…And One More Thing About That Top 25 List
by Maura FlynnMaybe something in me hates a list…but I’ve been reading with equal parts horror, amusement, and genuine interest as the Big Hollywood community discusses and debates National Review’s top 25 picks for “The Best Conservative Movies.”
I can’t help but focus on the horror right now, call me twisted. Ben Shapiro, did you really suggest that the concept that “art ennobles” is a “liberal cliche”? If this is what “conservatives” actually believe, is it any wonder that liberals consistently make better films? I cannot fathom why anyone would cede such a broad truism to the “liberal” cause. Go ahead and give them Mom and apple pie while you’re at it.
In your dismissal of the brilliant film, The Lives of Others, you claim that it “goes easy on the Stasi (see some of them were really nice guys!)”. Well, Ben, some of them undoubtedly were good people, if conflicted. It is the very complexity of human nature that allows atrocities to be committed on such grand scales, and likewise, what allows goodness to somehow survive in even the darkest and most unlikely places.
The KKK member who came upon a black woman praying in a church with her child and beat her, is abhorrent. But the Klan member who could not bring himself to do so is clearly more frightening. And he is real. Without that glimmer of humanity, evil is just a dumb joke that would burn itself out rather quickly. If we cannot see ourselves reflected somewhere, if we are not made uncomfortable…if we are never made to wonder whether we would report a neighbor to the Nazi regime, for instance, in order to protect our own families, then we are only watching cartoons. And isn’t that lack of complexity one of the things that conservatives consistently (and justifiably) rail against in Hollywood?
Yes, great art ennobles! And challenges us. Those who disagree should probably not bother discussing films and their impact on society. What would be the point?
Frankly, I love the folks at NR, but Ghostbusters at number 10? Really? Because of a few sorta-kinda free-market lines? The film is fine, whatever. But hardly notable on any list of any kind. 300 at number 5? If there is a grosser mutilation of a fascinating story, I have not seen it, and I am thankful for that much.
Honestly, there are so many lousy movies on that list that it blows my mind. And if one must construct a conservative movie list (without being stoned in a dorm room), where is The Right Stuff, Lean on Me, or, my pick of the day, Remember the Titans?
This is a true story that has every element of a great “conservative” film. It celebrates courage, hard work, redemption, and the individual facing long odds against a clear and present moral evil in society. It is family-friendly in every respect and suitable for any child 10-years or older. It’s also extremely well-executed, a pleasure to watch, and a very necessary history lesson.
Can anyone tell me why “we” aren’t claiming films like this one?
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82 Comments
Remember the Titans is epic pablum.
Since BB jr. (and thereby NR) abandoned common sense, conservative values, and even a Western principle of rational discourse when he fired a real conservative, Joe Sobran, for merely QUESTIONING our unfathomable support for Israel, I have had little use for NR. They are not conservative because they are not patriots.
Dennis Miller as host, Friday Night Live Show, a conservative comedy skit show. What does everyone think? Could work right.
I'm sick an tired of that canadian lorne michaels corrupting and stupifying Americans. The filth that comes out of nbc could make a hooker blush.
You hate lists, yet you basically post one of your own. You go on to say "How can you say _______ was a bad movie?" and proceed to name several you judged as bad movies. Your list, his list, NR's list….all opinions. None more important than the next.
What makes a "conservative" movie (if there even is such a thing) can be different movies for different people. Anything that inspires conservative ideals like hard work, morality, spirituality, or justice could be considered a conservative movie. The same movie another might walk away with a liberal message from.
Can't we all discuss conservatism in movies without looking down the brim of our noses at each other? National Review tried gave us a great topic for discussion, and the contributors have turned it into nothing more than snark.
Excellent call on Remember the Titans. As much as I enjoy reading BH, I don't identify as a conservative. This was such an enjoyable movie. Pablum? Maybe, but I still watch it every time it's on cable. Maybe what you call 'pablum' is the fact that it deals with race issues in a way in which we wish would happen. I don't know. I just love the feeling that movie elicits. Brotherhood. It's a beautiful thing!
The Right Stuff is a great pick.
I agree with your criticism of the claim that art does not enoble us. Art is how societies express themselves and pass on their values. If we abandon art to the other side, then we lose by default.
