Watch Out For ‘Watchmen’
by Jonah GoldbergLast summer, Joss Whedon (yes, he’s my master now), caused a minor sensation with his Dr. Horrible’s Sing Along Blog. One of the reasons the musical comedy about a would-be super-villain’s miserable love life was so successful — other than Whedon’s pact with Satan whereby he traded his soul, his mint condition Giant Size X-Men # 1 and a lifetime supply of HoHos in exchange for mystical word-talent – was that Whedon was standing on the shoulders of Alan Moore, the author of the landmark comic book Watchmen. More than anyone else, Moore is credited with “deconstructing” the comic book super-hero, and he probably deserves that credit. Though like with all great artistic innovators, Moore had his influences in this regard. Every artist has in his background a mob of ghostly helpers bigger than the crowd of phone technicians in that Sprint Verizon commercial. For instance, Marvel Comics (where my first loyalties lie, for the record) had already broken considerable ground in humanizing its heroes long before Moore started writing. Peter Parker, after all, was a terrible dork.
Nonetheless, Moore took the genre to grand new vistas in psychology, political commentary and literature (see, for a mere taste, Eve Tushnet’s sprawling essay comparing it to Shakespeare’s Measure For Measure [link for Tushnet's essay requires you scroll down a bit to Friday, January 23rd at 12:02am -- Ed]). Watchmen is a brilliant accomplishment and deserves the bulk of its sometimes gob-smackingly good press. Though I’ll leave it to others to debate whether it belongs on Time magazine’s list of the 100 best novels since 1923 (the only graphic novel on the list). But the man’s influence on comics and Hollywood has been enormous, if not necessarily obvious to folks who don’t know who he is or only know him from the movie adaptations of V for Vendetta or From Hell. Whedon’s own Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel can easily be seen as Moore’s grandchildren.
This March, after decades of typical Hollywood rigmarole and creative argy-bargy, the film adaptation of Watchmen is finally going to hit screens and Watchmen-mania is running its course like a particular bad case of fanboy (and fangirl) St. Vitus’ Dance. I’m very excited to see it myself. But lots of people, starting with Moore himself, simply don’t believe Watchmen will work as a movie. My fingers are crossed, but I think they have the better part of the argument.
Regardless, if for no other reason than this is a new blog at the intersection of politics and Hollywood, there’s one thing that should at least be pointed out: Much of the political vision of Watchmen – and Watchmen was a deeply political piece of work – is horribly outdated today and was, in the grand scheme of things, just plain wrong when it came out. Moore intended the book to be at least in part a biting indictment of Reagan and Thatcher and the Cold War in general. He saw the book as explicitly anti-Reagan, if not necessarily anti-American (Reagan doesn’t actually appear in Watchmen).
This exposes one of the problems with Moore’s political vision: he seems to think the Cold War was a purely Reaganite phenomena that descended on America like a dark curtain thanks in part to the death of JFK. In Moore’s alternative universe Richard Nixon, a stand-in for Reagan, is serving out his fifth term as president. The title “Watchmen” is an allusion to a real JFK speech – “We are the watchmen of freedom” – that was never delivered because of the assassination, which in Moore’s alternate reality was probably masterminded by Nixon. It’s never said outright, but it’s strongly suggested that everything went wrong geopolitically after that. For example, JFK apparently wouldn’t have approved the use of superheroes in Vietnam (superheroes being something of a stand-in for nuclear weapons in this case. It’s complicated.).
But this is nonsense. Kennedy was an outright Cold War hawk who ran to Nixon’s right in 1960 on such issues as the “missile gap.” While Nixon certainly had very solid anti-Communist credentials, when he actually became president, Nixon ended the Vietnam War, recognized Communist China and ushered in an era of détente with the Soviets.
But that’s a nitpick about what may be a defensible thematic device. The real problem with Moore’s anti-Reaganite vision is that it places the blame for the omnipresent climate of fear on Reagan himself. (Apparently, Moore was unaware of, say, the Kennedy-era “duck-and-cover” ads). In the 1980s the greatest fear-mongering could be found not in Reagan’s “Morning in America” themes but in left-wing critiques like Moore’s. Films like the British “Threads“ or the watered-down American made-for-TV movie “The Day After,” were far more relentless in scaring the hell out of people than anything Reagan ever said or did. This was the deliberate tactic of the SANE Freeze crowd in and out of Hollywood, which thought it was their duty to make Americans more scared of their own government than they were of the Soviets. And the miasma of conspiratorial phobias that hangs over Watchmen’s universe is one that suggests Western governments were not only to blame for Cold War tensions, but that Western governments were actually the real villains.
This is not to say that Moore’s vision is cartoonish or even comic-bookish. It is deadly serious and he leaves many things open to diverse interpretations. Indeed, the greatest villain of the book is an idealistic, liberal-leaning, megalomaniac. But the existential angst and moral nihilism that serves as the spine of the book isn’t a product of Reaganism, but of the left’s ill-advised, ahistoric, and self-indulgent response to Reaganism. And, oh yeah: let the word go forth that Reagan’s vision proved correct barely a few years after Watchmen’s release. Meanwhile, Moore’s political vision – in part because it was so wrong – seems like 80’s kitsch today, which may be one of the reasons so many people believe the book is untranslatable to the big screen. Again, I hope the naysayers are wrong about that. I also hope the producers don’t try to cram the story into today’s left-wing critiques of the war on terror either which would, in a stroke, prove the naysayers right.





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The Cold War was largely contrived. Read “None Dare Call it Treason” – it is a real eye-opener. The US was sustaining the Soviet Union so we could keep them around as a boogeymen and feed the military-industrial complex.
Jonah, I first became a fan of yours after reading your article about Joss Whedon’s “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” in which you stated that, despite Whedon’s liberal leanings, the show can be interpreted as embodying conservative values. And as someone else pointed out on this site on another thread, Whedon’s show “Firefly” has a fairly libertarian viewpoint.
umm… the giant crowd is in a verizon, not sprint commercial.
Doug.. you should read Thomas Hibbs’ book “Arts of Darkness”. He gives a great look at Buffy and Angel’s neo-noir atmosphere and also how they are redemptive.
Hi there,
I looked over your blog and it looks really good. Do you ever do link exchanges on your blog roll? If you do, I’d like to exchange links with you.
Let me know if you’re interested.
Thanks..
Floyd, thanks for the tip. I’ll check it out. One of the things I like about Whedon is, even though he calls himself an atheist, he admits that religious concepts like Heaven and Hell and redemption are too compelling for his storytelling instincts to ignore.
Jonah, I agree with you and have been saying pretty much the same thing about “Watchmen” and “V for Vendetta” for awhile now. When those comics came out just about everyone acknowledged that Moore was alarmist, but he also turned out to be flat-out wrong on the politics. I still love Watchmen–it’s an amazingly creative and entertaining comic. I also give Moore credit for making The Comedian and Rorschach much more sympathetic than one would expect from such an ideologically focused, leftist writer. In no way do I think that this treatment of those characters was accidental, but at the same time I get a bit of joy from imagining Moore’s discomfiture over Rorschach’s status as Watchmen’s most popular character.
Jonah, I first became a fan of yours after reading your article about Joss Whedon’s “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” in which you stated that, despite Whedon’s liberal leanings, the show can be interpreted as embodying conservative values. And as someone else pointed out on this site on another thread, Whedon’s show “Firefly” has a fairly libertarian viewpoint.
I’ve heard this repeated before, that despite Whedon’s own personal views, his work shows something of a sympathy toward religious and conservative values (the character of Shepard Book, for example).
It’s my understanding the release of Watchmen is still in legal limbo:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-watchman7-2009jan07,0,6634050.story
I liked the graphic novel, but do not love all things Moore (hate V.)
But I agree about the worthiness of all thing Whedon (looking forward to Dollhouse on Fox) and even more on all thing Goldberg (great to see you at the Big Hollywood, Jonah.)
Yeah Moores political concepts were flawed and to be fare to him, probably the ideas about what was actually going on when Kennedy was present were probably not talked about all that much. The closer to the mans assassination I feel the more reverence people had for him. Moore to me has always been a political reactionary artist (and by art I mean his writing). His first concern is and has always been if someone was going to get the power to silence him
That being said, this and the Dark Knight Returns was definitely a change for DC comics. It led to a huge change in the medium at large, and as a kid this was a change for the better.
Interesting now, however, that the pendulum has shifted. The dark road that we have been traveling along in comic books is just so tired as of late, that we’ve been seeing the storytelling of comic books trying to bring itself back to some sort of “positive” posture (take 52 or instance). Though it’s hard to right that ship now that it’s gone down the “realism” river.
Terry, you may want to loosen that tinfoil hat. I think it’s cutting off the circulation of blood to your brain.
DOUG — “And as someone else pointed out on this site on another thread, Whedon’s show “Firefly” has a fairly libertarian viewpoint.”
That may have been me riffing on the movie version SERENITY which I caught again last night.
I did muse that Whedon was probably a flaming liberal (confirmed now), despite Firefly/Serenity being unable to to seen as anything but a conservative take.
I have long thought that there are many more creatives in Hollywood who are essentially “conservative,” they just do not realize it.
But Whedon can do little wrong for me — even when doing an acting cameo in Veronica Mars.
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Great piece.
Obviously, how this goes down depends a lot on how Zack Snyder and his team adapt/interpret the material. Sounds like no one is sure what direction it will take.
Still, while it’s too early to count Zack Snyder one of us, I understand Alan Moore wasn’t exactly keen on the ideal of the guy who did ‘300′ directing this one.
Incidentally, everything you need to know about Alan Moore’s sanity is summed up in his Wikipedia entry…
“He is a vegetarian, an anarchist, a practicing magician and occultist, and he worships a Roman snake-deity named Glycon.”
Enough said?
Snyder gives this film hope. Otherwise, it’s just another V for Vendetta, which was also horrendously out of touch and old, but was “updated” to reflect the leftist zeitgeist. I’m really curious as to how this film is made relevant.
Much of the art of that era, including good, meaningful art such as Watchmen, give me a ‘time capsule’ chuckle nowadays. The artist preens, but gets the cold war politics wrongwrongwrongwrong. These make for great ‘teachable moments’ to remind those who would forget or claim otherwise.
What’s the old french (sorry Jonah) saying from just after WWII? ‘Resistance, post guerre.’ Every frenchmen claimed to have faught rather than collaborate, and now everyone pretends there was an idyllic consensus in the 80s vis-a-vis Reagan’s foreign policy vs.the Soviets. I remember how he led on this issue, over and against the opposition of Tip ONeill, Ted Kennedy, Howard Metzenbaum, and just about every Dem except Scoop Jackson.
