In Defense of the Birthers
by Jeremy D. BoreingI am not a Birther. Which is not to say that I think the question of Barack Obama’s US citizenship has in anyway been adequately answered, it has scarcely even been addressed other than through sneers and accusations of racism (and yes, a Certificate of Live Birth and several conflicting CNN statements…). Rather, I just don’t believe it in anyway likely that Mr. Obama wasn’t born in the country when two Hawaiian newspapers reported at the time that he was.
That said, I find the way that people who do believe that is a possibility are being treated by everyone – from the White House, to the media, to many even in the conservative blogosphere – to be completely unfair. Birthers are treated as kooks and extremists, banned from the comment sections of websites, and given less respect or voice in the media than those detached enough from basic reality to believe that passenger planes didn’t hit the World Trade Center on 9/11 despite, you know, the video of it happening and the missing passenger jets full of people. It begs the question – Is uncertainty about the citizenship of the President of the United States really so offensive? Certainly no one expressed this kind of outrage when John McCain’s eligibility was questioned due to his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. And I say rightly so. Here is why:
The list of qualifications for the presidency as spelled out by our founding fathers is remarkably short. As it turns out, almost anyone can be president, as long as they meet three, and only three, basic criteria. One, that they are a natural born citizen of the United States. Two, that they are at least 35 years old. And three, that they have maintained US residency for at least the last fourteen years. Citizenship, Age, and Residency, and that’s pretty much it. You don’t have to have any particular philosophy (which is good for Mr. Obama, considering he rejects the founding principles of the nation he now leads as “fundamentally flawed”), you don’t have to have any particular experience (which also serves Mr. Obama since his meteoric rise to fame seems to have skipped from local political agitator directly to elected government official without ever landing even for a moment on real-world employment), you don’t even have to like America itself, or Americans (those bitter folk who cling to their guns and their religion, or ‘stupidly’ behaved police officers for example). Amazing really. Our founders enumerated almost no restraints whatsoever on who might serve as president, and yet two of the three requirements they did write into the document that is America, citizenship and residency, make clear that they were very concerned that the president be, well, American. That tells me that a president’s citizenship is an important issue indeed.
Of course, the reason our founders cared about this issue so much is obvious. Citizenship is about identity. It’s about who a person is, and what values govern them. It is about loyalty to one nation over all others, which in the case of this new America wasn’t just about geographic-jingoism at all. To them, America was less a place than an it was an idea – An idea that men should be free from the tyranny and that that government serves best which serves least. Since the founders were trying to grow their new country out of a continent of colonies there-to-fore governed by an entirely different nation, and peopled by settlers from diverse nations around the world, the opportunity for competing interests and loyalties was pretty high. They didn’t want to give the keys to just anyone. No, the President of the United States was to be a citizen of this country, holding up this country’s values and ideals, and loyal to this country alone. The president was not to be a British Citizen, or a French Citizen, or a Global Citizen, but an American Citizen.
And that is what the Birther Movement is really all about. It’s about who we are as a people, and whether or not Barack Obama is one of us. And I am not using the term “us” here as some thoughtless code-word for race as undoubtedly those too infantile in their thinking to even have a discussion about race without shrieking accusation and ad hominem in the first place will bemoan, but to talk about Americans – those people of all ethnicities and backgrounds who are defined, not by the color of our skin, but by our common values and loyalty to the idea that is America. What the Birthers see in Barack Obama is a man whose values and loyalties seem to starkly contrast with those that have so long defined us as Americans, a man dedicated to ideas that are foreign to our own.
We see America as a melting-pot, where a singular culture is born out of many. E Pluribus Unum, we say. Barack Obama sees America as a multi-cultural balancing act where each person’s first loyalty is to those most like themselves in class or race or gender, and where those diverse groups can only co-exist with the guidance of government.
We see America, from the Pilgrims who signed the Mayflower Compact to the Biblical scholars (yes, even Jefferson and Franklin) who birthed the nation, to the spirit of sacrifice and charity that thrives to this very day, not as a nation of Christians (for that freedom is at the deepest core of our common philosophy) but as a Christian nation. A nation conceived in and dedicated to those Biblical principals (as directly expressed by our founders and philosophical forbearers all the way back to John Locke) of liberty, self-government, an independent judiciary, forgiveness of debt, mercy, and honor of history . Barack Obama says, “We are not a Christian nation, at least not anymore…,” and subscribes to a personal religious theology rooted not in grace and love and freedom, but in anger and conquest.
We see America, from our victory over British oppression, to the liberation of Europe from the national socialists and defense of her against the communists, to the defeat of the Taliban and toppling of Saddam Hussein, as a force for good in the world. Barack Obama travels the world apologizing for the very actions we have always called our national pride, always quick to point out what he sees as America’s meddling, but never mentioning the communist elements, oppressive regimes, or extremist agitators that typically drew our sons and daughters into those regions in the first place.
We view our progress, our innovation, our freedom as unparalleled on the stage of history because the system of government we have created empowers men to their own highest achievement rather that seeking to regulate them into conformity with the plans of others. Barack Obama speaks of world orders, more intrusive government, and sees America as merely one color in a vibrant tapestry of nations, no better than any other, and perhaps worse for our arrogance and greed. Instead of celebrating us, he decries us as in need of reform in the image of European governments that aren’t ashamed to call themselves socialist.
We see America as not without fault, but unparalleled in our goodness in all of human history. He sees America as flawed, though perhaps not beyond his own repair.
For all of these reasons and many, many more, Barack Obama seems to be, if not un-American, then at least not-American. Which brings us back to citizenship. The question the Birthers are really trying to ask isn’t ‘is Barack Obama one of us.’ He plainly is not one of us. The real question is ‘why not?’ The Birthers think the answer might be as simple as that he is not an actual citizen of this country. They think he must have been born somewhere else, like Kenya, to have the views and values he expresses. Others think that Mr. Obama was born here, but that perhaps his parents renounced his citizenship while he was living in Indonesia as a child, maybe to get him into certain schools or just because they thought at the time that they would live in Indonesia forever. Maybe that would explain how Mr. Obama paid from his Harvard education, through programs aimed at helping foreign nationals get American educations. Which might explain why none of his collegiate records or papers have ever been released. Which might further explain why there is just so much about his past that has been deliberately withheld from the public, or colorfully rewritten in his artificially sweetened autobiographies. I don’t happen to agree with the Birthers or their legal-citizenship cousins, but my question for the Birthers-haters is – When did it become incumbent on citizens asking reasonable questions about their president’s life, experiences, and even his eligibility to be president, to simply accept the that president at his word? Is it not reasonable to expect an elected official, especially one who has promised unprecedented transparency, to simply reveal the documents relevant to answering the biggest questions about his life? Are we supposed to take all of our government officials at face value now, or just this one? Why does the media, whose job it is to hold the government accountable deride the Birthers and not demand the president simply remove the cloak he has so effectively hidden himself behind? Agree with them or not, the Birthers are just trying to answer the perfectly legitimate questions created by the patent dishonesty about and obscuration of most every aspect of Barack Obama’s life. Who can blame them?
As for those of us who don’t subscribe to the conclusion of the Birthers, the truth is that even worse questions remain for us. After all, if the answer isn’t that Mr. Obama is not a legal American citizen, then the question that remains is how is it that a young man who was born here, was raised here, is from among us could be so foreign in his views of who we are as a people? What weakness in our system has allowed to fester on our own streets beliefs, loyalties, and sensibilities so antithetical to the ones that have so long defined, propelled, and strengthened us? And perhaps even more troubling – If the President of the United States really has nothing at all to hide in the past he has so sought to conceal, then why has he concealed it at all? Is it simply distrust of his fellow citizens, or dislike? Does he think himself so far above the rabble that he is simply beyond having to expose himself to our judgments? Or is it that Barack Obama simply wants to be left alone to define his own life, to continue writing his own narrative unencumbered by fact or evidence or inquiry, leaving history to believe about him whatever he himself conceives or constructs? Is he a leader whose legacy is his own declaration? If so, he may be even less American than the Birthers themselves fear.





Subscribe via RSS
210 Comments
Good word. This basically sums up my position on the birther issue. Frankly, I think there is enough to create reasonable doubt about both arguments, but until it is really settled one way or the other, it doesn't matter – he's still my President until proven otherwise.
hitting the nail on the head for many who couldn't articulate their fears. why isn't he one of us indeed…
That argument could have been easily made without mentioning Birthers, who are the very definition of morons.
All HBO has to do is show the original Birth Certificate instead of a copy of birth and that would shut the Birthers up. But, No, he won't do it.
Besides, he was Joe Santoreo, and just like the last two Democrat Presidents he changed his name. Why ?
About a third of Democrats think Bush knew about 9/11 in advance, and about a third of Republicans think Obama was born in Kenya.
Unfortunately, these are the people who steer both parties.
For someone to have touted how transparent his campaign, and his governing would be, Obama totally discredits himself by the amount of effort he has his lawyers undertake to keep so many of his personal records secret.
So long as these records are kept secret, the waters regarding trust of him stay muddied, and his efforts to have legislation passed that he insists is for our own good is going to continue to be met with resistance.
Obama has yet to prove himself trustworthy on so many facets, the most glaring of these being the promises that he will go through the stimulus bill and strike out all the earmarks; that a set period of time would be allocated to read bills before their being voted on. He has broken these promises, and so many more. Is it any wonder that he has lost what little trust voters had in him at the outset?
Refusing to let his personal information, transcripts, etc, be examined further deepens my distrust of Obama.
Transparency, indeed!
Well said, Mr. Boreing.
…And blah, blah, blah. The birthers and the truthers are both idiots…denying overhwhelming evidence against their supposed theories. Some people believe that the president isn't a natural-born United States citizen. Fine. But when credible and overwhelming evidence that proves otherwise is presented, these fools ought to have stood down. Instead, they continue…and for no discernable reason. Maybe Republicans and conservatives ought to spend a little less time defending these morons, and a little more time winning back the favor of the majority of American citizens with a solid and credible vision for the country. Of course, they're not going to do that…it's much easier to spin nutty conspiracy theories.
I'll grant you that a lot of them come across as pretty far out there in some of their other views. But you're actually quite wrong. The 'birthers' are central to Mr. Boreing's main point, which is metaphysically challenging Obama's citizenship.
Every prominent conservative voice from Rush to Coulter to Bill O'Reilly publicly dismissed the birth rumors long ago.
The MSNBC crowd- Chrissie Matthews et al are the ones keeping the birthers out front. Better to kick around red herrings than confron the Ratings Hell they and their Messiah are sliding into.
Wow. Where do you get off?
First, America as a Christian nation? So what does that say about me, a man raised as a Hindu from day one, but a man born in this country, full of the belief that America has a place for him, believing wholly that there is only one American creed, one that does not mention a Christian God or Jewish God or Muslim God or Hindu God, but one that instead proclaims that all are created equal, and are endowed by that creator with certain unalienable rights, and that amongst those rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Am I not American enough for you? Where do you get off closing off the definition of my country? America as a Christian nation? So what does that say about those men and women of the Jewish faith, the Hindu faith, and the Islamic faith, those that have fought and bled and died for this country's very survival, those tombstones in Arlington that have the crescent moon and the Star of David on them. Show them some damn respect. Realize what they fought for and bled for and died for.
World orders? Jeez, when did Lyndon LaRouche join the party? Is it so un-American to believe in cooperation between nations and the need for alliances in the world? I guess Jefferson and Adams were then wrong to woo the French and the Dutch in 1780, or Wilson was wrong to intervene in World War I, or Roosevelt was wrong to join the Allied Powers. Apology tours? What actions has the President apologized for that we call our national pride? Assassinations in the Congo? The support of the Shah of Iran? Tell me you have shrines to these events in your home and worship them every day. Otherwise, back off and get your facts straight. Chesterton was right–saying my country right or wrong is something no true patriot would ever dream of saying, because it makes you blind, gullible, and liable to be proven an idiot.
