Blacklisted Again: Three Times Not The Charm
by Orson BeanWhat is it with me? I seem to be an incorrigible black-listee.
Back in the fifties I was the hot, young comic on CBS and a regular on The Ed Sullivan Show. I was also starring in shows on Broadway and acting in dramatic programs on television. Those were the glory days of television. It was like theater. It was live. If an actor forgot a line, he improvised. There was an immediacy to it. Even mediocre programs had the excitement of being live
I was all over the place. A show called Broadway TV Theater put on plays five times a week, live — the same play, Monday through Friday at eight o’clock . Wonderful old chestnuts like Three Men on a Horse and The Cat and the Canary (I played the part that Bob Hope had originated).
I had come to New York seeking my fortune after a few years of honing my craft as a stand-up on the road.
I had played the Moose Hall in Altoona and the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Fall River. There were no comedy clubs in those days where people walk in laughing at the doorman. This was rough training ground: “You stink! Bring out the stripper!” Try coming up with an ad lib in response to that. I wrote all my own material and tried it out in front of hostile audiences who had been trained to heckle the emcee. I had a crew cut and wore a three button suit. My opening line was, “My name is Orson Bean, Harvard ’48 (pause), Yale nothing.”
Only the band laughed: “You’re too hip for the room, man.” I didn’t give up.
When I arrived in The City, I walked into a famous supper club called The Blue Angel on East 55th Street. It was the middle of the afternoon and the boss was sitting there counting the previous night’s take. I didn’t know it wasn’t done that way, that you had to have a manager. The boss looked up. “What do you want?”
“I’m a comic,” I said.
“Say something funny.”
“Belly button.”
The boss sat there looking at me, a half smile on his face. “Come back tonight and I’ll put you on. I’m short an act.”
I got howls. All the stuff I’d been trying out in Boston, Philly, Pittsburgh and Baltimore started working. I was hip enough for the room. Walter Winchell, the powerful gossip columnist for the Daily Mirror was in the club that night. God was looking after me long before I ever believed in Him. Winchell printed a full paragraph about me in his column: “His name is Orson Bean. We never heard of him either…. The people applauded for four bows.”
That was 1950. By 1956 I had starred in a number of Broadway shows, after which I’d hop on a bicycle and make my way through the traffic in time to go on at 11:30 in the Blue Angel. I had also become very politically aware. I was a heartfelt liberal (all of us young idealists in their twenties were) and very upset over the black-listing of actors and writers whose views differed from the mainstream attitudes that prevailed. The Cold War was raging and the Rosenbergs had been executed as spies (I had a Communist girlfriend who took me to Union Square on the night they were put to death, where a vigil was held by left wing sympathizers).
Well known actors began disappearing from the television screen. An outfit called Red Channels set up what was basically a protection racket which forced the producers of TV shows to pay a fee to “clear” their casts as politically acceptable. I became active in the performers’ union, AFTRA. Some actors supported the blacklist, believing that Moscow had input into what American audiences saw and heard on television and movie screens. Others saw it as an incursion into freedom of expression. The union meetings were so “charged” that performers sat on the left or right side of the union hall to show their political leanings.
A group of us got together to form a slate of candidates to run for union office and see if we could combat the blacklist , without appearing to give in to the extreme pro-Communist block. We called ourselves “The Middle of the Road Slate” and we won a smashing victory. The New York Times wrote that we had dealt the blacklist a stunning blow. I was elated. A few days later, I got a call from Ed Sullivan. “Have you seen the Red Channels news letter,” he asked me? The black-listers, furious at our success, had dug up some meetings which I had let my girlfriend drag me to. That’s all it took, apparently. I could feel the blood draining out of my face. “I’m afraid the booking next Sunday is out. I’ll help you when I can.”
Overnight, my television career evaporated. I saw actors cross the street when they saw me coming so as not to be seen talking to me. That’s how toxic the times were.
Once again, God came to my rescue and I was cast in a Broadway play, Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter, in which I played opposite Jayne Mansfield and Walter Matthau. The blacklist never hit Broadway because there were no sponsors involved. (Campbells Soup black-listed actors, CBS just agreed to look the other way.) The play ran a year and on the day it closed, Ed Sullivan, true to his word, called me up. “I think things have cleared up enough that I can book you again,” he said. And that’s what he did. My personal blacklist had ended. My career as a stand-up was basically over, though. I had become a Person of the Theater.
Time went by and the sixties arrived, bringing Vietnam with them. I had won a Theater World Award and been nominated for a Tony. I had starred in a hit play, Never Too Late, which ran for over two years. I was on panel shows in the afternoon and I worked in the theater at night. I had become the permanent guest host of the Tonight Show, a task I performed over a hundred times. I also made a handsome living on the side doing the voice-overs for TV commercials. My most prestigious gig was as the spokesperson for Manufacturers Hanover Bank.
But Vietnam loomed over everything. I became convinced that a liberal Democrat like Hubert Humphrey could not bring an end to the war without having the “soft on Communism” accusation thrown at him. To the horror of my liberal friends, I signed a petition supporting Richard Nixon. When it appeared in The New York Times, the (liberal) agency which handled the bank’s advertising was outraged at what I’d done. “The son of a bitch is a fascist,” said the exec in charge, and overnight I was taken off the account and my voice-over career dried up.
Ol’ Devil Blacklist had struck again.
Now we jump ahead to today. Prop. 8 is on the ballot: marriage should be between a man and a woman. (Jerry Brown had rearranged the wording to confuse the issue, but that’s what it meant.) I agree with that proposition. What’s ideal for kids is to have a loving mom and dad. I know a lot of people don’t think so. They put the rights of the grown-ups first. Or they say two women or two men are just as good. Or a single parent. In New Jersey, judges have ruled that a same-sex couple or a single person applying to adopt must be given the same place in line as a married man and woman. I think that’s bad for kids. This makes me homophobic? I’m in show business. Half the people in my life are gay. I’ve attended two same-sex wedding ceremonies this year, one of them for a cousin. I wish them all the happiness in the world. But the law has to uphold what’s ideal.
So I sent some dough in to support Prop. 8. It never occurred to me that I was asking for trouble. I was. The L.A, Times outed me on their web site. I received pictures of swastikas and photos of the Ku Klux Klan in the mail. The theater company I belong to was threatened with a boycott so long as I remained a member. One of the threateners, a lesbian, included a phone number in the email she sent to the theater. So I called her up.
“This is Orson Bean,” I said when she picked up the phone. There was a long pause and then she said, “Yes?” I told her why I had supported the proposition and then added that I hadn’t stopped to think how people like she must feel hurt by its passage. “I’m sorry I hurt you,” I said. “I hadn’t thought about that and I apologize.” She then proceeded to vent her feelings for five minutes or so, telling me how she and her partner had been together for years and loved each other, etc. I just listened. And at the end of it, she told me how she’d always liked me on the old game shows and thanked me for calling and said she wouldn’t boycott the theater company.
