Let’s Talk About Mormons (and ‘Big Love’)!
by JudeTonight, HBO’s “Big Love,” which has become tremendous television, runs its season finale. In spite of the fact that the first large media portrayal of Mormons living and working in America (in my memory) is based around a rogue polygamist family, a truly cultish “compound” of polygamists worshiping a nefarious self-proclaimed prophet (Harry Dean Stanton!), and some corrupt elements of the actual Church of LDS, I gather that at least some Mormons watch each new episode eagerly. I understand, because however you want to describe the structure of the show or how it portrays the Mormon Church, it has produced one memorable character after another and as many compounding plot twists as the genre can handle so well. And then there’s the acting – it’s wonderful.
Watch it now or later, but if the premise of one man with three attractive wives somehow turned you off from the series…or let’s say, turned someone in your house off from the series…the show’s exploration of love and family will surprise you with its heart and concern for tradition. Jeanne Tripplehorn’s performance as “Barb” (the first wife) could carry you through this season alone. Hey, the main title song is literally “God Only Knows,” with Carl Wilson singing forever through the opening credits.
More about the show after the jump, but here’s my question: how has the show changed or informed your impression of Mormons? If you’re LDS, what do you think of the show? People older than I say that George Romney faced nothing like the anti-Mormon bias that his son Mitt did in his Presidential campaign. I’m REALLY not hoping for a stream of religious doctrinal lecture, because I think we’ve bottomed out with our current President’s religious “commitments” anyway. (And I know that’s kind of an unsubstantiated slag, but I grew up watching certain dads fake it in Church on holidays, and I think I know someone doing it for appearances when I see him.)
So, can the GOP get past an LDS candidate running for national office?
Are the traditional families (with the exception of the polygamists) on the show not some of the most wholesome seen on TV in a while? And what about the fact that the good characters on the show are naturally softening some hearts toward plural marriage, which the LDS Church condemns – will this lead to faster acceptance when Islam asks for it as it will in time?
Please discuss – don’t hate, as our friends like to say!
Now, I watch a lot of HBO. I think the 13 hour drama may be the greatest form of multimedia art at this point. Watching small characters come to life through the writers’ direction is always a pleasure on cable, but the acting on this series somehow sets it apart for me. I’m almost never taken out of the show by an actor faking it. Every extra and bit player with a line comes across as real and well cast. Maybe it’s because the circumstances are so often unbelievable (actors can tell us), but I’m just impressed or delighted with one performance after another as this show rolls on. Needless to say the leads are all strong, and the supporting cast – teenagers and adults – are no less believable and interesting. The only character I didn’t believe for a while, Nicky, as played by Chloe Sevigny, has finally revealed herself to be the sociopath acting through life we all hoped she would. I proudly watch this soap opera.
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159 Comments
Mormons don't call polygamists Mormons, they don't consider them worthy of it. Mormons don't want to be in any political party in particular, but the Republican party is the only one likely to see one make it past a primary election. There is no one political platform that all Mormons would fit on. Not even close. But, speaking of generalizations, they do tend to put their money where their mouth is.
As far as the show? This show is uninteresting, or at least it was too boring to me to keep watching after the one episode I did watch.
I am LDS and have never seen the show. But I find it that out of all that the church offers, that it is polygamy that is in the larger light. But again, the church leadership has said to just judge for yourself and ignore it. They are not into boycotting anything. I choose to do the same thing. I would hate to be boycotted myself.
But one has to understand the knee-jerk reactions that Mormons (members, not leadership) give. They are so used to getting crap from people, it can sometimes be hard to be objective.
When the temple ceremony was on the screen, it did strike a chord. (obvious marketing pull) I can't help but to think it is due to the "involvement' of members in Prop 8. It seems pretty obvious. One of the writers used to be Mormon (the gay writer of Milk). Plus Tom Hanks comments about the church.
I do think they could have gone without it. I spent two weeks with the Navajos on a documentary on weaving and I respected their wishes to not film certain ceremonies. I felt they could done the same.
Usually HBO has things that are technically well done and good acting. So as far as the show itself, I have no idea.
I am LDS and I don't watch it. I have watched documentaries about RLDS families. And some of my ancestors were polygamous when it was "canon" to be so. But HBO's version does not interest me in the least. I have had friends say to me, "I know so much more about what you believe now. I LOVE "Big Love." And I just sigh and shake my head.
Exactly.
I've watched the show, I don't like the show, most people I've met that watch the show don't realize the main family isn't LDS.
The reason plural marriage exists in any context, religious or otherwise, is that men are wired to prefer younger women sexually. There's nothing more to it than that. That's what drew Joseph Smith in. That's why the author of this post find's the show intriguing.
I've never watched Big Love and I am not a Mormon — but I was a very strong supporter of Mitt Romney and will be again in 2012 because he is, in my opinion, going to be the next great Republican President. Mitt can communicate Republican beliefs and principals better than anyone on the national stage I have heard. And with a such a large and warm family in the White House the nation would be constantly reminded of how important family is and the abundance of children would again be seen as a blessing, not a curse to be curtailed for the sake of the "global warming." Here's what makes Republicans different than Democrats in my world. I strongly disagree on some major issues with Mr. Romney (Like his archaic stance on medical marijuana) but I wouldn't not allow my self interest to stand in the way for what is best for America. I can vote against my own vices because I know that's what they are.
I didn't know you knew Joseph Smith personally. You must be very old. I take it you also know Jude personally since you seem to be able to tell us what's in their hearts and minds.
Television doesn't inform my impression of anything except television writers.
Saying "What do you think of this religious group? Please don't discuss doctrine" is a little like saying "What do you think of this political party? Please don't discuss political issues." Doctrine is what makes a religion.
I am LDS and have never watched Big Love nor do I ever intend to. I don't know any other Mormons who watch it or are interested in watching it. The characters in Big Love are not Mormon. It really gets tiring constantly having to correct people on their misperceptions of LDS. It doesn't help when Tom Hanks and Hollywood decided to spread their ideas of what Mormons are and do. I think it's disrespectful and political on their parts.
I like Mitt Romeny but I don't think he'll ever be a serious contender for the White House based on peoples prejudices towards Mormons. Shows like Big Love don't help.
I am not a member of LDS but I have many friends and acquaintances that are. They are great people — honest, caring, helpful, reliable and patriotic. I can’t think of another group of people that I have encountered in my 60 years that so consistently embody the ideals that our culture traditionally values.
I think this is why Hollywood needs to demonize them. They are fundamentally good. They stand for what is right. Therefore, they must be destroyed.
I think the same was true of Sarah Palin. She was everything a ‘liberal’ woman was supposed to be and more. She was good to her core. Therefore she had to be demonized and destroyed.
Yeah, she was so "good" that she charged the taxpayers of Alaska tens of thousands of dollars in per diems to live in her own house and paid for her children to travel with her on the taxpayers' dime.