What exactly is anti-American about this President? Where does he differ from any other liberal of the last century? Where's all the daylight which justifies calling this man anti-American or foreign and calling the others just liberal or saying that you disagree with them politically or intellectually? Or are all liberals, from Franklin Roosevelt all down, intrinsically anti-American, never mind that liberals gave their lives and souls and blood for this land as much as conservatives have. Or is it the name? At the end of the day, can you just not get down with a brother named Hussein?
It must be awful hard coming to grips with underlying motivations. But the ground is shifting, day by day, and I hope it shifts enough where I never have to walk these streets having people question my allegiance, my patriotism, or my love of country.
I'll try and post it again…
When did it become incumbent on citizens asking reasonable questions about their president’s life, experiences, and even his eligibility to be president, to simply accept the that president at his word?
The amount of spam I have received from birthers and the zeal with which they claim Obama's non-U.S. birth, do not make it seem like they are reasonable, or asking.
Birthers are treated as kooks and extremists, banned from the comment sections of websites, and given less respect or voice in the media than those detached enough from basic reality to believe that passenger planes didn’t hit the World Trade Center on 9/11 despite, you know, the video of it happening and the missing passenger jets full of people.
My experience is that birthers are the truthers of the right wing. I am a Republican, and I don't believe the birthers any more than I do the truthers.
Your comment must be approved by the site admins before it will appear publicly.
bunk.
What a Joke and his comment is the exact, accurate and living proof that here in America “We have too much Pluribus in the Unum.” To quote the great Florence King.
Geez. My comment about your comment being deleted, was just deleted. LOL.
Seriously, Brietbart needs to change service providers. These guys are doing him no favors at all.
Now we are seeing ^ what true astrofuring looks like. Were you hired from a Craigslist ad?
So why won't The One release his actual birth certificate? It is a legitimate question. To fight tooth and nail from releasing a trivial document speaks volumes. Where's there smoke, there's fire.
Well that was polite. Where exactly would you like me to go? Oops, I forgot. I'm in loony land.
God bless the echo chambers of the left and the right, drowning out reason and embracing madness. After eight years of wacko liberals who yelled Bush knew about 9/11, now we get wacko conservatives screaming about birth certificates and death panels. No wonder David Brooks is still searching for dignity.
Great piece, Jeremy.
It should also be noted that Obama said in a radio interview that our Constitution is "flawed because it does not account for wealth redistribution."
And during his formative years, Obama sat at the feet of Frank Marshal Davis, a known Communist, and listened to his teachings up until he left for college. That's all in Obama's book "Dreams Of My Father."
This president has NO idea of what made this country great, or its unique place in history. That's why he dictates, that's why he pushes legislation that isn't even Constitutional, and that's why dictators around the world love him so much.
They were a necessity due to how he chose to structure his argument, true. But there is something fundamentally alien about Obama that can be addressed in other ways. Birthers are morons. And it isn't because they've manufactured something conspiratorial. The way Obama and company conduct themselves easily lends itself to all manner of suspicions.
The problem is that he won an election, and anyone with a brain (and an ounce of love for their country) understands how to better choose their battles and that obsessing over a basic qualification for office after the fact amounts to seeking a coup of sorts. It is creepy and not all all helpful to the sane people who are working hard to discredit and defeat Obama based on his horrid ambitions.
The birthers aren't morons because they're wrong, they're morons because they serve no useful purpose.
"What exactly is anti-American about this President? Where does he differ from any other liberal of the last century?"
Well, the most "anti-American" thing I can think of is the fact that he doesn't differ in any important respect from "any other liberal of the last century". But that's just off the top of my head.
Otherwise, for a Hindu, you sound really angry. As to the Americans who can't tell the difference between a rumal and a shamagh, those I apologize for.
Do Hindus get high blood pressure?
Maybe I'm thinking of Buddhists…
Moondance talks a big game but doesn’t name any of all the “…credible and overwhelming evidence that proves otherwise is presented…”
All those “…nutty conspiracy theories.” will easily be debunked if Obama and his administration will address the issue and present the evidence required that qualifies him to sit in the Oval Office instead of spending hundred of thousands of bucks lawyering up to the hilt and stonewalling the birther’s legal efforts.
By the way, I don't disagree with your basic premise. I was defending Mr. Boreing's article from a literary perspective. The 'birthers' may be idiots, but for Mr. Boreing's purpose they were useful idiots, at least in this case.
Obama has nothing to gain from releasing his birth certificate. He's already president and he can keep the most fervent of his detractors busy worrying about it instead of noticing what he is doing to the country. All while his media arm labels them as kooks, and by association all his other opponents. It is a classic case of misdirection and demonization.
For Mr. "What a joke", first let me say that I do not question your patriotism, nor anything else about you, and neither did the author. However, if you do not believe that being Hindu puts you in a small minority of this country, then you are fooling yourself. Also, if you do not believe that this nation was founded by Christians with the intent that it be run by Christians, you are not a student of history. I would say first, do some study, then understand the fact that this country was founded by Christians with the full intent that anyone at any time can practice whatever religion they wish (which was unique at the time).
tcanny has a good point.
Now, to the author of this piece, I absolutely agree with your premise. I am not a "birther" per se, but I do wonder why the POTUS has allowed this silliness to get out of hand, and why his background is being kept so secret by those around him. Frankly, simply producing the document will quell this entire debate and we could all get back to the work at hand. I am not a fan of our current POTUS, neither was I a fan of the last one. However, Mr. Obama's secretive nature leads me to the conclusion that there is nothing that I can believe about him. He's an empty suit in my opinion, and the true power brokers are pulling the strings.
"The problem is that he won an election, and anyone with a brain (and an ounce of love for their country) understands how to better choose their battles and that obsessing over a basic qualification for office after the fact amounts to seeking a coup of sorts"
No – the real problem is that us "morons" have been asking the same questions since last March, before he even got the nomination. The problem is that us "Morons" have been wondering why the media has not done a damn thing to prove one way or the other on ANY of the questions. The problem is that us "Morons" wonder why if there is no fire, where is all the damn smoke coming from.
Not only that, but those of us who HAVE been paying attention since day one heartily object to the ill-informed abuse hurled our way from ignorant jack*sses who were busy obsessing over dead blonde bimbos and american idol when we were screaming "PROVE he is even eligible, before treating him like he already won and is running for his third term!"
George, get off my site, you idiot liberal troll.
Yeah. I suppose I could have better expressed my visceral displeasure over giving these loons even a nuanced defense.
Every prominent conservative voice from Rush to Coulter to Bill O'Reilly publicly dismissed the birth rumors long ago.
Please inform your congressmen.
If being a birther isn't the definition of a moron then being a birther who thinks I'm a liberal troll after reading my second comment certainly is. Every minute you waste on this crap is not only a lost opportunity to convince someone in your trailer park that Obamacare will be a disaster but it also gives the left ample fodder for ridiculing and diminishing the efforts of the rest of us. Idiots like yourself make the left's lies about protests and opposition on the right much easier to sell. You're their boogeyman and you're, sadly, not smart enough to see it.
"This nation was founded by Christians with the intent that it be run by Christians."
Um, no. Not even close.
This nation was founded by people who were a mix of Christians and Deists, and they quite plainly did not label America as a "Christian nation." They were explicit about absolutely every power that was granted to the federal government. If they wanted to label the nation as "Christian," they would have done just that.
Do you really want to hear all the quotes from many of our well-known Founders that disparage organized religion?
"If you do not believe that this nation was founded by Christians with the intent that it be run by Christians, you are not a student of history."
Um, no. Not even close.
This nation was founded by people who were a mix of Christians and Deists, and they quite plainly did not label America as a "Christian nation." They were explicit about absolutely every power that was granted to the federal government. If they wanted to label the nation as "Christian," they would have done just that.
Do you really want to hear all the quotes from many of our well-known Founders that disparage organized religion?
Would you deny that "India is a Hindu" nation because of a Jew who lives there?
Substance McGravitas' comment settles the whole issue once and for all. Silly us. We can rest easy now. We had it in front of our noses all along and couldn’t see it. Thanks ‘Subs’
I've always figured it was gonna show that Momma Hippie wasn't married to Kenyan Commie.
Then the most interesting thing becomes that Hawaiin officials have claimed to have viewed the long form.
Are they outright lying to the public?
This commentary is actually far more vile than the ludicrous theories propounded by the birthers. Because the author is claiming that the only people who have the right to call themselves Americans, who have the right to run for and be elected to office, are those who follow his own political beliefs. No matter that a majority of the country chose Obama to lead — apparently we in the majority deserve no say in how this country runs. Only right-wingers are allowed to set policy, and to choose the path this nation will go down.
Nancy Pelosi serves no useful purpose. Is she a moron too? How about Ryan Seacrest?
Where are your numbers coming from? Those sound wrong.
hear, hear, struggling to think of something to add, what he said, well put sir…
HBO is a network.
Barack Obama was born "Barry Soetoro". I don't know if you meant Joe Satriani, Rick Santorum or "Jose Santeria", the religious equivalent of Santa Claus to the adherents of Santeria, who brings good little boys and girls a beheaded chicken and some herbs.
What were Bill Clinton's and Jimmy Carter's birthnames?
Na, government employees never lie to you, just to me. Especially with such an important document. Is there a doctor listed? Is there a hospital listed? We will never know, because it is criminal to tell what they know. It doesn't matter. In 2010 the congress will require that these documents be brought to life, and Obama will veto it. In 2012 the new president will sign it into law, and Obama's lawyers will argue ex post facto. The Supreme Court will finally allow it in 2014, and Obama will be stripped of his retirement. "You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." – P.T. Barnum
Moonbat, why won't your "open and transparent" President release his college transcripts? Forgetting the issue of the birth certificate, what doesn't he want us to see from Columbia? That he applied as an Indonesian citizen in order to get in, because he wouldn't have made it applying as an American?
OK…and? If there is any reason why Obama has not granted permission to release the "real" birth certificate it's that the Birthers and their Republican enablers tar conservatives as lunatics more interested in conspiracy theories than fighting for real ideas.
Oh putting it that way … it's still seems kind of stupid. As for the president, I'm more American and I'm a Canadian with an American mother. Using this logic however, there are many "aliens" living among you who believe exactly what the president believes. Any one could theoretically become president because they match the three requirements. The real question becomes how the heck did such an "un"-American and such obvious un-Americanism slip past the media and the public and get elected? Birth certificates won't answer that question even if it's merely rhetorical.
Not only the birth certificate,what about college transcripts and thesis ?
Hewould not show them because he would not get elected
If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck and has feathers it must be a duck.
The point is he is more radical than he let on.
Hussein Obama,Chavez,Castro,peas in a pod,maybe seperated at birth
Admittedly, I pulled them from my rear.
It's probably less than a third, but these folks are the loudest. You've got the crazy Bush-haters vs. the crazy Obama-haters, and there's no denying these are the people who are the most vocal in both parties.
Admittedly, I pulled them from my rear. ; )
It's probably less than a third, but these folks are the loudest. You've got the crazy Bush-haters vs. the crazy Obama-haters, and there's no denying these are the people who are the most vocal in both parties.
Admittedly, I pulled them from my rear.
It's probably less than a third, but these folks are the loudest. You've got the crazy Bush-haters vs. the crazy Obama-haters, and there's no denying these are the people who are the most vocal in both parties.
Admittedly, I pulled them from my rear.
