Appeasement Doesn’t Work: Fatwa Issued Against ‘Draw Mohammed Day’ Cartoonist
by Edward ClineThe Islamists mean to censor us one way or another: if not from fear of retaliation, then by retaliation. Shut your mouth, still your pens, stop thinking, or we will do it for you. Permanently.
Molly Norris, mild-mannered cartoonist, started a fire she cannot put out. As Rick Santelli’s “rant” on TV from the floor of the Chicago Board of Trade fueled the Tea Party, Norris inspired thousands revolt against Islam. In a desiderative whim, she drew innocuous, refrigerator-door magnet caliber pictures which she claimed were images of Mohammad: a spool of thread, a teacup, a spoon, and other mundane things. Overall, they looked more like idle doodles than passionate expressions of the freedom of speech. She posted them in protest of Viacom’s Comedy Central forbidding its cartoon show, “South Park,“ to depict Mohammad in a bear suit.

That spawned the immensely popular “Everybody Draw Mohammed Day!” on Facebook. And thousands did draw. It is interesting to note that one can invite people to “draw Lincoln,” and we would see images of Lincoln ranging from good to unrecognizable. But how does one draw an image of a person whose face has never been seen, except in imagination? Imagination took hold.
Numerous responses have appeared on Facebook where artists comment, “We have reached 50,000 members. As the news of the rebellion against the attacks to our liberties are heard, brave people join the campaign to stave of those who would annihilate that which we believe in, freedom. Thomas Jefferson’s quote is also on the Facebook page. “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.”
Americans and their friends across the globe responded en masse. The defiance was overwhelming, producing more cartoons than the Danish could draw, many of them ingenious. For a while, everyone was a Guy Fawkes, or a Paul Revere, or a Joan of Arc.
But — Molly Norris was criticized. Islam answered. Muslims demonstrated. Shut up. Molly Norris recanted. She didn’t mean to offend Muslims. She was only expressing her right to freedom of speech. But — Molly Norris was criticized. Islam answered. Muslims demonstrated. Shut up.
Too late. Contrition doesn’t carry much weight in Islam. No one has a right to offend Islam, or blaspheme against it. Whether Mohammad is depicted as a pedophilic ogre, as a knock-off of Charlton Heston’s Moses, or as a teacup, it matters not. It is forbidden. “Sorry” doesn’t cut it. Facebook also caved to Muslim demands and took down the page.
A fatwa has been issued against her and anyone who participated in Everybody Draw Mohammad Day. It appeared in an Al Qada online “magazine” and was issued by a former American turned Muslim cleric, Anwar Al-Awlaki, who now lives in hiding in Yemen. Molly Norris is now a “prime target” to be murdered.
“A cartoonist out of Seattle, Washington, named Molly Norris started the ‘Everyone Draw Mohammed Day,’” the article attributed to the radical Yemeni cleric says. “She should be taken as a prime target of assassination, along with others who participated in her campaign. “The large number of participants makes it easier for us because there are many targets to choose from,” reads the article in the magazine of Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, or AQAP.
The killings should not, however, be limited to “Draw Mohammed” participants, the article says. “Because (participants) are practicing a ‘right’ that is defended by the law, they have the backing of the entire Western political system. This would make… attacking any Western target legal from an Islamic viewpoint.”
Molly Norris should know that Islamic “legality” is consistently, irratinal and brutal. It is not a matter of a slap on the wrist and a fine. Submission to Islam must be total — or not at all. The “justice” metted out to those who only partially submit is perilous. Even Muslims are not exempt from it.
So, Molly Norris’s life, and that of anyone who drew Mohammad on Facebook, is in danger. So is the right to freedom of speech. The law that defends it is also fair game. The First Amendment is targeted for assassination, as well, not only by President Barack Obama’s wannabe censors, but by Islamists who want to replace the Constitution with Sharia law. Anwar All-Whacky is just as determined to see censorship imposed as is Cass Sunstein (by government force) or Stanley Fish (censorship by proxy). Excuse the mocking nickname; my powers of illustration fail me.
Stanley Fish, self-appointed academic ombudsman of free speech, quibbles about the use of the term censorship, not understanding, or not wishing to understand, that if fear results in the silencing of speech — a fear sired by the threat of direct force, or of a costly, ruinous lawsuit — that is as much censorship as the employment of force itself.
So what Random House did was not censorship. (Some other press is perfectly free to publish Jones’s book, and one probably will.) It may have been cowardly or alarmist, or it may have been good business, or it may have been an attempt to avoid trouble that ended up buying trouble. But whatever it was, it doesn’t rise to the level of constitutional or philosophical concern. And it is certainly not an episode in some “showdown between Islam and the Western tradition of free speech.” Formulations like that at once inflate a minor business decision and trivialize something too important and complex to be reduced to a high-school civics lesson about the glories of the First Amendment.