I am LDS and I watched the first two seasons and some of this one, but I had to give up on it. There are some behind-the-scenes axe-grinders at Big Love, and while I was used to the regular LDS people portrayed as jerks or idiots, they've stepped it up this season. I like the acting too, and I'd just ignore all the pokes and jabs they were taking at Utah, but you can't really label whatever Bill's religion is as "Mormon" though the makers would like you to. They're a polygamous offshoot from the 1800's where Bill obviously knows it isn't divinely inspired (hello, he knows their "prophet" is a murderer), but he still believes in their way. It doesn't make any sense.
Well a) we already saw the Mormon Temple ceremony — in the first version of Battlestar Galactica with Lorne Greene – so nothing new here.
I was Mormon from 4th grade through high School. Mormons are fruitcakes. They believe all sorts of crazy things like the idea that there are 3 Nephites that wander around and occasionally help some poor woman carry a heavy TV up the stairs, or that when they die the men get their own planets or that the men are given a secret name for their wife and if their wife disobeys they can refuse to tell God their wife's name, thus keeping them out of heaven. God lives on some planet called Kolob or something like that. They are all fruitcakes like the Scientologists and the idea that they have any right to decide – push a vote – against minority rights to marriage is laughable. The idea that someone could be President while believing all this crazy crap, and being a bigot to boot, is terrifying.
The Show is really good though.
What does this show do for America? it introduces the idea that plural marraige is ok and normal.
It harms traditional marriage, children and women. it pushes the envelope toward islamification.
Today the young get tatoos. Twenty years from now, they will wear chadors.
You're a dope.
Jude, I am not Mormon and I've never played one on tv, though I've known Mormons all my life. I watch Big Love because I've generally liked the stuff HBO has put together. It took a couple episodes, but the show hooked me — although I've slacked a bit this season.
Maybe I'm unusual because I've known Mormons, but it was always clear to me that this family was not Mormon. In fact, part of the premise of the show is how they don't fit in with the Mormons around them.
I also feel that the show does a pretty decent job of showing Mormons as good people and distinguishing them from the nuts on the compound. Moreover, while it appears at first glance, that the show is saying that Bill's version of "harmless polygamy" can be a good thing, I think that's too superficial a reading. It is because of his "harmless polygamy" that he keeps being dragged into deeper and deeper into trouble. Thus, I would argue that the message is actually that being "half-immoral" is just as bad as being "fully-immoral".
Jude, thanks for the interesting post. I haven't seen the show often, but from what I have seen I agree with you that the acting is good, the characters are intriguing, and the plot is suitably soapy.
What I like best about it, as a libertarian, is that it serves to remind that the government probably shouldn't be involved in marriages at all — except for the purpose of protecting children (usually young girls) from the practices of certain wacky religious sects. What would be wrong with that?
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (yes, that means 'Mormon') I can agree with Kels above when he said Mormons have 'knee-jerk' reactions to the show. Although Mormons haven't practiced polygamy since 1890, polygamy is still the first thing most people think of when they think "Mormon." This usually leads to denunciations of Mormons being "evil," "a cult," or "weird." It's hard for members of the church to overcome the misconceptions associated with being considered a polygamist. Instead of seeing Mormons as normal people following religious teachings, people picture us living on a YFZ compound and shunning the outside world. Instead of thinking of Mormons as being people like Mitt Romney, Glenn Beck, Thomas S. Monson, or even Harry Reid, people see us all as being Warren Jeffs; secretive and immoral. Instead of seeing a religion that distributes humanitarian aid to 167 countries and every state in the U.S., they see us as inclusive and suspicious of anyone outside of the religion, or people who have to hide their activities, like the characters in 'Big Love'.
Look, most Mormons are (or at least try to be) good, patriotic, helpful, friendly, educated people. There are always those who slip through the cracks, but what religion (or organization) doesn't have its 'bad apples'? (Sorry, obscure Osmond reference there.) However, because of shows like 'Big Love,' people continue to associate Mormons with polygamy. It's not a tragedy; it's just annoying. The show may be brilliant – I don't know. I'm a starving college student who couldn't pay for HBO even if I wanted to. If people watch the show, they most likely know that the family depicted there isn't Mormon, and that's all we want. Most people who don't watch it, though, still carry negative, polygamy-fueled misconceptions that we Mormons try every day to overcome. It's an uphill battle, but so are most ones worth fighting.
Of course it's true that men are "wired" to seek women of prime child-bearing age. That's just biology. Marriage is a societal construct designed to protect women as they age (and their children). This is why marriage became a sacrament / ritual in most religions. On the whole, as social engineering goes — and despite divorce rates — this has worked shockingy well. No doubt that Joseph Smith was using the guise of religion to circumvent societal norms. He certainly wasn't the first.
It's not hard to understand that men wouldn't mind sleeping around. But it's tough to imagine why any man would want more than one WIFE. It's even tougher to imagine why anyone would wish to stop him…the guy is bound to get EXACTLY what he deserves. And yes, that's a big part of why Big Love is intriguing. It's a snapshot of an alternate universe.
Vince …the show may make a very clear distinction between the church and the characters on the show but you and I both know that generally people will smudge the line between the 2. As far as myself I don't watch the show but I also believe so much in the First Amendment I support HBO's right to show what they want. Nothing from man can stop the work of God and we would be a pretty poor group if we were too worried about what a bunch of Hollywood writers would say about us.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has a long history of persecution because of our beliefs and doctrines. When these periods were worse than at other times the Church always prospered and grew.
My opinion is…..BRING IT ON…lol
He I resent that….I happen to like fruitcakes !!!!
I always love it when people tell us what we Mormons believe…and when they're never quite right. It's always good for a giggle.
And 'fruitcake' is actually my dad's favorite insult. Sometimes he even uses it in conjunction with his Mormon swearword: 'Tar. '
I didn't say I have never seen the show. I said I don't watch it. I have seen enough of it to know that the normal person might make some incorrect conclusions based on what is said and shown…just an observation thats all
I got one even better…."Flippin" We moved to Arkansas 2 years ago and there actually is a town nearby called Flippin…….Flippin Bank, Flippin Police Car, Flippin Baptist Church……….too flippin funny….:)
I got one even better…."Flippin" We moved to Arkansas 2 years ago and there actually is a town nearby called Flippin…….Flippin Bank, Flippin Police Car, Flippin Baptist Church……….too flippin funny….:)
Just had to say something, didn't you? You could have passed over this whole conversation in disgust and left us Republicans to our amusing little delusions, but no.
That's the thing I understand least about liberals — they are incapable of laughing up their sleeves. If they feel contempt, they have to express it as openly, as vocally, and as loudly as possible. It's not enough just to hate someone, they have to tell him to his face.
What good is hate or ignorance if you can't share it? Besides, it makes little creatures like Pete feel big to talk back to people — something he never got to do in real life.
I'm not a Mormon and I know that they hold doctrines that seem ridiculous to me. But at least they're not vicious like you.