Conservatives need to get over the idea that they can put their heads in the sand when it comes to the culture.
I'm still waiting for someone at NRO to explain how in God's name "Three Kings" was on the also-rans list? Who shot who in the what now?
I agree with your criticism of the erroneous claim that art does not enoble us. Art is how societies express themselves and pass on their values. If we abandon art to the other side, then we lose by default.
Conservatives need to get over the idea that they can put their heads in the sand when it comes to the culture.
That's the joy of debate, TM
(and even moreso the joy of lists 
). . Everyone has an opinion and really aren't right or wrong
Personally, i've got a couple on the list that just dont' have a "conservative" message to me (when I go to movies looking for them… sometimes I go just to escape reality
) .and definitely would disagree with the order of some others.
I think you're both right! Yes, Ben was wrong about ceding the powerful and important world of art to liberals, but at least his movie choices were better than NR's. Maybe the folks at Big Hollywood would be interested in putting out a better list?
The director's own essays here should be sufficient to prove that none of his work is in the least conservative.
I was disappointed to see that Second Hand Lions wasn't on the list. Starring Robert Duvall and Michael Caine, it tells a story with charm and a theme of honor, honesty, courage, fidelity, and the responsibilities of manhood. It was a wonderful film, one of the few DVD's we have purchased. If you haven't seen this movie, rent it immediately!
Justice is a "conservative" value? Did Thurgood Marshall not believe in justice? Did MLK not believe in justice? Or morality? Spirituality? What do you think a liberal is — some kind of cross between Hitler and Stalin? All these are human values (yes, hard work, too) shared across the political spectrum. If this is how you define conservatism, you have deprived it of all meaning whatsoever.
Forrest Gump!! The wanker accepting an award for the show at the Oscars looked right in the camera and said, "This is NOT a conservative film."
If our half-witted pundits can't grasp what the makers of the film said about it, and see that slant during a viewing, then what the hell good are they?
The damn makers of the film said it wasn't conservative, and our goofs think it is????!!!!????!!!!
No wonder we get massacred……………………………
MLK, according to many, was "most likely a Republican." Granted, the most cited source is the Black Republican Association for this tidbit. MLK III says his dad wouldn't vote Republican today, but no one knows for sure what side of the aisle he would have stood on.
It's worth noting, however, that it was the Democrat party in the South that created the Jim Crow laws, not the Republicans.
Maura (if I may call you Maura), not to put too fine a point on it, but Ben Shapiro is, well, kind of dumb. As witness his reference to the Miranda warning in discussing "L.A. Confidential," a film that takes place at least ten years before the Miranda warning was even created.
The wanker accepting an award for the show at the Oscars looked right in the camera and said, "This is NOT a conservative film."
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - –
Said by a Liberal who fears the rejection of other Liberals (regards "the wanker" – not you).
I still like Forrest Gump, I'm still a Conservative, I really don't care what "the wanker" said about either. I can enjoy that film despite wankerish nonsense spoken from among wankerish ceremonies, I guess.
I won't waste our time on what the Black Republican Association has to say about anything. (Did all three of them vote on this?) But can we finally acknowledge the truth about the Southern Democrats and Jim Crow? Yes, many Southern Democrats were racists, they fought like hell against the passage of equal rights legislation — and when LBJ forced it through congress, they left the Democratic party and became Republicans. Because the Republican party warmly embraced them and did their best to put the racist philosophy into action. These are Republican heroes — men like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms, leaders of your party.
I thought conservatives hated the "relativism" of humanities departments but here y'all are reppin against authorial intent.
I agree though, artists are artists, not omnipotent creators, and there's often issues at play in their work that even they don't realize. That's why it's art!
The larger issue here is that there are core American values that almost everyone across the political spectrum believe in, and since Oscar bait like "Gump" is aimed at a wide audience, it's going to embrace those values. It's kind of silly in the first place to try to force political ideology onto movies that aren't about politics.
I thought conservatives hated the "relativism" of humanities departments but here y'all are reppin against authorial intent.
I agree though, artists are artists, not omnipotent creators, and there's often issues at play in their work that even they don't realize. That's why it's art!
