they won't ask the other people in a bar (to use your example) whether or not the perp in a fight was screaming slurs? seriously?
No what is disrespectful and immature is for Davemichigan to make his not so subtle insinuations about the type of people who were posting based on the fact that some of them might be Fox News viewers. When he wrote "BTW, hadn't realized what kind of site this way – Fox News post and all. I'm outta here." his meaning was clear; that the posters are all bigots and haters merely because they choose one news source over another. This gross and hateful stereotyping is what the left excels at, sometimes blatant and sometimes subtle like Dave, and when I see it I am going to call them what they are. If leftists insist on portraying all conservatives as uneducated, hate filled bigots merely because we have disagreements on political and social issues, then I will treat them like the petulant children that they are when they reveal their hypocrisy.
"Why should gays and blacks be given protected status while others are not?"
A Protected Class is afforded that status due to the demonstrable presence of systemic invidious discriminations against them. The people in these classes tend to be victimized more frequently than those in non-protected classes.
Fine. You are BOTH disrespectful and immature. How's that? You are correct on one point. Not all Fox viewers are bigots. I sometimes watch it, as I enjoy good comedy, and I'm most certainly not a bigot. That said, there is a distinct difference between disapproval aimed at the hegemony, and disapproval aimed at a historically-persecuted minority class. And if you don't understand that difference, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
So you are opposed to affirmative action, the progressive income tax, subsidies to farmers, government support of unions and various other government programs that favor some people or groups of people over others? Please, educate yourself about what equality under the law is and what it is not. Maybe try reading some of the Enlightenment philosophers or maybe some of the economic theorists from the Austrian School of Economics. Once you have educated yourself about what the classical liberal theorists (our Founding Fathers were some) meant by equality under the law and what are rights and what are not, then you may come back and debate me about such subjects. Otherwise, everything you have to add will simply be equivalent to foot stamping and huffing and puffing about life not being fair.
"What happened to everyone created equal?"
That's a very good question. Unfortunately, not everyone in our society is TREATED equally, thus making it necessary for us to institute laws that protect the vicitims of that treatment. In a society where gay people (for example) are up to seven times more likely (according to DOJ statistics) to be the victim of a violent, identity-motivated crime, there is a compelling interest of the State to take extra steps to discourage those who would intentionally choose to target them.
"Is it right that if a white, heterosexual male is attacked, his attacker may only get a couple years in jail vs. a white, homosexual male is attacked and his attacker gets 15 years because he happens to be gay??"
That isn't right…but that isn't really how these laws work (or are supposed to, anyway). If someone attacks a victim who just "happens to be gay," then (in theory) there isn't a hate crime. The hate crime only occurs if the attacker SET OUT to attack a gay person. Usually, these laws have a rather high standard of demonstrating intent before they kick in. Unfortunately, that fact is usually overlooked in the furor over the half-informed outrage that seems to follow these issues.
You are correct as to legal precedent. And, my comments were not. Will read Mitchell more closely – still, something offensive in this notion.
"Whatever happened to equal treatment under the law?"
Another good question. Unfortunately, the fact that not all citizens ARE treated equally makes it necessary for the law to act in a manner that discourages the systemic inequalities in our society.
"Why does it matter if I'm a white heterosexual Christian male or a black Muslim bisexual female or a multicultural transgendered Buddhist."
It doesn't matter. But it DOES matter if you make a pre-meditated decision to target "white heterosexual Christian male[s]" or "black Muslim bisexual female[s]" or "multicultural transgendered Buddhist[s]" for your violent outbursts. Our jurisprudence has traditionally and consistently taken motive into account in the dispensation of punishments.
You are incorrect. Crime rates of incidents of this nature have been decreasing for many years. If you want to sift through the exact numbers, have at it: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvusst.htm
These highly-publicized, infrequent incidents that you have referenced are emotionally supportive to your point-of-view, but they are not factually indicative of what is actually happening in this country.
Sorry, but who are you replying to here?
Jesse Dirkhising was unavailable for comment on this story …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jesse_Dirk...
Never heard of him. Besides, homosexuality isn't an ideology, so what one gay person said isn't necessarily relevent.
Motive is not an element of crime, and never has been. Let's not start now. We don't need special classes of citizens. We don't need federal authorities punishing crimes that don't fall within Constitutional federal jurisdiction, either. What's the justification for federalizing "hate crimes," anyway? No one bothered making any, I suppose.