Fish manages to denigrate not only Salman Rushdie in his New York Times piece, but also business itself. He has no grasp of what is fundamentally of “constitutional or philosophical concern.” It’s all so trivial, nothing to get worked up about. Save your concern for something important. And that would be…?
“The large number of participants makes it easier for us because there are many targets to choose from,” boasted All-Whacky. True. How are he and his American proxies going to find and slay 50,000 offenders? No problem. He has designated any Western target for destruction. Perhaps someone who “drew Mohammad” will be one of the bomb victims.
How better to vitiate the First Amendment than to frighten men from upholding it? Those who refrain from drawing Mohammad, or from satirizing him and his Moonie-like flocks in word or deed out of “respect” or “tolerance,” or from sheer funk, or who counsel others to refrain, are just as culpable in the loss of that liberty as any Washington censor or duty-bound Muslim.
Of course, one needn’t have drawn Mohammad to become a prime target for assassination. Watching a soccer match in Uganda is also a punishable offense. Or publishing an Islam-friendly novel about the adventures of Mohammad’s child bride – without illustrations. Or an imageless history of the images of Mohammad. Or employing terms that identify the enemy in national security reports (that would be “profiling” a “religion of peace”).
Those who drew Mohammad last spring cannot all go into hiding, as doubtless Molly Norris must now do. The FBI has advised her to take the threat seriously. There are countless Muslims — itinerate loners or residents of Muslim enclaves in this country or the patrons of the proposed Ground Zero Mosque — willing to do All-Whacky’s bidding. We are at war with Islam, and the enemy is amongst us.
Is America fated to become a nation-in-hiding? You, the reader, decide. Our government will not acknowledge the war declared against us. It is up to Americans acknowledge it, and to never surrender this country to Islam or to its secular, Obama-esque form — to never let it go.






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119 Comments
If memory serves this guy in Yemen is a dead man walking. As far as his, whatever you call it, he can stick that plus a tomahawk up his rectum.
"Those who refrain from drawing Mohammad… are just as culpable in the loss of that liberty as any Washington censor or duty-bound Muslim."
So since I thought drawing Mohammad was a dumb idea and didn't participate and encouraged others not to, I am responsible for loss of liberty?
Sorry, I don't buy that. I have no illusions that if given a chance some fundamentalist will kill me and everyone I love, irrespective of my artistic efforts. I just don't feel the need to denegrate what others believe to be sacred.
What does that accomplish? Freedom of speech works both ways.
This is a clear lesson that appeasement does NOT work. Molly, arm yourself. Learn to shoot a gun with accuracy and how to defend yourself hand-to-hand — I recommend Krav Magaw (I'm certain there's a class near you). And don't ever again think you're dealing with a rational mindset when encountering Islam. There is nothing rational about that death cult.
I am so SICK of this crap! This is just another example that the only way these people know how to express themselves is through fanatical violence! I pray to God that those who drew that terrorist remain safe. We need a President who will actually DO something against fatwa threats, and takes them seriously!
and another thing . . . if you want to turn this war on terrorism into a religious war . . . that would be Islam's worst mistake it ever made on the chessboard of time.
Freedom of speech does indeed work both ways. Unfortunately, what the Islamofacists are practicing is NOT free speech. It is intimidation and terrorism at its most base.
You need not denigrate their prophet, you need only to depict him. You could have painted the most flattering portrait of him and the response would have been the same.
Let's admit it, this has nothing to do with depictions of Mohammed. This is yet another excuse these animals use to somehow justify their murderous behavior.
This is a global, fatal version of the schoolyard bully, and we know the ONLY way to stop the bully is to call his bluff. People will die, but they will anyway. Just ask Ms Norris. All her recantations and apologies and she still has a price on her head. Better to have not apologized.
I second. This recommendation. Glock 19 and lots of practice.
Very well put too. I saw no reason to insult the Muslims who live in my town, who by all accounts seem to be perfectly reasonable, peaceful citizens.
I loved the way Chris Muir did it in his comic at BH. The Mohamed Rorschach test. It met the issue head on, but in a respectful way. I thought it was brilliant.
Agreed. If Muslims think they have a history of religious war some one should fill them in on Europe's history.
I'm conflicted on this one. I can understand the urge to demonstrate by drawing cartoons. But that also insults millions of Muslims who are peaceful. Which would put me on par with that idiot who put a crucifix in a jar of urine to shock the Vatican.
There has to be a way to accomplish the same goal with out hurting the innocent. That's what separates us from terrorist scum. They don't care. We are better than that.
Which is exactly what Al-whackjob said in the last line of his fatwa. We've all had one over our heads since the beginning of fatwas. It's their way.
This will go on until we do to them what we did to the Japanese, kill as many as we can and not stop until they cry "uncle." The only thing they seem to understand is suicide so let's accomodate them until they have had their fill.