Humm, what is terrifying to me is what Obama has managed to do in the short time he has been in office.
Your assessment of Mormons appears to come from some deep seated anger, thus the truth you attempted to speak was distorted. It is ok to speak about the things you disagree about, just get your facts straight.
Why is that men mostly oppose polygamy?
Because they lose.
Take Big Love. The rich businessman has three wives. This means two men do without.
Simple as that. God is not turning out marriageable age women like widgets from a cosmic factory. Polygamy guarantees many men will do without wives and thus seek violence to get them. The show from what I gather does depict how violence colors the polygamist lifestyle.
If you are a rich and charismatic guy, or a woman, yeah Polygamy can make sense. Many women like the system, but heck look at all the kids. They look "adorable" now but wait until the kids and wives start fighting over the estate. THAT will be fun. And of course did I mention that most men lose in polygamy?
I've never seen this show, not the least reason because it's by HBO and therefore immediately suspect.
"Entertainment" always has a political point of view and is *always* a subtle form of brainwashing, one way or the other. I prefer to come to my own conclusions than to be "entertained" into the producer's worldview and belief system.
I will say the following, and these are my personal experiences, not from television.
(1) I have been called a bigot (I'm a born-again Christian) by Mormons for expressing the reasons I do not consider Mormonism Christian. Polygamy is the least of it; most of it has to do with their additional holy Scriptures, their alteration of the Bible, and their additional beliefs (on prophets, hierarchies, and the afterlife, among other things), which I consider to be outside the pale.
(2) Personally, the Mormons I know are very nice people. I have never met one I disliked, and have always gotten along well with them. They've been coworkers, neighbors, and friends — ones who have come over to my house and vice versa.
(3) In 2008, I would not have voted for Romney. This was partially due to his faith, but mostly to do with what I saw as a lack of consistency, and a kind of opportunism. I do think he's an asset to the Republican party, but he wouldn't be my first choice for President or Presidential candidate. Of course, if it were a choice between him and Obama, I'd pick him. I suppose if he were the Republican nominee, I would vote for him, but I wouldn't be particularly thrilled about doing so.
(4) I have never met more vicious Palin-haters than Mormons. Not all Palin-haters are Mormon, and not all Mormons are Palin-haters, but there seems to be a certain correlation that I have observed. I believe it is due to the fact that I think Mormons felt "dissed" and resentful when Palin was chosen over Romney to be McCain's running mate. This has led to something I see over and over in the comment section of blogs I frequent, where a poster will simultaneously bash Palin and promote the virtues of Romney with a particular single-mindedness and viciousness. I believe there were many Romney supporters who went on to work for McCain who harbored resentment towards Palin, and I think the fact of this internal strife was part of what helped sink our ship in 2008. It certainly didn't help.
(5) In 2012 I would like to see Romney and Palin go head to head in the primaries, so that whenever one wins over the other, there won't be a lot of post-outcome second guessing and resentment. Hopefully. If Palin were to win over Romney in the primaries, the Romneyites could find it in themselves to close ranks and get behind Palin, instead of trying to derail her out of some sense of jealousy of having been short-changed.
(6) There are very few female Mormon politicians; I think I can count them all on one hand. There are none currently on the national stage. I think there was a lot of jealousy on the part of female Mormons towards Palin — not only was she chosen over Romney, but she was a successful conservative woman politician in her own right, which seems to be, for whatever reason, not a viable career choice for Mormon women, if the numbers indicate anything. If I were a Mormon woman, I'd probably be pissed, too, and I might end up directing that anger and resentment towards Palin instead of towards my own community.
I'm not Mormon, but I could say the EXACT same thing about born-again Christians.
I find myself defending Mormons quite often (though I am not one). It essentially boils down to the same point: Regardless of what you think of the faith and its tenets, have you ever met a Mormon that wasn't exceedingly decent?
For those who use the word 'Christian' in that very exclusive tone (you know what I mean), Mormonism is little more than a cult. However, it is about 5 times the size of the Episcopal Church in the U.S. (That's my old stomping ground, before they drove themselves off a cliff.) Sure, their beliefs may be odd from the point of view of a mainstream Protestant, but rarely do you hear such vitriol or disgust slung at Catholics for going to town on human flesh. Oh, but that's understandable because… it's… older.
And I love the show. At first it was like a train wreck in slow motion. You simply can't pull away. But Jude is right. The acting is great. The twists, engaging. The characters, compelling. The show is, simply, diverting.
But most importantly, I have half a brain. I know how little I have learned about LDS from this silly little show.
*SPOILER ALERT*
I actually felt relief that the letter was fake, as though I were a Mormon. I don't like the idea that this show would demean that faith for ratings. I also find the church's response to this show to be refreshingly adult. That, I think, may win them followers.
I find myself defending Mormons quite often (though I am not one). It essentially boils down to the same point: Regardless of what you think of the faith and its tenets, have you ever met a Mormon that wasn't exceedingly decent?
For those who use the word 'Christian' in that very exclusive tone (you know what I mean), Mormonism is little more than a cult. However, it is about 5 times the size of the Episcopal Church in the U.S. (That's my old stomping ground, before they drove themselves off a cliff.) Sure, their beliefs may be odd from the point of view of a mainstream Protestant, but rarely do you hear such vitriol or disgust slung at Catholics for going to town on human flesh. Oh, but that's understandable because… it's… older.
And I love the show. At first it was like a train wreck in slow motion. You simply can't pull away. But Jude is right. The acting is great. The twists, engaging. The characters, compelling. The show is, simply, diverting.
But most importantly, I have half a brain. I know how little I have learned about LDS from this silly little show.
*SPOILER ALERT*
I actually felt relief that the letter was fake, as though I were a Mormon. I don't like the idea that this show would demean that faith for ratings. I also find the church's response to this show to be refreshingly adult. That, I think, may win them followers.
Mormon woman here. I loved Governor Palin and every Mormon I knew did. GwynsMom seems to like the word 'vicious', but I personally think we need to take her words with a grain of salt. A big grain of salt. I was and am a Romney supporter, but I gladly supported Palin. Many of us felt a great deal of personal relief when Romeny dropped out, although we were sad for the opportunity the country lost. My religious beliefs are a deep and important part of who I am and to be targeted again and again by people is hard. Sorry GwynsMom, but you seem to have taken the wrong track on your ideas. My ties within the Mormon community stretch from California to Utah to Arkansas to North Carolina and lots of other places. No where have I come across anyone that was bitter or jealous of Palin. She was loved and respected by all the Mormons I know. Many of them spent vast amounts of time and effort campaigning and supporting her and McCain. Jealousy? My goodness, that was some really twisted reasoning.
Mitt Romney was the most qualified candidate last fall to know how to turn around a failing economy, and I suspect that's he'll still be the best qualified four years from now. If the economy still needs help by then (and I'm pretty sure it will), then his resume as a person who fixes things will look pretty darn good. He comes across as nice, though perhaps a little boring, but if the Obama administration ends up imploding, I'm betting in four years people will gladly take the boring candidate who has proven he can get the job done over a charismatic one who can't, and not a moment too soon. Will it matter if he's a Mormon? I'd like to think people will be more enlightened by then, but am not holding my breath.