Other emails did not include a phone number. They told me they’d do their best to see that I was through working in the business. So, here we go again. It isn’t called McCarthyism when it’s done by people on the left to people on the right. But it’s just as vicious as it was in the fifties and sixties. People are being deprived of the right to make a living because they contributed a few bucks to a political cause.
Where’s the liberal outrage?
Personally, I’m used to it; that happens after a while. If I don’t work for a time, that’s OK. But I feel sorry for the guy who lost his job running that theater company in Sacramento. And I feel sorry for the country.
Seventy percent of African-American voters (all of whom, I’m sure, went for Obama) cast a ballot in favor of Prop. 8. They know it’s not a civil rights issue. They believe in family values in that community. They’ve seen first hand what the assault on marriage results in. That’s what Prop. 8 is trying to stave off: an attack on the institution of marriage itself. It’s not about rights. Gay people already have all the rights of marriage; they’ve fought hard for them and they deserve them. What they want now is the WORD. And when a word means everything, it means nothing.
What’s going on in the streets these days is nothing less than a war on democracy itself. Both sides fought hard to win that vote. The anti Prop .8 side out-spent the other side and mustered every celebrity they could find to make their case. They fought long and hard… and they lost. And now they riot and attack and sling mud and black-list to protest the outcome of an honest election, the results of which they call “the tyranny of the majority”. What?!
I’m a comic but this ain’t funny. God forbid democracy loses out around here and people stop living with the results of elections. In totalitarian countries like Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Soviet Union, (and today in Saudi Arabia and Iran, to name just two of many), they put gay guys in jail. And not fun jails like in Turkey, either.
We’d better be careful how we act out there in the streets these days.
Orson Bean’s new book M@il For Mikey is published by Barricade Books
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454 Comments
Um Nicholas sorry but while homosexuality was "accepted" in Ancient Rome, I don't find any evidence that marriage between two men was allowed. Hadrian had that boy that killed himself in the Nile. But Gay Marriage in Rome? I have studied the Romans for a long time, and in fact as a civilization they did so much to be admired however Gay Marriage? Nope. If you had brought that up to Augustus he would have probably had you exiled then poisioned. Doesn't make sense with the true conservativeness that the Romans lived by. What I mean by that is the Augustan reforms. Read about that stuff. Interesting.
And what I mean by Rome being a civilization to be admired I am talking in practical terms: Concret for instance. Its cheap, you can use it for anything and it lasts. They invented that. The Aquaducts, the fact that they basically invented modern like military discipline. Amazing people. Brutal but you gotta give props where props are deserved.
Hatred is sorry, anytime anywhere. Simply telling a person you don’t want this in this country because of their views isn’t hatred but prudent when their views hurt the country. They always have a chance to change their views by education.
Hopefully, you will change your views too.
Of course, this is a civil rights issue because it deals with genetic predispositions you are born with, just like being African-American, and the law will change in the fullness of time back to what it was before 8 and then onto even more true Christian equality. Sure, it’s wrong for people to send you hate mail; there are haters on both sides, only there’s one side in this country more willing to use hate and prejudice and that’s the conservative/neo-con side. Too bad for them. As long as they persist, hatred will make gains in this country.
Eventually, hatred masquerading in the form of “it’s not a civil rights issue” will be eliminated but it will take time and of course, it will raise its ugly head on some other issue. You’ll figure things out eventually, even if you’re wrongly blacklisted when you do.
And yes, prop 8 proves that hatred sometimes does win out. But only temporarily when it can fool people into thinking it’s not hatred or prejudice.
“You stink! Bring out the stripper!”
Sorry Sir, your Mom called and said she couldn’t make it.
What a tour of the backlash of irrational hatred – the main killer of civilization. When people are determined to hate, I’m not sure there’s much you can do but keep speaking out. The amnesia of history seems widespread these days – I’m glad you’re there to keep speaking out, Orson.
Great essay, Mr. Bean. Take heart, first poster. Maybe proposition 9 will state that any lesbian with facial hair who has a child will be deemed male.
I wish people would stop pretending that is an established fact. The science on the subject is anything but settled. That doesn’t necessarily mean that gay marriage isn’t a civil rights issue, but let’s have some intellectual honesty here.
Actually, it would be a vast improvement if Iran started jailing gay men, instead of killing them. I think we can all agree that’s a human rights issue…
I keep my politics and my business separated. Perhaps that is cowardly, but it certainly affects the bottom line. Being black listed is no fun, I have been there and done that. When the long knives of political correctness come out, they can peel back your layers and find you, no matter how circumspect you have been.
You will get savaged for your Prop 8 stand, because “traditional marriage” is no defense for people who are on a tear to force society to accept their differences. Nothing else you wrote is of consequence to them.
This site is going to be splashed with insults and meaner spirited attacks, because it is taking on the popular culture of Hollywood and the elites who hold the inquisitions and decide who should be burned at the stake for being politically incorrect. They are acolytes of diversity while crushing dissent. Amazing; the whole lot of them.
Being homosexual isn’t a genetic predisposition, like being black, it’s a choice just as surely as choosing which movie to go see. I’ve come across too many stories about people on the Left becoming unhinged to believe it’s the conservatives who are more willing to spew hatred and prejudice. We’ve got haters on the right, but that sub-group is rare.
Hatred will not make gains in this country if conservatives persist in fighting for things like Proposition 8; on the contrary, if the left persists in their efforts to block Proposition 8, hatred will make gains.
Okay, I’m confused: Did Prop 8 say that gays do not have the same legal rights as straights where marriage is concerned, or can gays still have civil unions, and get all of the legal stuff, but marriage, the word, is “defined” as between a man an a woman? ‘Cause to me that sounds as if gays can still have a civil union and call it marriage, and for but the actual word “marriage” it is, and religious folk can still say “marriage” is between a man an a woman, how is this a problem?
For the last time: The Gay Rights Movement is not the same as the Black Civil Rights Movement.
Gays and white women need to stop acting as if they have been oppressed in this country. They have faced nothing worse than Italians, Irish, or Germans faced. It’snot like gays couldn’t hide their gayness.
Being gay is not a genetic predisposition…strictly. The difference between heritable traits and inherited traits is the key to understanding, but really, no one takes the time to understand them.
Neither is being gay a “choice”, in the crude sense of usage, although some gays do claim to have chosen their lifestyle.
The fact is that homosexuality is a complex mingling of nature and nurture…as are every one of us, in whatever form our lives take.
But it cannot be a genetically inherited trait, as it carries no survival value for offspring. No advantage for continuation. Simply put, it is something other than genetic.
Gays should and do have civil rights. Churches have been lax on standards for marriage in the past century. What we see happening now is the confluence of far more social factors than simply “civil rights”.