Wow, shouting and another not so subtle insult at Fox and its viewers. You could not help yourself, which makes my point about the left being almost entirely incapable of carrying on an honest debate about issues without having to resort to ridicule or snarkiness. BRAVO. And so I guess you believe reverse persecution is allowed? Step out of your post-modern, post-colonial, marxist/feminist worldview and go back to the Constitution. Although imperfectly followed the intent was to create a society where all were equal under the law, which meant if a law was passed then theoretically all were subjct to its provisions. The Constitution also had self-correcting mechanisms wherein refinements could be made in order to try to fully realize the ideal of equality under the law. The Founding Fathers did not envision a government that would pass one law for one "class" or group and another law for a different "class" or group. That is called arbitrary law and is equivalent to despotism. Please educate yourself before you presume to educate me.
Homosexuals can indeed marry in all 50 states. They just can't marry members of the same gender. Neither can heterosexuals, for that matter. I don't see how "Hate Crime" laws would change that.
The fact is, gay people are equal under the law in every state of the union. Gay COUPLES aren't. That's because the Constitution guarantees individual rights, not couple's rights. The Declaration of Independence says "All Men Are Created Equal", not all couples.
It was a reply to Robert C.
I wasn't shouting, and whatever snarkiness you find in our posts is tempered by the fact that you consider anyone with whom you personally disagree to be uneducated. I'm not sure how, specifically, you define a "post-modern, post-colonial, marxist/feminist worldview, nor why you would apply that to what you perceive my personal political paradigm to be. The constitution was a flawed document, which is why we have historically amended it, in response to changing times, changing demographics, or re-interpretations of the founder's intent. Initially, it's tomes of equality were non-inclusive of Blacks or Women (unless you happened to reside in New Jersey in the late 1790's when, for a brief period, both were allowed to vote under certain circumstances). Our entire history has been a slow march towards inclusion, and that march is now primarily focusing on the inclusion of gays and lesbians… arguably the last minority group in this country without full equal, legal rights. The Founding Fathers didn't envision a whole host of events, which is why we, the people, must always be vigilant in our constant efforts to expand and celebrate the best elements of the theoretically sagely words of Jefferson, et al.
With regards to Fox news…. look, no self-respecting conservative should ally themselves with this joke of a network. It's partisan bias is so blatant, and it's disregard for journalistic integrity is so frequent, that it might as well have been a state-run network from 2001-2006…. something diametrically opposed to the conservative political philosophy. The following is just one of HUNDREDS of sites devoted to picking apart this pathetic veil of a "news organization." http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/networks/foxnews/fox...
It is worthy of all the ridicule it receives and then some, if for no other reason than, in this internet age, journalistic integrity should be the prime focus of any true news organization, if only to separate themselves from… well….. people like us on sites like this…
andrea2929 wrote:
[Even the most backwards states (socially) will include these protections in the next 10 or 20 years, so I'm afraid that this is a lost cause for the religiously-motivated bigots who are still out of touch on this issue.]
In related news…
Secular Morehouse College's Dress Code Bans Cross Dressing and Sagging Pants:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/17/college.dress.co...
Just a reminder that even secular institutions can view a guy in a dress as being pretty abnormal.
Ironically, a surprising number of Black homosexuals approve this ban. Lesbian blogger Sophia Rose explained it this way:
"Morehouse College has a rich tradition of educating and training black men to be leaders. A man can’t lead other men wearing a dress."
http://sandrarose.com/2009/10/19/morehouse-under-...
Amen to that.
Boy, she isn't kidding…
You have confused cross-dressing with homosexuality. Cross-dressing is primarily a heterosexual phenomenon. Only 5-10 percent of cross-dressers identify as gay. Nice try though….
Obviously those of you who are against hate crime legislation have absolutely ZERO idea about what it is like to be hunted in the streets of your very own neighborhoods.
Gay Americans do.
In every town, in every city, and on nearly every street of this 'great' nation.
Morality indeed, folks. Morality indeed.
The last time I checked, systemic discrimination against people on the basis of race, religion, etc. was outlawed in full by the mid-1960's. Further, when discussing individual crimes that involve so-called protected classes, other unrelated victimization of people of the same classes should not enter the equation. I have no doubt that your protected class definition is accepted by those who advocate hate crimes laws. I'm questioning whether previous, unrelated offenses committed by other people should be taken into account when prosecuting someone else for a separate offense. In our system we do not hold people responsible for the actions of others.