I'm a Mormon who watched a lot of the first season of Big Love, which a friend edited for me, so while I'm not up to date with the show in its current form, did get to see the writing and how things were portrayed. (Did you Mormons who saw it edit it too? If so how?) Veronica Mars had just been cancelled or was close to it, if I recall, and a new show with not one but TWO VM alums that I loved, plus was about kooky Utah ploygamists? Curiosity totally killed the cat. I thought the writing was excellent and the acting was great; I'm sure it still is. Knowing now that one of the writers is a gay ex-Mormon, I can see why he set his polygamists living among Mormons in Utah and not just have them be some random polygamists somewhere; write what you know and all that. I think the stronger undercurrents of what love and family really are, and realistically showing the downsides to a polygamous lifestyle, made the show stronger than just some typical soapy harem-type drama. But there were still things in it that rang false, and made me wince about this being the first major portrayal of Mormons that some people would ever see. Come on, there WILL be people who judge us based on this show — on an ex-member's portrayal of us — and it's hard for that to sit right with me. Really TV, we couldn't get the first major Mormon character ever to be some nice, average secondary character on a sitcom or something, like you do for every other minority? Oh right, we're Christian, you hate Christians. At least we got a fair shake on South Park, and maybe I should consider that the first Mormon portrayal; I don't know of one Mormon who didn't love that episode, historical inaccuracies aside. Most Mormons are quite self-deprecating, if you ever actually meet them in person; we know we are different and don't mind poking fun at those differences; we do it all the time. But we also value respect, and I think the problem that a lot of Mormons have is that they don't feel that the people who write, create and produce Big Love actually respect the Mormon church at all. The whole making fun with versus at thing. And I hate to say it, but from recent comments like those spoken by Mr. Hanks, I think the truth of that is being proven more and more every day.
And as for the temple episode, I'm not upset really that they did it; more at WHY I feel they did it. Namely using something Mormons consider sacred (not secret, big difference) as a media-hyped gimmick to boost ratings, and if they tick off members of the church also then bonus points, more publicity. Because nothing is sacred anymore right? And their apology statement before the episode ever aired was the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Again, it comes down to respect.
"This show isn't anymore anti-Mormon, anti-Utah or anti-polygamy (and I recognize that they all aren't the same thing) than "The Soprano's" was seen as perpetuating negative Italian-American stereotypes"
If the general population had an accurate understanding of who we LDS are, and there were other fictional portrayals of Mormons that were more accurate, then I'd agree with you, but that's not the case. People showed up at the 2002 Winter Olympics demanding to "see the Mormons," thinking that we were like Mennonites, dressed up funny and riding around in horse-drawn carriages.
The only time I've seen a positive portrayal of a fictional Mormon on TV was on House. The aspirant to House's staff was cast as a black guy, and he was a decent character, even though Dr. House hurled invective at him to see what he could get away with (because that's what House does). House's Cruel Nickname for the guy? "Big Love."
Look, maybe the show itself makes a distinction between the polygs and the actual Mormons, but those who don't watch the show still "know" that the show is about Mormons living in polygamy. The nuance is lost on them.
So thanks, HBO, for making our lives harder.
I kept seeing that negative number, reading your post, and scratching my head. You're contributing to the discussion, so I guess people are just disagreeing with you with the thumbs up/down thing, which is not what I thought it was for.
Thumbs up!
Yes, they aren't vicious at all. It is a lovely religion that sees women as second-class citizens and tries to take away the rights of others. Sorry if I said something critical (and true) about this loving and humanitarian sect.
I have never found any LDS person who was a Palin-hater. When Romney was eliminated, many of us felt set adrift because we did not like McCain. Sarah Palin was a refreshing breeze and my conservative friends and I voted for McCain BECAUSE of Palin. We would have endured McCain because of Palin. I would like to see a Romney-Palin ticket, myself.
Yes, polygamy is not a good idea for the general population. I am LDS and would not support efforts to make it legal. It would be a disaster for just the reasons you cite.
Among the polyg cults, the excess males are expelled from the society and dumped on the doorstep of the general population. They've been told they're not good enough to have wives (EVIL SINNERS!) and they have no idea how to function in normal society.
Among the early LDS, however, many more women joined the church, many more men left when the going got tough, and women survived the cold winter in tents after our expulsion from Nauvoo as well as the 1000-mile trek west.
To a large extent, polygamy was a welfare program. When a men took a second wife, she had to be a woman who was widowed or abandoned. She often had children already. Back in those days, a woman could not make it alone.
Circumstances also made it prudent for us to repopulate as quickly as possible.
Furthermore, the Book of Mormon makes it clear that the default commandment is monogamy.
"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [to take extra wives]; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things [the commandment to practice monogamy only]. –Jacob 2:30
Excellent Ernie. That edit makes the show. Couldn't have chosen a better tune. And I agree with Woke Up This Morning – best theme ever.
It's fun to read some of the sniping in these messages because, after all, it's mostly between competing gangs of heretics who don't recognize the authority of the Pope, and so they're all damned. ;p
And now I'm going to go run away and hide.
Where on EARTH do you meet Mormons who are ripping Palin? I am LDS and I totally dig her.
*SIGH*… there always has to be one, doesn't there?
I live right smack dab in the middle of Mormondom – Salt Lake City, UT. I can assure "GwynsMom" that Sarah Palin was, and is, HUGELY popular amongst Republicans in this city and state. If there were any LDS Republicans with negative opinions of Sarah Palin, I certainly never encountered them. "Enthusiastic" just barely scratched the surface – every life-long Republican (dozens!) I encountered considered her "one of us," and also considered her the "better half" of the ill-fated Republican ticket.
Regardless (on paper, anyway), Romney is still the better candidate for 2012, but that wasn't an option this last time 'round, when Palin had near-universal support among the party loyal in the state of Utah. If she beats Romney and the rest of the field and makes it through the primaries next time, she'll have that kind of support again, in spades.
Now, let me indulge in a bit of amateur psychoanalysis here, too (like you have done), and suggest that your negativity toward Mormons in general and LDS females in particular has far more to do with your personal biases than the all-sweeping dislike for Sarah Palin that you've alleged. If I were you (and sincerely interested in living a Christ-centered life) I'd spend some quality time exploring my own "anger and resentment" before I'd start plucking at the perceived motes in the eyes of my LDS neighbors. It's called "projection," and I believe you're up to your born-again eyeballs in it.
Sure, Romney may be more qualified and capable than anyone to be a good president; but if he ever got near to the job, opponents would inevitably play vicious and devastatingly effective anti-Mormon cards, and it'd get ugly.
That's why Romney in the primaries gave that "big" speech on religion. He knew what was coming.