I’m not convinced that WATCHMEN or THE DARK NIGHT or the flood of similar “grimmer, grittier, more realistic” comic book titles which appeared in the 80’s was good for the industry. Quite the opposite, actually, as that was the beginning of the long slide of comic book sales. The idea was the “grimmer, darker, badder” would appeal to adult readers and thus enhance the comic book market; what really happened was that everything became grimmer, darker, and badder, and the old cheery, fun, hero vs. villain atmosphere vanished, taking comic books’ appeal to non-adults with it. It should be no surprise the POKEMON and similar Japanese imports captivated American children and adolescents with their fun-loving spirit; the American comic book industry had voluntarily surrendered that ground. Seems that cheery and fun-loving wasn’t adult enough. Nice move, guys.
Now it’s the comic book-based movies that are keeping the comic book industry afloat, not the other way ’round.
Please, no one respond to Terry. He just trolls all the threads. Please.
I really liked The Watchmen, and have read it several times. I think the characters have a lot of depth, and like Jonah says, the arch-villian is a liberal idealist.
I really liked Moore’s portrayal of the right-wing tabloid “The New Frontiersman.” Yea, insane, deluded people, right? Well, they were the only people who published the truth in the end.
Yes, Moore’s understanding of geopolitics is typical liberal silliness, but most of us have learned to filter that stuff out. It simply does not make any sense, once one has examined the reality. But I look at it this way: ‘the noble dissenters of the evil Western government which is waging artificial wars against non-threatening enemies in order to secure themselves power and money from the military-industrial complex’ is just an artistic trope, a convenient mythology that is more aesthetically pleasing to artistic types than ‘we must defend freedom against the spread of communism,’ which seems to them unsophisticated “war propaganda” and thus must be wrong.
There is no coherent argument there. Thus I find it does not detract substantially from my enjoyment of good art like The Watchmen.
Useless Dissident – January 7th, 2009 at 11:45 am
“Please, no one respond to Terry. He just trolls all the threads. Please.”
No more “trolling” than your comment about the lack of movies portraying the Soviets. WTF is your problem. I was going to praise that post, too.
Moore is a total loon, but there’s no denying that he wrote some great comics, Watchmen among them.
I’m skeptical about the Watchmen movie, but I’m willing to give it a chance. I would guess that a lot of the Cold War-era elements of the original have been dumped, not because Hollywood realized that Moore was totally wrong about the Cold War, but because the studio execs think it’ll be boring to teenagers.
Thanks for warning me, Useless Dissident. Unfortunately, I responded to Terry on another thread.
As for Watchmen, I didn’t find anything appealing about the film when watching the trailer, and now having read this thread, I’m about as inclined to see it as I was inclined to see V For Vendetta (and I’ve never seen that one).
“I did muse that Whedon was probably a flaming liberal (confirmed now), despite Firefly/Serenity being unable to to seen as anything but a conservative take.”
It’s hard to write a good cowboy movie/TV Show (IN SPA-A-A-A-A-CE no less) and show them being lefties/ socialists. Cowboys who cry, whine, and complain about how unfair everything is instead of, you know, Cowboying are hard to write and make interesting enough to draw a crowd. The paying kind anyways.
Morgan – January 7th, 2009 at 11:50 am
“Thanks for warning me, Useless Dissident. Unfortunately, I responded to Terry on another thread.”
You dared think for yourself for a moment, eh? Didn’t that feel good?
“Moore’s political vision – in part because it was so wrong – seems like 80’s kitsch today, which may be one of the reasons so many people believe the book is untranslatable to the big screen”
First I’ve heard of that as a reason. Most fans just thought the mechanics of film couldn’t replicate the art of the book. The poltics of an artform are the least interesting to me. Jonah pretty much ruins nearly every one of his cultural critiques by picking out every minisule politcal microbe he can imagine. I doubt he really enjoys any movie he watches. I mean really enjoy it.
Oh finally, conservatives talking about Watchmen! I’ve been nagging all my friends to read the book and start thinking about the movie. Important ideas.
Not to mention that the trailers are absolutely freakin’ FANTASTIC. Loved Snyder’s work on 300, so I’m definately looking forward to Watchmen.
Mr. Media, on BlogTalkRadio, did a great interview with Watchmen artist Dave Gibbons: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/mrmedia/2008/12/29/Dave-Gibbons-WATCHING-THE-WATCHMEN-comic-book-artist-Mr-Media-Interview
I also talked about it here, http://www.blogtalkradio.com/JoitheArtist/2008/12/13/Who-Watches-the-Watchmen trying to get some of my conservative friends to understand the importance of culture in changing hearts and minds.
Moore is definitely entrenched in the Left, but I found The Watchmen to be a great read. I didn’t appreciate the stabs at Nixon, Vietnam, and The Comedian didn’t sit too well with me. He did, however, also take shots at the Left, and those ridiculous pseudo-intellectual types who are simply cocktail-party liberals.
The villain being some leftist idealist was a great touch. I really liked the book, and can;t wait for the film. Let’s just hope it doesn’t end up sitting a shelf somewhere, but I think some sort of deal will be reached to assure that it opens on time.
DAVID
I agree with you. I stopped reading comics in the 90s because they had become filled with moral relevance, nihilism and heros that seemed to be no better then the villians they fought. Notice most of the big comic book movies show the character (Spiderman, Ironman) closer to his 60s version then the modern one. Alex Ross addressed what had happened to comics in Kingdom Come which is and was great. Too bad he had to come out as another Bush hating wacko. As you noted the comics themselves now just seem to be an excuse to keep the brand in the public eye so you’ll by the shirts and see the movie. Comics have fallen into the same trap as Hollywood, they don’t get that people want to see a hero fight for a just cause and win but they’ve become to wrapped up in their liberal post-modern bs to see this.
Regardless of politics, the requirements of drama tend to reinforce certain ideas. Victims make for good stories, which reinforces the (unfortunate) cult of victimology in our society, with everybody competing for the most sympathy.
At the same time, violence and action make for good stories. This is one reason why action movies and scifi movies, even when made by liberals trying to preach left wing ideology, end up seeming kind of right wing. The good guy punching out the bad guy is great drama … but it also reinforces the fact that good men must defend themselves and use force to overcome evil. Talking and negotiation make poor stories.
Alan Moore is British, and like many Europeans, he doesn’t understand that “right-wing” in the USA is classical liberalism, and not the same as fascism, national socialism or monarchism. As described in Jonah’s book, Moore confuses classical liberalism with fascism.
Moore’s bigotry against Christians is comical and cliched with the portrayal of Rorschach. Fun fact about Rorschach…based on The Question and Mr. A characters created by Steve Ditko, which in turn are based on Ayn Rand and Objectivism.
As much as Moore tried to make Rorschach look like the tragic, wingnut, morally-certain Bible-thumper, Rorschach is still by far the most popular character.
I would guess than 99% of the appeal for most people is Rorschach.
Reading Watchmen in the spring of 08, I could definitely see the left-wing critiques and the relatively minor flaws that in any other work would be major flaws.
In truth, they are major flaws but Moore’s ability to pull you into this world trumps them. So, one is still shocked at the ending, even if political logic renders much of it implausible, even within that world.
I may be wrong in my recollection, but it would seem that if America had a Dr. Manhattan and he could just win in Vietnam all by himself, what was there to stop him from just wiping out the Soviet and Chinese nukes?
And if this was possible, why would a nation keep electing Nixon? Presumably, the world would be at peace–no cold war–so why would Americans keep electing the Cold Warrior?
Even the Brits kicked Churchill out after WWII.
In our present time, it’s arguable that a relatively peaceful Iraq helped Obama become our next president.
And the end of the Cold War helped in getting Clinton elected.
It would also seem that if the Cold War continued as a matter of political expediency–keep the electorate afraid so that the keep voting for Nixon–it would certainly be plausible for a competitor to ask what the hell is Nixon doing keeping the Cold War going with a Dr. Manhattan in reserve.
I suppose that would be similar to JFK’s missile gap theme.
The end of the Cold War would render the ending moot and the Doomsday Clock would probably be at 1:00.
Still, taken on its own terms, the book is quite compelling.
It is still a great book.
Watchmen has such a reputation, that when I heard it was being made into a movie, I went out and bought the book to read so if the movie version was a bastardization, I would not have the original ruined for me.
And yes, it blew my socks off, leftist political slant and all.
I just wonder how they’re going to be able to fit that much plot and character development into a two hour-something time frame.
And then if they try to make it ‘relevant’ by changing the plot any…
But all Republican presidents (Bush, Reagan, Nixon) are interchangable boogeymen for the left, so maybe they’ll leave alone and let liberals pretend that Nixon = Bush.
I’m fairly certain The Dark Knight movie was a love letter to the right wing that their ways of fighting terror are correct
Problem with Watchmen is that the most right wing allegory is the Comedian (aka Peacemaker from Charlton) who is a vile human being…while other male characters exemplify the “do whatever it takes” mantra of the right while espousing liberal views (Rorschach, Ozymandias, the very Ayn-Randian Dr. Manhattan) and the two could get confused.
I’m positive most left wingers will think Adrian Veidt, the corporate mogul is a hard right winger, and the “conspiracy nuts” will liken his plan from everything to Bush and 9/11 to Bush and Iraq.
Nite Owl, the “hero” is also very liberal, ends up getting the girl and sort of being the only redeeming one.
This is just the latest left-wing Hollywood movie. This view of the West has been going on since the 1960’s, nothing new here. Look at X-Files, Enemy of the State, countless others depicting the US as evil. Re-write history to fit your world view. It’s in the psyche and it’s damned dangerous. Sooner or later it will result in a bloody revolution and then a lot of Hollywood lefties will “leave town”, not wanting to get their hands dirty. Or deny they had anything to do with it. And not just them, MSM types too. That’s the real conspiracy, un-reported I might add.
Can’t believe you’re a Marvel guy though I suppose its the same as being a Battlestar Galactica fan. “Humanizing heroes” is just a fancy way of saying “making them miserable”. Something Moore likes to do too. Visually Watchmen will be fun and exciting but I expect the story to be as dreary and unfulfilling as the book.
Terry, your comments simply affirm why I prefer not to debate or discuss things with lunatics: nothing but a complete waste of time.
Terrible spoilers occur here, so watch out:
Mr. Goldberg, I have to disagree that the leftist character Ozymandias was the villain of Watchmen. I believe he was the (tragic) hero of the story. I won’t try to argue Alan Moore’s original intent, but that’s the way I read the book. Ozymandias’ plot succeeded, even if he didn’t survive the execution of it. At the end, the surviving superheroes decide to let the scheme go forth, with the one exception of Rorschach, who Moore has gone on record as describing as a villainous and despicable character, even if he stopped short of calling him the outright villain of the piece.
I see the book as a chronicle of the wonderful but tragic genius hero who saw the way to save the world, and was the only one willing to do all of the horrible things needed to bring that about — just like all of those poor souls who had and will have to die horribly in order to bring about the glorious communist utopia that will come, if only the superior geniuses of the left are willing to break enough eggs to accomplish it.