What a life! What a man! Thank you Mr. Bean. You were always my favorite panelist on “To Tell The Truth.” I’ve really enjoyed hearing you again on the Dennis Miller show (your Jayne Mansfield anecdote was dynamite).
Oh, wow… three different blacklists over three different burning issues, and for causes all over the political spectrum.
You know, you could speak out against the bogus science involved in the current global warming ruckus – and you’d have a chance to be blacklisted again, and make it four-all. Seriously, you seem to exert a quasi-attraction for blacklists, may as well have some fun with it!
To GMKNOBL:
You must tell us what law school you attended.
Being gay is the same as being black? Judging by the vote on Prop 8, it doesn’t appear that the black community agrees with you.
Having a genetic predisposition transforms itself into a civil rights issue?
Does this include men who are predisposed to have sex with children? What if one is predisposed to hate gay people, or send hate mail, or kill small animals, or have cancer?
Back to the drawing board, counsellor.
Well said, Orson.
It has often been said that ‘the man that stands for nothing, will fall for anything.’
We should all have a right to vote our conscience without the fear of reprisal by the government or political groups.
If we cannot do that, then our elections will become as meaningless as the 100% of votes cast for Saddam Hussein in his elections.
I have always considered you a clever comic and you have proven that you are just as clever when it comes to politics.
Thanks again and best of luck.
Agent J –
As Dennis Miller would say: BEAUTIFUL, baby.
Agent J –
As Dennis Miller would say:
BEAUTIFUL, baby.
How can Mr. Bean have lived so long and missed the basic truth of what he’s seen? GMKNOBL gets it. Hate = standing in the way of left wing advancement. It’s all about ending the hate, man.
Hollywood is wise. GMKNOBL is wise. We should all stop supporting what we believe and just listen until we agree. We’ll never be educated until we do. Obviously some of us must hate education and that makes me sad.
Do you really believe that? While I’m highly sceptical about the ‘born gay’ concept (at least as far as it being a general rule), I also don’t think that most homosexuals just wake up one day and think ‘I’m going to be gay!’.
My understanding about prop 8 is that it protects those of us who feel that homosexual marriage is an assault on the foundations of family, and is not acceptable behaviour – as nymphomania and other unhealthy sexual behaviours are not acceptable – can be charged with being guilty of a hate crime.
Prop 8 protected individuals and religious institutions against this assualt on OUR civil liberties.
Can anyone name one civilization that was build on homosexuality being a foundation thread of the fabric of the civilization?
What a fascinating, hypnotic read, Mr. Bean.
Bravo.
Mr. Bean-
Thank you for all that you do.
I do understand your plight Mr. Bean, but keep in mind that you voted to take something away from the gays — something they had before, if only for a short time. Since you voted to take something away from them, the decision is no longer in the abstract. Real people actually lost something.
That is why they are blacklisting you, Mr. Bean. I’m not saying the Hollywood leftists’ behavior is good or fair, but I understand why they are doing it 100%.
Don’t get me wrong; I dislike the leftist, anti-American program as much as anyone who posts here, but I’m just informing you of the realities of this situation.
(The anti-spam keeps eating my comments! Sorry if this is a double-post.)
I do understand your plight Mr. Bean, but keep in mind that you voted to take something away from the gays — something they had before, if only for a short time. Since you voted to take something away from them, the decision is no longer in the abstract. Real people actually lost something.
That is why they are blacklisting you, Mr. Bean. I’m not saying the Hollywood leftists’ behavior is good or fair, but I understand why they are doing it 100%.
Don’t get me wrong; I dislike the leftist, anti-American program as much as anyone who posts here, but I’m just informing you of the realities of this situation.
I’m old enough to remember the Ed Sullivan Show and all those others from the fifties, and if you were ever funny, I’m Mrs O’Leary’s cow.
That guy all those years ago was right:
“You stink! Bring out the stripper!”
There has never been a time in the history of the human race where Gay marriage even entered into the equation. I seem to remember a while back a “professor” or researcher found a picture of two men considered to be a picture of two saints. Of course we don’t have an verifiable evidence that this was what he said it was but hey who is to question somebody with a nice bit of stationary on his wall that says he is an expert? Anyway the guy said this picture was proof that the Church back in the very early days sanctioned Gay Marriage. Ok…awesome. Where is the primary source document? I want letters. As a historian myself I am bound by ETHICS to prove my point with primary source material Hence his hypothesis is wrong from the get go. However this was at the time when people were sure that there was a genetic predisposition to Homosexuality. Since they have proven it is not exactly nature and since nature couldn’t support this lifestyle because the species would die off this issue seems to have disappeared. So why try and tip over the apple cart, and invade the space of others? When I say invade I mean invade in every sense of the word. Who is the bully here? The person who quietly voted for prop 8 or the people screaming that the overwhelming majority of people in CA are denying them their rights? Is this a case of the squeeky wheel getting the grease? If so why does anyone who voted for prop 8 even listen or care? To me with everything we are facing as a nation, terrorism, huge economic slowdowns, a general mailaise why on earth is anyone even allowing this issue to be on their radar? Is this merely a way to distract? Maybe. And if Gays want to assume that their problems (I question that btw) are the same as the Black Civil Rights Movement then why did so many blacks vote for Prop 8? Someone asked that question and I’d like an anti Prop 8 person to explain why their leftist comrades voted against a cornerstone of leftist social engineering?
My attitude is I don’t care be whoever you want. Thats between you and God or whomever you worship or follow. Just don’t ask me to jump for joy or anything else as like most other folks I have other prorities and worrying about something that in the scheme of things is irrelevant is something I can’t do as I don’t have time nor do I have any interest. I shrug.
Bravo! Bravo! Liberalism, the last great modern bastion of prejudice. No different than the southern racism of the past.
“Real people actually lost something.”
Yes. And real people had something restored: the right of self-governance. But they were mostly haters and it would be wrong to expect enlightened people to understand or respect that.
Hi Orson, I have always been a fan of yours when I was growing up in the 60s. I thought you had this unique sense of comedy and I had no idea of all the different times you were blacklisted. I came out to Hollywood to make films that salute America and I made a film that honors our vets. I was blacklisted by a bunch of former execs from Orion pics. It has been an interesting time, I even got the business from our side too. The thing is if you decide to set up an organization called BLACKLISTING ANONYMOUS I will be your first member. Who knows we may have a huge group real fast! Keep plugging away, you always have had the talent and a smile on your face all the time.