Harpy journalists would confront Romney with prophecies and utterances given by the early Mormon prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and pressure him to renounce them – which he couldn't do without renouncing the divine origins of the church.
Besides the divine revelation on polygamy, there are troublesome Smith/Young prophecies on
–race-based church-membership exclusion
–predictions that the U.S. will fall in to crisis and leaders of the Mormon church will take over the government to save it
–early vows for church members to take revenge on the government for allowing Joseph Smith's assassination.
And there's plenty, plenty more, since early Mormons were intent on developing their own stack of scriptures, based largely on modern-day revelations.
Good to know, and I'm glad that it sounds like the scene actually helped with plot and/or characterization and maybe wasn't purely ratings driven. Though I'd like to think the writers could have found another way to do that, if they had really wanted to.
Just a thought…not caring about polygamy one way or the other…
But isn’t it interesting how many people go psycho about the concept of polygamy, but accept with barely a shrug the number of people out there having children out of wedlock with no care or invest in anything even close to resembling ‘family.’ Give me a polygamist family over the endless babymommas and their sperm donors that pop up on Jerry, Tyra, and all those other ridiculous daytime tragedies.
Agree…disagree…who cares. But when it comes down to it, these peoples religious beliefs are their own (and as long as they are ADULTS and not children making the choices) and who is anyone to judge them as wrong?
EVERYONE is a little wacky with their ‘faith’ including ‘fools’ who believe all matter simply existed…that this mythical big bang spawned every planet and star and also every form of evolved animal and plant and also the numerous minerals…what a joke. What a farce. People that ‘believe’ idiotic ideas like that with nothing more than the ‘faith’ in some flawed prophets posing themselves as ’scientists’ with this ever evolving ‘theories’…and we let these idiots vote? We let these idiots hold places in our government?
Oops…sorry…my wife (not plural) reminds me that sarcasm doesn’t translate well…
Urban B…maybe you should have said I have AT LEAST half a brain…not just…well…that you have half a brain.
Chilladelphia baby!
This show is not about Mormons. It has taught me nothing about Mormons, life, relationships, marriage, etc. This is a TV show with very little based in reality and even less so in honesty. This is the equivalent of All My Children having the gay or lesbian storyline and kiss. More reasons to have hype about salacious sex on TV. They get their media hype, the viewers tune in, they get picked up for another year, the writers come up with some plots and twists, the soap opera lives on. Voila! But this show is not about Mormons. Why are all of the BL discussions crouched around this? The ying and the yang of religion.
Who cares if the world is ready or not for an LDS president. The real question, is there an LDS ready to be president! Which reminds me of all the parsing not done about a black man who is not African-American, did not experience street cred growing up but private high schools and ivy league colleges, identifies most with his African father who abandoned him over his white relatives who raised and loved him, believes community activism was his stepping stone to elected office to change the American system to socialism, and can find no church to fill his soul after the 20 years of listening to antisemitism and hate for Amerikkka. Is it still possible to call him African-American?
P.S. The acting is very good.
When I was in Utah in the mid 80's, the big scandal was the salamander letters. Some guy (whose name escapes) forged some key documents and tried to sell them to the churrch. When the deal unraveled, he started blowing up church elders in their driveways. BIg Love includes a major plot line about a so called letter that is the key to the polygamists legitimacy, while Roman confessed that Alby forged the letter. The parallels are interesting. IMO, I hope that people understand that this is TV drama, and while the backdrop reflects generally on the old FLDS precepts. the price Bill pays for his practice, surely would make anyone think twice.
I once heard Dennis Prager say that what motivates the left is nihilism. They don't hold anything sacred so therefore no one else should either. So they destroy the Boy Scouts, traditional families, Catholic Hospitals that refuse to perform abortions, memorials with crosses, public parks with the Ten Commandments, etc. etc.
Broadcasting temple ceremonies is just another example of this. If it is important and personal to us, then by all means lets reduce it down to crass entertainment.
The entire episode didn't surprise me, but it did make me sad.
I am a Mormon convert and I have to say that I've read several misstatements about the religion in these comments. To Joni, I don't know anyone who believes or acts like you describe as fruitcake. And, I don't know what the commenter was talking about when she says Mormons "changed" the Bible. When I joined, it was King James version all the way.
Like several others, everyone I know was a Palin supporter and loved her.
As to the show, I do not have HBO, so I can't comment. I'll take the word of the author of the post that the acting is terrific. My concern is the same as several others that although the show itself might make it clear that the polygamy is outside the real LDS church, it is obvious that others don't process it that way.
To the charge that Mormons aren't Christians, I say go Google "Articles of Faith" and find out what the 13 basic tenets of the LDS church actually are rather than take the word of so-called born again Christians. Talk about a group who can be vicious.
A look at Mitt Romney's life, his family, what he does when the cameras are off for his community and individuals who need a helping hand should be what determines the type of man he is. To dismiss him based on his religion is ignorant and unAmerican, especially when much of his goodness he learned from that religion. As a whole, and I speak as one who came late to the church after growing up in a Mainline Protestant church and then seeking for many years, members of the LDS church are the kindest and most self-sacrificing group I've ever been around and they can be a whole lot of fun too. Heck, when I broke my leg and could not drive due to a full leg cast, the Relief Society (women's church group) arranged to have someone pick me up at home every morning and drive me 19 miles to work and then someone waiting for me at 5:00 to take me back home again. When I was in the hospital and then home post-op, they brought meals in everyday for my family, so my husband didn't have to cook a thing while I was laid up. They do not believe in the public dole, so instead they have established large distribution centers where those in need can get food/clothing and even short term money.
As to polygamy itself, I can't speak for Joseph Smith, but one of the reasons it was continued under Brigham Young (aside from the fact they thought it divinely ordained) was a practical one. There were many fewer men that made it to Utah (remember most came using pushcarts across the Great Plains) than women and these women needed protection. A man could not take more wives than he could prove to the Elders he could support. Widows needed husbands/fathers, single women needed husbands, the community as a whole needed a healthy birth rate, so there were reasons other than an old man's lust. And Mormons were the first to give women the vote decades before the rest of the country.
Mr. Thalberg, let me make a historical point:
Joseph Smith was dead when the the LDS church adopted polygamy. The practice was adopted while the church was under the leadership of Brigham Young after they had made the trek to Utah. The LDS church dropped the practice when it became an issue with statehood. Further, Joseph Smith was the founder and driving force behind the church when he was alive. He was not drawn into anything.
Full disclosure: I was raised in the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Laterday Saints (now called the Community of Christ). This church was formed by Joseph Smith III, Joseph Smith's son, about 30 years after his father's death. There were a lot Mormons that did not go to Utah and many of these factions were brought together by his son. I no longer practice in this church though I attend it when I'm home visiting my Mom.
Ironically, if Mormons are concerned about being viewed in a more favorable light by the broader population, the first thing that leaps to my mind is that they ought to STOP always appearing so "flippin' " happy and pleasant all the damn time. It makes people suspicious
You're the man. I need to heer more over a drink.