Humor is the final measure of peace in life. If we cant laugh at our most sacred beliefs then war is not far away. I miss the days of Pryor, Murphy, and Williams. If killing human beings over cartoons is now acceptable to an entire religion on the planet Earth, than you can count me in in the fight. I will be fighting for the right to laugh at mohammed. Why? Because only then will there be peace.
How is this different from any other day? The Islamists want to kill us all, about time more people wake up to the sword of Damocles hanging over our collective heads. There are no peaceful muslims, only those tolerating the messages of hate and violence.
When was the last time a woman was stoned in the west on the hearsay testimony of 2-3 other men? Welcome to the real world friends. No more unicorns and rainbows.
Come get me, you illiterate, amoral, pedophiliac pieces of filth. I beg of you. make it quick, because I'm running out of koran pages with which to wipe myself.
Send me a PM and I'll be more than happy to send you my address.
You'd better bring more than a rusty machete, though. I live in an east L.A. barrio, and I'm pretty sure the cholos and homeboys are a heckuva lot better strapped than you 12th century, falafel-bending, camel-blowing idiots are.
I'll even do you the courtesy of allowing you to pray to whatever non-existant deity you choose, just before you're made into a grease stain in my driveway.
islam is the religion of pigs, and your "prophet" is at present spending eternity with his corn hole being used as Satan's umbrella stand. if you don't believe me, I'll gladly draw you a picture of it.
Obama is the flesh and blood version of a unicorn to the left.
I sense an Obi Wan Kenobi scene: "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
God bless and protect Molly Norris. But, dang! If something "mysterious" happens to her now… how could America remain silent!?
mohammad had sex with pigs.muslims are the devils workers on earth.
There's a movie in this!
The MSM would play it like Ft. Hood & Times Square. Who ever harmed her would be distanced from the Mohammedism by the media.
Will Eric (the ball) Holder see fit to address this?????
Sure. He will forward the address to Abu Al Shamazz.
I drew Mo. Come and get me.
Islam is an inherantly fundamentalist theopolitical worldview filled with violent batsh*t insanity. All "real" Muslims from a doctrinal standpoint hate and want you dead because you aren't subservient to their evil moon god*. The ones who don't are the Muslim equivalent of the people who say "Well, I was born Catholic, but…"
There seems no point in trying to apologize to the murderous cultists who worship Mohammed (who may or may not be Muslims–it seems there ARE those the label 'Mohammadans" applies to with absolute accuracy).
The only possible course of action seems to be to double-down, like so, like so, and like so.
Poor Molly Norris didn't even DRAW Mohammed, and the idol-worshipers still want to kill her.
"The killings should not, however, be limited to “Draw Mohammed” participants, the article says. “Because (participants) are practicing a ‘right’ that is defended by the law, they have the backing of the entire Western political system. This would make… attacking any Western target legal from an Islamic viewpoint.”
Well allrighty then, the fatwa is against everyone in the world (Nothing new). Now, no more fatwas will be forthcoming because they'd be redundant… ha, ha.
Come on over to my house; Meet my friends Winchester, Colt, Smith, Wesson, and Remington.
Molly Norris, mild-mannered cartoonist and card carrying liberal may believe in free speech and freedom but she will not fight for it. She folded like a cheap tent the minute Islam and it's adherent's complained about her little project. She made all kinds of excuses for her outburst and tried to mend fences with the Muslim community but in the end what did that accomplish?
The thing she can't comprehend is that we in the west are at a crossroads in our history. Islam want's to destroy us and enslave us and they are doing so incrementally. Soft headed, politically correct multi-cultists and cocooned liberals like Norris think all cultures and religions are equal.
Remember Islam is the only religion that issues death edicts and pandering and pleading with them will only strengthen their cause. Always remember there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim…They all read from the same Koran.
Part of having free speech is alowing to be insulted. Don't like Maplethorpe, but I'm not calling on all Christians to kill those who view his works. And if I did, I think my fellow Christians (rightfully) would be among the first to kick my ***.
Please point out even one of those imaginary ":peaceful" Muslims.
Any Muslim who isn't waging violent jihad is waging stealth jihad.
Mel Gibson can direct it!
Mohammed? I seen him just this morning, that was up until I flushed the toilet. I highly doubt anyone will want to see a drawing of THAT!!!
This is a very tiny drawing of Mohammed eating bacon while asking Jesus Christ to forgive him for blasphemy:
.
Now what we need is an Islamic reformation, or we will soon see Islam fall the way of Zoroastrianism.
The small community about four blocks away from my house. Since they started moving in crime in the neighborhood has plummeted. They snapping the apts. and houses that drug dealers and crack addicts were living in.
They hold an open house every couple of months and allow the entire community come in and see what they're doing, and the Imam's been over to my Church giving talks on Islam and their customs and traditions.
Last year they finally joined the rest of the ethnic groups and started a public festival celebrating the end of Ramadan. The held a parade, open house, a fair, rides for kids, the whole nine yards. I didn't attend because my daughter is past the age of kiddie rides.