It's probably less than a third, but these folks are the loudest, and that gives them the appearance of greater numbers. You've got the crazy Bush-haters vs. the crazy Obama-haters, and there's no denying these are the people who are the most vocal in both parties.
Admittedly, I pulled them from my rear.
It's probably less than a third, but these folks are the loudest, and that gives them the appearance of greater numbers. You've got the crazy Bush-haters versus the crazy Obama-haters, and there's no denying these are the people who are the most vocal in both parties.
America was founded upon Judeo-Christian principles. That is a FACT. You can be a Hindu, and no one "gives" you that right- that is your inalienable, God-given right, even if you don't beleive in God or you believe in a hundred gods. This country establishes no state religion. (Having established no state religion is not the same as having NO religion. We may respect and pay homage to our heritage. The ACLU wants NO religion except for a "religion" that has "the state" as its head.) As far as Obama being anti- American, Americans value individual liberties, and being able to make decisions about their lives and happiness for themselves. Americans deeply resent kings, and don't want to be ordered around by princes (the house) and kings (the senate). Bailing out business that should just fail is intrinsically "anti-American" in that America was made great by capitalism. Socialism is anathema to us. No one questions YOUR allegiance, but we do question the motives of a man who tells dissenters to "sit down and shut up"; whose answer to challenges from opponents is "I won", and who is condescending and devisive whenever he speaks.
Yes to both, and that goes triple for Paula Abduh…
Excellent observations. It really is not the birth certificate alone. The overall feeling is that something is being hidden since no grade school, college or other records were ever released. Some people believe that he claimed a foreign student scholarship for college.
Why weren't the Democrats that demanded McCain's Birthcertificate Morons? Inquiring minds would like to know?
If you're wondering what the ugly, pinched face of America looks like, just turn on the television, open a newspaper or fire up your laptop.
Public mayhem, scare-mongering, and even a warning from the 2008 Republican vice presidential nominee about a fictitious "death panel" are, apparently, what constitutes thoughtful discourse about health care coming from the darker corners of American conservatism. . .
Their [birther] dreams of deporting Mr. Obama dashed, kooky conservatives have turned to Plan B: Shouting that the president's health care proposal amounts to socialism. No, wait, make that fascism: At health care town halls and other public events, we've seen posters of Mr. Obama with a Hitler mustache and of a child in a stroller holding a sign warning of impending fascism.
Socialism, fascism — whatever, same diff. It speaks to the incoherence of these protesters that they can't distinguish the two. Yet, so long as the comparison makes the president sound evil, dastardly and un-American, such complications hardly seem to trouble them. . .
(continued…)
While I also agree it is unlikely Obama was born in Kenya, there are a few logical problems with his "story". Personally I think the secrecy of Obama's records (and it isn't just the Birth Certificate…MANY records are unreleased) has to do with SOMETHING ELSE that contradicts he narrative put forth in books and in the public consciousness. What is it? I have no idea.
To say Obama has a very unusual background is an understatement, and the fact that he simply refuses to release many, many records that are commonly released, leads me to guess that he is protecting his published narrative in some fashion. Perhaps it is simply embellishment, or perhaps it is serious enough to enter the level of fiction vs non-fiction.
Whether one thinks birth is an issue, even the biggest Obama supporter has to admit there must be a reason so many records are unavailable. The longer this goes on, the more the Passport Breach of 2008 looks more and more curious. This is what feeds Conspiracy Theories. The question is does Obama's team have so much creativity that they are creating an intentional red herring to waste resources, or are they hiding something ELSE in plain sight? Axelrod, Morris, Carville and Rove have never been as clever as they are given credit for. Opponents tend to turn these people into supermen of obfuscation and misdirection. I can't believe it is simply a "strategy".
The thing is, what could possibly be embarrassing enough to hide to this degree? Bush, Gore and Kerry were average at best students…that didn't really "mean" anything. The only logical guess I can come up with is inconsistencies with his narrative (something other than birthplace)…but then…why lie about it in the first place?
The entire thing is quite a puzzle.
I agree with you essential point, but you should really get your facts straight on the details of the birth certificate issue itself, because they're important and there's been so much obfuscation about it. He has not released a "Certificate of Live Birth." Go to factcheck.org and you'll see that the document is entitled, "Certification of Live Birth". There is such a thing as a Certificate of Live Birth in Hawaii, it was the document that was created on or about the day of his birth, the document that bears the name of the hospital and the signatures of his parents and the doctor. This is the document that has not been released, and that remains the source of all of the hoopla.
The distinction is important because the Certification of Live Birth was created in 2007 from the records then on file. Obviously, there are any number of ways that the information on file in 2007 could differ from the original, and that is why we'll never know for sure until we see the original.
It's my opinion that his mother did have him abroad, and that she sent in his birth registration by mail claiming that he was born in Hawaii so that he would be a U.S. citizen (smart lady it turns out). The birth announcements in the newspapers were generated from that. All else flows from there. Obama does not want to release the original birth certificate because if it consists of nothing more than his mother's attestation via mail, it will raise more questions than it will answer, and the circus will continue, but at an even higher level.
President Obama was legally elected our President. Joe Biden is next in line. Do we really want to go there?
Except for the fact that you are commenting on a conservative blog where a conservative is still kicking this around. Your theory might be valid were it not attached to this column. And this column is not written by MSNBC.
While I'd argue against many of your points, which I won't go into here, I adamantly agree that you are an American. And you are correct, no one should try to tell you different, especially based solely upon your chosen religion. I am a Christian. I have nothing but the utmost respect for your religion, culture, and perspective. I think many Americans, including myself, could learn much from listening to your thoughts and opinions of our country. What your post clearly portrays is you are indeed a real American. You understand your roots, and the tenants of this great country. However, I would argue that the American creed does mention a Christian God, although I wouldn't expect you to like it. Even I question what good it does to have God in our pledge and in our Constitution. Not the least of which what it does to people like yourself when you read your country's founding documents and they mention a religion and a God different from your own. I can't understand how that must feel.
I don't think the author meant to imply you are less of an American because you are Hindu and not Christian. I can understand your anger if you indeed implied such a meaning. What I'd like to believe the author is implying is the same our founding fathers implied when they included God in the founding documents/creed of our country. The founding fathers didn't mention a Christian God to ensure all American's are Christians, but to further the universal ideals that this country was founded upon and share with the Christian religion, i.e.; Love thy neighbor as thyself, respect your parents, don't steal, don't kill, etc. Many of these ideals are shared with the Hindu faith I believe, correct me if I am wrong. However, I also do not believe we must invoke God, or anything else, to keep to those ideals. We must teach them to our children and set an example for all.
This country was founded by individuals who were persecuted for their religious beliefs. Rather than set up their own religious tyranny, these founding Americans believed in religious tolerance. Just because we don't agree on our religion doesn't mean we can't live in harmony and respect each other.
And I fervently agree that the men and women that have died for our country deserve the utmost respect, admiration, and thanks for the sacrifice they made for their country and for me. Regardless of religion. However, to take the author to task for such a thing is misdirected and not implied in the article in my opinion.
When I read your post it gives me hope. The diversity of thought, opinion, and yes even religion, you bring to our country indeed makes us stronger. Our opinions diverge on many subjects, but your opinions are obviously well thought out. You are definitely educated when it comes to your country, its history, and its direction. If every American did as you have done and made their own opinions based upon personal research and education, rather than what they are told, we would be a stronger nation as a whole. Anyone who tells you different is the one that needs a lesson on what America is really all about.
I would take him over Hussein Obama anyday
Spot on. I too am disgusted by the scorn for birthers by the right. They cry and wail when Obama hides anything else, but when it comes to his birth certificate – or any record from his past – they call everyone hunting for it a crazy idiot. What insane Pelosi juice are they drinking? We want the books opened on Obama. Everything from birth to Rezko. Immediately. And anyone who calls us names be damned.
Excellent!
How is it that he was able to take this job without producing a birth certificate when it is a requirement to be a natural born citizen? Shouldn't everyone who runs for president be required to provide proof that they are eligible before they even run?
Biden reminds me of the 3 stooges all rolled into one, but I must say he can be entertaining.
You've obvsiously never served your country or worked in a position requiring a security clearance. If you had you would know what a background investigation is and who gets them. Obama had his done long before the election. Had there been any inconsistency or lack of documentation then it would have come out then. It didn't. You're wrong. And anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. I don't blame him for ignoring the screaming lunatics who think this "issue" has any merit.
Only republicans
get with the program
/sarc sort of
"Agree with them or not, the Birthers are just trying to answer the perfectly legitimate questions created by the patent dishonesty about and obscuration of most every aspect of Barack Obama’s life."
I think this statement is closer to the truth. Barry probably doesn't want his birth certificate released because his name is Soetoro on it. Which is bad for name recognition, and bad publicity during the campaign and brings up questions about whether his parents were married when he was born.
His transcripts/essays probably haven't been released because his grades were no good, or he wrote childish and racist rants like his wife. I think he is a citizen and all the secrecy is just a political move to keep people from recognizing that he is just a flawed human who doesn't hold the same values as the rest of us.
Why won't he allow us to know the Hospital where he was born, so a plaque could be hung in their hallowed halls? Why won't he allow us to know the name of the doctor who delivered America's first Black President? What an honor, and yet he remains nameless. . . . Too much unknown history in Obama's past for there to not be something not right about him. Birthers are Patriots.
If you haven't already, read "principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions" , a paper published in the Lancet and co-authored by Ezekiel Emanuel, Rahm's brother and an advisor on White House health care policy. "Death panels" may be hyperbole, but the "complete lives system" is designed to give "attenuated care" to those younger than 10 and those older than 50. Listen to this, in the "objections" section:____"Unlike allcation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination
So first, yes, absolutely I would deny it. I think a person who characterizes India as a Hindu nation misses the point of India, just as the person who characterizes the United States as a Christian nation misses the point of America. Is the majority of this nation Christian? Of course, and I don't dispute that for a moment–but to call it a Christian nation is to say something else. It is implicitly to state that one of the prerequisites to being a "true American" is to be Christian. As I tried to outline above, in my view, there is only one true "religious belief" of America, and is it that summed up by Jefferson in the first two paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence. That is our creed, our religion, our purpose as a nation. It is the belief that you are at birth and through life indisputably free, that your destiny is not written for you, but it is of your own choosing, that you have the right to self-government, to have a public identity, and to liberty in all of its glory. That you have choice, choice in belief, thought, religion, and ideology. We have not always abided by that faith, and millions gave their blood a century and a half ago to perfect an imperfect union, a process that did not end then, but endures, but that is the ideal, the goal, the possibility of America. It is partially why so many, liberal AND conservative, were for one night in awe last fall, because in no other country are the stories of Barack Obama and Bobby Jindal, Ronald Reagan and Harry Truman, possible.
As General Powell said during the brouhaha over the President's religion last fall, the true answer is that the President is a Christian, but the really correct answer is "why does it matter? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in America? Can a Muslim not be President?" The answer by creed must be "of course he or she can be President, and of course there is nothing wrong with being a Muslim,, because there is no religious bar to being an American."
I should note that a number of comments below have been generous with their thought, respectful, and kind. Regardless of ideological differences, I thank you for your courtesy.
"The birthers aren't morons because they're wrong, they're morons because they serve no useful purpose"
They may serve a purpose. I read an article, I believe at Townhall, suggesting that Barry may have lied about not being an Indonesian citizen on his Bar exam application. This could likely be the reason the BC is tucked away. While I agree that there are enough evidence to support the Hawaii birth, the lie on the application could lead to more exposure of his transcripts, etc, which are also not released.
I don't care what someone's last name, first name or religion is. I care about ONE THING in a Presidential candidate, and that is his/her ability and commitment to DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION. Why should I give a rat's about his parents' marital staus? I don't!!