And we females are wired to prefer young, strong, healthy males. That's why we marry rich old guys and let the hotties actually father the children. You can't fight Nature, you whiny, strident masculinists!
See how annoying your poorly informed D'ohrwinism is?
I have to concede to you on Alby's first wife. Plays a little camp, but it must be tough..that whole side of the cast is a little psychadelic.
At the risk of getting a thumbs down (what is up with that?), I agree.
If anything, the show has given me a much better perspective on Mormons and their splinter groups. The number one thing I have taken from it is that to all of them, family is very, very important.
Andrew, I agree with your assessment of the underlying theme of the show. I like to watch the show through Barb's eyes. The compound/Sopranos side of it leaves me a little weak, but the family in hiding within the suburbs , Barb shunned by her own family, the teenage daughter who wants out when out is only a step away – I find compelling emotional drama within it all.
Jackie, I'm guessing you represent a lot of LDS members who face this kind of soft prejudice, where people may not discriminate against you, but they assume things about your beliefs you cannot control. Coming on the heels of the Jeffs affair, the show can't be helping on the front of putting discussion of polygamy behind everyone. Hey, all I knew growing up was the Osmonds looked really happy, and my other was always saying 'look what a great family they have.' Looked pretty positive to me, on mom, lots of happy kids with awesome teeth!
I grew up Catholic but never really practiced much, and not religious now. However, I believe any religion that preaches family values is worthy of my respect. I watch the show because it's well written and acted, not because of the religious angle. I also watch knowing who the wriers and producers are, and expect that there will be some lines crossed, whether to be more true or mean spirited. It's also a drama so some extremists characters are to be expected.
As for Mitt Romney, he was my choice going in last election. He will likely be my choice in the next, unless he chooses not to run or a better candidate emerges.
Not if you teach your kids YOUR values. Even the Nazi movement is still thriving today, and there isn't a TV show to teach you about it on HBO; not yet anyways.
Wow, I did not know that one could make such wide sweeping generalizations about marriage. Crazy ideas to me. I know MANY men who are married because they love their wives, not because of some pretense that they are protecting them from being an outcast.
As far as Joseph Smith, if you took the time to really learn who he was, you would realize that you are way off on your assessment of him.
Oh, in full disclosure, I am convert to the LDS Church, and have spent many years seeking to know and understand Joseph Smith.
*…now donning the Nomex and Kevlar fire suit…*
One of the greatest things I appreciate about being a Lutheran is how strongly we take heed to the warning about false prophets. No "divine writings" after the Bible are recognized, anything to get argued about needs referenced to it, if it doesn't jive with the Bible it doesn't fly. Thus there's a decidedly dim view to start of religions using "additional scripture" like the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons.
Feel free to say how decent and respectful Mormons are, I'll just note how often I've heard that description applied to those found out to be mass murderers and give it its due worth. There were many great "pillars of the community" among the Nazis.
People should indeed read up about Mormonism. Here's a well-researched piece I found that's quite informative, http://www.cultdeadcow.com/cDc_files/cDc-0275.php is a good read. I know there are lots who say how we should not judge Mormons based on the extreme elements, who Mormons don't consider "real" Mormons. While you contemplate substituting "Muslims" for "Mormons" in the previous sentence, consider it's only fair since Joseph Smith wanted to be a "second Mohammed."
Enjoy.
I was the music editor (and then some) on the first season of the show (and cut that version of "God Only Knows" that still runs
in fact it was from my rare outtakes Beach Boy CD collection!) and felt that the producers brought up interesting takes on controversial subjects and were very fair about it. I really felt (at least in the first season) that they let the viewer decide issues.
Gay marriage was compared to plural marriage but I felt fairly and in a thought provoking way.
I liked working on it, as I thought it really pushed the TV envelope. I don't know if LDS should be angry at the show, but as a Catholic, my christian sensibilities were never trampled upon.
Please, women treat women as second class citizens; it's the Queen Bee problem which is far more disgusting than whatever religion.
Take a look at what the majority of females did to both Palin and Clinton; they crucified one women who was strong enough not to abort her child and threw the other women to the side of the road so they could slobber all over the celebrity man who offered to bail them out of all their miserable problems.
Women are loving? I call BS; Queen Bee b*tches are not loving.
You did that?! Great! That song was so perfect for the opening (and the show)!! Great call man!
Along with the Sopranos them (Alabama3), this was my favorite opening song on an HBO series.
Remember that these are not Mormons.
Pleeeeeeeeease do not watch anything on HBO, anyway.
Being Beach Boys fan since almost birth, and a collector of rare outtakes and such, I enjoyed being able to cut the "stereo" version of the song. (It was only released in mono originally.) I addded some reverb and cross fading and doubling tricks also in the fade. Only got credit in the first season and have requested credit going forward since they still use the cut. ..We'll see.
I look forward to it, although I am in NY for a while now. But heck they got bars here too!
Oh my heck is another favorite
No one has the legal authority to marry a person to a second or third spouse. So these plural marriages are not legally recognized. As far as the law is concerned, polygamy can't exist.
That is why when they go after polygamists, they have to get them on other crimes.
So when it comes down to it, the discussion is about living arrangements. Much discussion is had about these sort of circumstances, and the pro-sam sex marriage folks might jump on this, But, even with this show, marriage is what it is. One man and one woman. The plural marriages do not get legal recognition, or all the benefits that regular marriages do. The gay marriage folks are in the same boat.
Any religious leader can do what he wants with their ceremonies, but it won't be recognized by the state.
Yeah? Well, I'm LDS and I was NOT a Romney supporter. (He reminded me too much of Bush-lite. He tries too much to "get along" and is not conservative enough for me. I would vote for him if he were the nominee, but never in a primary if I had a more conservative choice.)
And I LOVED Sarah. She was screwed by McCain's people as well as the media. The only people I saw give her a fair chance were conservatives and Hillary's PUMA people.
Your reality GwynsMom is SO NOT MINE.
Or maybe you should look at lds.org and mormon.org, because it's usually best to learn about something from the source. I'm just sayin'…
All I will say is this: people who follow the LDS faith may follow a different path than mine, but they are people who have integrated themselves into the fabric of American society to an admirable degree. They follow their religion and by and large do not demand that the rest of us give them special privileges or rights or protections simply because they believe what they believe. They make good neighbors.
As for Romney, when it came down to Romney and McCain, I voted for Romney. I don't believe that a person's religion is a valid litmus test that should disqualify a candidate completely for my consideration. However, I distrusted Romney becuase of his health care plan in Massachusetts and would prefer not have a similar plan enacted nationwide unless it was part of a wider reform effort.
It takes some faith to believe in the Big Bang theory, though those who believe in it don't believe in faith. Something surely created the first set of Matter and Anti-Matter to cross paths and blew up.
But, we are happy.