The larger issue here is that there are core American values that almost everyone across the political spectrum believe in, and since Oscar bait like "Gump" is aimed at a wide audience, it's going to embrace those values. It's kind of silly in the first place to try to force political ideology onto movies that aren't about politics.
The values portrayed in "Gump" are so Mom-and-apple pie that only the most hardened curmudgeons on the left and right fringes are going to find something they don't like.
One thing to keep in mind about the NR list was that it was limited to the last 25 years. The Right Stuff (1983) must have just missed the cut. Lots of others did as well. BH can always try a list of all-time conservative films.
I grew up in NC, and my only regret is that Jesse Helms retired before I was old enough to vote against him. Democrats are still the oppressive and bigotted power mongers they've always been. Consider welfare, for example. Give black people a handout when they don't/can't work, then they complain about how unfair things are. Democrats swoop in, make promises, get the overwhelming black vote, and change absolutely nothing. Black people's situations never improve, yet they keep voting democrat.
How very much like a lockstep echo chamber liberal to resort to ad hominem attacks when people disagree with you.
She’s not attacking Ben Shapiro’s character; she’s attacking his choices. The breadth of difference between the two is startling in so far that some people confuse (purposely or not) the two. Please read the article again, Nathan.
Thank you Ms. Flynn for this response. When I read that bit from Mr Shapiro, how "[The Lives of Others] embraces the liberal cliche that art ennobles," I did a double take: Did he really just say that?! It's like he reinforced every cliche and stereotype the Hollywood left has about conservatives in one fell swoop. Thankfully, not all of us on the right think as Shapiro does. Your answer to that ridiculous claim gives me hope that Big Hollywood is going to turn out okay afterall. And seriously, Metropolitan is "An obscure choice, to be sure"??? Only if your experience of movies is limited to what gets shown on TNT as a "New Classic", I guess.
Way too much cool aid. The Republican Party has never embraced racists, but the democrats have. Just as Robert Byrd.
Let's play "Name That Party!"
Q: Which party still has a former KKK grand wizard in the Senate?
Q: Which party tells minorities that they probably won't succeed in life without government assistance?
Q: Which prominent speaker at this party's 2000 national convention had previously referred to New York as "Hymietown"?
Think hard. These could all be trick questions.
Let's play "Name That Party!"
Q: Which party still has a former KKK "Kleagle" member and recruiter in the Senate?
Q: Which party tells minorities that they probably won't succeed in life without government assistance?
Q: Which prominent speaker at this party's 2000 national convention had previously referred to New York as "Hymietown"?
Think hard. These could all be trick questions.
Let's play "Name That Party!"
Q: Which party still has a former KKK "Kleagle" (recruiter) in the Senate?
Q: Which party tells minorities that they probably won't succeed in life without government assistance?
Q: Which prominent speaker at this party's 2000 national convention had previously referred to New York as "Hymietown"?
Think hard. These could all be trick questions.
The 25 year thing is the problem to me. I'm not sure that there have been 25 great films period made since 1984. It's so arbitrary. It allows Red Dawn but excludes Taps which is a much better film in a similar vein. Although I think Milius deserves a lot of credit for making that film at a time when everyone in Hollywood was suppossed to be rallying to the cause of defeating Ronald Reagan in the next election. I think people have forgotten how hard the creative community was working to convince everyone that they were very likely going to die in a nuclear war at any moment. The Day After, etc. There was even an episode of Silver Spoons that ended in nuclear holocaust, for God's sake. Apparently Ricky Schroeder couldn't get along with Yuri Andropov.
Maura,
I hadn't commented previously on the "Top 25", and after reading your absolutely scorching screed, I'm damn glad I hadn't !
What a rip-snorter!
Keep it coming, you got my interest!
P.S. I LOVED "Remember the Titans". And "School of Rock" should be #1.
Well, the whole reason they started doing it was to celebrate the 25th anniversary of "Red Dawn," so ya can't hate too much.
Once you stop copying and pasting Wikipedia articles we'll be able to have a rational discussion. Nixon ran on States Rights and the rule of law, something that everyone can agree on regardless of their political affiliation. It won him big. Since Jimmy Carter won big in the South during his run for President, I'm going to start claiming that all the racists then left the Republicans for the Democrats and never came back, since you're saying only getting racists to vote for you will you win in the South.