Right now this President is overstepping his bounds by trying to impose a health care system on the people that will bankrupt the country, lead to more govt intrusion and poorer levels of care. It is NOT the government's business to get into health care.
Right, since we pay for this boon-doggle that is Washington. You’re a majority in the 57the state.
Right, since we pay for this boon-doggle that is Washington. You’re a majority in the 57th state.
Right, since we pay for this boon-doggle that is Washington. You’re a majority in the 57th state.
There are too many inconsistancies in Obama's records to think that he is actually a natural born U.S. citizen. Whay doesn't Barry Soetero Obama just release the birth certificate and clear up all doubt? Also, a certified Kenyan Obama 1961 birth certificate has just surfaced as well. So what's up, Obama? If you are a natual born citizen, did you commit fraud then to get U.S. student aid? If that is the case, Obama cannot legally be President as he is a felon, obstructing justice and needs to be prosecuted to the extent of federal law.
Let's talk about those Birth Announcements in the two newspapers shall we? Everyone uses those as Absolute proof except for two slight problems. The Obamas never lived at the address list in the ads. That address was occupied from the late 50s to the early Seventies by another couple. This was verified from real estate records. Besides why would they live so far away from where they went to school when Obama Sr. kept an apartment much closer until he left for Harvard in 1962. Even though his wife went to school in Washington two weeks after Obama's birth. The other thing is no one ever verified that those ads actually came from the papers. They just appeared one day on the internet and everyone grabbed them as real. They actually track back to a Hillary Supporter. Plus, why do they both say the same exact thing? Word for Word??? Like a copy and paste? Maybe someone should actually check the microfilm??? You think?
I don't know if his Birth Certificate is legit or not both sides have good points but where's there's smoke there's usually fire. This should be reported to whitehouse.gov It all sounds very FISHY to me.
We'll see!
Is being a Birther any more irrational than believing the State is our best friend, and that the best way to promote prosperity is to increase taxes? I think not.
I thank you for your generosity. Above, I replied indirectly to a few points you mentioned, but your insights deserve a few words. You are absolutely right that the values you cite are within Christianity, but those same values are within virtually all religions and definitions of public morality. I would argue that having three branches of government or a Bill of Rights or declaring independence from a despotic king are not inherently Christian or non-Christian. The poster above astute notes that a number of founders were Deists and had complicated relationships with religion. The same can be said of Lincoln, whose own relationship with God shifted radically during his life and was awakened particularly during the war, when the burdens of those times weighed heavily on the great man.
I think my response to the piece was the sense that in some way, the President in un-American because of what he believes. That kind of ideological definition of an American was what I reacted to so strongly. Someone below made the point far better than I could, but here's a few words to expand that a bit.
I don't doubt the patriotism of my conservative colleagues, even those I vehemently disagreed with, including our last President. I don't doubt their motivations, their love of country, or their status as Americans. I merely disagreed with their course of actions and believed it was wrong. I think it is entirely legitimate to question this President on his financial policy, his policies towards the auto industry, the health care plan, and the like, and we can have valid policy disagreements on whether these are the best courses for our nation. But to call him un-American, or to smear his identity or to allege that he is a traitor or alien or some kind of foreign creature is, frankly, contemptible.
For 224 years, there have been patriotic liberals and patriotic conservatives, men and women who wanted nothing but the best for this country, but merely differed in how to achieve it. I think the President, just like former President Bush, both want nothing but the best for this nation, just as I hope both you and I do. We just differ in how to achieve that. Political disagreements are part of our history, from Adams and Jefferson on down. Surely that doesn't justify name-calling, does it?
The Hawaiian newspapers ads were less meaningful than the certification of live birth because they were automatically generated by the issuance of that document. So it means nothing what those newspapers reported. Barry's own grandmother said that he was born in Kenya. She said , “Barack, Jr. was born in Mombasa, Kenya and I was present during his birth.” Affidavit of Reverend Kweli Shuhubia, “Barack Hussein Obama, Jr., the United States Presidential candidate, was born in Mombosa Kenya, “Kenyan Officials with the Provincial Civil Registrar stated there were records of Ann Dunham giving birth to Barack Hussein Obama, III in Mombassa, Kenya on August 4, 1961, and confirmed the birthing records of Barack H. Obama, Jr. and his mother were present, however, the file on Barack H. Obama, Jr. was classified and profiled. The Official explained Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. birth in Kenya is top secret.” Affidavit of Bishop Ron McRae, “US Senator Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim and not a Christian, and he was born in Mombasa, Kenya and not in the State of Hawaii”
Yes, crazy people tend to make great six o'clock news. BUT…
Consider how about a dozen "vocal" people at the roadside in Crawford TX got nightly coverage on several different networks for months, and compare that to the type and amount of coverage hundreds of thousands of Americans are getting as they vocalize their opposition to single-payer health care. Consider how the WTO protestors (who rioted and destroyed property) were treated in the media versus the treatment the Tax-Day Tea Party folks got.
Don't make the mistake of painting both sides as equally dirty, equally worth blame. Obama did that in the Gates/Crowley crime by painting the race-baiter and the cop with the same "cooler heads should have prevailed" brush. No. One side is definitely more unhinged, more biased, more partisan and more irresponsible than the other.
And the transparency thing he promised…
Also, you'd think I could do math. That should read 234 years. My mistake on somehow leaving out the Revolution and Constitutional Convention.
Indonesian School Record, “Name of School: Fransiskus Assisi School, Name: Barry Soetoro, Citizenship: Indonesian, Name of Parent: Lolo Soetoro, M.A. The school records indicate that Barack Obama Jr. aka Barry Soetoro attended first grade in Indonesia and that he was born in Honolulu Hawaii on 08-04-1961 and his father is Lolo Soetoro.In addition to the above affidavits and questions raised, the Kenyan Ambassador himself said on The Mike in The Morning Show on WRIF in Detroit, Michigan that Obama was born in Kenya.Why has he paid over a million in legal fees to hide all his records, not just some? Why are we not allowed to see any of Obama’s college records, passport records or birth records? Could it be that Obama received foreign student money from Indonesia or other foreign places paying his way through college? Why hide your records? We know that Obama is a liar, we know he is radical, and he has an unreliable past. How hard would it be to conclude that he is not natural born? I say that not being a birther makes less sense than being one. Overwhelimg evidence is present to show he is not qualified to be president.
Back on subject, riddle me this. Why won't Obama just release his public records including his birth certificate? Every president before him did including Bush and Clinton. I think the 'Where there is smoke.." saying applies here and the 'birthers' have some very valid points to ponder. This isn't a conspiracy theory, rather it is a very well documented ACTUAL conspiracy by Obama and his handlers to hide pertinant information from the voting public. Case in point, it is also well documented that Obama has spent close to a million dollars in legal fees to keep these records hidden.
How can Mr. Boering write such a thoughtful and intelligent analysis of the questions raised by Obama's lack of a birth certificate….yet cluelessly and incredulously state that he believes Obama was born in Hawaii because two local newspapers published his birth announcement? HUH?!
Why is it so difficult to imagine that Obama's proud grandparents probably put the birth announcement (which did NOT state a place of birth) in the local paper(s) to herald the impending arrival of their daughter and new grandson in Hawaii? This, with the alternate explanation given by reliable sources, that the birth announcement was "automatically triggered" by the REGISTRATION of live birth allowed by Hawaiian citizens for their children born elsewhere seems very likely to explain the legally insignificant "birth announcements" in the local paper. These announcements are in fact irrelevant to the question of where Obama was born!
Only someone completely paranoid would read this article and understand it to convey such a message!
** ……….and even a warning from the 2008 Republican vice presidential nominee about a fictitious "death panel" **
As soon as a committee is set up to determine whether a particular patient is worth the cost of the care required to sustain life, a 'death panel' has been created.
I choose NOT to have my health care or that of my family left to the capriciousness of some government bureaucrat, nor do I intend to be forced in such a situation by a heavy-handed Obama administration.
After I passed my job interview and was hired, I had to take a drug test. If a birth certificate was also required, you can bet I wouldn't have my job if I hadn't produced it. So I dunno, Justice Roberts swore him in. How about, "Oh hey Barack, what'dyasay we get those pesky requirements out of the way? I need your birth certificate, the past 14 years of tax returns (to make sure you lived here), and both of those will take of the age thing. … Oh you left it in your other suit? Ok, we'll wait."
Go to the WoldNetDaily website for evidence that the fake Hawaiian birth certificate posted on Factcheck.org (an Annenburg website, with ties to Obama) has been determined a fake by the Globe. Prior to this, one or two document experts retained by Phil Berg, Esq. (Obamacrimes.com) determined that this "document" was nothing but an internet creation, never having existed at all in real life!
Biden as president till 2012 would be a better choice than keeping the usurper-in-chief till then, if only because Biden doesn't hate the US and its citizens, and has no plans for making himself into El Presidente of the US…or worse, the world.
Natural Born Citizen = Both Parents are U. S. Citizens and was Born in the U.S. mainland. US Constitution
Art. II, Sec. 1, Cl. 5 U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325 (1939)
I think Birthers should be treated with exactly as much seriousness as the 911-Truthers: None.
I think Birthers should be treated with exactly as much seriousness as the 911-Truthers: None.
My guess is because the longer it takes to get the certificates out the longer the Birthers have to make all the rest of us conservatives look like idiots.
They were. Being a moron has nothing to do with political affiliations.
Three hours later and my comment was never posted. Lame.
You might want to actually check the differences between Hawaii's "Certification of Live Birth", which is what has been provided, and Hawaii's "Certificate of Live Birth". But then that might be too much like work.
The questions won’t go away until obama releases his hidden records. All he has to do is make the following official public statement,
"I Barack Obama authorize the State of Hawaii to release and make public all of my records on file."
That's it. Issue over. But he won't because he's a fraud!! Obama knows that millions of citizens want to see it yet he continues to hide it. What and why is he hiding?
And maybe more disturbing is why don't BHO's supporters want to know the whole truth, especially since there's a reward of $100,000 for proof that Obama is a "natural born" citizen of the United States? The answer is that Obama’s very own supporters also know he’s a fraud!
OBAMA, STOP HIDING. SHOW US YOUR LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND OTHER RECORDS!!!!!
When the birther premise first came out, I was very interested. I'd rather learn that Obama was ineligible for the Presidency than to get a free new Mercedes Benz. When I checked the 'evidence', I found a farrago of mis-statements, non-germane statements about French theories of natural law dating from the eighteenth century, and outright lies. On every point, even as to what constituted being a native born citizen, the birthers were simply and unequivocally wrong. The State of Hawaii has issued their birth certificate (COLB), which contains information identical to that issued to me and all of my children, that says he was born here. Two high state officials have confirmed this. To the birthers, this only proves that the conspiracy is truly enormous.
Unfortunately, it is a typical Big Conspiracy farce. Anyone who points this out is denounced as a secret liberal, including Ann Coulter, Hannity, Rush, and all the conservative pundits. As such, it is unhealthy for both the individual who is enthralled by it and for the conservative movement in general. It is destructive.
I believe he should just show his long-form birth certificate and be done with it. But I have a question. Wouldn't there be a record of his mother traveling to and from Kenya around the time of his birth? After all, if he was born in Kenya wouldn't his mother need to have been there too?
Actually, where there's smoke, there's usually a smoke machine.
I have actually read Wong Kim Ark. Even though both his parents were not American citizens, the fact that he was born here made him one and he was admitted to the United States. It says the opposite of what birthers claim. Furthermore, only one parent has to be a citizen if he was born elsewhere, as was my stepbrother. Bobby Jindal is eligible to be POTUS, and neither of his parents were citizens when he was born here. George Romney was eligible to be President and he was born of American citizens in Mexico City. I could give hundreds of other examples. Birthers are with all due respect simply wrong when they state that both parents need to be citizens and/or that the person needs to be born here. Don't believe me. Consult any reputable immigration lawyer.