Ok, but the federal government issues different tax statuses to married couples…. something that gay couples aren't allowed to take advantage of. The founding fathers didn't include marriage rights or income tax considerations in the constitution, but that didn't stop our federal government form involving itself in both matters. For this reason, gay couples are still undeniably discriminated against financially.
Additionally, their "all men are created equal" meant, in that time, all white, landowning males. So…. yeah… there's that.
Quick: when I say “Matthew Shepard,” what do you think? A man killed because he was gay? Or just some poor sap in the wrong place at the wrong time? More on that in a minute.
Stupid article, dumb catch line to begin with. Yes, it's only obvious if it's a hate crime they should be prosecuted under hate crime laws. I don't know enough about this case, but if it can be proven hate was the cause, then this is a no brainer law. It will be passed, and good.
All the crimes you mentioned are at the core "vandalism" and should be treated as such. But painting a swastika on a synagogue wall would also come under the context of aggravated or malicious harassment. So you'd already be seeing more severe punishment for the swastika. This contention that people who burn crosses or beat up gays get off with a slap on the wrist is a load of hooey.
Look, do a cursory study of all of the social movements in this country's history, and you will find that there has always been an effort by the judiciary to be proactive against a reactionary public who, because of their collective prejudice, are hesitant to voluntarily be respectful of the law, either philosophically, or (in this case) physically. A historically-oppressed group, like homosexuals, are not asking for MORE rights, particularly when they don't even have equal rights yet. Until the message is clear that crimes motivated by this kind of bigoted mentality are just as bad as any other crime, we need these legal distinction in place. I realize that it's hard to psychologically understand this if you are a member of the hegemony (i.e. white hetero male), so maybe you just need to trust us on this significant difference and realize that because you don't know what it's like to be a minority, you *might* not have a completely objective grasp on the legal or personal implications of crimes of this nature.
I find most people incredibly uneducated not because they disagree with me but because most of them are terribly inconsistent in their beliefs and cannot justify those beliefs with any sort of logical argument. Case in point, your Opinion of Fox News. I am sure you believe ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NPR, the New York Times etc. are all paradigms of truth and journalistic integrity. Why, because they vomit out verbatim what you believe is true. You despise Fox and other news sources because they dare to promote a different view and to question the very foundations of your beliefs. The left is fond of claiming they are the defenders of equal rights, justice and fairness; however, all they promote is the government having the power to pick who are the winners and who are the losers.
There is hardly one aspect of the Democrat party that resembles the classical liberal philosophy upon which this country was founded. If you would avail yourself of primary source material instead of the modern interpretations of classical liberal philosophy you would understand where you err. And if you do not even understand the own origins of your beliefs, those I cited previously, then you have either not done any self-examination of your belief system or any serious study of the history of philosophy. And really, if you are going to try to tell me what "conservative" philosophy should be perhaps you could tell me what historical "conservative" philosophers have most influenced modern "conservative" thought. And no, Rand and Reagan or any other politicians do not count.
If you have ever read any of my posts on other subjects, you would know that I lambast the Democrats as much as I do the Republicans, for the exact reason that you stated. This is a point on which we totally agree. The Democratic party is no longer a "classically liberal" party, which is why I haven't voted for them since 1992. So let's leave that argument aside.
The conservatives that I would reference are figures like Goldwater, George Will, William F. Buckley, and Pat Buchanan, for example.
I despise FOX news because they completely lack journalistic integrity, yet pass themselves off as an unbiased news source. Of all the other sources you listed above, the only one I listen to is NPR. Frankly, I'll take the BBC over any of them, anyday.
And in case you forgot, we, the people, pick the winners and losers. The government, in theory, only does our bidding. Or have we abandoned Democracy too?
Haven't read this yet so hope I'm not parroting anyone.
The purpose of a hate crime bill was to ENSURE that crimes are persecuetd to the full extent of the law. The TRUTH is that they weren't-a lot of red neck country sheriffs were not properly persecuting violence against gays.
The funny thing is-there is hate crime legislation for religion-the far right had no problem with this legislation, but they are up in arms about protecting gays. Sad and misguided religious folk…
The problem is that the masses cannot be trusted (just as in letting the sheep masses vote on civil rights)-there is too much hatred and ignorance within half the country. So, hate crime legislatuion ensures the perps are properly persecuted ot the full extent of the law.
Hope that's clear now. Maybe some day we won't need such protection for minorities. Until that day, these laws are a good idea
Since most people who commit acts of violence against gays are themselves latent homosexuals, would that make "hate crimes" actually "love crimes"?