I also think that, if it's a mortal sin to create or display an image of Mohammed, then it should also be a mortal sin to name your child or yourself Mohammed. I mean, aren't you then a living, breathing image of Mohammed? So, everyone in the world named Mohammed and the folks that named them should be under this fatwa as well.
I participated in Draw Mohammed Day. I guess that means there is a fatwa out against me. Ha! Yep, mom and dad will be so proud. That was one of my goals in life: to draw a simple, silly picture and then have millions of people want to kill me for it. Of course, I guess they want to kill me every day in the summer when I walk around in shorts or wear a bikini. Or when my boyfriend spends the night. Yep, that's me. A regular hellion, a rabble-rouser deserving of death.
And for those people who thought Draw Mohammed was a bad idea because they didn't think offending people was a good way to stand up for free speech — BITE ME! Anyone who believes that a human being should be MURDERED because he or she drew a stupid little picture, is NOT deserving of the same respect afforded civilized human beings because they are NOT civilized human beings. In fact, anyone who would murder a person over a drawing is NOT a human being at all!
You are not alone. Take gun courses, you will learn to use the gun quickly, efficiently, and with a sense of pride. Holding a gun, when learned the right way, is freedom. …From Tyranny. Revolvers are the easiest to maintain, 1 hidden near your front door! 1 in the kitchen… that sort of thing. And do 'dry run' practices. Unload, practice dry firing, every so often.
Radical anything, only needs about 5% to be radical, the rest MUST not be radical, they must be enslaved & submissive & peaceful. To feed, clothe and draw numbers for the Radicals. Islam is that perfect setup.
Al-Awlaki is coward who won;t even do his own killing. I drew Muhamed too, and al-Awlaki can go Cheney himself.
Well, I'm glad Stanley Fish is there to tell us this infringement of our freedoms doesn't really matter and our outrage over this issue is trivial. I would call this man a fifth-columnist, but that would almost make him sound noble.
Wow, that's nice to see. I wish they would more vocally protest the Islamofasicsts, but you can't have everything… they and their families would also become targets.
True, but Muir already took a (completely justified) shot at Mohammed in an earlier DBD strip, so it's not as though he had anything to prove.
I can agree with you–but only up to a point. The Islamic fundamentalists are the ones who made this an issue, not us. Sure, if left to my own devices I would never draw a picture of Mohammed, and I would consider it rude for others to do so. I believe their religion is wrong, but that doesn't mean I have to thumb my nose at them.
But when these &%^?*! start threatening to kill us if we don't respect their religion, and in all sorts of gory ways, then I say, by that very act, they have lost the right to have their beliefs respected. The moderate Muslims are a different story, but they need to start speaking up and publicly denouncing these threats. Otherwise, one might take their silence for tacit approval, in which case their beliefs don't deserve to be respected either.
Sorry Edski. Wait until they get the whole neighborhood and then try to have a civil discourse with them. Guess again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEPod-hxD7g
I can see both sides of the issue, but as I said in my reply to Buckwheat above, I tend to come down on the side of the draw-ers (if that's a word). I wouldn't normally have any inclination to draw pictures of Mohammed, but the fundamentalists are the ones who made this an issue. By threatening to kill us, they've lost the right to have their religion respected.
Moderates? I don't know. I think this question speaks to the confusion we face in the War on Terror. Are the Islamofascists some terrible corruption of Islam, or is there something fundamentally (so to speak) wrong with the religion itself? You might want to speak to this imam or the Muslim families in your neighborhood, if it comes up, to see what they think of all this.
Awesome!
I would like to see them decry terrorist acts louder than they do. But they are being very open about who they are, and what they're doing. And they are trying to integrate into the community. Which I find promising.
They've pretty much had the entire neighborhood for the last 4 or 5 years.
As long as we all understand the rules, we can all play…lock & load!
I have not yet drawn a picture of this child molester. I have, however, cursed him and his followers for years. I enjoy being an enemy of such an ignorant set of principles as quoted in the Koran. I abhor the ignorance of denying human nature and its progressions into the future. No other religion, that I can think of, wishes it's devotees to live in squalor and never accomplish anything other than the worship of their own misguided false deity! Complete tyranny, thy name is the Muslim faith!
Rolly
that to me is the real issue. Those who stubbornly hold to the idea that Islam is peaceful are being betrayed by the silent moderate Muslims.
While i don't feel the need to condemn every member of that faith, until more members of it demand reformation by their more extreme brethren, i won't rail too heavilly on the non muslims who do.
I started learning everything I could about Islam on 9/12/01. And it seems to me this is an internal civil war that's been going on since pretty much the moment Mohamed died.
Due to the stunning poverty of the entire region, they pretty much were just fighting among themselves. But with globalization, cheaper travel, and the ability to travel the world, they've brought the fighting with them. I heard an interview with a Muslim scholar on the Daily Show (back when I used to watch it) and she basically said the reason they're involving America is simply because they can.