I have never had more vitriol thrown my way than over the past eight years, by so-called friends who are liberals. They abide no rational political discourse or difference of opinion. If I disagree or support the opposition, I must be a hater, a troglodyte, a neo-Nazi, fascist. It makes me look forward to the day that Jeb Bush throws his hat into the presidential ring, for surely their little pin heads will explode at the prospect of yet another Bush presidency. Keep on swingin’ old Bean!
hey rumiko –
“…Can anyone name one civilization that was build on homosexuality being a foundation thread of the fabric of the civilization?”
oh yes… Greece and Rome… the foundational civilizations of western thought
Hang in there old Bean. you have it absolutely correct. This is America and what ever you believe or say is fair dinkum. If I don’t agree with you I have the right by the guarantee of free speech to speak out. Some people only believe in that right if it applies to them. I used to be a case hardened liberal until I saw the hypocrisy that comes from that camp. Stand on the side of truth at least you will always be right. All they do is shout and obnoxiously at that. You might friend speak volumes at any level.
I seem to recall after prop 8 passed it was the homosexuals that were assaulting Mormons and disturbing their church services. But that is not considered hateful……is it??
Dear Orson, it’s delightful to see your writing here and let me thank you for all the decades of entertainment you’ve given me and my family.
It’s frightening that plain ol’ PERVERSION has been dressed up YET AGAIN and trotted out as some kind of “freedom” when sin….in ANY form…leads to bondage, and I’m not talking about the kind that these creeps seem to enjoy…LOL!
The thing that worries me is that, with perversion becoming militant, and that militancy playing out in our streets and EVEN ATTACKING US IN OUR CHURCHES, I don’t see how this doesn’t turn out to be another civil war! And unlike the last one, I don’t see how we someday just learn to live together with the outcome. The godless left is going to have to go, or we’re going to have to make them.
It starts with Prop 8 being ignored in California, and with an “alternative action” president in the White House. But where does it end?
The first civil war started with a lot more civility, and with a lot easier answer for this Christian-founded nation to resolve.
There was a vote.There was a decision.The side that lost hates the decision.That side thinks it’s okay to blacklist and threaten the other side of the vote.There will be another vote on the issue sooner or later.If the losing side wins the next vote I assume that they will be okay with the other side blacklisting and threatening them.Liberal fascism lives.
So this is how this site is going to roll.You are going to decide what is over line by excluding my rational comment.The word fascim works for each side.In this cae it was liberal fascism.If you can’t handle that factual statement you will be a dismal failure,Moderator.
“Do you really believe that? While I’m highly sceptical about the ‘born gay’ concept (at least as far as it being a general rule), I also don’t think that most homosexuals just wake up one day and think ‘I’m going to be gay!’.”
Yes, I really believe it is a choice, but I certainly don’t think most homosexuals wake up one day and just decide like that. The decision comes, I believe, in a much more subtle manner over time. I also believe, as Gabriel Syme wrote in this thread, that it involves “a complex mingling of nature and nuture”.
To do anything, in my opinion, requires one to decide what to do. You don’t have to be aware you’re going to decide on something before you decide, but to commit any action requires some kind of decision taking. I believe that can be applied to why some people become homosexual.
We’re suppose to have freedom of speech in this country, but when you express it, you get in trouble.
I live in a blue state and I was afraid to put up a Bush for President sign because I couldn’t afford to have my car vandalized or my house trashed.
Likewise, if you express any opinion criticizing gay marriage or affirmative action, you’re called a homophobe and a racist.
When it comes to liberal causes, there is no debate. Liberal views are the only correct views, at least on the East and West Coasts.
Repugnance. A word that defines the feeling natural instinct generates when affronted/confronted with abnormalities such as homosexuality. Those practicing repugnant behavior frequently refer to instinctive rejection of that behavior as the result of a phobia. Instincts are not easily subdued, but can be overwhelmed by force of numbers, aided and abetted by those whose phobias tend to include hatred of reasonable conformity.
Your guest spot as Bob on “How I Met Your Mother” last season (“Slapsgiving”) was a highlight of the episode, which in turn was probably the best that show has ever done.
You’ll live on for as long as cable TV does marathons of the best Thanksgiving sitcoms ever.
I’d surely like to hear how you were cast for that role.
Greece and Rome? While homosexuality was part of the “fabric” of their cultures, they still consideered marriage as a contract between a man and a woman.
Nice try, though. Your argument probably works really well on anyone educated in a public school after 1975, since they never learned any historical facts.
To the one who responded “And real people had something restored: the right of self-governance”:
Gun-damn, I forgot it was imposed by judges!
These things do usually start out in a piecemeal way (let the judges issue their fiat now; I’m sure they’ll stop there) but then it gets worse — to the point where this trend of judicial activism can be used against liberals themselves!
Sure, it’s gay marriage now, but once the judges realize that the people will not resist their fiats, they will certainly over-reach. If they want gay marriage to be legal, they have to do it through elected officials. This way, it does not set a dangerous precedent that less scrupulous people can exploit.
So many people are hung up on the gay-marriage issue as such that they failed to look at a far more important issue: that judges cannot and should not make law, even for “good” or “idealistic” reasons.
If judges can make law by arbitrary fiat, then we have no self-governance.
“…Can anyone name one civilization that was build on homosexuality being a foundation thread of the fabric of the civilization?”
“oh yes… Greece and Rome… the foundational civilizations of western thought”
Yeeaahh … uh, you do realize that “ancient gay” and “modern gay” are kinda different, yes? Man/boy “love” was fairly common, but the relationships were expected to stop once the boy reached adulthood. It’s similar to what goes on in places like the Middle East right now: yes, gays are routinely killed or jailed, but it isn’t “gay” for an adult man to have sex with a boy, since the boy is not a “man” it isn’t gay, somehow. It also explains the contradictory behavior of men raping gay men to punish them for being gay: the rapist isn’t gay because he’s going the raping. Also, marriage was between a woman and a man in ancient times, if only for that whole pro-creation thing.
Behavior that we think of as “gay” or “gay acting” wasn’t even a blip on the gaydar then. A buncka naked, oiled up dudes wrestling — now, homoerotic — then, the Olympics.
Even in ancient Greece there was a — I dunno if “stigma” is the right word? — for gay acts, as in Athens the slang “to Spartanize” meant sodomy, which was the Athenian’s way of making fun of the Spartans.
As far as I know (and I could be wrong) the only ancient society that allowed gay marriage was Rome. The emperor Nero even performed the services for a few gay weddings, but gay marriage supporters probably want to look elsewhere for a better role model.
Prop 8 lost, yet the gay community (rather the homosexual community, lets start using the correct terms) cannot abide by the results of the election. Why do they require everyone to accept their lifestyle as normal? Is it because they do not think it is normal in their own heart of hearts? I don’t know; but I do know that I am tired of the lies and hatred coming out of that community.
Marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman. If other people want to make commitments, use another word.
Homosexuality is not a right, privacy is. Therefore, homosexuality is not a civil rights issue.
The rise of Rome ad Greece had nothing to do with their gay population; it can be fairly argued that it occurred in spite of them. The family, a man and a woman, was the centerpiece of both civilizations throughout their rise.