I did. The COLB is what Hawaii issues when you ask them for a birth certificate. IT contains the identical information to what my own and my children's birth certificates from other states contains.
Only in Holly-Weird.
The Certification of Live Birth is also issued by Hawaii for children born OUTSIDE of Hawaii to a Hawaiian resident who asks for one. Or at least it was at the time Osama was born.
Great Article Jeremy! Thanks to Drudge for linking to it so I can enjoy some of the other articles you have written!
I may not "officially" be a "Birther" but WHERE IS THE TRANSPARENCY WE HEARD SO MUCH ABOUT DURING THE CAMPAIGN? If Cousin Barry (Cheney's cousin admittedly) has nothing to hide… Why hide. Please release the info sir and put this issue to bed. While your at it… Please release the surveillance footage of Flight 77 hitting the pentagon. (Not a "conspiracy" just a question. We have seen the WTC footage a million times… to why not show the Pentagon footage? Why confiscate it, and keep it secret?)
The other thing is that I resent being called an America hating racist right wing extremist every time I question authority. (I endorsed Cynthia McKinney for Prez.) For the last eight years I have been called an America hating Liberal for opposing Bush and Cheney as they all but wiped their asses with our US Constitution.
I am the same person, and without people like me, Cheney or Jeb Bush might now be sitting in the White House instead of their cousin.
MSMBC GE IS THE NEW FAUX NEWS. It is called political realignment, and many of us predicted this polar shift more than a year ago. TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT!
No it does. Please tel that to Nancy Pelosi- who calls dissenters Un-American.
And the difference between Holly-Weird and Washington would be what, exactly? Washington is Hollywood for ugly people.
True, but as the Hawaiian DOH has clearly stated, such a certificate would still contain an accurate place of birth, "If you were born in Bali, for example, you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali," Janice Okubo, the director of communications for the state Department of Health, told the Washington Independent's David Weigel recently. "You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate."
The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society connot exist and petutate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those chilren naturally follow the condition of their father's, and succeed to all their rights.
John Jay to George Washington.. Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American Army shall not be given to nor devlolve on, any but a natural born citizen. This explains why I was taught both parents must be citizens. unlike Soetoro having 2 Foreign Fathers. I rest my case.
Amen, brother. Look at the way the birthers work– they call everyone who thinks they are plain wrong on simple facts to be liberal plants. You're three points down because you disagree with them. They know ZERO about actual immigration and citizenship law, misquote SCOTUS decisions, and muddy the water for people who are against Obama for rational reasons.
Why doesn't he show a long form certificate? Because none of the birthers would believe him if he did. Already they call the Hawaiian State officials who say he was born here liars. Why would they believe any certificate they would issue? And Obama loves this. It makes his opponents look like loons. He couldn't buy that for all the money in Illinois.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. ""If you were born in Bali, for example, you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali," Janice Okubo, the director of communications for the state Department of Health, told the Washington Independent's David Weigel recently. "You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate."
Hawaiian State officials have stated twice now that they won't issue COLBs that contain a false place of birth. It's that simple. You're entitled to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Since the birthers won't believe the COLB and the Hawaiian government's statement supporting this, why would they believe the so-called 'long form' birth certificate? IF they're lying already, a phony birth certificate should be easy.
Actually, Obama would be a natural-born citizen even if he was born in Kenya. George Romney, who ran for the nomination, was born in Mexico City, and John McCain was born in Panama. You only have to have one parent who is a citizen to have natural-born citizenship regardless of where you were born. My stepbrother was born overseas of an American citizen mother and a foreign father, and he is a natural-born citizen. His daughters were both born overseas, and they are natural-born citizens. Bobby Jindal was born in America of foreign citizens, and he is a natural-born citizen. The list is endless. Arguments to the contrary would be more persuasive if they didn't directly counter American immigration law. Don't believe me? Get a good immigration lawyer and see that I'm right.
Answer: why release them? Keep people talking about something that will never get answered and never get investigated. Either way, Obama wins – people get obsessed about something that isn't an issue, and the press and pop-culture pundits get to mock them derisively, taking down the entire "opposition" in the process. Whether or not the claims of the Birthers are correct is irrelevant.
Personally, I think he probably was born a citizen. The only *possible* citizenship issue, in my opinion, is the issue with whether or not he changed citizenship in Indonesia. Simply being written down as attending school doesn't mean he did abandon his citizenship – no matter what the Indonesian law said at the time. It is just as likely that his step-father slipped someone some money and they let him in. Just as likely, anyway, as an actual citizenship change.
Either way, the issue regarding "why they won't release the documents" isn't nearly as nefarious as you've made it out to be.
the sinner,
Patrick
Based on facts, laws at the time of birth, and the demonstrated differences between a certificate of live birth (o provided) and a birth certificate (o doesn't have) I believe it is reasonable that o might not be natural born. Am I invested in this being the truth? No, but I want clarification. I would like to see the birth certificate instead of the certificate of live birth, which anyone could get at that time, even if born outside the US.
o is hiding something. It's been suggested that his race is listed as white, not black, based on his mother's race. Wouldn't that just blow the whole post racial president phenomenon? Perhaps that's why o has spent millions to keep from having to produce a birth certificate instead of a certificate of live birth.
Obama would be a natural-born citizen even if he was born in Kenya. George Romney, who ran for the nomination, was born in Mexico City, and John McCain was born in Panama. You only have to have one parent who is a citizen to have natural-born citizenship regardless of where you were born. My stepbrother was born overseas of an American citizen mother and a foreign father, and he is a natural-born citizen. His daughters were both born overseas, and they are natural-born citizens. Bobby Jindal was born in America of foreign citizens, and he is a natural-born citizen. All of the above are eligible for the Presidency. The list is endless. Arguments to the contrary would be more persuasive if they didn't directly counter American immigration law. Don't believe me? Get a good immigration lawyer and see that I'm right.
That was beautiful. Thanks.
I'm not so sure that there is a connection between treating Birthers with disdain and this vision of the US. It is a well-written, though common, concept of American exceptionalism. I, personally, don't buy it. Not that I don't love my country! Far from it! However, there is no such thing as any secular governmental system that can "bring out the best" in any man. That is why, often, individuals like Mr. Boreing attempt to link the cultural inheritance of the West to our founding. I agree with him, but not in the way he believes. What the US inherited was the ever-declining influence of a watered-down version of Christianity already heavily tainted with humanism and egocentrism. This was true from the very beginning of our nation.
What we've seen, then, is the inevitable increase in said humanism and egocentrism. It is only natural that individuals who gravitate to such ideologies, that necessarily deny God, see man as "god." If that's so, then what Obama became isn't shocking or frightening – it is expected. If there is a starting assumption that the human intellect is the most superior source of knowledge, then why can't we simply "command" our way to a utopia?
I know there are many arguments about how it can't work (or hasn't), but those very same arguments require specific starting assumptions. And if people who think like Obama DON'T buy into those starting assumptions, and instead begin with the idea of the superiority (and perfectibility) of the human intellect, then it is only natural that they end up promoting a totalitarian ideal – all the while thinking it is truly for the best and will make everyone happy. There is nothing nefarious about it – no mustache twirling or big cigar-smoking in back rooms.
Simply put, looking at the development of Western culture over the last several centuries, it was inevitable that men like Marx would emerge and that men like Obama would follow him.
the sinner,
Patrick
PS
I know someone's gonna say "you keep saying the same things," but they are still applicable. This author, in my estimation, makes the same mistakes that others before have made. They are commonly taught and commonly accepted mistakes – but, again, this all depends on your starting assumptions.
The biggest mistake, however, is the methodology: examining this issue from an historically truncated position.
the sinner,
Patrick
We have found common ground Brother.
The article assumes that all those who are called "Birthers" think he's not a citizen or similar. Others just want to see the documents he's so eager not to show us.
And, as with (no really) everyone else but me, the author doesn't understand how the "Birthers" issue could be used to discredit the MSM. And, that could be done without buying into any "Birther theories". All one would have to do would be to simply tell the truth about this issue and point out that the MSM has been consistently lying.
To see what I'm talking about, see my exhaustive summary and all the posts on that page that point out how the MSM and the sub-MSM has lied about this issue. (Note: by "lie", I mean factual errors, not just a difference of opinion).
Thankfully your opinion about what is a Natural Born citizen isn’t relevant.
Fact: Anyone who has dual citizenship at birth is by definition NOT a Natural Born Citizen.
If you don’t like that, amend the Constitution.
End of subject
Agreed, this is an excellent analysis of why contemptuously dismissing the so-called "birthers" is wrong. I happen to believe the only rational position to take on BHO's constitutional eligibility for the presidency — does he meet the "natural born citizen" requirement? — is to be absolutely agnostic, not knowing one way or the other, unless and until a certified copy of BHO's long-form birth certificate is released for public examination. Furthermore, I don't believe the question will ever be adjudicated — what judge would demand production of the relevant documents from as powerful a figure as a sitting president? The even more important question is why BHO won't produce the documents without court order to do so — or does he want to maintain a permanent group for easy demonization whenever he needs a political distraction? But worse yet, a false parallelism is being set up between the "truthers" and the "birthers." The "truthers" claimed a large-scale conspiracy of multiple individual conspirators to falsely justify a war with Osama bin Laden and eventually Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Sorry, but to draw this false equivalency is to accuse the "birthers" of claiming that the newborn BHO led a conspiracy of his parents and grandparents in a plot to become U.S. president someday. That "take" on the "birthers' is what is actually lunatic. They aren't claiming a conspiracy of any sort — just lone-wolf BHO taking advantage of secrecy and privacy laws to hide potentially embarrassing, possibly even disqualifying, information. And hasn't BHO already demonstrated over and over that he's less than trustworthy in what he states? So who really is the crazier?
But he is buying it! He has paid lawyers over 1.3 million to fight showing it. Lookup up Perkins Coie. Sounds fishy! Maybe I shoudl report that to that govt site?! NOT!
But the Certification of Live Birth that was issued is IDENTICAL to the Certification of Live Birth that would have been issued if Osama was born in Bali, or Kenya, or Canada.
and? And, it directly refutes what you said: denying overhwhelming evidence against their supposed theories.
As I began, there is no overwhelming evidence (as you stated) against their theorys.
and? And, it directly refutes what you said: denying overhwhelming evidence against their supposed theories.
As I began, there is no overwhelming evidence (as you stated) against their theories.
Why is the burden of proof on the American people–POTUS Obeyme should release his ACTUAL birth certificate and other records in the name of truth and transparency. Instead we have to rely on FactCheck.org, an organization that is funded by Obama's ex-employer The Annenburg Project. We have a right to question how he got his passport to travel to Pakistan in 1981 and other pertinent information. His refusal to do so only hints that he is trying to hide something. Many of the so called "birthers" have not said that they KNOW he is constitutionally ineligible to serve but they cannot be sure that he is because of his willful refusal to provide the indisputable TRUTH.
I don't mean to jump into the fray here, but could you all at least try to remember that we're all on the same side here (or supposed to be)? We've got enough problems to tackle without this infighting. Me, I can see it both ways. I don't believe Obama was born outside the U.S. (there may be a case for the later renunciation thing, but that remains to be seen), but I know too many of those who believe he was to go with the idea that they're just trying to "stir things up." Right or wrong, these are, for the most part, people who are genuinely worried about whether they have a sham President (in the legal sense; in every other way that's already been proven). At the same time, people like George who are less than happy about the birther issue's prominence are not liberals for that reason. Some of them may be liberals in disguise, I don't know, but one can disregard the birther controversy and still be a bona fide, patriotic conservative. I'm not trying to take any particular side here; just saying, we've got enough fish to fry as it is.