There is a small (but still sizable) faction that completely believes all this crap about subjecting the entire world to fundamentalists version of Islam, and their major opponents are Muslims who want no part of it.
This is their war.
There are plenty of Muslims who don't like America, and they do have a legitimate beef in my opinion. The US has been propping up dictators through out that region, saddam, the Shah, the rulers in Egypt, and most importantly the Saudi family. Remember, when those dictators turn their armies on the citizens, they're usually using weapons bought from America.
But that hatred doesn't necessarily translate into violence.
When it comes to alqeada what they really want is the Saudi Family killed and bin looser installed as the head of the Caliphate. What that gives them is control of the Saudi army, the Saudi oil money, and most importantly of all, Mecca and Medina. Who ever hold those two sites is the defacto head of Islam.
If he can get that, then he basically sets the rules for 1.6 billion Muslims. Or so he thinks.
Whats the "CONFLICT" here? These allahdamned people need to quit finding people to kill..
The radical muslims are still stuck in their dark ages. They are a pack of savages. As Lawrence put it:
"….Greedy barbarous and cruel"
You don't reason with a rabid dog, you take it behind the shed and put it down before it hurts someone. I'm not going to lump all muslims in this group as I know a few that are genuinely kind and decent people. What bothers me is that there no "moderate" muslim demonstrations against the radicals. They could demonstrate here in the USA publicly so that those of us sitting on the fence whether or not to hate all muslims can see there are good ones out there.
Until the moderates do that, we really have no choice but to presume they all want to harm us
I believe that such people exist, and I'm glad that they do. I have no ill will toward those who wish to peacefully worship Allah (though, as a Christian, I do want to respectfully challenge their beliefs), and I welcome them as fellow Americans. However, I have to wonder if they are, as Ummmm mentioned above, the equivalent of people who say "I was born Catholic but…" Does Islam demand the submission of we infidels to living under sharia law? Does Islam command the faithful to slay the unbeliever? Are the "moderate" Muslims you describe living under a version of Islam that they've modified?
It's a sticky situation because integral to the Constitution is the freedom to follow what religion one chooses, and America was colonized in part to escape religious warfare, but Islam contains within it a political structure as well as a religious structure, and that structure is not compatible with our republic. The US has pushed religion to alter its practices before (the Mormon practice of polygamy), so I think it's possible for us to outlaw Islam's less savory practices as well. But that's still a massive hurdle for the American people to leap, especially in this age of multiculturalism and relativism. I'm somewhat nervous about the idea, myself, though I think it may become necessary. If the government decided that Christianity had to change in order to remain in the U.S., I'd want to fight it with every fiber of my being. I say that not to equate Christianity with Islam, but to illustrate the religious mindset of setting obedience to God above obedience to nation. I expect it may be a tough battle.
Many of us in the West have become lackadaisical about the specifics of religions, because we have a tendency to view things through a secular lens and lump all religions into one big category without examining the things that make them different from one another. Islam demonstrates that we must examine its details. If we are going to fight this war, we have to know what we're dealing with.
Thanks for the well reasoned reply.
I would have to say most of Islam's more sordid parts are already clearly illegal in America.
Here's an example of what I'm trying to say. On 9/11, and the days following. Remember the scenes from around the world to show their reaction? One was a group family in Egypt were cheering wildly. That was disturbing indeed.
But that family showed back up on the news a couple of days later. They profusely apologized and said they weren't cheering the destruction and death in America. What they were cheering about is finally Americans had some idea what they've had to live with their entire lives. They were cheering because they knew America could no longer pretend all these attacks were some one else's problem half a world away.
They cheered because America would finally fix this problem. They wanted the Americans to help them bring this finally to an end.
Yes, there are moderate Muslims. And I don't mean their definition of moderate, but ours.
you're a brave man, Buckwheat…
We, too, have gone down this road. Powerful forces on BOTH sides are trying to stir up hatred so we can feel 'good' about the upcoming war.
War is never anything to feel good about- and this one could be quite nasty. Of the billion or so Muslims out there maybe 5 or 6% mean us harm. They need to be rooted out, marginalized- and when necessary eliminated.
Irradiating the middle east serves no one. And, in the abstract, the handful of terrorists and murderers out there- DOD puts the number of Al Qeda in Afghanistan as less than a thousand- are not enough to cause two civilizations to engage in a massive conflict…
Don't expect many to agree with this; we've taken a ot of heat for this postion before. But we also know a little bit more about the region- and the people- than most. But yours is a principled stand…
That hits the nail right on the head. Well said.
It seems like the moderates are more scared of the fundamentalists than non-muslims. They've got good reason, but still…
That sums things up nicely. The problem I have is that this internal war of theirs seems totally one-sided. Where are the muslims that want no part of the savagery that AQ subscribes to? Why are there no anti-AQ demonstrations by those muslims anywhere?
