“They say that in the Army, the women are mighty fine.”

[...] Original post by Big Hollywood [...]

The writer forgot to mention Alien. Take a look at the woman in that…not Ripley, but the other one who was an actual soldier shooting up the Aliens, and the women of Starship Troopers…they were strong characters.

i almost joined the Army, but then they told me they don't let women drive tanks…i walked. If my men are behind a wall and I've got a tank that can crush that wall and release them, then I am totally down!

I encourage everyone to see "Lioness". I purchased the DVD when it first was available. It's something that bears watching multiple times. These women are really something. They bear the same scars their male counterparts do. Even more so, I believe, as they were not expecting what they were asked to do. God bless them. I pray for them every day, and for their families, some of whom you can tell feel helpless to help. Light really has to be shone on this subject.

I really wish I could go to this festival. Thanks so much for your updates. I can hardly wait until "How We Get By" comes out on DVD. God bless our military, past, present, and future, and their families, and all of us who support them in any way we can.

The story about female mechanics and support troops pulled into duty as check-point guards and door-to-door search party members is a relic of our attempts to respect Islamic culture by providing female troops to search women rather than having our male soldiers patting down women and searching under their robes.

It's dangerous. The single largest loss of female troops in Iraq in one event was when a bus that collected female check-point guards and brought them back to the FOB was hit. (This event makes me furious because male troops didn't travel back and forth daily because it was *dangerous* yet the female troops couldn't be left to bunk with the male troops. I suppose getting blown up is preferable to a lack of privacy.) Actually… I wonder if the lioness story is about that event? In any case, other female support troops stepped forward and volunteered to take the place of their sisters who were killed or wounded without being asked. It makes me very proud.

When it comes to the general question of women in combat I think that the remark on the trailer, that the speaker never expected it when she enlisted, is important and telling. Expectations affect mindset. Women have fewer role models and fewer conceptual… maps… available than men for what "warrior" looks like. It makes a difference.

The incredible bravery of these women who never even trained for combat or expected to shoot their weapon is inspiring. I recall hearing of a young woman who's assignment was as chaplain's assistant who subdued someone coming through a gate with weapons, put him face down in the dirt… a chaplain's assistant. Wow.

And with training we get Leigh Ann Hester.

Thanks. That's why I wanted to hear from folks in the military. I hope to hear more. It's too easy for civilians like me to make decisions for the guys and gals doing the fighting. I am always deferential to those like you who have actually lived it. I think all that I'm really looking for is people like you, in the know, to eliminate my misgivings. So far, so good. Oh, and lest I forget–thank you and thanks to the squid for protecting my freedom even to have an opinion and express it publicly. I know full well who guarantees that for us.

When I was a kid, it was considered a huge insult to say “your mother wears combat boots!”

Mine was a WAC, maybe I should ask her what she wore.

Heh.

On this issue I think my mother had it right. Her view was that her son was not *less* dear to her than her daughters.

Sounds like my family. We have two daughters and a son. And we were lucky enough to raise them in more peaceful times than we face now (although my son was of draft age during the first Iraq War). But thinking about it now, my older daughter wouldn't have cut it, my son would have been good at it, but my younger daughter would have been a gung-ho Marine.

My brother and I both enlisted, much to our parent's bemusement since it's not a family tradition. My two sisters never considered it. My son just turned 18 so he got registered for selective service (which can be done on-line, now) but I don't expect him to join the military even though his father and I both served. It seems more likely, though, as he gets older and more confident. My oldest daughter was really interested in the Marines but that seems to be less as she gets older. She may change her mind back again. Our younger two girls… I couldn't say. My middle daughter may surprise me. She's the most girly-girl in the family but she's also the biggest belch and farter, and spends more time on first-person-shooters than either of the other girls.

Kids are weird.

I am not saying women can't hack it, phyically or emotionally. Many are quite tough and do a fantastic job. How do I know? I was there in Fallujah, observing them work. One woman Marine was an especially good dog handler. The dog was a bomb sniffer and attack dog. Believe me, no one gave this girl any crap. (Dog was huge). What doesn't work is the instincts of men in women in combat. Fortunately, this was not a war where women in combat had a huge effect on the outcome of a battle. There have not been many prolonged battles in this war. Mostly small attacks. I seriously doubt women saw combat in "Lioness". Real combat. Even if they did, I am not saying they wouldn't do well. Finally, my point– like it or not, women eventually become mothers. The nurturing mother does not need to be a killer. I think it's great that these women are willing to give their lives for their country. Got it. We all get it. Every person who signed the dotted line knew full well what that meant. My point is that men were made to be protectors. Real men would never put the burden of killing on women. I think it's a shame our society allows women to carry this burden. It is a burden. It's a tremendous responsibility to kill others… and that is exactly what we are doing by putting women in our defense forces. When the big one hits, I feel for these women. There will be another big war. These women will be required to kill. That shouldn't be necessary. Our military should not experiment with the tried and true lessons of human roles, dating back thousands of years… not just the last thirty.