Well the birther's have produced Sun Yat-Sen 's Hawaiin Certificate of Live Birth.. He was born in China, yet was able to obtain a document from the state of Hawaii indicating he was born in Hawaii.
I've not seen any one indicate that this is not true.
Your logic seems backward to me. As I've outlined the arguement, since there is evidence that it is possible to generate a COLB falsely, as the Birther's have claimed, although they may start claiming the Long Form is a fraud of some kind, you can't really assume that that is the case. I have no reason to disbelieve any Hawaiin officials, although the birther's have also documented the conflicting statements that have come from Ms Okubo and the head of the Department of Health on this subject.
Well the birthers have produced Sun Yat-Sen 's Hawaiin Certificate of Live Birth.. He was born in China, yet was able to obtain a document from the state of Hawaii indicating he was born in Hawaii.
I've not seen any one indicate that this is not true.
Your logic seems backward to me. As I've outlined the arguement, since there is evidence that it is possible to generate a COLB falsely, as the Birther's have claimed, although they may start claiming the Long Form is a fraud of some kind, you can't really assume that that is the case. I have no reason to disbelieve any Hawaiin officials, although the birther's have also documented the conflicting statements that have come from Ms Okubo and the head of the Department of Health on this subject.
Well the birthers have produced Sun Yat-Sen 's Hawaiin Certificate of Live Birth.. He was born in China, yet was able to obtain a document from the state of Hawaii indicating he was born in Hawaii.
I've not seen any one indicate that this is not true.
Your logic seems backward to me. As I've outlined the arguement, since there is evidence that it is possible to generate a COLB falsely, as the Birthers have claimed, although they may start claiming the Long Form is a fraud of some kind, you can't really assume that that is the case. I have no reason to disbelieve any Hawaiin officials, although the birther's have also documented the conflicting statements that have come from Ms Okubo and the head of the Department of Health on this subject.
"You're wrong. And anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant."
Wow, now that's a good example of liberal tolerance and understanding.
If you had paid any attention to the debate above, you would know good and well that conservatives and Republicans are very badly split on the issue of whether there's any merit to the birther claims and whether presenting those claims is productive or not. But of course, you just posted a screech and nothing of substance. Congratulations.
Obama had his done long before the election
Really? When exactly? Do you know he has, or are you just babbling?
Had there been any inconsistency or lack of documentation then it would have come out then. It didn't.
Actually, John McCain, who has had a completely public life, as the son of an admiral, an atendee of our Military Academies, a war prisorner, and a US Senator for decades had this very question raised about him during the Presdidential campaign. He didn't cite security clearances or service, he simply released his Long Form Birth Certfificate to end the question.
You're wrong. And anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. Yes. Classic.
I agree with you, but obviously if Mr. Obama's records come out they could clearly end a number of myth's of the left.
I agree with you, but obviously if Mr. Obama's records come out they could clearly end a number of myths of the left.
Since you threw a bunch of questions around, connected with a bunch of insults, I'll just throw some (calmer) questions back at you.
1. Do you deny that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, and that the rights you speak of come from an essentially Christian view of the world?
2. Do you believe that the sovereignty of the U.S.A., beyond being connected in necessary alliances with those of other nations, should be subordinated to that of trans-national organizations?
3. Are you aware that the U.S. government often had to make some difficult decisions as a result of conflicts such as the Cold War, in which there were no good choices?
4. Do you hold people guilty for having genuine problems with a president whose middle name is in fact Hussein? If so, does this not make you as hateful as you accuse them of being?
I await your answers.
Which ones were Deists, and what are these supposed denigrations of organized religion?
They have produced what they say is a certificate of live birth, to use their own language. I'm a little lost as to what significance a false certificate issued in 1904 has to the argument. We're talking about a certificate issued now. As to the counterfeiting issue, any certificate can be counterfeited. Any certificate can be fraudulently obtained. The question is, why would spokesmen for the Hawaiian Department of Health verify it? I have seen no evidence that the Hawaiian authorities have contradicted themselves or lied. If you have any, I would like to see it. I'm always most interested in seeing evidence that contradicts what I believe on this subject. Unfortunately for the birther argument, I haven't seen any.
Is it? Then why do the spokesmen for the Hawaiian DOH confirm that his COLB is legitimate, and that he is a native born citizen? Why do they say that a COLB is what you get when you request a birth certificate, period? That is the crucial question. They are the only ones in a position to verify that Obama is a natural born citizen, and they have said he is. Are the lying? Considering that any further comfirming information we are going to get comes from them, why will the birthers believe it when and if they produce it? They won't. It's a perfect closed system impervious to outside proof.
The fact that by simply showing the document the White House could "shut the birthers up" should make it intuitively obvious to you that the White House doesn't want to shut the birthers up (the other possible conclusion being that they don't have the document. It's been awhile since I worked through my syllogistic reasoning color pages).
You're playing into their hands. This is political strategy, people.
I would just dispute your premise. To call the U.S. a Christian nation is not asserting that one need be a chrstian to be an American, but only that the majority of the people in this country abide in some general fashion with mainstream chrsitian moral thinking.
Something akin to Richard Gere going to Bollywood and lip-locking a Hindu babe and then the whole country going ape-shit and wanting him arrested and put on trial. Some Hindu thing. Thereby making India a "Hindu" country in a general sense of the word.
There is no overwhelming evidence against their theory.
It's really very simple. A "Certificate of Live Birth" is what Obama has released. It has been proven that both after 1982 and before Hawaiin statehood (1957) that such documents were issued to people who claimed residency in Hawaii but had had children out of state. Whether this was regulated differently between statehood and a statute enacted in 1982 is not clear.
The Newspaper announcements that everyone (including Boreing) cite are merely printed listings of the Certificates of Live Birth. The Birther's have established that.
Birther's claim that the Hospital produced Birth Certficate..ie..the "long form" birth certficate would satisfy their questions. It has been established that it should be in existence and state officials have claimed that they have viewed it, but can not release it without permission.
The hole in the DNC argument is that the certificate of live birth and the newspaper accounts were both open to fraudulent abuse. The state allowed people to register a birth with just a relative as a witness of the birth. This was done to allow for at home births, but could have been arranged to provide cover for Barack being born outside of the USA as his grandmother attested. So a possible scenerio would be that "arriving back in the states days after his birth in Kenya, Barrack is registered as a live birth here in the USA, and the newspapers, following the registrations, pick up the family names and print it." This allows Barack Sr. parents to be happy with the traditional birth in his native Africa, and for the child to skip the legal details of immigration. This scenario is totally possible given the facts we now have and fully explains the existing documents. If it is true or not depends on either a) Obama releasing his records, or b) the verification of the Kenyan birth certificate that has recently surfaced. Either Obama is playing some weird game hiding a valid birth certificate, or he is lying. The issue is not decided, but if some bookie could start taking bets, I think I know where I would put my money.
The director of the Health Department claims to have personally held the document.
CNN claims the DOH told them that the records had been destroyed.
Okube says she can't comment specifically on Obama's BC becasue it's against the law to do so.
The Sun Yat Sen document is only to prove that it is possible to have a faked Certificate of Live Birth.
I personally agree with you. The head of DOH says she personally held the Long Form in her hand. I believe her.
I'm just contending with the original statement in this thread, that there is some
'overwhelming evidence" that is disproving the Birthers. That is just not so. From what I can tell, it's not that impossible to obtain a faked COB.
http://rightsoup.com/obama-birth-certificate-lies...
One extremely important thing occured during the birther controversy that has been overlooked.
After Lou Dobbs was attacked for covering the issue, Jon Klein (President of CNN) sent an email to Dobbs saying that CNN reporters had thoroughly investigated the issue and that the Long Form Birth Certificate was destroyed years ago when the state converted to electronic documents. Jon Klein demanded that this information be reported by Lou Dobbs on his TV show that night. Jon Klein is an established Obama supporter.
Dobbs did as ordered. By the end of the week, the state came forward and insisted that it did not destroy any public records and the Long Form did in fact exist.
CNN's politically motivated President dictated that mis-information be reported on air. Remember that the next time you hear a liberal attacking Fox News as biased.
I have news for you buddy. "Death panels" are already here today.
Long before anyone started talking about government "death panels" or warning that Obama would have the government ration care, 17-year-old Nataline Sarkisyan, a leukemia patient from Glendale, Calif., died in December 2007, after her parents battled their insurance company, Cigna, over the surgery.
more about today's "Death Panels":
A study by the American Medical Association found the biggest insurance companies in the country denied between 2 and 5 percent of claims put in by doctors last year (though the AMA noted that not all the denials were improper). There is no national database of insurance claim denials, though, because private insurance companies aren't required to disclose such stats. Meanwhile, a House Energy and Commerce Committee report in June found that just three insurance companies kicked at least 20,000 people off their rolls between 2003 and 2007 for such reasons as typos on their application paperwork, a preexisting condition or a family member's medical history. People who buy insurance under individual policies, about 6 percent of adults, may be especially vulnerable, but the 63 percent of adults covered by employer-provided insurance aren't immune to difficulty.
Hey Chris, I don't know what your thinking but there is no way it will ever happen after all everyone knows that the world is FLAT. Man Columbus is a nut,he's absolutely crazy. I heard him say that the world is round what a goof ball. Point is EVERYONE [ as in a group] has been wrong before. Myself I would rather be on the side of caution when it comes to the people that run the country and are now trying to run our lives. If there's a question from an American Citizen [ or thousands of Citizens ] to the President why wouldn't he answer it? After all it's just a piece of paper,a piece of paper that would put to rest all the questions.
Yeah… do they have amusement parks in your fantasy world?
I just watched a "town hall meeting" featuring El Presidente, replete with no opposing views and a 100% supportive audience. I saw Obama LIE, distort, and be condescending to frightened, concerned Americans. I was disgusted. To say that single-payer will not result in rationed care is a LIE. Obama LIES when he says that he will not add to the deficit with his health-care reform. He ridicules and mocks opponents because he can't refute their claims or engage in honest debate. And you parrot the lies and disinformation.
What exactly are you dissenting, anyway? The dissenters?
You're supporting the administration- that's all.
And Nancy Pelosi is next! It's a trifecta of the below average:
Dumb-O, Slo-Jo and, BoTox Pelosi.
The second belief is definitely more dangerous.
You implied in your statement about the 2008 VP candidate that 'death panels' do not exist by using the word 'fictitious' to describe them. Now you admit they do.
With private insurance one has recourse to sue. You have no such recourse with the government involved.
If you are so much in love with Obamacare, have a double helping of it. But don't force other people that want absolutely nothing to do with socialized medicine into a government 'single-payer' plan, as Obama calls it.
I prefer taking my chances with the insurance companies and choosing which company I do business with, thank you very much.
. . .The Obama administration has not done a good job explaining and promoting its health care plan. But if the hate-filled politics continues to simmer, the White House could benefit from a backlash against the fringe conservatives who offer little more in response beyond likening everything to socialism.
Or fascism. Whatever.