Mostly, though, I am tired of the far left trying to force their rather bizarre values down everyone’s throat and of the constant lying and dissembling that they employ to try to rationalize their positions and arguments. Makes one wonder, if they have to lie in order to construct an argument, then does that not indicate that the argument has no actual standing or foundation?
Great piece Mr Bean, hopefully people will read it and take it to heart. If we lose our respect for the value of a vote, then we are truly lost. The far left does not seem to realize this and its implications; they seem to be in favor of a tyranny that they would control.
Ha! People are born gay…that’s just too funny. People aren’t born gay it’s a choice. And I’ll tell you why and then someone can maybe explain to me how I’m wrong.
1. Why is it that EVERY living species on this earth have the ability to procreate, yet somehow some few people are chosen not to? Yet, if they really wanted to they could find someone from the opposite sex and still procreate? Hmmmm…wierd. That to me sounds like a CHOICE!
2. If being gay is so “natural” and you’re “born” with it, can someone please explain to me how lesbians have sex? Oh, they probably use a dildo of some sort, right? Ok, so let me get this straight, being a lesbian is so natural that they still need a male organ to have sex?! Huh. Yeah, that sounds “natural”.
3. And if being gay is so “natural” can someone please explain to me why scientists have never discovered a G spot in your butt!?!?
So nice try. Get over yourselves. It’s a choice. Nothing more and nothing less.
Mr. Bean is an old-time lib, like Nat Hentoff, like my dad, like me, I guess. You pick your issues and sometimes you even acknowledge that the other side might, on occasion, be right. The one absolute is that everyone has to be able to freely express an opinion. That’s what’s so dispiriting about the current trend among lefties to limit free speech, and it’s the casual use of the word “hatred” to describe any disagreement that makes it so dangerous. Many people who don’t sanction gay marriage are fine with civil unions. They don’t hate.
Hey, Sean Bean – Greece and Rome may have had some input as to the foundation of Western civilization but look what happened to their empires once all the debauchery ( i.e. homosexuality, etc., etc.) took control of their cultures… ” Humpty Dumpty had a great fall!!!”
Mr. Bean, you’ll have to forgive me for showing my own age in saying that you have always been the voice of Bilbo Baggins to me – youve no idea how much I loved The Hobbit, the Rankin-Bass production almost as much as the book. But I so appreciate your sharing this article with us and helping Mr. Breitbart start this venture! I now have a greater appreciation for your career and experience!
Orson, in the interests of accuracy, it’s worth pointing out that recent studies have debunked the 70 percent number when it comes to African-American voters and Prop 8 in Cali. The oft-cited exit poll looks more and more like an outlier, and more detailed subsequent study suggests that Prop 8 votes had far more to do with party I.D. and ‘religiosity’ than race. And by a significant margin.
It’s dumb when gay rights activists try to blame the Black community for the Prop’s failure. Equally dim for conservatives to point to this mythical vote as an indication of support for their own biases.
And while we’re on the subject, it’s worth noting that the Proposition process has nothing to do with a ‘war on democracy’ — in truth, the Founding Fathers would have been horrified by the idea. They were well familiar with the tyranny of the majority, and went to great lengths to defend the newly founded nation against it. That’s why we live in a constitutional republic.
The study regarding the black vote and Prop 8 is discussed here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BANB154OS1.DTL
Mr. Orson Bean: welcome to the glory of the free market– people know that the money you receive will go towards public and financial support of morally dubious causes, and they will make decisions accordingly about whether to patronize any events you are involved in.
What’s fascinating is that how so many supporters of Prop 8 have no interest in taking personal responsibility and personal ownership of their own beliefs and practices. If you want to support terrible laws, I say, “go for it.” But that doesn’t mean that people are going to be your friend, and it means that people are going to make judgments about your personal character based on your beliefs and actions. At least have the courage of your convictions– if you’re going to support laws than attack your friends and colleagues, at least give them credit for following through on their beliefs just as you follow through on (and accept the financial and social consequences of ) yours.
You put your money where your mouth is, and good for you. Now own your actions– and understand that when you attack gays, they and their friends are not going to look on you too fondly.
So Harley we are just supposed to accept as fact statements from a liberal news rag, based in a ultra-liberal city, with a liberal agenda, coming from two liberal professors, from two liberal universities,commissioned by a gay and lesbian task force to find out the “truth” over the people asked in an exit poll why they voted the way they did??????????
We have in NZ Civil Union which affords same sex couples the same rights and responsibilites as a marriage. In order to disolve the Civil Union you go through the same process as in a marriage. But it is a Civil Union, not a marriage. Marriage is accepted to be between a man and a woman. I might note that a Civil Union can also be between a man and a woman who do not wish to use the term “marriage” when applied to their relationship. This people refer to each other as their “partner” not a “spouse”. If a Civil Union provides you with the same rights (medical choices and legal issues)call it what you will in the privacy of your own home but don’t call it marriage
You are wrong about gays in the middle east. Homosexual acts are common and considered an acceptable alternative to heterosexual acts. They could not possibly put homosexuals in jail they could never tell who was and who wasn’t.
The old saying here is that women are for babys and boys are for fun.
Do you need a better reason to disallow the the proliferation of middle eastern customs in the USA?
‘Gay marriage’ strikes fear in the heart of the Amrican insurance business. As long as gays are not ‘married’ they can not claim insurance coverage.
This is not acceptable when two people have been a monogomus couple for years ond one becomes seriously ill.
So how many people who oppose ‘Gay marriage” for whatever reason would be willing to back socialized medicine in order to get medical care to these people? All people for that matter.
It looks like we basically agree. But it doesn’t seem much like the same kind of choice as “choosing which movie to go see”, does it?
George, oh for pete’s sake – is that what all this about then? Whining because the insurance doesnt cover? Tell me what good does it do to go around bullying heteros into “accepting gays” simply because you flat-foots dont like your insurance. Hell for breakfast, youd think there were enough gay lawyers whod be able to get clever enough to make some stipulations in the law about including gays…or even more better (but probably more common sensical therefore, not do-able) FORM YOUR OWN DAMN “Insurance for Gays” BUSINESS!!!!
Nice go at it, George, but that lame attempt to insult our intelligence is a tried but FAILED one – the homosexual lobby wants to PUNISH us for having a different opinion and actually STANDING UP FOR IT.
Gays continually complain that they do not have the same rights as everyone else. That is not true, their problem is that they have exactly the same rights as everyone else when it comes to marriage as marriage has been defined since the first, “I do,” was said. Any Gay man can marry a woman and any Gay woman can marry a man. That they chose not to is their decision.
And on a related note; how uncomfortable will gay men who do not want to marry their partners be if gay marriage is legal and they have to listen to the constant strains of their partners asking, “When are we gonna get married?”