Should we discuss how President Kennedy had the FBI investigate MLK for being a communist to discredit him? Or how Woodrow Wilson kicked almost all minorities out of federal jobs when he was elected? To try to claim that the Democrats are somehow more in favor of Civil Rights is an outright lie, and you're wrong.
THE LAND OF THE BLIND
Ralph Fiennes, Donald Sutherland
Easily one of the most underrated films, it is not the best, but it was given no chance because it attacked all forms of oppresion
Please watch this film. It was hated by the extreme left and right in europe(left and right in europe are different than here)
It mocks Facism and communism, it mocks the french revolution, red china, napoleon, kim jong il, south american dictators, Soviet-esqu thought, Leninism, corrupt democracies, or the idea that all political prisoners are correct or just simply because they are political prisoners. Anyone who loves history will love this movie and will have a hard time catching all the references
Stale Bread is Better than Nothing
Nothing is Better than a Big Juicy Steak
Therefore Nothing is Better than a Big Juicy Steak
Wait, I know this one… um… um.. the facts tell me it's the democrats, but my desire to blame the Republicans tells me it must be the Republicans. Ahhhhh (head explodes).
By the way, there are MANY more examples.
Come on now, Remember the Titans? The message may be nice and all, but that movie is so emotionally manipulative I was ready to gouge my ears out after an hour of listening to the music swell each and every time I was supposed to feeeeel something. The music in that movie completely ruined anything that might have been compelling, thought-provoking, or original in the story. Whenever the characters learned to let go of their prejudice and see each other as human beings and friends (so bascially, every ten minutes or so), the music got cranked up to 11 on the Uplifting scale, and it made me want to vomit.
And art is allowed to manipulate our emotions a little bit; I've got no problem with that. But when the music in a movie works so hard and so *relentlessly* to make sure the audience's heart-strings are being sufficiently rended, well, that movie's crossed over from art and moved into the realm of emotional bully: "Feel, dammit! Feel the emotional and historical significance of this scene! We cannot allow you to feel otherwise!!! You must feeeeel!" Uh, no thanks.
Author's intent is one things to consider, but if the author mistakenly writes something contrary to what they were trying to achieve, that's too bad. I always take the work at face value first.
Also, I don't think there are core American values that "everyone across the political spectrum" believes in any more. There may have been such a time (not sure, even at the founding there strong contrary opinions), but there aren't very many (if any) today.
I think you'll find that socialists, communists and libertarians disagree on most "core values." Atheist and Christians disagree on many "core values." Same the anarchists v. the law and order crowd?
Bingo. Fair OR NOT, conservatives have gotten the reputation as being anti-culture. We're caricatured as being Bible thumping, nostalgia-blinded, out of touch, cretins. That's something we need to overcome to get back into this debate. Statements like Shapiro made only play into that.
And for those who think art does not ennoble, does that include art like the Sistine Chapel, the Mona Lisa or Mozart's works?
How many know that the KKK was a Democrat-created effort to defame Republicans? They were formed inorder to "play act" at what the Left wanted to create as a negative stereotype about the Right. Admitted before Congress, by the way, in eventual testimony by a few who started the org. In other words, more of the Leftwing's "black propaganda" (no pun intended).
Yeah that list totally sucked for the most part.
Hey Maura — I'm a big fan of your work, but art doesn't ennoble. Nazi Germany was highly cultured, but absolutely brutal. It is a liberal cliche that if you play Beethoven, it makes you a better person. Or that if you watch Laurence Olivier, you can't be a member of the KKK. The most disturbing part about "The Lives of Others" was its insistence that Stasi folks are willing to turn things around if you can play the piano. It's the same liberal message as "The Pianist," one of the worst Holocaust films ever made.
I personally shudder whenever I see lists like these. (And the contention that it was "inspired" by the 25th Anniversary of Red Dawn–as one of the commentators stated–has my mind absolutely effing reeling. We want to remember Red Dawn, why? I'll put my cold warrior hawk chops up against anyone, but that movie was utter cartoonish nonense.) I mean what's the point: Here's 25/50/100 "conservative" movies/books/mad libs…why? I think NR recently did something really inane, like list the "top" "conservative" rock and roll songs. Hello? The average age of their readers is something like 69. Do they know rock and roll? Do they even go to movies? Are we so uncertain of our principles that we have to cocoon ourselves within some kind of echo chamber. "Oh, here are some movies and songs that support–in a way–our policy positions." And really? Ghostbusters? 300? For a movement founded on the writings of John Locke, among other titans, we seem to have, um, come down a few notches.