My politics differ a hundred percent from that nonsense, but this is how I read the Watchmen story — an impressive but deeply flawed work by an incredible talent.
And as promising as it may turn out to be (I not holding out a lot of hope, but it may surprise us), I think the movie will make a hash of the graphic novel (which is what you folks outside of the funnybook field insist on calling comic books). Still, I’ve seen and was able to play with, for a few minutes, the full-sized Owl Ship prop for the movie, and if nothing else ever comes of it, the movie and all of the money that was spent on it was fully justified just because they made that wonderful toy. Anything beyond that is gravy.
I read Watchmen for the first time a few months ago (after I saw a trailer). I was unimpressed. Rorschach was a caricature of a conservative and I thought that Dr. Manhattan was just too powerful to avoid distorting the story. Couldn’t he just find all the US and Soviet leaders and threaten to kill them all if they didn’t dismantle the nukes? Couldn’t he be put in charge of verifying some sort of non-proliferation treaty? If he was supposed to be so smart, why couldn’t he figure out a way to used his tremendous power to do more than build martian spaceships and eliminate nuclear weapons?
I liked the narrative devices and the shifting points of view. I liked the central concept of “what if superheroes were real?” But I thought the “twist” at the end was hackneyed and the politics absurd.
If anything, Moore’s funhouse-mirror version of Cold War politics makes the book even more powerful when one reads it 20 years later. The villain (Veidt) is willing to commit an incredible atrocity to bring the Cold War to an end before it turns hot . . . but the reader knows the Soviet Union was heading for collapse and so that atrocity is meaningless and unnecessary.
Excited about this site, which is MUCH needed.
If the director and writers got it right, The Watchmen is actually very relevant today. The surface politics of the decade the story is written in play a central part but it’s the examination of the underlying philosophies that DRIVE the politics which is under the microscope here. Watchmen is examination of three distinct world views and philosophies that are very much so colliding with each other right now especially in the U.S. These philosophies are made incarnate into three characters which apply their ideological demands to maddening extremes. The story is about their collision and the consequences
Character 1: Naturalist & Materialist Worldview
Extremely relevant coming from the rhetoric of the “New Atheists” who used 9/11 to springboard their new/old arguments into the public square. Lead primarily by “Scientists” with an occasional philosopher, polemicist and entertainer to boot. The natural world is all there is and given the right amount of time matter organized itself with no purpose blah blah blah
Character 2: Economic and Cultural Marxist/Relativists
Obviously relevant given the current political direction of our country and where the EU has been for a long time combined with the rampant relativism permeating all things media. Including the willful ignorance of a majority of people who are unaware of their tacit agreement with this worldview or its logical long term outcomes.
Character 3: Religious, Moral Absolutists & Deontology
Relevant to the social conservatives and religious peoples who will not bend on matters of freedom of conscious and their belief that a higher power is the provider for the roadmap on how to guide one’s life not a construct of man.
There are other primary characters in Watchmen who are supposed to represent the everyman. They are either spectators or hesitantly taken along for the ride. Keep in mind that the three characters mentioned above are extreme examples of these ideologies in practice, so extreme, that they are very twisted human beings.
Also at times in the book and at the surface it appears that the Materialist and the Marxist characters have more in common and respect for each other. However, in my interpretation Marxism is presented as the most naïve and dangerous ideology in the story because it completely discounts man’s personal fallen nature as the ultimate incurable problem to solve.
WARNING: “WATCHMEN” SPOILERS!! MAJOR SPOILERS!!
Bill, I have to respectfully disagree about “Watchmen.” Ozymandias’ IS the villain and the other characters were weaklings for going along with him. Rorschach proved to be the hero when he was the only one who refused to buy the whole “the end justifies the means” moral equivalency crap. Which is the whole point of the story ending with the tabloid getting Rorschach’s diary which will reveal the truth. (At least that’s how the book ends. I’ve heard there were some changes in the film.)
To Bill Willingham
Ozmandyias is the “Tragic Hero”? Remind me never to come to your house for dinner. You have got to be kidding. Rorschach is the most tragic. He at least understands man’s nature and still resolutely fights against it. Ozmandyias is some kind of naive cloistered liberal arts university professor that believes the people are disposable pawns to create the great utopia. What did G.K Chesterton say, “Without education we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously.”
I like what the guys over at Protest Warrior said, “Communism has only killed 100 million people…lets give it another chance”.
I also agree with some of the comments that really simplify the story. Its true…get rid of all the hoo haa and the meaning of the story is….There is no hope, DESPAIR EVERYONE!
Doug Krentzlin has the right of it. Ozymandias is the villain, and Rorschach is the hero, precisely because he refuses to go along with the lie. Indeed, the reason why “Watchmen” was so shocking was not because millions of people died (or, at least, that wasn’t the only reason), but because the bad guy won.
I’ve always called Moore the accidential libertarian, because even though he is a raving Marxist he is too intelligent to write stories that lack internal coherence in service of a political point. And whenever he does that, it leads to a libertarian place. In Miracleman, the stand-in for Superman creates hippie liberal heaven on earth, puts Bush and Thatcher in therapy, eliminates money and weapons, etc. Of course, that’s only possible if Superman exists to enforce it and in our world he doesn’t. His V For Vendetta was a slam on Thatcher’s England, except that his conclusion is that NO government can be trusted with that kind of power and that anarchy is superior in the end. He’s practically Murray Rothbard in that one.
I need to read Watchmen again, I guess? I bought the book several years ago and it did nothing for me. I don’t remember specifics, just that I hated basically all the characters and found the story both depressing and unconvincing. Needless to say I’m not fired up about the movie, although I have nerdy enough friends I’m likely to see it no matter what!
Rorshach is not a “liberal” character in any sense of the word (but he is a great one), and the monstrous Ozymandias is clearly the villian, Moore drops many hints his scheme to unite the Cold War war world was not even neccessary and will certainly fail. Alan Moore is no conservative, but Watchmen is too complex of a work too simply fall into one neat little political viewpoint.
That being said, I think Watchmen will be very difficult to translate to the screen (assuming in comes out in the first place with this legal dispute) but if anyone can pull it off, Zach Snyder can.
And Terry, getting back to your original post, Global Communist Revolution was the main Soviet foreign policy goal from 1917 to 1987. It was the Soviet govenrment who badly needed external enemies to justify internal repressions against their own citizens. Perhaps you do not have much knowledge of Russian history (or much else) but you have it completely backward.
Considering Terrys other rants his lack of knowledge of Soviet history should not shock anyone.
I wish I could remember who said it (I’ve just tried searching on Google without luck), but here’s another great quote along the same lines:
“Beware of self-sacrificing people; they are the first to sacrifice others.”
Alexander, others, Bill is saying that Ozymandias was intended by Moore to be the tragic hero. When I read that, a chill went down my spine. Because it is entirely plausible.
He obviously wasn’t saying that he (Bill) thinks Ozymandias was heroic: “…just like all of those poor souls who had and will have to die horribly in order to bring about the glorious communist utopia that will come, if only the superior geniuses of the left are willing to break enough eggs to accomplish it.”
It is chilling that what some leftists’ think of as heroic we conservatives find to be the greatest horror. And think of how horrible what Ozymandias does is– it is supposed to bring the world together and end the Cold War. Because (obviously!) the Cold War is just right-wing war-mongering, and our two societies can live in peace and harmony if we just could mobilize society in some other direction.
Like stopping “global warming.”
Spoilers aplenty:
Doug, do feel free to disagree. Mine is definitely a minority interpretation of the book. But of course I’m right and everyone else is wrong.
But one of the many structural flaws in this book is that the ending, where the plot is exposed by Rorschach’s journal, doesn’t work. Here’s that scene as it would have had to play out, if the book continued for another two or three pages: The editor of the Frontiersman (is that the publication’s name? It’s been a while since I read it) tells his stupid assistant flunky to pick something from the whack-job slush pile to fill a two-inch space in the latest issue — which said editor is feverishly hand pasting-up. The deadline is fast approaching, “So make it quick!” And then we see the stupid assistant reaching for Rorschach’s journal on top of said pile. That’s the cliffhanger on which the original story ends.
But what happens next? What’s the only possible thing that could happen next? The kid grabs the journal, at which point the angry editor/publisher scolds him thusly: “I told you to find anything that will fill two inches of space and you hand me a big fat book? Are you a complete idiot? We don’t have time to read a book! Throw that in the trash and get me something that fits, like I told you to!” And then the story ends without the big plot ever being exposed. Or maybe the kid saves the journal for later — but in no way does it get read and does the plot get exposed in that cliffhanger scene. It just doesn’t work.
One of the many things, large and small, that don’t work in Watchmen. That said, Watchmen is still a remarkable achievement in comics.
And, Alexander, I meant that “tragic hero” line to be read ironically. Even though I cautioned against trying to read Moore’s intentions, I am in fact arguing that Ozymandias was his intended hero of the story and that Rorschach (among so many others) was the intended villain. Personally, I don’t agree that someone like Ozymandias should ever be portrayed as the hero of anything, any more than Stalin should be, but I suspect — and once again I fully acknowledge that mine is a minority interpretation — that is what the story intended.
Bill Willingham
Funnybook Writer esq.
I have to agree with Bill Willingham (good to see a real-life “graphic novelist” posting here – looking forward to your JSA work). Ozymandias is the tragic hero & Rorschach the villain. Of course he became the most popular character – that’s the way it worked in the 80s. Alex P. Keaton on Family Ties was supposed to be a caricature of Reaganites, instead, he became the most iconic character on an otherwise forgettable show.
I think the ending of “Watchmen” worked, because it made clear that Ozymandias’ plot would never be exposed. Either Rorschach’s journal would never be published, for all the reasons that Bill Willingham laid out, or even if someone read it, it would never be taken seriously, dismissed by 99% of the public as some loony rant in a marginal magazine.
The end result, however, is essentially the same: The truth behind Ozymandias’ plot would never be revealed, or at least, be taken seriously. The bad guy’s victory is all but total–he ends the Cold War by faking an alien invasion that kills most of New York, and the world never finds out the truth, despite Rorschach’s best efforts. And “Watchmen” is shocking because, well, the bad guy wins.
Now, if someone can explain what was the point of the pirate comic-within-a-comic in “Watchmen” …
In reply to Bill Willingham, et. al. and with all the necessary SPOILER ALERTS: (By the way, is that THE Bill Willingham? Holy cow! I loved The Elementals! )
I think it’s impossible to read the Watchmen without understanding Moore’s anarchist politics. He isn’t a liberal; he’s really more of a nihilist. And he is as contemptuous of liberals as he is of conservatives — maybe more so. Therefore Veidt is indeed the villain of the piece. His villainy is rooted in his naive liberalism. And Veidt’s plot to save the world, however ingenious, is doomed, doomed, doomed from the start. Dr. Manhattan has the key line — the line the sums up the entire book. It comes in this exchange, just before Dr. Manhattan leaves Earth for the last time:
Veidt: Jon, wait, before you leave… I did the right thing, didn’t I? It all worked out in the end.