The last defense. The USSR showed that in 42. Momma bears are mean, vicious in protection mode.

The thing is, can you really call that a woman? If a woman has to basically become a man in order to do the job, what are we doing to gender roles in our society (which, like it or not, exist for a reason)?

Maggie45, think about Casey's comments.

I'm one of the old farts often mentioned here, but I differ in my opinion in that I tend to think its a good thing to have all voters involved in the military (yes,all). When you're lying there, torn up & bleeding, do you really care who ministers to you- who blows the breath of life into your lungs & applies the compress? I sorta doubt it. A good buddy was shot in Nam by a female Cong sniper. He said it didn't feel any different than the other time. If you see women as "baby factories" then get out on the street and fight for the babies we abort every day. I've worked with many police women over the years and they, like the men I've served with , have varying degrees of skill . I respect and admire all service personnel & thank them for thier service.

I'll go to my grave believing that honorable men go to war to spare their women horror. That said, if a woman wants to go into combat situations, AND SHE CAN PASS THE SAME RIGOROUS TESTS THAT A MAN MUST, then more power to you, sister. What I am immovably against is cutting women any slack whatsoever in these situations. Warriors depend on their fellow soldiers. If a woman wants to "go there" and she can hack it, fine. Otherwise, absolutely, positively NOT!

When I was in the Army 37 years ago, there was still a W omen's Army Corps – but things were starting to change. "Tell it like you got a pair", the Sgts would instruct, and then add, "…of lungs".

Read in one of the Gulf Wars a female A10 pilot got the nickname by her fellow pilots of "K.C.", for "Killer Chick".

YOU THOUGHT WEST POINT WOULD BE LIKE SUMMER CAMP???? A cousin just graduated there – a fete I consider worthy in itself considering some 10% drop out within the 1st few months. Forget the exact number but it was surprising, considering how hard it is to get into…

What I find frustrating is tghat good, decent movies – that producers sacrifice just to make – - like "Two Brothers" can only be seen by a few while the usual Iraq Crap from Hollywood gets national play…

I think I heard that the Air Force Academy loses 40% of the Freshman class. I'd expect West Point would be similar.

I can't argue with regards to the capability of women in combat as I have no knowledge of what they can and cannot do. However, I think there are two traditional reasons for keeping women out of combat.

1. From the long-term perspective, you need women to produce babies. A population of many women and few men can rebuild itself. A population of many men and few women is in trouble. As a result, young women are a much more valuable asset to a civilization than young men.

2. For optimal performance in a military organization, you need soldiers focused on the mission and to whom duty comes first. Unfortunately, women have the ability to biologically distract men and give men priorities other than following orders. This, I believe, is the proper response to why women should not be in combat units. You need to know that your men are focused on the task at hand and not worrying about the pretty blond machine-gunner. This, of course, is not the fault of women, but it is what it is.
(Coincidentally, I think this reasoning has more to do with gays being barred from the military than simple homophobia. But, that is probably a topic for another day.)

A couple of points that I've seen on this second page:
Submarines do have size requirements already. Ships, in general, do.
Medics actually need to be strong. Carrying litters of broken men in combat is more strenuous than you think. In addition, carrying wounded, the fireman carry is difficult, even for big men. Try going further than 20 yards doing it: quickly, at that. Bench press is not a good test of strength. Carrying a person (squats, cleans, other power lifting exercises, cross-fit exercises) are a much better test of strength. The Marine Corps is incorporating a new physical fitness test that simulates stresses on the body experienced in 'combat'. It's kind of pathetic, so far, actually. A salient point to be taken away– generally (exceptions will always occur; it's exceptions that stick the foot in the door for inappropriate policies) women are not performing well.
Been in tanks. It's uncomfortable, no matter what.
Jets are uncomfortable, too. Size restrictions with certain type model series, as well. In fact, size restrictions apply, not only for being too big for certain cockpits, but for being too small. Smaller people can affect timing of ejections and also they break easily, under 18 g forces of stress under immediate, rocket propelled thrust through a glass canopy. In addition, in multiple crew ejection platforms (for instance, 4 people ejecting in an emergency in a EA-6B Prowler), there are milliseconds between the ejection sequences. Weight does matter. If you are too light, this will affect the trajectory and greatly increase the likelihood of hitting another aviator with your rocket propelled metal seat….causing further traumatic injury, likely death. Why do I know this immediately without research? I flew it. Ended my tour last year flying it. Without wild conjecture, I actually know the nuances of this topic, and know exactly what I am talking about. It is gender neutral, too. Many men are disqualified from flying certain platforms because of the length of legs, etc. When ejecting, the bottom sides of the legs are hit with immediate high impact, causing both femurs to break if the legs are too long…. especially when the knees get caught in avionics display, ripping legs apart. The testing is, in fact, gender neutral. What happens when the aviator hits the ground? Weight has a role in ground impact. Better to be light in this case. Emergency chutes are high velocity impact. How fast can the person run to hiding, etc? What happens when they get caught? A case no one likes to talk about- the woman who ejected in the Gulf War. Raped multiple times by Iraqi captors… a terrible tragedy, in my opinion. God bless her bravery. Shame on the men who should have been in her position, in my humble opinion.