Sorry for the rant. Again, another great post, Maura. Look forward to your future posts.
Ben, just because art didn't ennoble in that instance doesn't mean that art can't ennoble. You made some excellent points about NR's list, even Ayn Rand recognized the importance of art. Art can ennoble, or art can merely gloss. Good art ennobles.
And another thing: The End of the Spear!
Heheheheh……Glenn, you're all right. Many of the people here don't know jack about the movies. Well played, sir.
Mad Libs are the juice!
Vastly undervalued in our "too-cool" culture.
I think it would be best if a top ten list of conservative films were set each year and they can compete against each other rather than this list of the last 25 years which leaves us grasping with our memories. Some of us are not old/experienced enough to have grasped the conservative mantle until recently (or 15 years ago as I did) and therefore have no recolection of ideology presented as entertainment.
i will concede the point as to music. the greatest composers of the last century lived under stalin's boot. fear of the gulag, or in some cases enthusiastic support of the dictatorship, produced truly beautiful work.
movies are somewaht different. they are at least supposed to have a plot. and once you have a plot, you cannot escape some sort of values system. i think the best of them might have an impact on behavior. the problem comes in that so many very talented film makers push morally inverted idiocy. che as hero for example.
Good point, Maura. Ben Shapiro is simply out of his intellectual depth discussing "The Lives of Others." I cannot see how anyone can watch the film, with its cold, fiendish and extremely cynical Stasi and SED (Socialist Unity Party) characters, and come away with the notion the Stasi and the East German government were full of "nice guys." I love the little touch of setting the film in 1984, by the way.
Yes, it is. But it's a 1983 pick.
Although it probably was playing this time in 1984.
Is there a link that it was inspired by the 25th anniversary of Red Dawn? I'd like to see one.
Here, 25, No particular order:
agree with the NRO list:
Metropolitan
The Lives of Others
The Dark Knight
United 93
Brazil
Braveheart
The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe
Groundhog Day
The Pursuit of Happyness
Forrest Gump
My add-ons:
4 Months, 3 Weeks, 2 Days – Romanian abortion movie, Ain't kind to the procedure or to communist totalitarianism. won Cannes
One Day in September – Palestinian terrorism and German bureaucratic incompetence end in the massacre of 11 Israeli athletes at the hippie-dippy 1972 Munich Olympics. Oscar winner for Best Doc.
Grizzly Man – New Age environmentalist ignores wisdom of the ages. Bear's stomach wins.
Die Hard – Blue-collar cop who might be Joe the Plumber's cousin fights and outwits Eurotrash terrorists. Unites family. Incompetent federales. A**hole media. Christmas story.
Barcelona – Whit Stillman's other conservative film – two American brothers fuss and tussle with brainless lefty Europeans. Good guys get the girls.
Passion of the Christ – c'mon.
Saving Private Ryan – Spielberg's politics aside, this would seem pretty obvious.
Ulee's Gold – Peter Fonda, Captain America himself, plays a rural Florida beekeeper trying to rebuild his family and defend it from the social maladies that arose in the sixties.
The Apostle – Robert Duvall's pet project .about the redemption of a defrocked minister.
The Invasion – I know, I'm the only one who thinks highly of this flawed film. Liberal psychiatrist who believes human nature is infinitely alterable gets to live in her Ritalin-style, conflict-free dream world. Turns out to be a horror movie.
Fargo – Sarah Palin soundalike Sheriff Marge Gunderson outwits the big city bad guys with common sense. and decency.
No Country for Old Men – Old sheriff horrified by modern nihilistic violence.
Millions – Danny Boyle film. Our little boy hero consults with saints about what to do with a bag of lost money. His Alex-P-Keaton brother wants to make money with it. The suburbs are presented as a wonderland.
Hoop Dreams – ultimate up-by-the-bootstraps documentary.