Jon: “In the end”? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.
Veidt is left to question and ponder what Dr. Manhattan has told him, but from the proceeding chapters, from Rorschach’s uncompromising struggle to the tragic allegory of the Black Freighter, Moore’s meaning should be clear. It was all for nothing. Man cannot save mankind from itself. You cannot change human nature.
As a fan of the book (and another comics writer) my feeling is Rorschach is the hero of the book as he is the narrator and drives the story forward. It’s his point of view that largely propels the events after the Comedian is killed. He motivates the others into action.
Even though he is portrayed as some crazed ideologue, in many respects, he is proven correct. Someone is murdering masks. Someone is up to something really bad. And he gets the last laugh at the end, presumably.
While I agree with Willingham that in reality, the kid would not get to use the book, I imagine the following thing happening if the story were to continue. He sees that it’s the journal of Rorschach (because he does say that all over the thing), brings it to the attention of his boss. His boss would see a goldmine. Consider how many people peddle conspiracies for money (see 911, JFK). He would capitalize on the book, creating perhaps that world’s version of the truther movement. It might undermine Ozy’s work. Which it should. Because what a stupid plan it was.
I mean, Moore even makes an illusion to the Outer Limits story it is swiped from. 911 shows that you can’t get people to agree on anything for long. Look how long the “world unity” against terrorism lasted.
Moore story is naive. But it is a great yarn.
Plissken79 – January 7th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
“And Terry, getting back to your original post, Global Communist Revolution was the main Soviet foreign policy goal from 1917 to 1987. It was the Soviet govenrment who badly needed external enemies to justify internal repressions against their own citizens. Perhaps you do not have much knowledge of Russian history (or much else) but you have it completely backward.”
The Revolution continues – we are marching towards it faster than ever! That is the purpose of the manufactured economic problems and “solutions.” Create the problem, offer the solution. You can’t have missed the bailout news lately.
Like I said, read “None Dare Call it Treason.”
I recently re-read Watchmen for the first time in years, and a few minor things struck me:
- Moore’s understanding of geopolitics and war can be amusing. Note that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan basically seems to be a rapid blitzkrieg-like affair, overrun in a matter of days and putting Pakistan under similar threat. (As even the most casual 2009 observer knows, to paraphrase noted anchormonster Morbo, AFGHANISTAN DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!)
(The general stuff about Dr. Manhattan’s effect on nuclear deterrence theory seems pretty sound, though.)
- G. Gordon Liddy is misidentified as a former CIA guy, whereas in real life he was in the FBI. (It *is* alternate history, though, so perhaps some alteration led Liddy down a slightly different career path.)
- Surprisingly, Richard Nixon’s portrayal in the book itself is neutral to slightly positive! Granted, Moore gets a lot of mileage out of Nixon without having to show it. “Nixon’s 5th term” are three short words that conjure up all manner of horrors from the imagination of the presumed lefty readership, no doubt effectively. But we don’t actually see Nixon doing anything evil in the book itself, and when we do briefly see him on-panel, he’s shown as a fairly level-headed Commander in Chief (albeit pretty helpless in the face of dire circumstances.)
If “The President” had been given some generic name instead of Richard Milhous Nixon, readers probably wouldn’t think he was especially bad.
WATCHMEN is dreadfully over-rated. I agree with a contemporary 80’s critic who wrote that it sinks under the weight of its own sub-plots.
The Rorshach character is so over the top that it’s hard to judge whether Moore means him to be sarcastic. I’m not sure that Moore is that subtle of a writer; it’s clear that his heroes are Dr. Manhattan and Nite Owl. It’s also a comic book industry irony that audiences have always preferred the no-nonsense, hard-nosed characters like Wolverine and The Punisher who are meant to be anti-heroes but, in good ol’ Dirty Harry fashion, are embraced because of their un-complicated moral codes and willingness to take swift, decisive measures while Spider-Man or the Silver Surfer mumble to themselves.
Boy, one other thing one notices upon rereading the comic is that the villain’s plot was almost breathtakingly naive. How long did our post-9/11 unity last, after all? The rubble was still smoldering when politicians first began maneuvering 9/11 for political gain.
The Watchmen story is so great precisely because people can disagree over the basics of the story such as who is the good and who is the evil.
I myself come at the story as an Objectivist and although I believe Rorschach is ultimately a crazy person who takes things to the utmost extreme, he is by far the most heroic person in the story. In my view, the world Rorshach lives in has driven him to be extreme.
Also, the story is not anywhere near as anti-American as some of the conservatives here are saying. It never comes across as sympathetic to Communism or the Soviets or anything of the sort. It is primarily a story that ties ethics and political questions brilliantly together. How far is to far?
Also, any conservative who defends Nixon as some sort of champion of freedom and the right is totally wrong. In that sense, the negative tone towards Nixon is in my view apolitical. All the political spectrum SHOULD despise that President.
I think I’m gonna like this site – Hey, it’s James Hudnall, and he’s even “one of us,” which I didn’t know before!
The New Frontiersman is slightly problematic (from a nitpicking perspective) if you take everything literally. It seems to be a two-man shoestring operation (like a John Birch Society-type newsletter or something.) Yet it also seems to be fairly widely read and influential, comparable to National Review as perceived by a lefty who’s never actually read a copy of the magazine.
(But it’s not like an unrealistic depiction of the office of a conservative publication hurts the story or anything….)
I just got done reading Watchmen and what a narcissistic piece of crap that was. Typical baby boomer BS. I want the 4 days of my life back that it took to read it.
Reply to Bill Willingham (THE Bill Willingham? Holy cow! I loved The Elementals! ) and with the obligatory SPOILER WARNINGS:
I think you make a persuasive argument for one reading of the story, and I often wondered about that final panel. (BTW, it wasn’t a two-inch space — it was two pages they had to fill.)
Here’s my reading of the Watchmen. Moore is an anarchist and a nihilist. He is not a liberal. I think his contempt for liberals is as great as his contempt for Thatcherites and Reaganites. And I think his contempt for Veidt is as obvious as his contempt for Rorschach. His hero is Dr. Manhattan.
The key line in the story comes near the very end, just before Dr. Manhattan leaves Earth for the final time. Veidt asks Dr. Manhattan if he’s done the right thing. “Everything worked out in the end.” To which Dr. Manhattan replies: “‘In the end?’ Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.”
Veidt is left to question and wonder what he means, but Dr. Manhattan is gone. The meaning should be clear from everything Moore has shown and told us up to that point, from Rorschach’s futile war against “compromise” to the tragic allegory of the Black Freighter: It was all for nothing. Man cannot save mankind from itself. You cannot change human nature.
Whoops… apologies for the modified repost. The first one timed out and I didn’t think it made it, nor did I see it when I returned.
Another comic writer (though not quite on the level of Mr. Willingham or Mr. Hudnall) here…
I think Moore’s politics and philosophy are far more complicated and esoteric than most anyone gives him credit for. Nobody wins in “Watchmen,” not really, and all the characters (and their philosophies) get a fair shake. If there’s any real underlying point to “Watchmen” it’s that even the supermen can’t really save the world — and that’s a scary thought indeed.
If you really want to understand Moore’s philosophy, read “Promethea” where he spends hundreds of pages describing how magic (he is a practicing magician who worships a snake deity of his own creation — seriously) shapes his view of the world. The closest political term I have to describe him is anarchist, but that still doesn’t do him justice.
Suedenim:
The idea behind the New Frontiersman seems to be that this is a formerly influential and popular publication (note the old billboards advertising it) whose popularity has gone so far down the tubes that they’ve had to cut back their office staff to less than five guys just in the hope of having enough money to go on publishing.
And as someone points out further up the thread, they may be right-wing whackos, but they’re the only ones trying to publish anything that gets within shouting distance of the truth. And in a world as f__ked up as that of WATCHMEN, who wants to be reminded of the truth?
I have faith. Zach Snyder is awesome, and if you have any thoughts regarding politics, he threw David Hayter off the crew for trying to turn it into a War on Terror analogy.
Moore is a leftist loon, but I think he’s a relatively honest leftist loon. For example, “V” is supposed to be an anti-Thatcher screed, but in order to create a fascist ruler in Britain, he first had the far-left win by disarming Britain, at least of nuclear weapons. As a result, the country isn’t nuked during WW3, but the collapse of the world, and Britain’s government, allows for the rise of fascism. Thus, fascism rises to power because the left, not the right, opened the door. The movie failed, in large part, because it threw this out.
I enjoyed reading “Watchmen” because it at least gave some voice to all sides. It also explicitly says that the liberal “hero’s” plan is doomed to failure. That’s because it’s based on a lie, one that Rorschach can’t tolerate. He’s a tragic hero, a man unable to compromise his morals at all. Seeing the world in black and white, he’s pretty much doomed. No wonder he’s the book’s favorite character.
I think the story can survive a translation to the big screen by focusing on Rorschach’s investigation into The Comedian’s murder, leading to the larger plans of (shall we avoid spoilers?), er, others. Sure this all takes place within a Cold War framework, but the film can easily use that framework without punctuating it with Moore’s slamming Reagan/Nixon, or his more off the wall ideology.
Admins – can we PLEASE do something about the noxious skinhead that keeps trying to take up residence here?! The Nazi-sympathizer uses Muslim methods: his defecation serves to attract his own kind and dogs like that need to be euthanized.
It never fails to amuse me that when lefties write about societies that supposed to be right wing and everything, there is a lot in common with how the left wants things to look.
I loved “The Watchmen” and while reading it I found many parallels to “Catch 22″ – basically to dress up in spandex to fight crime you have to be crazy and you shouldn’t be crazy if you are fighting crime. Anyone else get the vibe too? The movie does look very good and I’m looking forward to seeing it.
Jonah- As a lifelong comic book reader (and fellow “Marvel Zombie”) and as someone who works in comics today it truly tickles me to see this intelligent analysis of the politics of Watchmen. It has long been one of my favorite reads but I have always fallen short in discussions involving the books politics and my feelings about them… now I can simply point people to this blog post. You have concisely presented every point and argument I’ve wished to make myself.
You dared think for yourself for a moment, eh? Didn’t that feel good?
When “thinking for yourself” carries you past facts, logic, and common sense, that’s called being a fool, Terry.
What it sounds like is that you read precisely one book on the Cold War and didn’t go any farther. You don’t even have to dig. Even a summary knowledge of Cold War history renders your assertion simply absurd. It’s only a step down from Moon Landing Hoaxes and the Mafia assassinating JFK.
The Revolution continues – we are marching towards it faster than ever! That is the purpose of the manufactured economic problems and “solutions.”