If it's because they are too scared to do this then can it really be called a war? Haven't they already lost? Are they more comfortable living on their knees than dying on their feet? This to me would be a turning point against the radicals, if the good muslims would just stand up and be counted.
And then you change the channel and watch the Palestinians dancing in the streets to celebrate the mass murder of innocent Americans.
Did any moderates condemn that sincerely? Were there demonstrations in support of us?
Im thinking we should issue a "Fatbroad"or "Fatchick" or Fatsomething" on all these "Fat happy" guys!!!!
Maybe that's why so many want to come to America,to get away from it.
I imagine its quite dangerous to protest anything over there other than America and Israel.
This is also the same game most governments over they play, but for a different end. They use the same excuse to stay in power at what ever cost.
i appreciate your support, but it is not out of courage. I am a coward. I use a fake name on the internet, and have never directly confronted anyone who would see me dead.
It is principles. I believe that everone has the right to worship how, where or what they may. I don't have to believe in or even understand their faith. I also find it abhorrant when my faith or denomination is defamed or belittled. I don't understand how attacking what is sacred to you will make you want to treat me in the manner i wish.
I believe that some people need to be destroyed to prevent further loss of life, but mocking them is unnecessary in my view.
People dont have to like my stance, but there it is.
i believe that any muslim that speaks out is in mortal danger. I can sympathize with the family that just wants to live happily with their neighbors. I wouldn't want to stick my neck out either.
We can all do it on the internet using fake names, but these people face actual mortal danger.
I prefer to respect these families, and to say that I too am against the violent elements within your faith, and let's pray that together we can overcome.
Well, that family in Egypt certainly supported America. They came off very sincere to me.
And also remember, the people in that part of the world are fed a constant stream of anti-American and anti-Israel propaganda. They most certainly don't see any of the goodness of America.
That's one of the major reasons for going into Iraq in my opinion. Certainly saddam was major trouble, but also as American troops leave, and the rest of the countries in that region realize that Islam is incompatible with democracy is a load of crap.
We've knocked down part of the wall that seals all these people into a moral swamp of oppression and tyranny. Now that the sun can shine in, lets see what grows.
A moderate muslim, is not a good muslim unfortunately. Basic teachings of Islam, not radical, but basic are to kill anyone who leaves the religion. The Koran outright orders killing and executions and deception and terror.
You're Muslim community is nice for now. The goal of all Christians in the area, should be to convert them to Christianity… because when they grow large enough… the 1 to 5% radicals do what they always do, they will take hold of and enslave the 'moderate' Muslims. That is the genius of the Islamic religion. And then commit stealth jihad on all around, whilst the Christians openly evangelize and are thusly terrorized…. the world around.
Keep in mind, no one from the Vatican or from a Catholic town sends anyone out with orders to assassinate or make an example of people who put crucifixes in jars of urine.
some would give me grief for my stand, but I believe that the moderates exist. The issue I have is, why expose myself to potential violence from within my faith, when people outside of it are just going to attack me in another way?
nothing cowardly about that…
As a matter of fact we here find it courageous- it is easy to go with the popular jigoism of the moment;
which is 'all of Islam is evil'.
That, of course, is nonsense. Backwards, clueless, badly led- yes.
Evil? Not a billion people…
Lets hope by the time the real radicals try to infiltrate the local ones will have realized just how lucky they are, and how great it is to be here instead of over there, so they're on our side.
As a Christian I can't see any moral reason to hate a group of people who by every visible measurement, aren't doing anything illegal or wrong.
Clearly a complicated issue. I'm not sure if I believe the whole "Islam is a religion of peace" thing. After all, you can open up the Koran and find passages where Mohammed (oh, I forgot, Allah) is basically saying "Kill the infidel wherever you find them," and that mindset was not only played out in the modern era, but in the glory days of Islamic civilization as well. Indeed, I think that may be part of the reason why the moderates aren't speaking out more than they are, because while they differ with the fundamentalists, they seem (to them) to have a point when they quote the holy book.
And I'm not sure I buy that a lot of the terrorists are doing this because America imposed a dictatorship on them. I mean, since when do they care about democracy, especially when the biggest example of it appears to be our own country with its immorality? I think the "because they can" reason you mentioned has a lot to do with it.
I used to follow Muhamed when he went by the name
of "Clay". He was THE champ back in the 60s…and he
remained a force to contend with up through the 70s.
Cowardly? Most of us use fake names here (of course, it's not too hard to guess part of my actual name), so I guess this is just a big cowards' convention.
And hey, I'll just go ahead and say it; I'm probably not going to actually go out and draw a cartoon of Mohammed–ever. Why? Because I'm scared of them. I take these whack jobs at their word when they say they'll chop my head off, and I really don't want to die. What I will do is publish these comments so any fundamentalists perusing this site know there's someone who thinks they're crap and will put that out there, even under a false name. It may be the coward's way out, but it's better than nothing.
Well, there is that, which I hadn't really thought of. I guess if they're trying to live peaceful lives, you can't ask more of them than that.