The Right Stuff – Probably still in theaters on an Oscar run in 1984. An easy choice.
I'd say that the Sistine Chapel, etc., don't ennoble… they inspire. Which was, after all, the purpose of religious art. What do you think "ennoble" means? Make us noble, I'd assume. And no, I don't think that art does that.
I do think that there is a conceit among the "cultured" classes that an appreciation for art and culture makes one a better person. On the other hand, I see no evidence of that, ever, in all of History. An appreciation of art does not make us better people. And there is something that goes along with that, too, and that's a deliberate elevation of "art" that is off-putting, that the "masses" dislike or don't understand. You know… stuff involving piss or mutilation or deliberately ugly paintings and sculpture… so when the unwashed look at it and don't appreciate it, then those who *do* can feel even more superior.
So yeah, Bible thumping (because piss in a cup is *art*), nostalgia-blinded, out of touch, cretins.
What does it mean that something can be relegated to "not art" by virtue of being accessible to too many people?
Maybe what it means is that the answer to the reputation of being anti-culture is to say, "Thank you, may I have another?"
I didn't sleep for a week after seeing Red Dawn, 25 years ago. I know teenagers now who said it gave them nightmares when they can watch horror flicks with no problem.
That reaction has nothing whatsoever to do with communism or a fear of it.
"And isn’t that lack of complexity one of the things that conservatives consistently (and justifiably) rail against in Hollywood?"
No, not really. The only time you'll catch a majority of "conservative" culture-commentators aching for complexity in movies is when the bad guys are THEM (i.e. "why are pro-lifers never the good guy??") Otherwise, they're the most enthusiastic supporters of simple, black-and-white moralism and cartoon catharsis out there…
CONTINUED:
You need look no further than the EMBARASSING amount of nigh-masturbatory "conservative" glee being spooged all over "Taken" for proof of this. Now, I REALLY liked Taken. It's a fantastic little revenge/rescue picture, and part of the forumla for it's artistic success is the added spice of angry and deliberate un-PC use of villian characters. My ISSUE is that it's somehow entered the rightie chattersphere that this is a "war on terror" film despite the fact that NONE of the bad guys are terrorists and the words Muslim, Islam and Islamofascist never even come up. So, the apparently rationale for this being a "war on terror" film is that one of the two (three, really) baddie teams are Middle Easterners – in other words, "huzzah! I get to see people of roughly the same race as terrorists get beat up and shot! It's party time!!" Meanwhile, movies that DO feature characters who ARE terrorists being blasted like "The Kingdom" and "Body of Lies" they largely reject because they dare to include a modicum of complexity.
"Remember the Titans" was semi-entertaining, but far from accurate.
The real Titans were hardly gritty underdogs. They were a powerhouse that went undefeated, and won the Virginia state championship without working up a sweat.
Moreover, nearly all the players agree that integration went very smoothly, with almost no real problems.
The movie showed racial conflicts that didn't really occur, and tough obstacles that the real Titans never had to overcome.
http://www.71originaltitans.com/faqs.html
Who cares? It's still a great movie.
You need look no further than the EMBARASSING amount of nigh-masturbatory "conservative" glee being spooged all over "Taken" for proof of this.
I can't help but kind of chuckle in agreement here– and I really liked "Taken" too. I guess we, as in conservatives, have so few choices in our entertainment in which we see our values reflected back at us that we kind on latch onto the first thing we see. I tend to go overboard over "The Dark Knight." I looooove that movie.
Well, I did see a PBS special that noted that Martin Luther King, Sr. was a Republican. The only reason MLK I switched parties was because JFK did the right thing by having MLK II freed after being falsely imprisoned.
It should be noted that King's views on social issues would brand him as too conservative by the modern Democratic Party. King thought infanticide was evil as he wrote in "Letter from a Birmingham Jail":
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_B...
So, the hardcore pro-abortion Democrats would loath King.
King also believed that Black communities would thrive by putting emphasis on strong traditional families, starting their own businesses, and saving money. Read "Some Things We Must Do":
http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publications/p...
King just ticked off Democrats who support radical feminism, gay marriage, welfare and fiscal irresponsibility.
So, King being a Democrat is based on whether you mean the classic or modern definition.
bs'd
So why are you here?