Part of the current problems developed were brought about by legal changes designed to bring affirmative action to banking. The other other part comes from companies taking advantage of the changes and people acting irresponsibly with their money. In other words, we’re in this mess because of ignorant government meddling and the actions of private actors, not from decrees and machinations from on high, as if the government ever possessed enough power or competence to engineer something on that scale. Never assume malice when stupidity is a more fitting explanation.
Create the problem, offer the solution. You can’t have missed the bailout news lately.
Politicians are exploiting a situation to expand their power, which happens to be in line with their ideological agenda. But did you happen to notice that the ones championing the bailout were the ones who opposed the hardline American stance during the Cold War and tended to sympathize with the Soviet Union? That sort of puts a wrench in your theory, Terry.
Now, go read The Fountainhead and feel superior to everyone.
And here’s hoping the movie comes out before the end of time. Last I heard, Fox was blocking the release, claiming they and not Warner Bros have the distribution rights due to the long and complicated history of studios and producers passing the project around all these years. I’m sure some compensation agreement will be reached but that March release date is looking iffy.
Except, of course, the outcome if Ozymandias had not stepped in would have been outright nuclear war – the book is fairly unequivocal about that. Granted Ozymandias was a murderous villian (although not a Republic serial villian, definately not), but the true villain of Watchmen was the upcoming war. Ozymandias was the only one who could stop it, what with Dr. Manhattan dithering, the Comedian not caring, and Nite Owl and Rorschach not having the ability to do so.
There is no such thing as “duck and cover” ads. There is however an educational film called “Duck and Cover” which came out in 1952, so maybe it’s all Truman’s fault.
Evidently Alan Moore isn’t the only one who’s unaware.
Yet another spoiler warning.
Except, as my friend and colleague James Hudnall pointed out, the so-called world’s smartest man’s solution to the problem of the impending nuclear war was foolish and unworkable (and ultimately the biggest flaw in a vastly flawed work). Let’s imagine Ozy’s plan worked exactly as he hoped it would and the two superpowers were inspired to forget their petty differences, pull their fingers back from the nuclear buttons, and join together to fight this new, larger enemy, the invading evil super aliens. What would happen next? A worldwide arms buildup so massive as to make the previous arms race between America and the Soviet Empire look positively pacifistic by comparison. And then time passes and no aliens arrive. The previous disaster was narrowly averted, but now we’ve got all these additional nukes and what should we do with them? And then the world inevitably goes back to remembering old grudges and rivalries. Here comes the ever so much bigger nuclear war.
At best Ozy stalled for time at the cost of instigating an inevitable much worse nuclear holocaust a few years down the road. How smart was that?
Since rumor has it that the movie alters Ozy’s scheme and therefore its ending, I’m looking forward to seeing if they came up with a better plan to save the world from itself. However, since the judge presiding over the Watchmen movie rights case recently ruled in Fox’s favor (in every particular I believe) the film may indeed be delayed a bit.
Bill Willingham
Elementals, Fables (among other things) and still, with all these complaints, a die hard Alan Moore fan.
Hey Jonah, Are you going to write for Libertas as well when they come off Summer Hiatus? (If you don’t get it, good for you.)
Does that mean that you end up falling off a skyscraper while Bruce Willis makes wisecracks at your expense ?
Well, that was pretty much the point of Dr. Manhattan’s last message to Ozymandias, that peace is never attainable, and that it must be constantly be worked at (my interpretation, anyway). But at the end, detente is happening (a la Burgers N’ Borscht), so maybe it gets to point where its easier to wage peace than war?
Rock on with Fables and Jack, Mr. Willingham!
P.S. – Is the man with band-aid on his forehead Polyphemus?
dude — the “real” Bill Willingham?!?!? AWESOME!! (Sorry, fanboy geek-out over.)
Thoughts on Rorschach:
Yes, throughout Rorschach’s narration he comes across as a bad right-wing stereotype, but if that was Moore’s intent, he undid (is that even a word?) it by delving into Rorschach’s back-story– absent father, whore (literally) of a mom, yet very bright and who selflessly took up the cause of crime-fighting. It was in the part where he, while searching for a kidnapped little girl, finds out that she had been raped, murdered, and fed to dogs that he “snapped” and burned the murderer alive … how many of us wouldn’t have done the same? To see that kind of pure, unadulterated yet entirely human evil face to face? How many people who read “Watchmen” thought to themselves, “Yup, burn baby, burn?” I’m not sure where I’m going with this, but of all the “super-heroes” of “Watchmen,” it’s Rorschach’s story that I find the most compelling, and possibly the most relatable.
But at the end, detente is happening (a la Burgers N’ Borscht), so maybe it gets to point where its easier to wage peace than war?
There is something to that – for instance, war with China is probably a lot less likely than it might otherwise be, simply because there’s so much trade between us and them that its cessation would ruin their economy (and be pretty bad for ours as well.)
(By the way, I loved Shadowpact, Bill. D. Chimp oughtta be on the ticket in 2012!)
Zach
you’re missing the point about Dr Mahattan. For one thing, it’s explicitly stated that even he can’t stop every nuclear warhead. His arrival on the world stage led the Soviet Union to nuclear proliferation in an attempt to ‘even’ things up against the USA.
More than that, he’s now so powerful he no longer feels any connection towards humanity. That’s – again – explicitly stressed in an early issue (#2 iirc) when he’s remembering about watching the Comedian shoot a pregnant woman. The Comedian points out that Mahattan could have easily stopped him but didn’t cause he no longer has any empathy towards humanity. We’re so far below him we don’t matter to him anymore. He doesn’t care what happens to us. So yes, he could have threatened to teleport all the world leaders to oblivion, or dismantle all nuclear weapons but he simply can’t be bothered as we no longer interest him.
As for Rorsharch being a caricature – well, duh. It’s a comic book – every one in there was a carcicature!
Fishbrake – You’re right, I should have said “drills” not ads. That said, the mania that led to those drills reached their height under JFK.
Kennedy — not Reagan or even Nixon — proclaimed in his first annual address to Congress that “Before my term has ended we shall have to test again whether a nation organized and governed such as ours can endure.
The outcome is by no means certain.” His administration created the “situation room,” formed “crisis” teams and declared nearly 20 crises during his abbreviated presidency. They distributed fifty-five million wallet-sized cards with instructions on what to do when the nukes started raining from the sky. That’s more fear-mongering than anything that occurred under Reagan. That was my basic point which your snarky-but-accurate correction doesn’t rebut.
Bill, that is precisely the point! I do not think Alan Moore concluded his story with the notion that the evil Ozymandias’ plan for a global utopia would actually succeed, hence Dr. Manhattan’s final line to him as well as the final panel of the novel. Indeed, the scheme might collapse in the exact way you put it.
And Klute, we are not sure that the world would have gone to war if Ozymandias had not launched his scheme. The millions of dead in New York did not die for the cause of world peace, they died because they were murdered by Adrian Veidt.
Besides, “Burgers and Borscht” is meant to be a satire, do not take it too seriously. I have not seen any in Russia or here, have you?
Terry, please, read Robert Conquest, Richard Pipes, George Kennan, Andrei Sakharov, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Oleg Khlevniuk or Vladislav Zubok. Please, and stop embarrassing yourself
am so tired of the praise for moore. he is a one trick pony. he takes characters others have created and makes them dark. i remember an interview where he discussed the chance of giving the treatment to tarzan. he looked forward to writing about the heros adolescent sexual experimentation with the apes.
the only thing worse is the hundreds of imitators he’s inspired.
aintitcool.com has the Japanese trailer that features Nixon and the political stuff. things that were left out of USA trailer:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/39675
Also need to remember that Manhattan can ’see’ into the future, so knows what the outcome will be. His ending comment to Ozy could be seen not just as a vague warning, but as an factual statement.
Whether it’s because he knows they’ll publish Rorscharch’s journal, or knows that human nature will again take over and Ozy’s great plan just delayed the inevitable is left to us to decide.
Another possibility is that Manhattan just said that cause he knew it would force Ozy into further action which would inevitably lead to him failing. In order to continue with the world being united against a common threat, there needs to be a common threat. After a decade or so without a monster to attack, people would stop caring about it, and start bickering amongst themselves again. Ozy is too arrogant and sure of himself to let his plans fail (how else can you excuse his lame computer password but out of sheer arrogance?) so would feel ‘obiliged’ to continue to prove that he really is the “world’s smartest man”.
So in effect Manhattan does win in the end by cleverly manipulating Ozy into inevitable eventual failure.
Terry,
Thank you for giving me the best laugh I’ve had in a very long time. Really.
Mike
Random comments and replies…
1) Given that the New Frontiersman, a conservative mag, was named for Kennedy’s vision of America, I have to think Moore has at least some sympathy for the characters on the conservative side.
2) MOVIE AND POLITICS: The movie does not change the 80s setting or politics. Snyder is trying very hard to stick to the original story with few alterations (if I can paraphrase Chris Matthews, when I saw a still of the Minutemen, a thrill ran up my leg). However…
3) MOVIE ENDING CHANGES (SPOILER for those who’ve not read the comic). The ending is almost exactly the same (down to the final shot in the NF offices), but there is no squid. Note that the Black Freighter story has been cut from the film, but has also been made into an R-rated animated feature which will be released on DVD the day the film is released.
4) RORSCHACH TRIVIA: Rorschach is based on The Question, a Charlton superhero created by Steve Dikto and inspired by Ayn Rand. Given that Rand believed in the idea of man as hero, the Watchmen, by treating the heroes as men, can be seen as a counterpoint, and would explain why Rorschach is so at odds with his world. ASIDE: All the Watchmen characters are based on Charlton characters (Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, Peacemaker, etc). Moore was originally going to write the story with these characters, which DC had just acquired, but when DC saw what he had planned for them, they flinched.
5) WHEEDON’S POLITICS: I love Wheedon, and he’s a flaming lib, but also politically clueless. Buffy’s final season aired in 2002-2003, the first post-9/11 season, during the very public debate leading up to the Iraq War: Episode Two: The Bushes Strike Back. The story of the season had Buffy, our hero, choosing to stop acting defensively and raise an army and launch a preemptive strike against The First, one of the main sources of evil in the world. Somehow, Joss was surprised when people thought it was meant as an endorsement of the Bush Doctrine.
6) SPEAKING OF JOSS AND DR. EVIL: Just watched the Dr. Evil DVD. I have to say this has the best commentary track EVER: Commentary: The Musical! It features 13 new songs including “Strike” (Slunk back to our offices/declaring victory/If you need your residuals/why’d you all agree?), “I’m Better than Neil” (Neil played a kid doctor/well so did I dude/but I was much younger/and totally nude) and of course “Commentary” (Hope you had fun/cause now we’re done/You’ve listened to every word/seeing it through/makes each of you/a huge ****ing nerd).