Speaking of which, there was a book I ran across last year, from a woman whose name I can't recall, but she was an Egyptian who later immigrated to America and eventually converted to Christianity. On 9/11, she called her relatives back in Egypt and talked with them about the attacks, and while her mother, for example, expressed regret at the loss of life, she also asked her daughter, very seriously, "You are aware that the Jews were probably responsible for all of this?" Other relatives expressed outrage that she was spreading the "lie" that Arab Muslims had been behind the attacks.
I don't know if it's ultimately just propaganda, though. I hope it is, but I fear that the version of Islam people like them are committed to simply will not allow them to believe anything about Israel and America other than what they've been told, no matter how much firsthand evidence they receive otherwise.
Leviticus details which sins are punished by stoning. And Joshua is basically the Hebrews following God's promise to basically wipe out the Canaanites.
I've read some of the more inflammatory passages of the Korn, and pretty inflammatory passages in the Bible.
I read Natan Sharansky's book The Case for Democracy, and it was quite enlightening on how dictators keep their grip on power. The standard method is to use propaganda to convince the population there is an external force that will treat them even worse than the dictator does, and then insist the dictator is the only thing standing between the people and the brutal external power.
Democracies are perfect for that foil. In the case of the Middle East the external threat is painted as America and Israel. North Korea does this too. Does anyone outside of North Korea actually think America is ready willing and able to invade them?
Tell it like it is—Men are for fun and women make babies—How does more diluted does Muhammed need to be?
Was it this person?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali
AND ANOTHER THING . . . Mel Brooks made some real funny movies about religion – I think it is time for him to make one about muslims!
I figured you'd bring that up after I posted. I would reply that while parts of the Old Testament are pretty gruesome to us today, much of that was superseded by the New Testament and Christ's message of peace and forgiveness. If I understand right, most of the inflammatory passages in the Koran are the reverse; they are located in the Sura (is it?), towards the end of the book, and those tend to supersede what has come before. Besides, the commandment to the Israelites to slaughter their enemies was specifically directed at those living in Israel, the land God had promised to the Hebrews. And they got pretty much the same treatment, if you recall, when they failed to live up to their end of the bargain.
Sharansky does make sense, though, on how dictators keep power. Invoking the rhetoric of "defending home and hearth" where you can doesn't hurt, either. (On a side note, though, I actually wish we would invade North Korea and get rid of the thing.)
How come no cartoons have surfaced showing Muhammed for the fine role model he obviously was—I reckon if I was a fine upstanding Muslim–My "cherry" would have been broken at the age of 8
Can "Muhammed" be a pizza?—-
No, though I've heard of her also, and she does have a fascinating story. I wish I could remember the woman's name or her book, but I haven't checked it out in a long time. All I can remember for sure is that the woman is Egyptian and that her father was active in the Egyptian government for a time and died a hero fighting the Israelis in one of the wars. She lives in California now, if I remember right. If I track her name down, I'll let you know.
You can pray in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled first…..
What good is speaking out against the violent factions if you don't do it loudly enough to be heard? I don't want anyone to get hurt either, and I can only imagine the risk these families face for speaking out. I have no right to demand they put their loved ones in harm's way.
BUT
How's that expression go about watering the tree of liberty? If all of us want to stop being afraid of getting murdered for speaking openly against the savages, someone has to start, and IMHO it has to be a muslim. Many muslims. Otherwise this will go on until they win and none of us are free.
Yep, I've been using that example for some time now. I use that to prove that religions with violent pasts can reform for a new era. It's a precedent.
I've never attempted to read the Koran, heck still working on the Bible. But I do know two things about it. The Koran isn't written in chronological order like the Old Testament. It's ordered like the Catholic Letters of the New Testament, longest writings first, shorter ones in the back.
That and the Koran is more than just a book to Muslims. In my reading of various religions, all religions have at least one thing in common, the manifestation of God. That manifestation is when God makes his physical presence on earth known for all to see.
For the Jews it was the existence of the Temple. In that room, in that building is where God is when God is on earth. For Christians its Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus.
For Muslims its the very existence of the Koran. It's the reason they get so fanatical about it. It's proof God exists.
Which is one reason that its going to be so difficult for Muslims to reform their religion. Another reason its so difficult is there is no hierarchy in Islam, every person is technically their own Imam. There's no equivalent of a Pope who can tell them to knock it off or else, like John Paul II did with liberation theology in Latin America. Eventually he even excommunicated a few priests over it.
I read some of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's writings and she mentions a nearly identical occurrence when she returned home for a visit.
Her cousin tried to tell her the Jews were running the entire non-Muslim world. She replied she'd been to ovens at the concentration camps, she's seen it herself. And her cousin said the Jews use evil magic to hide what they're doing from the eyes of non Jews.
Ok, so if that's a reason many come here, then why no demonstrations here where they are much more safe than over there? If so many of them want to be American muslims, and they value freedom and our way of life, then why is the silence so deafening?