+1 for Second Hand Lions! Loved the film and loved its humor and message. I had relatives growing up who Hub and Garth could have been modeled after (except for that French Foreign Legion thing) that greatly influenced me. In fact, there were a few times where the Hub character said something in frustration with someone else's B.S. and my kids turned to me and said, "That's just like you!"
My kids have rewatched it several times since.
Wood, I agree with you, the makers said it's not.. but that being said, there are times, when the conservative message just filters through, and lefties that make and act in films just don't ever seem to realize it. Unfortunately, sometimes neither do the audiences.
Cool! Another one of the anvils I love to hammer on! Regarding the concept of, "art ennobles" the answer is "yes" of course, IF it is actually art we are talking about and not some stream of insipid drivel. To become a real, actual artist requires dedication, discipline, and a lot of hard work – in addition to natural talent/genetic proclivity or whatever you want to call it – to acquire and develop the technique needed to create masterful works. This applies to painting, sculpture, and other visual arts, but it is of especially paramount importance in the king of all arts, which is music, of course. I mean, any child can paint, but it takes actual work learn how to play an instrument.
Consider what a master instrumentalist is called: "Virtuoso." Or, a master composer: "Maestro." To sum it up, mastery comes through virtuous pursuit, and the journey is eminently ennobling. This is actually THE OPPOSITE of a "liberal" idea – meaning leftist in the modern corruption of meaning – as there is nothing "liberal" about the virtuous pursuit of perfection. That's actually a conservative concept… which is why, for example, every great composer has been a Christian, without even a single exception to prove the rule (No, Mahler and Bernstein were not great, just really really good).
MB, I think you miss the point. The movie lays out the notion, that there is right and wrong, good and evil, and many conservatives feel that modern day relativism has rendered us unable of realizing that anymore. Once you have decided you don't know what is evil, nothing is. This movie allows us to realize that evil does exist and one doesn't need a PhD in some psuedo-pyscho babble area of study to acknowledge that it does. Of course then you have the fantasy of really making some guys who deserve bad things to happen to them actually have those bad things happen. That is just pure escape.
Great post, Maura Flynn. In general I agreed with Ben's list but I also had a problem with the "art ennobling" dismissal.
I think a lot of conservatives are reflexively skeptical of the proposition that art ennobles simply because we're inundated with art-as-agitprop from Hollywood. So many films, TV shows, even musicians lately have decided that their political or social agenda will be the tail that wags the dog of their "vision." So I can see how some of the touches re: the theater, music in TLOO would rub some the wrong way.
One of the reasons I think Hannibal Lector is such a great villian is that he shatters the liberal proposition that people are inherently good and just need the right education and culture to make them into productive citizens. Dude loved his art, and also his liver au-census-taker with fava beans and a nice chianti.
I'm speaking of early, Silence Of The Lambs Lector of course. One of the many problems with the later films (and books) is that we began to be asked to sympathize with this monster instead of fervently hoping agent Starling would just put him down.
I'll add that even those who are otherwise liberal enjoy movies with clear, Black and White morality. Many of my Democrat relatives, friends and co-workers really enjoy well done comic-based films with clear heroes and villains like Spider-Man, The Dark Knight, Iron Man, and 300. Conversely, morally relativistic comic flicks like the pro-terrorist V for Vendetta get snubbed. (Actually, if box office is any indication, V's underperformance wasn't limited to my neck of America.) Plugged In had a great commentary on this trend:
http://www.pluggedinonline.com/read/read/A0004106...
Thus, only the most Far Left liberal would have a problem with action films whether comic-based or orignal (e.g., Taken) that acknowledge evil exists and must be defeated.
I don't mind so much that there are so few conservative friendly movies. I just wish there were fewer movies that insisted on kicking me in the teeth for being a Republican. As far as pro Republican movies go, I love Team America and anything by Whit Stilman. What happened to him?
Thank you for responding to that comment that Ben Shapiro made the other day. I don't know Shapiro and I'm sure that he will have a nice future ahead of him, but frankly that comment he made about art not being ennobling was extremely foolish. And I hate to pull the "age card", but I think it really revealed his youth. Anyways, I think it was important that somebody made some sort of rebuttal.