On that level, gays don’t know how lucky they’ve got it.
hey, sean –
Greece and Rome were rife with hedonism, which has a better guarantee of perpetuating the species than homosexuality.
But to say they were “founded” on homosexuality or hedonism is a misnomer — while they may have existed in the culture to a greater or lesser degree, let’s not kid ourselves and believe that sexual proclivities were written into the charter.
George Wagner
With your logic, I’ve had a long term relationship with my dog so, you’ll need to pay your taxes to support my dog’s insurance as well. When he passes, I’ve had a liking to my sister lately so maybe she’ll be my next long term partner….or maybe a lizard. So, no boundaries?
Prop 8
Argument Against – Takes away civil rights
Question. Which ones?
According to California state law, homosexuals have identical legal rights to property, visitation in hospitals, tax code, etc… under domestic partnership. Not one California right was taken away, changed, manipulated or anything else under prop 8. Not ONE. Prop 8 has no legal effect on domestic partnership, therefore no effect on civil rights for homosexuals.
I believe, wholeheartedly, that homosexuals should have the exact same civil rights, and that committed partners should also have the same civil rights as married couples, but I fervently believe that you, the homosexual, do not have the right to take the word Marriage and adopt it to your “new” definition of the word in an effort to normalize your lifestyle.
Different name – same rights – no more arguments. Done…
Uh, can we now move on to important issues like China buying up our debt, tariff imbalances, and a grass roots effort to only purchase American Products. Save the economy! Save America.
Thanks,
Orator of the Obvious
Greece and Rome??? What??? The homo-erotic union cannot and will not sustain a civilization. Neither will the hetero-erotic union. Natural law dictates that a society will not continue to exist without the unfettered access to reproduction. The Catholic Church was right in 33 AD and in 1968 in her opposition to birth control and she is right today. Once you separate sex from birth you separate life from society.
ANYONE who thinks gay people CHOOSE to be gay must be BISEXUAL. They must have attractions to both sexes and just “CHOOSE” to sleep with the opposite sex. Let’s ask Drudge if he CHOOSES?
While I think it’s wrong for you to be black listed for your opinions, it’s not just the word they want. There are financial advantages to marriage, as well familial circumstances that are more ideal for raising children. It doesn’t affect anyone who’s not gay and I don’t even understand why straight people were allowed to vote on this.
Ponyboy, heh. No. I don’t expect you to do anything. And I certainly wouldn’t expect you to take the time to analyze the relevant data.
Molly – oh HERE WE GO…thats Arrogance stepped up to Arrogance.1 for you: its not a legitimate vote because illegitimate voters were involved ie it doesnt mean anything if you’re not gay. So Molly, how do you propose to disenfranchise American citizens who do NOT have sex with their same gender yet still pay taxes and can prove their citizenship to the United States?
As Ive said: I dont hate gays. I hate their tyranny.
Kudos Mr. Bean,
There is a “pink hanbd” in America these days that wears a glove of fascism. No longer can anytone have an opion, and God forbid that I want to tell my children that homosexuality is wrong. The anticcs over the Prop 8 issue are nothing less than Mussolini’s black shirts. They hve outdone Joe Mcarthy who was shown to be more right that not on the release of the Venona Papers.
JR
NYC
Kudos Mr. Bean,
There is a “pink hand” in America these days that wears a glove of fascism. No longer can anytone have an opion, and God forbid that I want to tell my children that homosexuality is wrong. The anticcs over the Prop 8 issue are nothing less than Mussolini’s black shirts. They hve outdone Joe Mcarthy who was shown to be more right that not on the release of the Venona Papers.
JR
NYC
Great read Mr. Bean. Been a fan for a long time, (Do I get on the list for saying that?). If you are not a member of the media, how dare you voice an opinion.
UM Molly if I am not mistaken Gays have the same rights as married couples do only its called same sex unions and its CA Law…maybe someone else can explain further. So you’d be wrong.
Waaaaahhhhhh! You take away my loved ones rights, you get blacklisted, by me, an individual. I am not a government, so your little McCarthyism screed is, well, retarded.
I am being quite intolerant of your intolerence.
By the way, who the phuk are you, anyway?
So seperate but equal is okay with Stephanie. I bet she would also like to resegregate black people.
JR in NYC’s thoughts:
There is a “black hand” in America these days that wears a glove of fascism. No longer can anytone have an opion, and God forbid that I want to tell my children that biracial marriage is wrong. The anticcs over the Prop 8 issue are nothing less than Mussolini’s black shirts. They hve outdone Joe Mcarthy who was shown to be more right that not on the release of the Venona Papers.
JR
NYC
Awww, Mr. Bean is such a victim. Effin’ crybaby.
Greek and Rome are great examples– yea sure “homosexuality was accepted” in those places at that times. And it isn’t here? Neither of those societies saw “homosexual” as some unique species or genus of man, a “group.” In fact, the Greeks just saw homosexual relations as mere physical pleasure and friendship, HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH MARRIAGE. A man might have a man or boy lover, but he would also be married. The idea of “gay marriage” would have seemed to them an absurdity of the highest order.
Today, in order to argue that by prohibiting “gay marriage” our society is “persecuting gays” and “denying gays their civil rights,” one needs to make the claim that marriage is somehow inherently about a particular species of sexual relation. Which it is definitely not, either legally or theologically. As such, neither “the state” or “the church” (the arbiters of marriage) defines a person according to his or her particular sexual proclivities. So a person who enjoys homosexual sex or identifies as a homosexual is not DEFINED as “gay” in any way by the state or the church, and if they did, well that would be a sort of persecution. But they don’t. A “gay person” (in quotes because I find the idea that a person should be defined by his or her particular sexual proclivities very bizarre) can get married all he or she wants; it’s just that he or she has to marry someone of the opposite sex, OBVIOUSLY, because that’s the whole point of marriage– not to ‘validate love’ or any nonsense like that.
The reason why we are having these debates now is that people cannot understand the logical, philosophical, and theological-political underpinnings of “marriage,” and thus it is meaningless. That, and the “gay rights lobby” insists on defining people by their sexuality (which seems to me the real close-mindedness and simplicity here). That “liberals” are blacklisting those who voted against “gay marriage” just shows, I think, how little of an argument they have; thus they need to use violence and coercion.
Great article, by the way.
Hey “Jim”… or is it “Jack Ryan”… is it a “pink hand” or a “black hand”? Either way, you made your point:
((Conservatives are McCarthyist racists, and opposition to gay marriage is the same as opposition to biracial marriage.)) We got it.
Now take your disgusting disinformation tactics and crawl back to whatever God-forsaken “Rules for Radicals” forum the link to this article was posted on.
the short answer is : if you believe that gay people should be singled out for different treatment under the law, then yes, you are a homophobe.
you seem like a nice fellow, mr. bean.. loved you in ‘being john malkovich’..
but, respectfully, you are just a wee bit off-base on this particular issue.