7) Ozy as villain: There should be no question. Moore wrote this to criticize the notion of putting too much trust in hero figures (notably Thatcher and Reagan). Ozymandias demonstrates that danger by killing millions for the greater good. The plot itself is doomed, not because of Rorschach or Manhattan (who regains his own interest in humanity not from a heroic act but from Sally discovering her own very human history – this itself could stand in for Moore (then) growing tired of superheroes and finding renewed interest in real human drama) but because of basic human nature. The countries and cultures of the world may initially rally together as they recognize something must be done, but the “what” that needs to be done would be hotly debated, and could itself lead to new wars.
Jonah, how wonderful you provided an opportunity to read intelligent commentary about comic books. I’m delighted to read you are a comic books guy AND a Marvel guy!
I read Watchmen when first published. I was enthralled with the story telling and Moore’s film noir/EC Comics atmosphere. I reread it in the late 90’s and was appalled by the nihilism and moral indifference. Even so I look forward to the movie and hope they can produce something as fine and thought provoking as the recent Dark Knight, Iron Man and X-men flicks.
This may be bit off-topic but I’ve been thinking about how superheroes seem to fall in to certain categories. Here’s my list of hero types:
Vengeance: Batman, Punisher, Daredevil
Repentence: Spiderman, Dr. Strange
Altruistic/values: Superman, X-Men, Thor, Wonder Woman, Captain America
Adventure: Fantastic Four, Conan, Nick Fury, Iron Man
Villians seem to have their own categories:
Power/Greed: The Kingpin Dr. Doom, Lex Luthor, Darkseid, Mandarin
Ends justifes the means: Magneto
All purpose crazies: The Joker, Bullseye, Venom, Two-Face, Riddler (Batman seems to have cornered this market).
Misguided but redeemable: Wolverine, Hawkeye, Gambit, Catwoman
Not sure where to put the Hulk, Dr. Fate or Ghost Rider.
I know motivations can periodically jump from category to category but I think I’ve captured the key motivations for these characters. Tell me if I’m missed a category. Would love to hear others’ thoughts on these.
P.S. If you are looking for another top notch Alan Moore read check out his Eclipse Miracleman. The protrayal of Kid Miracleman’s evil is truly horrifying and sympathetic. A difficult combination.
Gunnar –
I’m guessing you never read “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow”, “Top 10″, “Promethea” or any number of other Moore books with a decidedly less grim tone.
Moore’s “one trick” was not to make characters darker but to add some humanity to them, which, given their pristine nature to begin with, often did give them darker hues.
By the time Watchmen came out the comics industry was already having problems. Their audience was steadily growing older, and Marvel and DC (especially) were having trouble keeping their interest. Moore and others helped give the genre a boot in the ass that allowed the medium to mature.
But many people missed what Moore really did with Watchmen, and for that matter Frank Miller in Dark Knight Returns, and rather than focus on writing and character and theme, thought, like you, that “dark” was the trick that worked, much as many film studios in the late 70s saw the success of Star Wars and thought anything with a laser in it should be a box office bonanza.
It must also be said that Moore too was dismayed but these hackneyed copycats, and with his own book 1963, contributed to the return of heroism in super-hero books (though the most notable artists leading the charge were Kurt Busiek, Mark Wade and Alex Ross). The difference this time is that it was possible to have heroes that had depth, and to tell stories that were simply better told, in no small part due to the work Moore did on Watchmen.
What created the crash in the 90s was not the “dark” turn of the characters but the relentless marketing to “speculators” that churned out so many special editions covers that you couldn’t walk into a comic shop without sunglasses to block the light gleaming off holofoil covers. When that fad ended, comics sunk back to where they were heading in the 80s – a shrinking medium aimed at 15-30 year old nerds (like me). With increased entertainment competition, spiraling costs causing woeful dollar-for-entertainment value ($5 for a comic that takes 10 minutes to read), and a general disinterest in reading among youth in general, and the decline in the field was pretty near inevitable.
Donb71inwa:
Good observations. Some nit picks:
1) I wouldn’t put Wolverine as a villain. He definately belongs in the hero category, straddling the “vengeance/repentence” categories.
2) Dr. Fate is an odd character, but as an agent of the Lords of Order, I would say “altruism”. Hulk would be repentance (well, Banner at any rate). Ghost Rider is all over the map depending on the era.
3) Few heroes really fit the vengeance archetype exclusively, the Punisher an obvious exception. Vengeance is a motivator for Daredevil at the beginning, but depending on the writer, he falls into repentence, adventure and altruism as well. Batman depends completely on the writer. Some see his vow over his parents grave as a vow of revenge, others see it as a vow of altruism. The altruism angle is the one that is used most often, as most writers (Frank Miller excepted) see Batman as more obsessed with saving the victims rather than punishing the criminals.
4) Original Thor I would likely put under repentence, as he was sentenced to a mortal form to learn humility.
5) I’d add “money” to the villain’s list, as many villains are either mercs for hire (Bullseye) or just traditional thieves (most of Flashes rogues gallery). You could also put “fame and glory/ego” in there, which is more where Riddler belongs (he’s OCD – not nuts).
I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet, but the smiley face picture is reversed. The blood spatter should be over the Left eye–sort of like the minute hand on a clock, 5-10 minutes from midnight
.
The libertarian leanings of Whedon’s work is the result of libertarian Tim Minear as his writing and production partner.
Wow. Great thread here.
Alan Moore would probably disagree, but I think Watchmen is a very conservative book.
The two most right-wing (and allegedly unlikeable) characters–Rorschach and Comedian–end up being remarkably sympathetic. Rorschach’s a loon, but at the end of the book, he’s the only one left with any sense of right and wrong. And he gets killed for it. Comedian is a very nasty character, but Sally Jupiter found some reason to love him–and when Comedian realizes what Veidt’s up to, it’s so horrific that it breaks him.
The purpose of the pirate comic is to illustrate, very clearly, that Adrian is the villain of the piece. Just like that guy on the raft, Adrian intends to save everything he loves, but he becomes the very threat he set out to stop. He even mentions it in his final conversation with Dr. Manhattan: “I dreamt I was on a raft . . .”
Moral of the story: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Note also that the New Frontiersman–which is indeed run by a couple of crackpots–ends up with the actual truth. When they print it, it’s likely that not many will believe it, but the truth IS out there. My take on Dr. Manhattan’s parting comment (”Nothing ever ends.”) is that Manhattan, being able to see past/present/future simultaneously, knows what’s going to happen, and he’s telling Adrian that he won’t get away with it.
Adrian Veidt is an almost-perfect vision of the modern celebrity/millionaire do-gooder–fawning liberal profiles in Rolling Sto-uh, I mean, Nova Express, etc.
In closing, I’ve waited 20 years for a Rorschach action figure.
you’re right. i’ve never read promethea, or man of tomorrow. but i noticed you didn’t mention miracle man, or lost girls. what you view as adding humanity, i see as writing the proctologists view of a story. moore ran this technique into the ground halfway through watchmen. and while i don’t particularly like his dark work, he is simply better at that than when writing conventional/heroic plots.
i’m just old enough to remember when thosebooks came out initially. watchmen, darknight, cerebus. really hard to describe what comics were like before them but now the real world/morose/anti hero genre has exhausted itself. am waiting for somebody to revive told comic book virtues.
p.s. does anyone know whatever became of frank miller’s batman versus al queda book? two three years back i heard it was inked and ready to go, then nothing.
Comments calling Alan Moore a nihilist are way off…read some of his newer stuff, particularly Promethea…the guy believes in EVERYthing. I’d buy Garth Ennis as a nihilist, but Alan Moore would be the least likely suspect.
I’ve been waiting for a Rorschach action figure, too, but the prototype I saw looks like crap. Of an infinity of possible face designs they managed to pick a lousy one.
As a former Comics professional (Inker not tracer), Watchmen had a profound effect on those working in the industry. The regimented Panels that only broke out of that three by three grid on rare occasions, and those precisely inked lines, visually was a primly designed ,neat world, contrasting with the rough, more impressionistic stylings of Frank Miller’s “Dark Knight Returns”. The story, in spite of the writer’s Politics opposite of mine, still drew me in, and his work still does on occasion. He also wrote the last Superman Story before a major restart of the franchise, within the continuity spanning back to the original Siegel and Schuster Issues. Watchmen inspired a lot of (bad) imitators, but that is the nature fo the comics business, reshuffling archetypes and costume details until you get something that can pass copyright without obvious plagiarism.
Looking at the Japanese Trailer , it does look as if the Political tropes of the Cold War are being brought to the fore, including that rather glossily re-enacted Kennedy Assassination. Now I’ll still see it, unless the reviews in the L.A. Weekly are toxic enough to chase me off. but every time I read the book I still get wrapped up in it.
But these days, there is precious little that can hold a Comic Fan’s attention with that sort of power any more.
Scott
“Given that the New Frontiersman, a conservative mag, was named for Kennedy’s vision of America, I have to think Moore has at least some sympathy for the characters on the conservative side.”
Is that actually true? Yes, I remember that Kennedy’s speechwriters came up with the New Frontier schtick, but is that where Moore got it from? BTW, the John Birch Society’s publication was first called American Opinion and later The New American. “Frontier” is an insult in the minds of European leftists, as are “cowboy”, “pioneer”, and “settler”.
While we’re at it, any remotely conservative comment section will soon be infested by leftist trolls trying to discredit the site by posing as extreme right-wingers posting racist and defamatory comments. Just delete them.
Moore is an anarchist, the libertarian left. In Britain in the 1980s, Reagan seemed to be a ridiculous figure, even to those with right-wing views. The premise was that Dr Manhattan would have swung the balance of the cold war strongly towards the USA. I suppose you could say that
As for the American right being classic liberalism, that’s just part of the picture and it hardly tallies with the religious fundamentalism and “moral majority” stance widely associated with the right.
Oops, I didn’t finish a sentence. Here it is:-
The premise was that Dr Manhattan would have swung the balance of the cold war strongly towards the USA. I suppose you could say that Dr Manhattan could have subdued the Soviet Bloc by himself, but his otherworldly character suggests that he wouldn’t have done that. He was happy to be a deterrent.
BTW, I discovered this blog through a Google alert for Alan Moore.
I wouldn’t say the political message of Watchmen is dated at all. I have to wonder if you think Dr. Stangelove is dated as well.
@ he seems to think the Cold War was a purely Reaganite phenomena
I would like to hear more support for this statement. I can’t think of anything from the book that supports this, however I can think of lots that contradicts it. For instance the book’s focus on Vietnam as a major turning point of the cold war.
Within the universe of the book the creation of Dr. Manhatten was another important turning point of the cold war and that happened in the 50’s or 60’s. McArthyism, Red Scares, Duck and Cover, CIA front, Vietnam protests… it’s all in there.
Perhaps Reagan’s shadow hangs over the books so predominiently because it’s a product of the Reagan years rather than because Moore was trying to make some deliberate statement about Reagan.