I won't argue with that
Sadly it seems that more death is the only solution left.
It has happened in the past, and only overwhelming force worked.
So, I have no argument with war to destroy this faction. I just wish we and they didn't have to suffer this horror.
But i still don't see the value in demeaning the religion.
I'm not pretending I understand Muslims, Islam or the mind set of the middle east. What I have observed are the ones in this neighborhood, and they seem very keen on integrating into the community, and I think that's a very positive thing.
America can seem like a pretty hostile environment to new immigrants. Over at the Ancient Order of Hibernians hall they proudly show off a framed antique sign "No Irish Allowed."
When my Slovak relatives showed up, the Irish used to beat the crap out of them because the Slovaks were allowed to use the Irish Catholic church till they could raise enough money to build their own.
I can imagine many people come to America expect to find the streets paved with gold, and money from heaven. I don't think they understand the concept that the American dream is built on equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.
I have no doubt there are plenty of violent ones already in America. Those are the ones we should worry about, not the peaceful ones who are still working at building their American lives.
Now that would be a fascinating conversation. One might point out to her cousin that by invoking magic and illusions to explain away the concentration camps, he is making it impossible to have a rational debate and thus cannot be taken seriously. But then one would like to keep one's head (literally).
There is no value in demeaning a religion. But it is a powerful way to express displeasure with a culture that nutures intolerance and violence. If you want to offend a radical muslim, you don't buy him ice cream….
And you are right, only more death will put an end to this. And yes it is sad and frustrating that there are still people on this planet bent on barbarism to get their way. The biggest problem right now is apathy. World-wide apathy. England has Sharia courts for chrissakes! They're building a G-D mosque overlooking Ground Freakin Zero!! Slowly but surely the rest of the world is losing it's cultures and everyone is too afraid to hurt their feelings to do anything about it.
So while I'm not necessarily in favor of insulting anyone's religion, I am in favor of making it known that Islam and Sharia law are incompatible with America. And if that means some muslims will furrow their brows and get offended, then so be it. No one seems to mind offending Americans, time for a taste of their own medicine.
Then isn't it in their best interests to speak out against the violent ones too? What good is building an American life when fellow muslims are there to destroy it? I have no doubt that a lot of the peaceful muslims know exactly who and where the radicals are in this country. And I can completely understand their fear of speaking out.
BUT
I would be more afraid of what would happen to my daughter if this is allowed to continue. Would she be stoned to death for some relativley trivial offense? Would my son be recruited into "martyrdom"?
Again, I have no right to ask someone else to stick their neck out like that, but if what you say is true then muslims who like it here and like what America has to offer need to do SOMETHING.
And I wonder why people mock me when I call it the "So called 'religion of peace'". There is nothing peaceful about it. They are basically saying "Do what I want or die".
Agreed. I like to think what they're doing over at the Muslim center is a good start towards that very goal.
I don't want to discourage it, I want to encourage it. Judging by the names I see in letters to the editors, they seem more interested in ObamaCare than jihad.
I'd say, again, only judging from what I assume are probably Muslim based on nothing more than the name, support was about one third against, two thirds for.
Are we a nation in hiding? I'd personally say "yes and no". From my own observations, our "leadership" and its die-hard supporters want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that appeasing our enemies by not speaking ill of them will make them just go away. In that case, it's a "yes". But at the same time, there's a lot of people who prefer to tell it like it is and stand up to our enemies, so that's a reason to say "no".
I guess you could say it depends upon which part of the nation you're looking at when you ask that question.
For those in doubt about the evil of the enemy, think of the Koran as the Mein Kampf of Islam. Hitler was Nazism’s Mohammad. Remember that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem admired Hitler. He and Hitler met. They hatched plans for Germany to help Arabs exterminate Jews in Palestine (when that whole region was called Palestine). Fortunately, Hitler’s military set-backs in Russia and North Africa scotched that plan. There were, however, Muslim brigades in the German army, recruited in Bosnia. Ask yourself if you could “respect” a creed whose high priest admired Nazism. Its high priests still do.
no fakes here…
Just some individuals who have something to say and guard their privacy- for a multitude of reasons. We wouldn't draw pictures of them just like we don't want people pissing on a Crucifix and calling it 'free speech'.
It is- for both- and it is disrespectful. Period.
People are thumbing us both down for this; oh well. You can't please all of the people all of the time…
That's great to hear Ed, but they sound more like the exception, not the rule.
Or she would be blamed for whatever happens to her as she 'insulted a whole religion' and the victim would become the criminal and the criminal would be the victim.
I do remember that when 9/11 happened, a friend of mine was in Egypt. When she came back, she talked about how so many strangers came up to her and expressed their sympathies.
Mind you, she also complained about the fact that she got propositioned a number of times by Egyptian men who seemed to think she was a prostitute because she was an American woman, but on that particular day she heard a lot of sympathy for America.
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