It's nice to see you have no logical objection. Now, if only you could see that: A male medic and a female medic should pass the same tests, whatever the military decides that they are. Same with infantry and every other variation you mention.

Yes, if marines are required to kick doors down, any women in those units should be held to EXACTLY the same standard (I had a girlfriend who was 5'11" and could leg press well over 400 pounds: I'm sure she would have had no problem qualifying on equal terms for a Marine combat unit, and would have, in fact, placed ahead of some of the men). Otherwise, the unit is put in danger by the weak link. How is it possible not to understand logic this simple?

Wait, I understand now. Your dick versus dick-less argument is illogical, so I guess there's no chance for you and I'm wasting my time. Do you really think that a woman should be in a combat unit just to add her feminine attributes for some kind of PR purposes? That's really and truly insane. How would the rest of the unit NOT get distracted trying to protect her when the chips are down? If she can carry her own water, fine. Otherwise, she is a distraction that imperils the unit. This shouldn't even be a debatable point, and it's sad that it is.

Plus, if you don't understand that age adjustments should apply to men and women equally, you're just not capable understanding the unassailable logic of my position. Ironically, my father – a military officer – thinks my position is hopelessly liberal, and that women have no business in combat zones at all. He's a USAF pilot, and even thinks women don't belong in combat aircraft. That? That's old school, right there. My position is the progressive one, but it's based on logic, not emotion.

I wish I could get you and my dad together just to see what happens. I tire of debates rather quickly, but he's relentless. LOL!

Oh, and since this is a movie blog, I guess I should tie a movie in here: Pvt. Vasquez from Aliens is what I'm talking about. ;^)

If you would like to learn about logic, I have some books I could recommend. Otherwise, I'll let you have the last word and allow the readers to come to their own conclusions as to the relative merits of our positions.

Nothing, NOTHING, is more frightening than a petite, pretty female Drill Sargeant. the horror…the horror…

Patti:
The problem with admitting women into the Armor Branch is that as a soldier in a tank unit matures they move up the roster on positions.
I beleive (I was infantry, not armor – but in in armored division) that a person assigned to a tank starts out as the loader of the main gun and is forcced to manhandle 100 lb 120MM high explosive rounds from the ammo storage rack intot he breach as fast as humanly possible. THe faster the round is loaded, the faster the gun can be fired and in combat that speed is key to continued life.

After being a loader, you move to the driver position. After driver you become the gunner. After gunner you become the tank commander.

We used to say that tankers have big arms and little legs since they never seem to get off the tank.

I used to visit West Point often when my brother attended, shortly after women were admitted.

There was one female cadet that I would see occasionally. Any time one of my brother's classmates was near me they point her out and mention that she had passed the original physical requirements that were in place before the reduced requirements that allowed women to join. They said it with almost reverential tone.

The cadets I talked to were not against women at West Point, just reducing requirements to allow more women into West Point.

Kipling said it long ago: The Female of the Species is more deadly than the Male. http://www.potw.org/archive/potw96.html

Rules are about generalities, but when you come down to actually killing, there's nothing general about it. It's personal and ugly. And if the person fighting beside you can do what needs to be done, that's the bottom line.

I wonder what offends liberals most about this trailer…the fact that a woman is not acting as a victim, the fact that she's spreading democracy to people of color that liberals think can't handle it, the war aspect, the fact that she's not wearing a burqa, or the fact that she's smoking?

If you think that female members on door-to-door searches in Iraq was pointless PR purposes, I'm probably not the one who needs lectures on logic.

No PR or PC motivation led to assigning those women to those units, in fact, I'm pretty sure it was done mostly on the quiet to get around the rules about women in combat… because women had something necessary to the mission.

I'm sure you'll agree that the mission comes first?

And here's a salute to your father. As I say that, however, please do take into account that Air Force enlisted are notoriously willing to tell Air Force Pilots where to go.

In my 20 years (and counting) I've worked with capable, and not so capable, women. The same goes for men. It isn't a question about whether they can do what a man can do.
For me, like others, it comes down to physical characteristics… many more men make better Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines (i.e., warriors) than women do. I typed 'many more' for a reason. Not just a few more… many more.
It may be sexist for me, but I'd rather women remain… well, women.

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