What they want now is the WORD. And when a word means everything, it means nothing.
beautiful …. true ….
Orson Bean is a giant and a hero. Thank you, sir.
Hey there, “Sean Bean” the commenter:
If Greece and Rome were “built on homosexuality”, I’ll go down on you in the Colosseum. Sure, there were plenty of deliveries being made at shipping docks back then, but the civilization was hardly built on it. I’d tell you to get a grip, but…
The anti-communist blacklists were also not organized by the government, so learn your history before you call anybody else “retarded”.
As a lesbian and former braindead libtard turned conservative, voting YES on Prop 8 was one of the easiest decisions I’ve ever made.
My last “wife” sent me into bankruptcy court.
Gay Marriage? …not on your life. Hell, even civil unions give me the willies.
Mr. Bean, you can H8 me anytime.
While I support the right of all private citizens to hire, not hire, boycott or support anybody they please for any reason they please, I’m too much of an Orson Bean fan not to be saddened by this.
Great piece, Orson. Just remember, the only force used here has been by the government, whose invasive campaign-finance-disclosure laws (not the reactions of gays, anti-communists or Vietnam War objectors) created your predicament and are the real danger to democracy.
If Greece and Rome were “built on homosexuality”, I’ll go down on you in the Colosseum. Sure, there were plenty of deliveries being made at shipping docks back then, but the civilization was hardly built on it.
Pederasty was enshrined by law under Pericles and remained the standard model of hellenistic male youth for over 1,000 years. Read a book.
The anti-communist blacklists were also not organized by the government,…
True, they just happened to coincide, exactly, with lists compiled by the FBI and HUAC. Pure happenstance!
You people are dumber than a box full of rocks.
Hey Sean Bean -
“…Can anyone name one civilization that was build on homosexuality being a foundation thread of the fabric of the civilization?”
“oh yes… Greece and Rome… the foundational civilizations of western thought”
Wrong. Not only wrong, but WAY wrong. Greece and Rome were civilizations “built on homosexuality”??? And you think so? That is exactly why debate is the country is futile. People like you that are so poorly informed or are simply ignorant. There’s no talking logic to your type, and there’s rebuttal to your statements. You just don’t get it and you refuse to do so.
So…you believe that gays not only don’t have the right to marry, they don’t have the right to chose what to do with their money? Gotcha.
Wow. For the dissenters posting here to rail about hate – just wow. Your mommies didn’t raise you very well.
Mr. Bean, thank you for telling your story. I had no idea.
Mr. Bean–You are a man of courage-one who lives your convictions. Oh to have more like you. The lack of courage is one of this country’s biggest problems. Thanks for your courage.
I’m Gay but 100% against Gay “marriage”. Why? Well, if we open the door to two men/two women marrages, what’s to stop a religion or culture that allows men to have four wives from legally sanctioned marriages in THIS country (what they do in Saudi Arabia, etc is their business)? What’s to stop fundamentalist Mormons from demanding multiple wives? What’s to stop any number of people living in a “domestic” situation from demanding the right to marry. Gays and Lesbians claim it’s all about “love” – well, if “love” is the reason to widen the definition of marriage why can’t I marry my dog, my sister, my brother or anyone I “love”? The legal recognition of a committed couple to protect property, inheritance, etc rights is one fair and democratic thing but widening the definition of marriage is an assault of our society and culture that will be irreparably damaging. I am also a “born” homosexual. I never recall making a decision to be “gay” and why would I? Considering all the prejudice, violence and hatred directed towards Gays it would hardly a sane thing to do. However, being Gay does not mean I have to sign on to a Gay political agenda and march in lockstep with Gay fanatics who dominate the headlines. As for Hollywood backing Gay Marriage when was the last time Hollywood was noted for standing for setting an agenda for morality and decency? I know scores of Gays who thing the marriage issue is something promoted by nutjob Gays who and fanatic “liberalss’ But we stay silent because of the threats and intimidation. Talk about a “Blacklist”. It exists alright – just ask anyone working in entertainment who has not mached in lockstep with Bush hatred or Obama idolatory and they will tell you all about a blacklist.
“It looks like we basically agree. But it doesn’t seem much like the same kind of choice as “choosing which movie to go see”, does it?”
No, you’re right, JIC, they don’t seem much like the same kind of choice, but at their most basic, they remain similar because they are choices. I just should have used a better analogy when stating that being a homosexual is a choice. BTW, sorry for not responding earlier.
The thing that bothers me is not the idea of any of the long-standing gay couples I know getting married, or even having kids, I don’t think that’s ideal for a kid but I think kids are resilient enough to handle that if the parents are good people.
I’m a troubleshooter most of the time in my business and I spend most of my time thinking about how things can go wrong or be misused. When I set up a computer system for users, most of my thought goes into what will happen when they screw up, because the thought you put into that part saves you endless BS later on.
And the first thing that came to mind for me with gay marriage was, “what if two pedophiles meet in some gross AOL chatroom, agree to a sham marriage, and adopt a harem?”
I floated this concern on a message board with a Berkeley-educated ex-Navy homosexual on it and it simply provoked him to rage. His reaction made me even more nervous. He was enraged because I had a good point, and it might impede the outcome he wanted which was all about him. Well, it isn’t all about gays and what they need.
The failure of Marxism should demonstrate to any thinking person that we do not understand ourselves. We do not understand how our society works, how we work, what motivates individuals and groups. And every time we think we do understand and try to impress our will on the natural order of human society, we make things worse. Welfare made things worse, for example. ADFC made things worse. Not because they were intended to make our society worse but because of the hubris of some overly-emotional people who believe, because of their various humours and hormonal fluctuations controlling their minds (or so I speculate) that they understand how this whole thing works and can make it work better.
Well, we don’t understand. And we don’t know what will happen if we make large arbitrary changes to our society. At the very least, we need a national discussion. But mostly, we just need gays to stop being far-left angry activists and start making their case to Middle America as fellow Americans. If gays go to Middle America and tell people they believe in the same things they do and just want to be good friends and good neighbors, in time, they will get what they want. If they keep up these narcissistic hatefests, they never will.
Dear Mr Bean-
A person’s work “should” be taken separately from their politics, but emotional issues bring out emotional responses. Although I find it very hard to believe that if half the people in your life are gay, it never occurred to you that your support of Prop 8 would hurt them. I think you are wrong, but I don’t want to see anyone blacklisted and it is exaggerated to say that the industry has a blacklist. Good actors work, despite politics.
I agree that Prop 8 passed and until we can bring people around to a higher level of tolerance, the law stands.
In the mean time, I look forward to seeing your work… loved Being John Malkovich.