Honestly the whole argument rubs me the wrong way. And not even because I disagree with it but because Watchmen is a work far beyond our petty left/right bickering. It has actual ideas about the world where politicians and pundits have only shallow talking points.
Nice column Jonah. I’ve never read the novel, so it’s nice to get the lowdown. It also makes a lot more sense why some of my extremely Liberal friends would have considered it their favorite of the genre (anything that is built on Reagan-hate would be perfect for them). As for the movie, I’m far more interested in the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth by the fanboys over the lawsuit and possible delay of the release. It’s about the most amusing thing happening on talkbacks in this ridiculously depressing news cycle.
[...] [Commentary] A conservative take on Watchmen Link: Jonah Goldberg [...]
Another comic book writer signing in.
I was as much a fan as anyone of WATCHMEN when it came out (if, like most comic book stories, you sift through the best parts and ignore the silly parts)… but I have always wondered why Moore was given so much credit for humanizing or grounding or deconstructing or whatever word one uses to describe what supposedly came after.
Even if you don’t take into account Harry Osborn’s drug addiction, or Speedy’s for that matter… even the Vision’s original love affair with the Scarlet Witch was handled in a way that asked what if these characters existed in a world where bigots would actually blow themselves up to protest the love between (let’s call them) mixed races. (Gosh, how prescient was that? In 1973! “Your Young Men Shall Slay Visions!”)
Even Frank’s brutal of slaying of Elektra by Bullseye was as “grounded” a murder as ever happened in a comic (before or since?) and Matt’s breakdown was way more explicit than anything Peter had gone through some twenty years earlier. And this Elektra storyline took place in 1981.
I’m just saying, Alan is an awesome writer, but this notion that he’s the Father Of Comic Book Realism or whatever other title we want to bestow should at long last be tossed. Alan was the result of everything that came before him, not the cause of everything since.
I think.
Also, I have to say, there is a certain comedy to Alan’s perpetual snit about the bastardization of his work. Here he took the creations of a whole bunch of other creators before him, changed their names and costumes, wrote a super hero story about them, presumably cashing a few checks in the process.
How come when Alan Moore does it to someone else it is art. And when someone does it to Alan Moore the person is a whore?
Just asking!
[...] By datechguy Am I the only comic book fan in the last 20 years that didn’t care for The Watchmen and has absolutely no plans to see the [...]
Bill Willingham
I apologize for the misinterpretation earlier. It is indeed chilling that Alan Moore really intended Ozmandyias to be the tragic hero, no matter how conscious or nuanced his position of that point is. Oz didn’t quite solve the problem of the Gordian Knot though. He is very close. I think he will ultimately realize that to solve the worlds problems it would be better to kill everyone, which I believe is a logical outcome if you take his Marxist tendencies to its ultimate conclusion.
Watchmen was ground-breaking for the comics world in that it was innovative in looking at its business from a very different perspective. Maybe the public doesn’t like us, only tolerates us because we neutralize bad guys, and we’re just as messed up as the account executive on the morning commuter train. What is remarkably underreported- in the year of the Iron Man and Dark Knight movies-is what’s happening in the medium from whence they came. As in- DC just killed off Batman. The original. Bruce Wayne. To many of us, the Ultimate Comic Book Hero. A few months earlier, Marvel did the same to Captain America- defender of freedom, longtime Avenger, father figure to many other heroes. No doubt to multiple howlings by the fan faithful. But clear in that the biggest sacred cows are ripe for slaughter, in the interests of a good story. Part of it is in reaction to the constant deconstructionism in the X-Men books- since Chris Claremont wrote the original book, the custom has been for almost any character to die at any time. They- and the Watchmen, Batman, etc.- are in a high-risk trade.
Mmmm, I just read Watchmen for the First time recently and I didn’t see it that way at all. I was expecting something more nihilistic; it wasn’t. i was expecting something more political. Again, it wasn’t.
I saw it as a serious attempt to figure out how things would be different if there really were superheroes. Or really, one superhero. the rest were just guys in tights, although rorsach (sp?) was alot of fun for a mortal.
What i saw it as, was a withering critique of the whole superhero concept. This is where the movie seems to be missing the point. In the trailers these guys are cool. in the comic, they don’t seem cool at all. Rorsach was cool. The rest have mostly ridiculous costumes, and they are just messed up.
i don’t see the rest of it as being very political.
That Moore is a very talented writer is evidenced by this very thread. 100+ comments on a comic book written over 20 years ago. I dare say that none of what passes for contemporary literature will be discussed with such interest 20 years from now.
Plissken79
“And Klute, we are not sure that the world would have gone to war if Ozymandias had not launched his scheme.”
No, and it’s hinted that Nixon didn’t want it, but wasn’t especially going to go out of his way to avoid.
“The millions of dead in New York did not die for the cause of world peace, they died because they were murdered by Adrian Veidt.”
Hey, I’m not going to take a pro-mass murder standpoint, but you can’t deny that at least in the short-term, war was averted.
“Besides, “Burgers and Borscht” is meant to be a satire, do not take it too seriously. I have not seen any in Russia or here, have you?”
Well, no. But I also haven’t seen any people dressing up in costume and fighting crime here around here either. In the world of Watchmen, B n’ B appears to have surpassed McDonald’s.
The problem with the V movie was it took the anti-govt outlook and made it anti-conservative.
There was a semi-anti-American viewpoint in Watchmen, but after five terms of Nixon how could there not be? Now five terms of Reagan and that’s a different story!
That is my point, Klute, “averted in the short-term.” As others have pointed out, once the Aliens fail to attack earth, the Cold War would resume, only with even bigger arsenals of war on the part of NATO and Warsaw Pact nations. Veidt’s murderous plan will fail, despite its initial apparent success as Dr. Manhattan makes quite clear to him. Besides, war had not broken out yet, so we cannot even say if Veidt delayed a possible conflict. The US and the USSR were extremely close to WWIII from the fall of 1950 to the spring of 1951 during the Korean War (specifically the Chinese intervention), just as close as they are in Watchmen, yet the two countries did not actually go to war.
As long as the Soviet Union was guided by Marxism-Leninism, the Cold War was inevitable, something that many who claim to be “experts” on the conflict do not understand.
One more point on Burgers and Borscht, having had Borscht on many occasions when living in Russia (although it is actually a Ukrainian dish) I cannot think of something that would go with it worse than American hamburgers
What made Watchmen so interesting to me is that the hero of the book is at the end revealed to be the villain, and the villain is revealed to be the hero. Veidt is the hero because he succeeds in saving the world, and Rorshach is the villain because if he succeeds there will be nuclear holocaust. Rorsach is much more likeable than he is intended to be because his politics are not horrible to most people as they are to Moore.
Moore’s comics are intended to be political allegories but he is so out of touch with political realities that nothing in his comics are at all related to what they are supposed to be allegorical to. Thus his comics end up being more interesting because the political statements he thinks he is making are lost, while the philosphical questions he raises become paramount.
Sounds like more Murray Rothbard, useful idiot, porn
Moore’s political view seems to be limited government. Somehow, the Left has been able to claim that view. Just as many Anarchists are actually Communists in disguise.
Wait. David “Solid Snake” Hayter was trying to spin it as a “War on Terror” analogy? Is he a lefty or did he just think that it was an interesting idea? I have to know, yet I fear the answer.
FYI, Jonah, I think the correct Kennedy quote (that he never got to deliver) is “we are the watchmen on the walls of world freedom.”
Which does have an alliterative ring to it.
I’ll be curious to see what Hollywood does with Captain America. He was literally a genetic enhanced superhuman made to fight for America, first a nazi fighter, and later, communisms worst enemy. he was all American. I hope they take a cue from Iron Man and retain Captain America’s patriotism.
Jonah, Jonah, Jonah. Alan Moore is an Anarchist. Of course you think he’s wrong. Why is this even news? HOW is it even news?
Thomas Talionis, Moore’s political view is NO government. Because he’s an Anarchist. He believes in horizontal societal organization. And “Communists in disguise?” Do you know ANYTHING about Socialism at ALL? Go read a book, please.
So basically this whole thing is “Watchmen is wrong because Alan Moore is a hard leftist, and hard leftism is wrong.” Wowwwwww.
[...] Out For
Thanks Jonah, I will not watch Watchmen because of what you wrote. I mean in in all honesty. Who knows what they might do to this movie that is coming out in March! I cant wait for Iron Man 2 Batman and Transformer, that is coming out in 2010.I heard Eddie Murphy is the Riddler!
I love my comic movies that come to life but please dont shove liberal politics down my throat as I like to say. I just HATE that of hollywood. People go to movies to get away from Politics and home. I wish Captain America came tolife in a Movie. Brody is right he was all American. I was excited to see Spiderman come back into theatres but seeing that they put obama and spiderman in the same comic book,
I am not sure if I want to see spiderman after all when ever it does come out in theater. What political stuff will they put on in Spider man movie if any. I just want to enjoy my movies not shove politics down my throat! God Help us all with Obama in office! I just hope we can take back Senate and congress and house in 2010 and take back America in 2012 I hope Sarah Palin Runs! Keep up an Excellent Job Jonah all of you guys are great!
Hey! Scott Lobdell! Cool!
My view is that while Moore didn’t usher in “realism” in comics – it had been, as you point out, coming in dribs and drabs for decades- I think he opened the spigot more than most. And I think he went further in looking at the pschological make up, and the potential impact superheroes would have on the “real” world than any other mainstream book up to that point. Sure we had Spidey’s guilt, Ben Grimm’s melancholy, Ollie Queen’s liberal crusaderism, but I don’t recall many heroes with sexual fetishses, God complexes, or plain old psychotic breaks. Of course, as I said earlier, it was also told masterfully, but its a lot harder to copy a man’s ingenuity and hard work, so it doesn’t get the same attention.
As for bastardizing his work, I think there is a difference in his mind between the character and the story. Alan Moore told a fantastic Superman story, but I don’t think he cares that anyone might write Watchmen fanfic. But if they were to try to adapt his story, it should be done right. With the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, he took characters no one was doing anything with (unless you count the umpteenth retelling of Dracula) and used those characters to tell NEW stories. Then along comes LXG, which claimed to be an adaptation of his story, even though it bore little resemblance.
The show “Lost” owes a lot to the Watchmen as well. From the repeating symbols (hidden smiley faces, triangles, shadows of lovers, et. al.); It is a great book and the movie will be great visually, but this story cannot be told in 2 to 3 hours.
Go out and read it – there are podcasts that are going panel-by-panel in some cases (Half Hour Wasted’s Legion of Dudes and Comic Geek Speak) to learn more about the story.
If you only enjoyed entertainment with people that agreed with you, then there wouldn’t be much to enjoy.
There seems to be a bit of a love/despise Joss Whedon thing on this post and in this community.