All gay Americans know what it's like?
Sorry, I live near NYC and I've never had a gay friend get hunted down.
I've never recalled seeing any orange-vested homophobes roaming Ventura Boulevard but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough.
…as are those who enjoy pulling baseless statistics out of their ass.
That's a hoot. You're telling us that someone who is determined to brutally murder another human being might hesitate if there's a chance they could get a more severe sentence than life in prison or the death penalty. Here's a news flash for you: The animals who dragged that Black man to death in Texas a few years ago LAUGHED as their death sentences were read. People who commit those types of crimes aren't normal human beings who might be swayed from violence if they knew others frowned upon it…they're sociopaths!
So is every gay person who has a crime committed against them a victim of a hate crime? No.
So if I get mugged because I'm white and Irish, I can call it a hate crime, right?
"just a heads up: all criminals are prosecuted not only on their action, but the thought behind the action. it's called intent and/or motive."
You're correct. We already HAVE "hate crime" laws. A man who kills his neighbor just because he hates him will likely get a more severe punishment than one who kills him because he caught him sleeping with his wife. So what's the point of moot legislation that won't do anything to protect gays or other minorities? For one, to give Democrats something to demagogue with. The gay community is all behind it because it furthers the normalization of their lifestyle – If gays get special protection under the law simply because they are gay, then there must not be anything wrong with it. But mostly, it's just to make lawyers rich litigating over what thoughts are inside peoples' heads.
Who cares why someone is targeted?
It is an assault or battery.
Would it make you feel better if the victim was tageted because they were a weak looking white female?
How about a special crime against attacking week,vulnerable victims,that would go alot further to stem the violence…but then again,those being charged would be mostly blacks so this would be a inconvenient politically incorrect law.
Also,how are you to differentiate if a gay man who was robbed and beaten was attacked for being gay and not for the wad of cash that he had displayed at the store earlier?
The whole thing is a can of worms that if allowed to pass will only generate hate towrds the "special people" with "special protections".
Please stop twisting the word gay which at one time was a legitimate word. These people are not gay. They are homosexual perverts. This Shepard guy would have died from AIDS anyway. The meth freaks who killed him are now in prison so case closed. By the way, I am free to think and express what I want. If the perverts do not like it then tough. Tell them to stop sodomizing each other and children, and they will not be targets of "hate".
If I wanted to actually increase hate crimes,acrimony and disgust amongst different groups in this nation,I would enact laws which give extra penalties to certain groups while leaving other groups without it.
That will generate true hatred and maybe even more physical assaults.
Regarding some of these laws,I have wonder if this is the covert plan.
There were a few thousand gays being herded like cattle down the main street of my city a few weeks ago. A terrible sight to behold. Those who couldn't march were forced to ride upon rainbow colored floats wearing giant feathery hats.
What has become of my country?
Knowing that there are approximately 35,000 rapes of white women in the US each year by black males and there are sometimes zero(0) rapes of black females by whites,I would much rather see these policies directed towards another group who are more vulnerable than gay men.
But I guess protecting whites-whether female or male-isn't trendy and hip.
Ah. So in order to balance out the discrimination against gays in one aspect of our society, it's necessary to discriminate against straights in other areas.
Kind of like affirmative action. And it makes perfect sense to those who see Americans not as individuals, but as members of oppressed victims' groups.
And up to 40 percent are British men out for a few laughs.
According to the FBI, of all so-called "hate crimes" committed in 2007 (a grand total of 9535, violent and non-violent), only 16% were related to sexual orientation. Most of those hate crimes were property damage & vandalism. The fact is, you're more likely to be carjacked than a victim of a "hate crime". Yet the leftie media and gay activists want us to think there is a hate crime epidemic requiring vast amounts of litigation, legislation, and demagoguery. Why is that?
heh….
73% of dogs dine on their own feces. What point were we making again?
Well, since the "race card" doesn't carry the same weight due to the over use and abuse of it, the left can start playing the "gay card". Fun times ahead!
"But I guess protecting whites-whether female or male-isn't trendy and hip."
Now you're learning.
But white women actually do get special protection/attention.. just drop by a (un)family court sometime…they love white women there.
Gay couples, and unmarried hetero couples.
Wow, really? The point being made is murder is murder, and done with hate, regardless of who is being murdered. Why should the race, ethnicity, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc. etc. make the murder worse for one than it is another?
Beartooth, you obviously didn't suffer any permanent damage to your mental faculties because that was one of the best posts I've seen in a while. Well done!