An interesting give and take, this. A bit of personal history if I may: I was 18 in 1979, the first person I voted for for president was Ronaldus Magnus and I currently work in the movie business (the low budget world mostly). For years I've cringed when Right minded people tended to talk about art because it was just so out of touch, so lost. It was with great hope I started coming to BH and for the most part I'm thrilled with the opinions (and debates) I've encountered here.
I'm sorry to say I'm not overly familiar with Mr. Shapiro, but his claim of "…art enobles is a liberal cliche" is utter nonsense. Art shows us what we're capable of, it inspires and enobles. Is there sillyness out there masquarading as art? Of course there is.
What do the Sistine Chapel, Beethoven's 5th and Stevie Ray Vaughan's playing have in common?
They are proof to me of the existence of God. And I'm not the most religious guy out there.
The director's views, whatever they may be, are irrelevant once a movie is released. Once that's done, it takes on a life of its own. If it's good and compelling and honest, then it is probably conservative at its core – no wonder what the writers or directors or producers MEANT to say.
The conservatism of movies stands on the strength of a movie alone. Otherwise, The Hunt for Red October would be a lefty movie just because Alec Baldwin is in it.
The notion that art enobles is a liberal cliche. There is no known correlation between artistic endeavor and moral behavior.
Mr. Shapiro, as has been brought up in counter arguments to your point on The Lives Of Others, the German soldier in The Pianist is just one specific soldier, and not one who was representative of the Nazi regime. Just because one member of the Stasi is "willing to turn things around if you can play the piano", if it is the case in The Lives Of Others, it does not mean he represents the whole of the Stasi, nor does it sugarcoat the actions of the Stasi (same also with the Nazis in The Pianist). I also have a hard time believing The Pianist is one of the worst Holocaust films ever made. I don't know what your argument for it would be; I just have a hard time believing it.
I was trying to speak to modern day relativism not so much liberal, although I understand that moral relativism would find a wider embrace in the liberal camp than the conservative one.That's why I tried to play it more on the conservative, that's what they like as opposed to that is what liberal's dislike. Obviously, there are dangers in such a sweeping statement as a particular sentiment being exclusive to one group or the other. Let's just say that a modern day liberal democrat is much more comfortable with accommodating evil than confronting it from a political perspective – with the strident islamofascists getting a significant pass on their behavior and statements from the left.
I am with you on V. I don't think much of the lead actress anyway so I was destined to not like it, but the movement to terrorist seems a little stretched. I am sure more ardent libertarian posters might look at it as the desparate attempts of the individual to get the system off their back, but I saw it more as a complaint with what the system wanted to do, than that we had one at all.
MLK's daughter condemns the Demoncrats' advocacy of abortion.
To the Left "culture" is defined as that which negates (usually, others, particularly if they're Christians). You should broaden your horizons as to what you define as "culture" — there is a lot of "culture" created by, enjoyed and participated in by Conservatives, just not the "culture" the Left can tolerate.
The preponderance of "mocking" is what sinks that film — despite all the hype and hoopla (across age and interest groups), human being still expect some measure of "saving grace" from films and it's why we even attend theatre of all genres.
One may not easily, if ever, get that admission from the more hardened, resentful and embittered among the human race (as from among, say, many in their teens/early twenties who fancy The Dark), but essentially, they like other humans maintain an expectation from "entertainment" (media, filmed and recorded, mostly) that whatever their ideals are will be rewarded.
Thus, the expectation that "art ennobles".
I'll reprint this here, my previous comments to another, which also apply here:
…despite all the hype and hoopla (across age and interest groups), human beings still expect some measure of "saving grace" from films and it's why we even attend theatre of all genres.
One may not easily, if ever, get that admission from the more hardened, resentful and embittered among the human race (as from among, say, many in their teens/early twenties who fancy The Dark), but essentially, they — like other humans — maintain an expectation from "entertainment" (media, filmed and recorded, mostly) that whatever their ideals are will be rewarded.
Thus, the expectation that "art ennobles".
And, Ben Shapiro, those you deem evil did, in fact, experience being "enobbled" by "art". What one's ideals are is the distinguishing factor, socially and oftentimes culturally, but enmity can, indeed, be "enobbled" by "art."
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