I once read that Joss Whedon called himself an “angry atheist” which I thought was a fascinating term as, to me, it implied a disconnection from God that left him feeling frustrated. I should say that I don’t know him so this is just my reading into the quote but I think it is interesting. His works usually include some distraught hero desperately fighting for hope against all odds. They are always surrounded by evil and challenges but keep on fighting. Maybe Joss looks at all the evidence from the fall and wonders where God is and wants him to show up. Again, I don’t know them man so this is just an opinion.
Still the relationship between Mal and Shepherd Book is a relationship in which Book is very strong in Faith and Mal is very resistant. I always wondered if this was from Joss’ struggle.
The actual quote is as follows, “I’m a very hard-line, angry atheist. Yet I am fascinated by the concept of devotion. ”
Food for thought.
I love Watchmen and resisted the excitement for a long time. I can’t fight it anymore bring on the movie.
Jake VanKersen
The token Christian, Liberal, Film Student Graduate, Comic Book Nerd
This will be my last time at this site, as it is filled with people who know nothing. After writing an entire book proving that, Jonah Goldberg seems to have far too many outlets to reinforce the point. For example, Goldberg writes here that the “title “Watchmen” is an allusion to a real JFK speech – “We are the watchmen of freedom” – that was never delivered because of the assassination, which in Moore’s alternate reality was probably masterminded by Nixon.”
Hrm.
It is, of course, no such thing, but is a reference to the Roman poet and satirist Juvenal’s famous line “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” (Who watches the watchmen?) In other words, who will protect us against the protectors? As to say more would give too much away (and to say even this has done some damage, I fear), I will only say that this is the theme of Moore’s work–and, actually, a lot of his work–that we should fear those with too much power, especially when they are certain they know what’s best.
So what Nitpicker is implying – “that we should fear those with too much power, especially when they are certain they know what’s best” – might be a good analogy for the upcoming Obama administration who will control $1 trillion of the USA’s economy in order to make it “better”? Maybe this movie isn’t about Reagan or Nixon after all.
(The scene: a line outside of the Watchmen movie.)
Bill says: Actually, Nitpicker, Jonah Golberg is right. The title Watchmen is a reference to the line from the undelivered JFK speech. Alan Moore has said as much himself. But you’re right too. It’s also a reference to “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.” And not only that, it’s a reference to… But wait a minute. Why blather on myself, when I have Alan right here, hiding behind this movie marquee?
(Bill steps behind movie marquee, briefly pulls Marshall McLuhan out from behind it, realizes his mistake, puts McLuhan back and grabs Alan Moore from behind the same marquee.)
Alan: Actually, Mr. Nitpicker, it’s true. Watchmen as a title was intended to work on multiple levels, with several meanings, each embedded with their own connections, allusions and… uhm, anyway, it is a reference to the JFK line, and to the Juvenal quote, and also a rumination on the statement from Albert Einstein, who’d said something along the lines of, “If I’d known what they were going to do with my work” — he was referring to nuclear weapons of course — “I’d have become a watchmaker, like my father.” And that just scratches the surface. Watchmen is also an ironic reference to gears in an actual watch, where a small movement of one causes shifts and movements in so many others, stressing the interrelated nature of all things in…
Bill: Uh, I think he’s got the point now, Alan. You can go back behind the marquee now.
Alan: Alright. I’ll bid you gents a cheerio then — unless you’d like me to discuss all of the myriad meanings behind the V from V for Vendetta…
Bill: No, Alan. We’re good.
(Alan Moore exits)
Bill turns back to Nitpicker and says: So do you see? One inspiration doesn’t preclude another. And with a genius talent like Alan Moore’s (and I don’t use the genius term lightly) a title like Watchmen may derive from many sources, both obvious and obscure. And just between you, me and the lamppost, don’t you think, “It is, of course, no such thing,,,” just a bit harsh? Even vigorous debate can include a few basic manners.
(Dave Gibbons frantically waves his hand from behind the [very crowded it seems] same marquee, eager to come out and discuss the complex visual interrelationships in the story, but sadly the scene fades to black.)
I am surprised to see so many folks here commenting on how Moore got his politics “wrong.” Moore has strong political views, no doubt, but he is, in the final analysis a (brilliant) comic book writer. Moore did not get his politics wrong, he chose to extrapolate one fictioanl path based on what he saw at the time of the writing.
Bill Willingham on Jan 7th (1:10 pm):
But what happens next? What’s the only possible thing that could happen next? The kid grabs the journal, at which point the angry editor/publisher scolds him thusly: “I told you to find anything that will fill two inches of space and you hand me a big fat book? Are you a complete idiot? We don’t have time to read a book! Throw that in the trash and get me something that fits, like I told you to!” And then the story ends without the big plot ever being exposed. Or maybe the kid saves the journal for later — but in no way does it get read and does the plot get exposed in that cliffhanger scene. It just doesn’t work.
Yes, Rorschach sends his journal to the New Frontiesman, the only people he trusts in the entire world. And the editor of the magazine dismisses the entire work as the ravings as a madman.
Irony.
But the comic book concludes with his diary about to be read (in more depth) by an ugly, right-wing, red-haired guy with freckles. Gee, what are the odds? Rorschach II, anyone?
But I completely agree with Mr. Willingham’s Jan 8th (10:14 pm) statement about the origins of the Watchmen title. Years back I read an interview with either Alan Moore, Frank Miller or Harlan Ellison. Think it was Miller, but it’s not important.
Anyways, if I recall the story correctly, the three of them were having dinner sometime during the run of the Watchmen. Alan Moore wondered aloud where the expression “Who watches the watchmen?” originally came from — and Ellison said something to the effect of, “Are you crazy? That’s Juvenal!”
Mmm, so I guess the point I was trying to make by retelling that story is that even Alan Moore wasn’t aware of the Juvenal reference when he was writing the comic.
A slightly different take: It seemed to me that Moore was really having a bit of a joke underneath it all. What makes comics work are the villains, not the heroes. The early Superman (Golden Age) stories were awful. Superman beats up a wife beater, catches a spy, etc. It wasn’t until he faced what came to be called super villains, as opposed to ordinary “real” crooks that the stories became interesting. And they also tended to follow a pattern. You’d have a hero with superpowers facing a villain who was super smart. Superman vs. Lex Luthor. Captain America vs. The Red Skull, Hulk vs. The Leader, etc. The bad guys would also have or work for a large organization where the hero would be mostly alone. There would be some powerful villains along the way but the main nemesis was usually someone who was a mad genius and (supposedly) smarter then the hero. Though it usually worked out that the the hero had to out think the bad guy in the end and not just use his powers. Ditto if he ran into someone who was stronger then he was. He had to out think them to win.
A common burglar may have shot Spiderman’s Uncle Ben but he was quickly facing The Vulture and the Green Goblin. I don’t think people would still be reading comics if it was Batman vs. Tony Soprano. Super Heroes need Super Villains and the in the world of the Watchman there weren’t any.
The nemesis’s were closer to what could be found in the Pulp Magazines of the 30’s and 40’s. Rorschach was based on The Question but he was also very much like Popular Publications The Spider. Except for the fact that they dressed in costumes all of the heros were more like pulp heros then comic heroes. The only person in he entire comic who had super powers was Dr. Manhattan. Without super villains the heroes wind up working for the government or retiring. The Owl may have been like Batman but he was also a bit like Doc Savage or Richard Benson.
It seemed to me that ultimately Ozymandias was Lex Luthor (or Dr. Doom if you prefer). He gave Oz a better or more realistic reasoning then LL but the ego and logic underpinning were the same.
As for comics now killing off Bruce Wayne and Steve Rogers. I’m sure they’ll be back if for no other reason then copyrights. DC brought back all of the other earths so I suspect they’ll be back too. Marvel brought back Bucky and DC Jason Todd. DC even brought back Thomas Wayne and made him a villain so I doubt that Bruce and Steve are gone forever.
Not that I’m a cynic or anything.
Kurt, for Jonah et al, proving that Moore got his comic book politics “wrong” reassures them that they, in their clear-eyed wisdom, got the real-world politics right. That’s the point of the whole exercise.
In the massive conservative wreckage of the last eight years, this self-validation through the negative example of decades-old supposed stupid liberal art at least a security blanket the right can cling to, ratty and sad though it may be. But notice that when Jonah or Bill Willingham decry some aspect of liberalism as “nonsense” it’s invariably a phantom they’ve conjured in order to dispel–from Goldberg’s mischaracterization of 80s anti-Reaganism to Willingham’s confusion between Moore’s construction of the Ozymandias character and Moore’s actual politics. The size of the nuts it takes for conservatives to sneer “nonsense” at liberalism right now–you guys must have to walk around with a wheelbarrow in front of you.
And finally, I could read Scott Lobdell criticize Alan Moore *all day*. It’s like Mel Sharples complaining about Julia Child. Whereas Jonah criticizing Alan Moore is like one of the Mole Man’s subterranean Moloids badmouthing Reed Richards.
[...] owe National Review’s Jonah Goldberg and Kathryn Jean Lopez steaks and drinks for bringing their thoughts and following to the site on [...]
The graphic of the smiley face button needs to be flipped. The splotch of blood should be in the position of the minute hand of a clock when it’s “five minutes till midnight”, symbolizing the countdown to inevitable mutual nuclear obliteration. The artwork of the graphic novel is chock full of the same “minute hand position” in lots of pictures and situations.
Mr. Willingham: You, sir, are a breath of fresh air. FABLES is the most innovative thing I have read in forever. My wife bought me the entire set of graphic novels for Christmas, and I am loving them.
The thing to remember about Joss Whedon (apart from worshipping at the altar of his talent) is that he is anti-utopian. I mean seriously anti-utopian. If you have not already worked it out from Serenity, list to his interview on the DVD.
He is also an emotionally honest writer. The actions have consequences, that the dark in the human soul is real, are the two guiding principles of his art. (Hence his anti-utopianism)
An extremely talented, emotionally honest, actions-have-consequences, people-have-a-dark-side, anti-utopian liberal clearly steeped in Western culture is going to produce stuff that seems a bit, well, conservative and/or libertarian.
Yeah, because all of those peoples in Eastern Europe that were under the Soviet's heels were just willfully playing along. Go tell a Pole or a Czech that the Cold War was "largely contrived".
I don't know about that. In the very first episode, Giles lays things out for Buffy with "Despite what Biblical myth says…".
Uh huh…and I o9nce had a pprofessor who taught american foreign polkicy. Once every three classes or so he would make referrence to a secret cabal being orchestrated by the catholic church to resurrect the Holy Roman Empire in the United States and that if we wanted to learn more about this secret conspiracy he had a mysterious secret book which he would quietly lend us. He also claimed he had the power to transform himself into a bird and fly from nation to nation. Now why do you suppose you remind me of him?
The other problem, of course, is the ending. I won't spoil anything here, but the basic message that the populace are sheep who need to be lied to for the greater good is a quintesentially liberal conceit.
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