It seems that people are "outraged" or "uncomfortable" with the idea of polygamy- so I ask "what's the difference between polygamy and adultery? Chronic cheating? Men with several girlfriends? Hugh Hefner?" I would never accept polygamy, but I daresay that the idea of polygamy is publically abhorrent while the practice of infidelity is often admired and assumed! I don't watch Big Love, and I have been told the acting's great and the families in the show are weirdly "wholesome." YFI and FLDS are nutty creepos who should go to jail, but so are men who have babies with different women that they don't marry or support or a woman with 6 children from 4 or so different men often "raising" the illegitimate children on welfare.
If people are watching "Big Love" and they don't realize the Hendricksons are not LDS, then they really aren't watching the show. It has been made abundantly clear that the LDS does not want anything to do with them. Most of the third season was dedicated to this fact.
That would be like saying someone watched the Sopranos and didn't realize that being in the mob was illegal.
I said this in another post, but think it needs repeating:
It really seems it comes down to how people view the beliefs of Mormons. Since no one other than a Mormon can understand how anyone can believe the way they do, it becomes almost an obligation (again from both sides of politics) to condemn the relgion. Oh, the people are nice. What they believe, however, is horrible. They believe in Angels, Miracles, Prophets, and Holy Scriptures written by the Power of God. Wow! How could they? Not only that, but they believe in things that I and my nieghbors don't. That is unforgivable! We all know that Joseph Smith is a fraud. Can't say that Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Paul, and the founders of Hinduism are frauds because, well, they aren't. We have scientific proof and thousands of years to back them up. They hold nothing like the belief that Jesus could visit and have a following in the Americas. How insane! And, to top it all off, they believe they can become a god with their own world. The belief in reincarnation until you become one with the universe is much more logical.
My point is that Mormons are easy to target becaue they are the "whipping boy" of everyone. It is strange to watch (not exactly here, even if there is a taste of it) anti-religionists attack Mormons and pro-religionists cheering them on. As I have said in other places, the only difference between arguments against Mormons is someone might quote the Bible.
Note to Kadaka, how do you know the Bible is true? Oh yea, it has some archeological and historical proofs. So does Homer's Odyssey and Illiad.
No, you're not. You're wired to prefer 'successful' mates. Healthy, well fed–and older than you. Older means they've shown that they can survive.
Young males are actaully less preferred than older ones–save for older women. And older woman will grab a young, unattached and inexperienced male in the hope that his virility will adequately offset her waning fertility.
I agree Jude. I think Barb is the most emotionally interesting character because she's the one who is trapped between the two worlds. I think she's never liked the idea of multiple wives, but she loves Bill enough to put up with it, even though she's paying a huge price for it — the family, the daughter, the embarrassment with being stripped of the award in the second (?) season. And now Bill keeps spinning more and more out of control. That makes for some fascinating viewing. Not to mention that Tripplehorn is a great actress for this role.
I am a Christian, Southern Baptist, and I never heard an ill word about Palin from anyone in my church groups, neighborhood, or around town. There were tons of signs, bumperstickers, and when she came to speak in GA, there were loads of Christians there. Romney was very well liked in my neck of the woods, also. The Christians I know never had a problem with him being LDS. I don't know who all these cross groups that didn't like Palin or Romney because of their religion, but I honestly didn't see any of them. Just on the blogs, but not in the real world. I tried watching Big Love when it first came on, I made it through about 5 episodes, but I frankly couldn't get into it. It may be good, but I just found it unappealing, and boring.
That's interesting because I knew it sounded different than the version I have (just have the regular cd version), but never knew why.
By the way, my sister and I serious spent time when the show first came out talking about how perfectly that song worked with the show! I'm glad to be able to tell the guy who picked it, nice work!
"The characters in Big Love are not Mormon"
This always strikes me as humorous. The part of the church who accepted the violation of the First Amendment that forced the LDS to give up polygamy refers to the part of the church who did not let politics distort doctrine as 'not LDS'.
I am not Mormon. I love Big Love. My best friend growing up was Mormon, so I definitely have some thoughts about the show and its portrayal of Mormons.
I spent more time at her house than my own and loved and was loved by her family more than words can say. My mother was single and her job took her out of town a lot of the time, and they took me in so naturally it never dawned on me until later in life how remarkable their care and concern for me truly was. I spent a lot of time at their church activities and sometimes attended church with them and while some of the things I heard seemed a little strange, I have never encountered a community of people who care for each other more than the Mormons do. I ended up having quite a few Mormon friends in high school for this reason, and to this day they are some of the finest people I have ever met. That being said, I tend to have a problem with organized religion, but have respect for those who choose to practice it.
My only real beef with the show is how the "actual" Mormons on the show are portrayed. I often wonder who is consulting on the show because the way the Mormons on the show "talk" (I'm referring to their vernacular) seems completely foreign to me as someone who has probably logged thousands of hours with and around Mormons. I have never heard Mormons talk the way so many of the Mormons on the show talk. And in talking to my friend about the temple scene, she explained to me why what Barb did could have never happened (apparently when you go to the temple the first time you have to have special paperwork done so you could never borrow someone else's ID and get in to take part in that particular ceremony). I'm sure they take license for creative purposes, but all of the Mormons I have ever known seem more "real" and more normal than they appear on the show. Granted I grew up in Southern California and not in Utah, but a lot of my Mormon friends now live in Utah and having visited them there I don't see the cultural differences as that much different.
It's for these reasons I tend to take everything that happens with a grain of salt, and even though I love the show (Jeanne Tripplehorn deserves a slew of awards for her portrayal of Barb), I have to say if I were a Mormon I would not be thrilled – I can't believe who says it's helping them more than it hurts.
I believe Mohammed came up with a solution to such sentiments. No doubt the occasional stoning would do wonders to restore a sense of propriety to our damaged and failing culture. To bad about the kids though; it's a terrible thing when the local silver-back feels the need to smash in the heads of his competitor's progeny. I guess it's a good thing for America's women that there are still enough "whiny masculinists" (sic) out there who are stupid enough to pay taxes or volunteer for military and police service in the defense of female dignity. For now.
OSweet you have some interesting points but you need some clarification on your possible arguing points of the media.
1) Race based membership exclusion. You are half right. Up until early 1980s blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood in the LDS church. They could however be members of the church. As a member this idea always bothered me. I dont know that I will ever understand the idea of it but there is certainly scriptural precedent for exclusion with the priesthood among other things. Old testament time, after Jacob was renamed Israel (having had 12 sons with four different wives, God informed them that only one tribe's males (out of 12 tribes) were allowed to have the priesthood. Only the tribe of Levi held the priesthood. So not only would blacks then not have an option for the priesthood but none of the males from any of the other eleven tribes could hold the priesthood.
Christ (new testament time) taught that his initial mission (while alive) was limited to the gathering of the 12 tribes. A non 12 tribe female asked him for a blessing. He pointed out that his mission was limited to the "house of Israel" initially refusing to bless her. She pointed out that even the dogs were allowed to eat the crumbs from the masters table, so he gave in, called her wise, and gave her a blessing. This exclusionary practice coming from Jesus himself sounds pretty harsh, doesnt it?