And if they are murdering you for any other reason than "hate", they deserve a lighter sentence.
but she'd be dead just the same, wouldn't she?
Here's a thought; murder isn't a crime of love.
Idiot.
Married couples get tax breaks for the same reason anyone does – somewhere along the line, a politician wanted to get votes from them. It has nothing to do with equality, because gays can enjoy the same tax breaks. All they have to do is marry members of the opposite gender. If you don't, that's your choice. Now if there was a law that said all gays must pay higher taxes, then we'd be talking about discrimination.
Well, I'd be hard pressed to find any ex-BLACK organizations in America.
By contrast, ex-gay groups like Exodus and PFOX keep popping up all over the place.
Hence, until you can provide scientific evidence instead of emotional rhetoric, many Black people aren't going to swallow the "gay rights = civil rights" line.
And don't forget we made Prop. 8 a success!
Frankly, I've joked that McDonnell could get even more Black Virginians to vote for him by simply pointing out their shared support for real marriage (one man, one woman).
He could also point out that Deeds wants to jack up Black people's taxes and make them poorer.
Perez Hilton learned the hard way that homosexual activists like HRC will ignore your plight if you get slugged by a Black guy.
As a member of a minority (Black), my mother had this to say about the "No to 8" guys rioting in California last year:
"Why do they spend millions to promote a deviant lifestyle when they could be feeding starving kids in Africa?"
That is a good point. You NEVER see any homosexual rights groups use their great wealth to help the needy to any large scale extent. But they somehow find millions of dollars to indoctrinate unsuspecting kids.
How very Scrooge of the homosexual activists.
robert c wrote:
[Borrow $5 from your mommy and go to a used bookstore and purchase a copy of Intentional Torts/ Assault and Battery. Then ask your mommy to whack you with it when you've finished.]
HATE CRIME!
andrea2929 wrote:
[Additionally, their "all men are created equal" meant, in that time, all white, landowning males. So.... yeah... there's that. ]
And I bet there were those of the homosexual lifestyle among said wealthy White male landowners.
Just pointing out why the "history of gay oppression" argument is flawed.
@robert c
Actually, an equal number of Black Republicans also dismiss the equation of homosexuality to skin color.
So, declaring homosexuality as immoral is not just Black Democrat thing.
Actually, I won't. Subtle difference.
I know even if I do find something — that one little thing you demand — the evasions and denials will start or you'll pretend whatever I find doesn't count.
So go on, pretend my refusal means something beyond getting sick and tired of dealing with people like you. Gundam 00 on YouTube is a better way to waste time.
And, what if – what if – you didn’t even do it? What if it’s a case of mistaken identity, which can and does (unfortunately) happen?
Earlier in the article:
I’m all for prosecuting criminals for their acts, especially violent criminals. I’m pro-death penalty, if truth be told. I figure that if you deliberately take someone else’s life, you should pay by forfeiting yours. Not very PC of me, but there you have it.
Woo hoo! Extra time for someone who bashes a fag is a terrible thing, but killing the wrong guy is not. A high-quality argument there.
The question is a non sequitur, since such crimes are not typically motivated by identity, and thus would not be covered by hate crime legislation. But even your question was relevant, I doubt that it is true, and certainly haven't seen any credible research that would support your suggested premise of a causal relationship.
While I agree with the idea that, in general, hate crimes legislation is unnecessary and undesirable, "thoughts" behind crimes already matter; criminal intent is the distinction between manslaughter and homicide, and "intent" — motivation — is most definitely a thought.
If only the murder of Jesse Dirkhising got the same outrage from the thought police:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29...
Big hollywood bullshit.
Why are you so afraid of gays?
nicky,
Your assumption is bullshit on stilts. Why are you so afraid of people questioning double standards?
Must be a liberal thing.
Yes, we must exclude any evidence that homosexuality is not natural, so if we see any such evidence, we immediately discout the source.
Gays are NOT forbidden to marry.
What name should be given for a crime committed against someone for being heterosexual? asexual? etc. What would you call a crime if the perpetrator(s) believed that they were doing it for the victem's own good? If it is believed that it can be shown whether or not the perpetrator did or did not hate the victim, why not whether or not the perpetrator hated or loved the victim? And, therefore, why should not people going around committing crimes agains people for their own good, profit by it?
I'm sorry dear, you can't logically argue for the death penalty, and also admit that mistaken identity is common.
most molesters r str8
You must be logged in to post a comment.