― Thomas Schaller
You thinly veil your contempt for Obama by claiming the birth issue is unsettled and therefore in doubt. Obama followed the exact same path to meeting the 3 requirements of assuming the Presidency as every President before him, no one (not even the most bellicose of birthers) is even suggesting that other Presidents offered up superior documentation before taking office, he is the sworn in President and there is nothing unsettled to settle. Why should the obviously partisan doubts and taunts of a minority of opposition party citizens be the cause for an increase in the level of scrutiny or disclosure concerning these requirements? Where would that lead? Obviously to opposition citizens ad infinitum demanding more and more "proof" that some guy they don't care for meets requirements that have been settled in the same manner year over year since the country was founded. I have no idea why you say these folks should be treated like they have a reasonable position. I have laid my hands and eyes on exactly zero genuine Presidential Birth Certificates, and by the birther's logic I could have hypothetically commited all manner of would be crimes against former "so called" President's (there are acts that are only crimes when directed toward the President) and only been held accountable upon presentation of an original "birth certificate" that I alone deem acceptable "proof" of natural citizenship, residency, or age. That is stupid.
Obama has released a COLB, which Hawaii tells us is the same as our birth certificate in other states. Official Hawaii spokesmen have said he was born here twice, and that they would under no circumstances issue a COLB that said anything else.
Why, my birther brothers, would you believe them if they released the so-called long form when you don't believe anything they've said so far?
"You implied in your statement about the 2008 VP candidate that 'death panels' do not exist by using the word 'fictitious' to describe them. Now you admit they do"
No- what's fictious is anything with the label "death panel". The reality is that there IS something called rationed care and the government isn't introducing it. its already here.
"I prefer taking my chances with the insurance companies and choosing which company I do business with, thank you very much."
you should check out reality pal. Reality dictates that not everyone gets to go to any insurance company they want. that's because insurance companies are really picky these days. (oh, not when they're taking your money. just when you get sick.)
With Obamacare you will not have even that option. And you place yourself at the total mercy of the federal government.
Even with the imperfections and horror stories you may wish to recount about our current system, name any country where socialized medicine is a success.
Many ask why Obama doesn't just release the birth certificate and put the issue to rest. The answer seems simple … there is no birth certificate to produce.
"No. One side is definitely more unhinged, more biased, more partisan and more irresponsible than the other. "
And the other side votes GOP…
Sure, here goes:
1. To say that the Founders were Christian (and some, it should be pointed out, were not–Jefferson's views on religion, for example, were complicated to say the least) in my view doesn't make the United States a Christian nation. That logic would kind of imply that since the Founders were white, this is a white nation, right? Again, perhaps I am more sensitive to this being non-Christian, but to me, civics class didn't include religion or an adherence to an essential Judeo-Christian faith. I'll get into this below, I think, but I don't think it should be a prerequisite to belong to a Judeo-Christian faith to be President of the United States or an elected representative or a leader in your community. Saying we're a Christian nation is implying a religious litmus test that I believe denigrates the ultimate sacrifice of non-Christians and Christians alike for the land in which we live.
2. Of course not. We hold sovereignty over our national priorities and issues. Now, we can argue whether certain international institutions "subordinate our sovereignty" and I think we can have reasonable disagreements on, for example, whether the UN represents a subordination of our sovereignty, but I think its an area where reasonable people can take the same evidence and come to different decisions.
3. Of course I do. My point wasn't that. I don't think its totally illogical or crazy to state that we did the best we could, but the actions that we took in the past had consequences, and we understand that things happened as a result of those consequences. I think it is reasonable to say that we acted at times when there were no good choices, but the choices we made seem particularly bad today. Backing the Shah seems particularly bad given the Iranian uprising. Helping get rid of Lumumba was probably not the best course considering it begat Mobutu Sese Seko, not exactly anyone's cup of tea. And supporting the Afrikaaner government after it was clear that they were engaged in policies that were downright evil was probably not the best call. I don't think its un-American to state that we tried, we did the best we could, but boy, we wish we could do some of those over. By the way, I don't think the President's gone anywhere near as "apologetic" as that last statement was.
4. This one I'm going to have to have a disagreement about. The words of General Powell were far more eloquent than mine own, but I do hold people guilty for having problems with a president whose middle name is Hussein if their problems are solely because his middle name is Hussein. I don't think having a problem with President Obama because of his last name, or believing that he's some kind of Islamic Manchurian candidate, are genuine or real or substantive in any meaningful way shape or form, and calling him "Barry Soetero" does you no favor either. I think this President has done plenty that people can reasonably disagree with, as most Presidents do. I think its more than fair to question his philosophy of government, to state that his fiscal policies might not add up, or to state that the level of interaction between business and government today is troubling (although I have a feeling he'd probably agree with you on that).
However, I do think there is a sense or spirit of wanting to label this President as un-American, as an alien, as a foreigner in some way, and forgive me for believing that it is somewhat easier to label a man whose name is Barack Hussein Obama as un-American than it would be if his name was John McCain or Jimmy Carter or any other name or face who "looks the part" of being President. This is where I think the debate gets touchy. This President certainly had an adventurous start to his first few years of life, but nearly every credible immigration expert states that by virtue of his mother, he would be considered natural-born. The documentation he has given so far is prima facie evidence in any legal proceeding of his birth in this country and is considered as established fact by any court. The persistence of these claims leaves a foul taste in my mouth because they feel like a claim of "he's really not one of us." And that, I think, crosses the line. He may not be one of you ideologically, but he is an American, I believe he is a patriot, and I think claiming something else through some kind of conspiracy theory is beneath the dignity of the conservative movement. I think its pretty clear I don't necessarily follow its axioms, but I'd be a fool not to acknowledge the contributions of Buckley, Goldwater, and Reagan to American political thought, and not to acknowledge that these were serious people with serious alternative solutions for the nation. I don't see that from the "birthers."
Over 150 Columbia Graduates that were there when BO was there say they have no idea who a Barry Sotero, Barry Obama or Barack Obama is..and that they never were in any classes with him..
Ha, I wish! This was all unpaid while I should have been doing the errands for the day. Do they actually pay for people to comment on blogs? I wonder if I can get any ex poste cash! But no, this is all me, nobody else.
If those fine upstanding bureaucrats in Hawaii are telling the truth, then there is a long-form Certificate of Live Birth that indeed shows where Osama was born, who was the doctor (if there was one) and various and sundry other pertinent facts. The document was generated in 1961, and will be consistent with other similar documents generated in that time frame. Unlike Dan Rather's folly. Are they lying? How could they be? Have you ever seen a government official state anything other than the absolute truth? Of course not!
Um, no, I'm part of the majority of American voters who elected Obama president.
Rightl. You'll leave it up to insurance company bureaucrats, because they're all about the family thing.
France. Sweden. Switzerland. Great Britain, until Thatcher and Blair started systematically underfunding the NHS. Canada.
And you think a government bureaucracy, an administration that can't even run a 'Cash for Clunkers' program properly, will do a better job of taking care of your health insurance and health needs? You won't even be able to go outside the 'system' to pay for your own care?
The present system isn't perfect, but Obamacare is a nightmare just waiting to happen. And that it has to be rammed down our throats in the manner Obama and the dems are trying to should raise some red flags for you.
if its not a success, then why is it so hugely popular? Are all these socialist nations so UN-democratic that they cannot manage to democratically reform their "failures"?
uh, no. we are one of the few hold out nations that hasn't seen the light of socialized medicine! All of that money we blow on insurance sure buys a lot of lobbyist salaries and propaganda.
our system will not be canada's. Our system will not be single payer either, it seems.
There are big examples of private companies coexisting with government in the marketplace.
You bring up Fannie Mae- its true that they didn't have a bottom line because they were a quasi-public company. Fannie Mae certainly had problems, but they didn't cause any OTHER competitors to fail. So you aren't successfully making the point that private insurers wound not be able to compete with the public option.
by transportable, do you mean not employer based?
If so, I'm all for it! I think its a very American-concept. Why? America is all about mobility and entrepreneurship. Right now we are far too tied to employers for the purpose of benefits. We "lock in" jobs to get benefits the way teachers are tenured, or like other union jobs. Whatever happened to working at job, or moving from job to job, to succeed and grow?
but I don't think that's going to be part of the reform.
Because conspiracy theorists are never happy. No matter how many documents are released, there's always a Holy Grail yet to be released that will "finally prove" their assertion. The CLB should be sufficient, as far as the law is concerned, it is, but Birthers want more. They want the long form, Hawaiian law be damned. Even if that was released, they'd demand more. There's never going to be enough proof. The government can never release enough about Area 51. The government can never release enough about 9/11. Conspiracy theorists are never satisfied.
And even if some document proves he's not a natural citizen, what are you going to do /now/? Put Biden in charge? Put McCain in charge? Put Pelosi in charge? Have a new election?
Fiddle while the country melts down in the biggest Constitutional apocalypse in history?
Great essay Jeremy! Barry is the creation of academia, like some kind of Frankenstein monster, Manchurian Candidate if you will. Our President is the ultimate empty suit whose strings are pulled by the masters of the left, where original thought is replaced by worn out leftist dogma. This will not bode well for the direction of the USA over next three plus years, but makes him predictable.
AMEN and Hallelujah!
here's the rub-
while you are correct- and logical- in your post so far there is one thing about the Obama program that bothers us- that you cannot buy the service you need. If you have a single payer systemlike, say Canada's- even if you have the money you can't get the treatment. Rationed care
is just that, and not even those that can and will pay can get the help they need. You either qualify or not. And, private insurers wil not be able to compete with a government that doesn't have a bottom line- Fannie Mae, anyone?- so, ultimately this plan is there to achieve Alinsky's dream of a fully egalitarian society- not provide health care.
If that was the goal, allow transportable insurance owned by the consumer, let them compete over state lines for business, and give allowances to unemployed/underemployed so they may retain their policies. Cover all previous conditions. Give significant discounts for healthy practices,and pay for acupuncture, massage therapy and other healthy alternatives…
It can be done…
Old Tom is right on the money.
Citizen, non-citizen, doesn't matter it keeps good citizens busy chasing internet gossip and they serve as the whipping boy for Obama politically. It's win win in his play book, look at some of the infighting here it's generating. Birthers are part of the same group of average Americans who think that the Constitution has yet again been violated. There are plenty of Constitutional questions that need all of our attention and cooperation now.
Personally I think he was born in the states. He and all other elected officials should have to meet the constitutional requirements before the election processes even begins and it should be available to the public.
The very word "banned" is on the ID "banned word list" that triggers "must be approved." Look closely and you will see I am posting it here with the "a" in italics, that gets around the filtering by "breaking up" the word.
Actually that was an atheist talking point I hacked away at for several days on a different board some years back. It started out as the Founding Fathers being Deists, agnostics, and atheists, and they were very critical of organized religion. Ended up that calling yourself a Deist got you credit in "high society" as an intellectual, it was popular at the time, while the majority were actually churchgoers that even praised organized religion. Even among those few who flatly disavowed they were Christians, you still found good things being said about Christianity and organized religion.
Thank you for eventually posting it.
Even if BO was not born here and therefore ineligible to be POTUS, the blowback from undoing a past election would be catastrophic.
B) Since this has become an issue, the states AND Congress should address it for FUTURE elections, i.e.
EXCLUDING Barack Obama (allowing him to run again in 2012 without having to produce any more evidence than he already has), ALL FUTURE candidates MUST FILE upon announcing candidacy a CERTIFIED birth certificate proving eligibility.
C) Since the propaganda media will not hold ALL candidates to the same standards (i.e. they signed on to McCain's NOT being born in the US without hesitancy and had no problem making Bush produce his national guard information and his college records), that which MUST BE produced should be delineated and set down by law; the rest should be PROHIBITED. (Since the propaganda media is dishonest, this would keep them from zeroing in on the non-Lefty candidate and forcing him/her to all kinds of standards the Leftist candidate doesn't have to meet. Think Sarah Palin).
I'm not a "birther". That's not to say I believe Obama was born in HI; that's to say I don't give a damn where he was born since he already is elected and we cannot undo that election without a civil and/or race war. I do not blame him for not providing his college transcripts, grades, Lsats, law school grades, etc., I blame the propaganda media for giving him a pass they wouldn't and didn't give George W. Bush, John McCain, Sarah Palin or any other Republican.