2) Your claim of the LDS leaders taking over the US government. Many LDS were taught that there was a prophecy that the US Constitution would hang by a thread (sounds like today huh?) and that "The Elders Of Israel" would protect it. This does not state that church leaders would take over the nation. It simply states that the US Constitution would be defended and saved by "The Elders of Israel". This prophecy does not even limit the saving of the US Constitution to members of the LDS faith.
3) Vows to revenge on the government? No idea what you are talking about here. Of course lots of individuals that were pursued by locals and government officials would not be too pleased by their actions against a religion. So there would have been some dislike for the current government back then.
Joni is typical of Mormon bashers. Especially when they claim they used to belong to the LDS religion. The first hint of a problem is when they get all the doctrinal points either backwards or just fractionally correct, at best. These people also tend to have a great deal of personal anger within them. So obviously they will have axes to grind. Joni, no need to apologize for saying something true. Because so far, you have not said much that is true.
I am not a Mormon, but I have several friends and co-workers who are, and they are all just decent, hard working, family-oriented people, just like most other Christians. I was frankly shocked by the anti-Mormonism displayed during the Mitt Romney campaign, and especially shocked because a lot of it came from right-wing Christians.
Now I admit I love the HBO show, "Big Love." Great acting, great writing, and thought-provoking. The first thing that struck me as I started watching the show was that having three beautiful wives is not heaven, as one would fantacize. It is pure hell! The pressure to financially suppport all those people is tremendous, and even the pressure to perform in the bedroom would probably remove years from one's life! cont'd
I do not see Big Love as anti-Mormon church, although I could see why Mormons might. Personally, I think multiple marriages creates a very unstable society (see the Middle East!), and for that reason alone it is not a good thing. Allowing people to live their lives as they wish vs. the overall good of society is at the very core of the serious issues we have today here in the USA. I look forward to the day that Mormons can watch a show like "Big Love" and not worry about it causing more anger, distrust and hatered directed at them. Martin Luther King had a dream about that, I believe, judging a person by the content of their character rather than by skin color, and in this case, religion…
I have to assume that your ability to learn from observation is not very good. That Palin line you took was so far-fetched and opposite of the truth that I had to wonder if that is how you learn on other subjects as well. Mormons were HUGE HUGE HUGE fans of Sarah Palin for the most part. Those that were not happened to be democrats and voted for Obama.
As to additional scriptures, I guess you can take the idea that scriptures were supposed to be temporary in nature and were cut off at some magical point in time. But that idea is not overly logical. Jews could say the same about the entire new testament. That it must not be real because it is considered new scriptures to them.
As for female politicians that are mormon, there are quite a few, especially at state levels in quite a few states.
Anyway, keep your eyes wide shut and you will be sure to have more words of wisdoms for us all.
I am sorry, but your historical point is incorrect. Even the RLDS Church (now Community of Christ) has come to recognize that Joseph Smith himself did practice polygamy. His wife Emma was quite opposed to the idea though. As a practicing member of the LDS Church, I recognize the fact that he did. It is actually a well documented fact, but most RLDS scholars had a hard time recognizing it until the late '80s and early '90s. Also, Joseph Smith III officially took control of the RLDS Church in 1860, 16 years after his father's death.
Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. The sister of one of my ancestors was his first polygamous wife, and she died before the expulsion from Nauvoo. All of my ancestors in two generations were polygamists, yet I would not like to have it return.
Just a couple of thoughts – take the most important and sacred element of your life, then imagine it being distorted by someone who has no ability to relate. Then, imagine having it plastered on television to an uninformed/misinformed public, thereby shaping the opinion of many. I guess that's art??? As for the effect on Mitt, I don't anticipate it making that great of a difference. Those folks who are anti-LDS won't vote for him, regardless of Big Love. More important to the debate, at least contemporarily, is the Prop 8 debate. This issue will still be alive in 4 years and you can bet the LDS church will still be on the frontlines. Here are a couple of interesting articles on the topic – Winning By Losing on Prop 8, Vermont to Legalize Gay Marriage, http://www.politicalpopcorn.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=329:prop-8-supporters-filing-suit-after-being-harassed&catid=1:all-news ” target=”_blank”>Prop 8 Supporters Filing Suit After Being Harassed
I am not advocating plural marriage but I think you are being a bit simplistic to assume that the Middle East is unstable because of plural marriage. I dont know how true this is but I read just last week that during the written history of the world plural marriage was more common than monogamous marriage. And obviously just sleeping around without the benefit of any marriage is also extremely commonplace.
I am a member of the LDS religion and keep an open mind about plural marriage, even though I lean very heavily towards the idea that I dont quite understand an eternal purpose to it.
If the LDS religion is correct on life after death and eternal families the only possible reason I could see for plural marriage in the hereafter would be to have some mixing up of the gene pool. Of course, any guess at a purpose would be pure speculation.
I also believe that because plural marriage is generally forced underground in the USA (because it is illegal) would in and of itself make how successful it might be hard to tell. The real test (again I do not advocate plural marriage) would be to have open and legal plural marriage. But I see lots of cans of worms there especially since the government has decided to take the peoples tax money then redistribute it based on the governments current whims.
Agree with you; there were plenty of practical reasons for Western settlers to practice polygamy besides the lurid reasons most think of today. I did research on this a while back, and if I remember correctly at that time women were not allowed to own property. So you have all these women, a bunch of them older or widows, trying to settle in a desert and build a homestead when they technically can't own the land they are living on. A lot of them received basic rights and protections for themselves and their families by entering polygamous marriages with devout, responsible church leaders that they would have otherwise been without. Plenty of the marriages were non-sexual; their husbands just checked on them from time to time to make sure they were okay, and they lived their own lives. But it gave them someone in authority who was personally responsible for their well-being and that of their children. I'm not saying this is the ideal marriage by any means or that this condones the abysmal polygamous practices of today, I'm just pointing out the reality of the time.
I read somewhere about Mark Twain's description of Mormon women as these sad, cloistered little women trapped by their faith, but a lot of the stories I found told a completely different story. The church sent women back east to get education; some of the first surgeons in the West were Mormon women, if you can believe it. They were active, vibrant members of their communities. Research Eliza R. Snow and all the things she did as one of Brigham Young's wives; she was amazing.
The easiest flaw in your logic is that there is no scriptural evidence that states that divine writings were to cease at the end of the new testament. If you knew your history on the new testament you would understand that it came from multiple authors and not a one of them stated that there would be no future divine writing. Those that teach that idea are using not very sound logically. If the battle were between the angry anti-mormons here (like you and joni) and the mormons here, I say the mormons here sound more logical and more friendly and frankly, sound like nicer people to be around. Of course I am prejudiced since I have been a member since my early 20ties.
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