Bob – January 9th, 2009 at 11:57 am
So seperate but equal is okay with Stephanie. I bet she would also like to resegregate black people.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob or bobber I can call you Bobber right? I don’t give a fig how people live their lives. But why should I and my family, anyone who doesn’t agree or approve or care have to have it shoved down our throats?
Seperate but equal? What is that supposed to mean? You mean like a seperate marriage thingy for Gays? OK in what place do you get taht from anything I wrote? Apparently Bobber can’t read, nor does he understand Civil Rights in any way shape or form. Now Bobber you go find Jerry Wright and tell him why Gay Marriage and rights are the same as rights for Blacks. I would bet he’d love to hear it. ANd then tell me OH BOBBER why the ONE doesn’t support Gay Marriage….like to hear how you people work your way around taht little issue.
Now I and everyone here has more to be concerned abpout than the make believe rights for people who already share the full and basic rights everyone darned last one of us in the nation have. And if you are trying to call me a racist well I am not. I don’t feel the need after using two examples of Black preachers who did and do not support Gay marriage to defend myself against the stupid, and ignorant rants of a little man hiding behind his lap top screen. You wanna debate use history you logic and stop the personal bs attacks. Oh you have no leg to stand on, can’t debate the issues and have no way to argue. Hence you fall into the name calling game. And if thats the best you can do well….not impressed. Not in the least.
You’re correct, it wasn’t pure happenstance. The blacklists were compiled from the publicly available transcripts of a House Committee. Just like the blacklist against Prop 8 supporters is compiled from the publicly available records of donations to the campaign for prop 8.
Morgan:
No problem, and thanks for the reply.
“the Proposition process has nothing to do with a ‘war on democracy’ — in truth, the Founding Fathers would have been horrified by the idea.”
You are aware that this was Californian law, not federal, right? OK. Just checking.
The prop process in fact goes unusually far toward democracy, but you are right that the Founding Fathers were solidly republican. What might they have thought of the judicial activism, then, that provoked Prop 8? Rule by the people directly is bad, but rule by a handful of judges who would substitute their own will for that of the people as expressed by the legislature? Mercy!
If only we had some record, some trace of the thinking about that situation at the time of our country’s founding. Of course, such a document would be very old and phrased strangely by our standards. Say, as old and strange as The Federalist #78. Too bad we’ll never know …
I completely understand your plight. I have lived in LA for a bit and have often felt that I was walking around with a target on my back. And this is long before the recent election.
I’m living in the closet. I learned the hard way to only share my beliefs with very close friends. I am alone. None of my friends are conservative. None.
And god forbid someone gets wind that I AM, they then spend all their energy trying to ‘change’ me and when they realize it’s not going to happen, they attack. In the midst of their ‘changing’ me, their attitude and opinion is that I simply must not know any better. If I don’t agree with them, I certainly must be uneducated and incredibly ignorant, right?
I’m no wilting flower mind you. I make it a point to change the subject and to not get into it at all, but they just can’t let it go.
Obnoxious is a word that comes to mind.
It is SO ironic to me that a group of ‘liberals’ who are stereotyped to be open-minded are some of the most prejudiced sort. They are not diplomatic or open. At least, I should say that has been my experience.
I have experienced some of the most offensive verbal abuse that anyone can imagine. I’ve been called a racist and a nazi, simply because I’m a Republican.
I wish that more liberals would read, investigate and seek to understand.
At the same time, how are they ever to learn that their behavior is ridiculous?
The media is like the horrible parent making a bad example and the kids are simply learning by example.
If no one is telling the kids/robots to think differently, how else are they to know what to think?
ELAINE.
I just noticed your message. If you do not believe that there is a blacklist or a backlash for conservatives in Hollywood, than you must obviously not be in the business. Sorry, but it is true.
This business is made up of relationships. There is a reason for the saying, “it’s who you know”. Not much different than other industries. EXCEPT that, Hollywood is filled with a liberal majority, unlike most other industries. The balance of power is usually more even.
Speaking of ‘tolerance’, there is little in Hollywood for conservative views.
And your statement assuming that people who voted for Prop 8 are lacking in ‘tolerance’ is once again, an arrogant statement. You are assuming it’s intolerant, because it’s not your own. It’s a patronizing comment.
Agree to disagree and get off your moral high horse.
You even arrogantly questioned whether half the people in his life are gay. Are you kidding me? Again, you must not work in Hollywood or the business. He’s an actor. He’s a theatre-trained actor. Of course he’s surrounded by gay people.
Your judgemental tone is a polite version of what lies beneath. And it’s exactly what he was referring to in this article.
Check yourself.
The fact that homosexuality does not lead to procreation is not proof that it is not genetic. In the days of early man, the siblings of homosexuals would have received a reproductive advantage due to the fact that the homosexual would have value to the tribe since he/she would be able to make contributions to the community that someone who bore responsibility for children would not have. It is these siblings that would pass along the trait to future generations.
So, if we believe that homosexuality is genetic, we need to expect that the trait was passed down because the homosexual was not a parent.
Therefore, if this is true, it would mean that homosexuals should not have children.
Remember Orson, the Brown Shirts who hunted down any proponent of Prop 8 are the ones that keep preaching “tolerance” to the rest of us 98% of the time…
Tom,
Your first sentence was true. You should have stopped there.
There is no answer yet as to where homosexuality comes from. It just is.
And that has exactly nothing to do with the issue of whether interest groups have a right to reorder the fundamental units of our society to serve their preferences. Why just two to a marriage? Why be so arbitrary with ages? Why even require that both spouses be human?
Because the status we grant to marriage is not about our personal fulfillment. Our lifestyles can be for that if it is what we want to pursue above all else. So far, this institution works best for creating stable families from which the next generation will arrive as healthy and well balanced as possible. It also requires sacrifices from each of the sexes to accommodate the other in a way that uniquely tempers our characters. The fact that marriage is under attack from other directions and less strong than it has been in the past doesn’t change this fact. Those problems just suggest other battles that have to be fought to preserve the benefits of marriage.
That doesn’t mean marriage is best for everyone or even tolerable for everyone. It is just a reason for according it a special social status. And if other kinds of relationships prove over the generations that they are as good or better, they would also deserve that status. But so far they have not.
We can have the lifestyles we want. Nobody even has to approve of them to tolerate them. But we don’t get to rearrange social institutions to accommodate our preferred lifestyles or, to borrow from Mr. Bean, we have no real institutions at all. We will just have words.
And the first thing that came to mind for me with gay marriage was, “what if two pedophiles meet in some gross AOL chatroom, agree to a sham marriage, and adopt a harem?”
What’s stopping a man and a woman from doing the same thing? Or can only men be pedophiles?
He was enraged because I had a good point, and it might impede the outcome he wanted which was all about him.
I’m pretty sure he was enraged because in a just world, a man of your intellect would have gotten himself killed decades ago.
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