Believe me folks, Obama is not our problem. That we no longer have a media we can trust IS.
our system will not be canada's. Our system will not be single payer either, it seems.
There are big examples of private companies coexisting with government in the marketplace.
You bring up Fannie Mae- its true that they didn't have a bottom line because they were a quasi-government operation. Now Fannie Mae certainly had problems, but they didn't cause any OTHER competitors to fail. So you aren't successfully making the point that private insurers wound not be able to compete with the public option.
by transportable, do you mean not employer based?
If so, I'm all for it! I think its a very American-concept. Why? America is all about mobility and entrepreneurship. Right now we are far too tied to employers for the purpose of benefits. We "lock in" jobs to get benefits the way teachers are tenured, or like other union jobs. Whatever happened to working at job, or moving from job to job, to succeed and grow?
but I don't think that's going to be part of the reform.
You must be so proud wr1, how's that hope and change working out for you?
** hugely popular? ** Hardly.
Witness the number of patients of socialized medicine – Canada, UK, etc. – who, unable to get the treatment in their own country come here for timely treatment.
** Are all these socialist nations so UN-democratic that they cannot manage to democratically reform their "failures"? **
In a word, YES.
the single payer thing is a ticking time bomb contained inside the bill- most businesses would be forced to dump their employees into the public option because of the huge cost differential; as this continued insurers would pretty much wither and die- save for the 'Cadillac' programs owned by the very rich- and Congress… The best example of this is the comment that having the government compete with private insurers is like 'putting an alligator in a bunny hutch'- soon they'll all be devoured. No, transportability- taking your policy, one that you chose and bought, and your employer (or the government through tax breaks) helps with the expense. If you are laid off benefits to pay into the program should be available.
You can control costs by offering wise alternatives, diet and nutrition counseling, exercise and alternative health care (massage therapy, acupuncture, etc), raising 'sin' taxes
on alcohol and whatnot- even conservatives would have little problem with that- and yes, even taxing the benefits employers offer. McCain was right on that one…
Ultimately rationed care, which is what is on the table (checkout advisors Zeke Emanuel and Peter Singer) is a non-starter. Obama needs to abandon that sinking ship. The ideological desire to socialize the US isn't going to come to fruition any time soon. So, if he switched gears and tacks to the center he can still not only save, but put his Presidency back on track squarely in the middle… which is what he ran on in the first place.
Make sense?
I believe you are confusing the liberal line of thought with people who just want to know the truth and expect Obama to be 'transparent'. I also believe the people who just want to have verification would be pleased to just see Obama's original Hawiian birth certificate. John McCain provided his original birth certificate when asked to do so by the Democrats and the request for Obama to provide the same document is no different in this respect. Other Presidents have presented all documents as required by law and the Freedom of Information Act so why is Obama obstructing the truth about his origins? I will remain skeptical. As for your assertion that Biden or Pelosi would then be president, you show an ignorance of Federal law in this area. Actually the entire election would be declared fraudulent and there would need to be another election set up. The Surpreme Court would be in charge of presidental decisions until after the election. I take it you are a Liberal as that would be the rational conclusion in reading your response.
All very nice, and the wider point that Obama´s is a manufactured image that doesn´t correspond with reality is true. But in the end, the birth certificate issue is a dead end. Let´s give it a rest already.
It is also a distraction. And that´s why left-wing media like to talk about it, because it is a good distraction. It hurts our cause, the conservative cause, so please give it a rest.
Instead, let´s talk about the many things the likes of Chris Matthews do NOT want to take up.
To clarify, now that the very few requirements of a President have been mentioned, exactly why would a security clearance check have been done anyway? He is an elected official, as he was as a Senator before this, not a federal employee. The intelligence agencies cannot withhold information from the President, their boss, and if clearances really mattered for Senators then there should have been a ton of prosecutions and some jail sentences for what has been "leaked" from the Congress. And if there had been something objectionable found, would the public have been informed? There could have been red flags all over the place and we would never have known about it, especially as that would have been loudly denounced as illegally trying to disrupt the election.
The thing I love about your post is that it finally starts getting into policy disagreements. I totally respect your view and largely agree with it–I'd merely add that at least in modern American history, what has accompanied the ethic of self-reliance has also been a strong belief in community, one which I think justifies a safety net thus enabling people to take risks, knowing that if they fail, they can land on their own two feet. For example, I think if you didn't have something like unemployment insurance, people might not take the job with the risky start-up that might fail, but might also wildly succeed, because they would be nervous about landing on their feet. It's the same logic that I'd use for insurance reform–that in a way, by helping remove elements of uncertainty from people's lives, we're essentially enabling them to take chances that could have profoundly positive outcomes. If there was universal access to health insurance, some people could take that job with the small business with limited benefits but huge potential upside instead of a safer, but potentially less rewarding, opportunity. It's why we choose to do certain things as a society: roads, defense, schools, and perhaps health care, depending on the outcome of this fall's legislative process.
Those points are part of a larger policy debate, a debate I'm not sure this thread is interested in delving into. The thing that's great is that that neither of our views is inherently right or wrong. They're just different, and they're different visions for our nation. Neither is more "American" or more "patriotic" than the other. I don't presume to have a monopoly on being right–but I sense you don't presume that, either. I get the sense that we both want the same thing for this country–we just think it should happen in different ways, and that's totally fine.
I've name-checked him before, but I think David Brooks' piece on dignity is spot-on. Political discourse only works when you can hear each other. Otherwise, its just cacophony drowning out more cacophony, all resembling Shakespeare's view of life as a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
No, that does not justify name calling in any way. To be honest, reading the replies to your comments from some of my conservative "brethren" has been disappointing to say the least. Anyone who reacts to another's opinion with an ad hominem attack needs to look in the mirror and ask themselves what exactly threatens you so much about another's ideas. If you are truly firm in your beliefs and open to new opinions and perspectives then someone disagreeing with you shouldn't matter so much. But I digress.
I completely agree with your reply to mine. Really, when I look at both of our comments, it seems like we are in agreement on the facts but merely debating semantics. In fact, I think you could make the same case for many of the comments in this thread. No, this country isn't a Theocracy but is heavily influenced by the religious beliefs of our founders and it's people. Correct me if I am wrong but India could be characterized the same.
I laud your efforts to add to the intelligent discussion and debate as to the direction of our country and it's current President. I also agree with your point that it is much easier to cast Obama as Un-American than a man/woman with a more traditional American name. I do not believe that calling the President Un-American accomplishes anything. I completely agree with your point that we should stop the petty name calling and save the debate for things that matter and are entirely within the realm of responsible discourse.
The only thing I would argue is while America is full of different opinions and ideologies, and there is no "American" ideology, there is one thing that has been an undeniable part of the American ideal from day one and that is self-reliance. We as a country were founded on this ideal and individually as people were shaped by it. That is the main reason that I think the President's policies offend so many Americans. It ties in with the same ideals of freedom and liberty, which as you already mentioned are the ideals that make this country great. The policies of the President seem to take the power out of the people's hands and put their fate in the government system. The strength of this country has been and always will be its people. You are a great example of such. You obviously have learned a great deal about your country and by adding that to your Indian heritage and Hindu faith you have a unique perspective on things that others should be able to learn from. It is that diversity that makes America stronger.
I do agree that while I may disagree vehemently on the President's direction for this country he is doing what he thinks is best. I do not believe he hates America of Americans. I don't think the evidence supports such a supposition. I wholeheartedly agree with our assertion we should stop the petty name calling and have a debate of substance and with the goal to find a common ground.
I thank you for your comments and laud you for your efforts to keep the debate about the facts and not fall into the trap of name calling and infantile insults. Both conservatives and liberals could use a lesson on doing so themselves.
[...] PDRTJS_settings_102454_post_1321 = { “id” : “102454″, “unique_id” : “wp-post-1321″, “title” : “Interesting+Read”, “item_id” : “_post_1321″, “permalink” : “http%3A%2F%2Fliberexmachina.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F08%2F12%2Finteresting-read-7%2F” } Defending the Birther (Obama) movement. [...]
** right! The US is the only real democracy *right*. **
Not sure how you arrived at the idea that the US is a democracy. The United States is, and always has been, in fact, a Republic.
A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for supper…….
"Witness the number of patients of socialized medicine" how does one witness such numbers? Why don't you show me some numbers, if you really can.
"Are all these socialist nations so UN-democratic that they cannot manage to democratically reform their "failures"? YES"
right! The US is the only real democracy *right*.
Look, we are not a "real" democracy, and I don't see how we are any *more* of one than any of these other nations with socialized health care. You tell me how we are if you think so.
"Not sure how you arrived at the idea that the US is a democracy."
did you read my post? Ahem, let me repeat myself: "we are not a "real" democracy".
Don't try to idiotically trump me with this bit about how we are a Representative Republic. That was already part of my point. The other part is that: so are a lot of these other countries. And they darn well like their socialized medicine. You don't see them having riotous town halls over whether to reform their system's or not, do you!?
** did you read my post? Ahem, let me repeat myself: "we are not a "real" democracy". **
Perhaps your use of the word 'real' confused me. Your distinction would have been better made had you made it known the United States was a Republic, rather than simply 'not a "real" democracy'.
How can you support a policy that started as health 'care' reform, has now morphed into health 'insurance' reform to make it more palatable, and still trust this administration to take care of you and your family better than you think you can?
You have far more absolutely blind faith in the Obama administration than I can ever muster.
[...] Jeremy Boreing insists that he believes that President Obama in eligible to serve as President, but goes on to defend the birthers: The question the Birthers are really trying to ask isn’t ‘is Barack Obama one of us.’ He [...]
Here I am at BigHollywood reading how President Barack Hussein Obama II is crafting his past and future. Scripts-r-us. How Hollywood is that? Of course all Americans are birthers because we have to go back to the DMV 3 times with more documentation including divorce papers to update a drivers license! Why wouldn't a presidential candidate release his birth certificate with independently verifiable information like the name of the hospital and doctor?
But B.O. doesn't want to make this an issue because he would look bad pushing amnesty and having his Attorney General Eric "Nation of Cowards" Holder fight Georgia from requiring proof of citizenship to register to vote. Yeah, he's the smartest affirmative action guy in the room.
[...] That said, I find the way Read more at http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jdboreing/2009/08/11/in-defense-of-the-birthers/ [...]
[...] country when two Hawaiian newspapers reported at the time that he was. That said, I find the way th click for more var _wh = ((document.location.protocol==’https:’) ? “https://sec1.woopra.com” : [...]
[...] said, I find the way Read more at http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jdboreing/2009/08/11/in-defense-of-the-birthers/ Tags: Dollar, e pluribus unum, Money, Own, Print, Sick, the, Your « Health Care [...]
I have an original birth certificate from 1968. Mine. It is thick black gloss paper with white lettering and the state seal embossed. It is about 2/3rds the height of a sheet of paper and the same width.
It looks nothing like the pics I've seen of The President's birth certificate. Funny thing though, it looks exactly like those of my friends I grew up with.
I don't hold much of an opinion on where The President was born. I do know that unlike the troofers, the birthers' claims could be refuted quite easily.
When would The President ever have had occassion for a security clearance background check (I've had them and surety checks). Senators and Presidents don't have to have them since they are elected officials. Otherwise the one self-admitted communist in the house could never have achieved a clearance. Neil Abercrombie, from Hawai'i, could never have gotten one, and considering his associations in the past and present our President could not have obtained one without string pulling.
Kal
[...] In Defense of the Birthers Filed under: Uncategorized — jeremydboreing @ 1:54 am In Defense of the Birthers [...]
You must be logged in to post a comment.