Selling ObamaCare: The True Religion of the Left is Pragmatism
by Doug TenNapelOn August 19th, President Obama conducted an Internet conference to draw support from faith leaders for his health care package. He used explicit, religious language to engage the audience, ”I know there’s been a lot of misinformation in this debate. And there are some folks out here who are, frankly, bearing false witness.”
“Thou shalt not bear false witness…” Sounds familiar. That would be one of the Ten Commandments liberal judges say cannot be posted in public schools, or on government monuments because that would be an establishment of religion by the US Government.
Here’s the President of this pluralist, secular, democracy paraphrasing Cain and Abel found in the book of Genesis: “…what I consider to be a core ethical and moral obligation that we look out for one another, that I am my brother’s keeper and I am my sister’s keeper.”
We have a moral obligation? So now we can legislate morality. Check.
I’m not even sure what Obama means by this, “We are God’s partners in matters of life and death,” I was kind of hoping he still thought it was above his pay grade.
“Should” is a moral word —a philosophical one. You can’t weigh it in a lab, it cannot be found in the materials. So to tell America’s (liberal) religious leaders to spread the word that we should pass the President’s health care plan, he’s pushing a value from his office as the president.
I love it.
He’s actually living out what the left has railed against when a Republican refuses to divorce their religion from their political decisions. I just wanted to mark this day that the POTUS used his state position to disperse a religious, philosophical point of view…and all I can hear from the ACLU are crickets chirping. NAMBLA-defending crickets.
I smell a rat. It’s implied that when Republicans call up religious support that we are just doing it to manipulate the Gods-n-guns folks. When Bush reaches out to faith leaders it’s duplicitous and inherently manipulative. But when the left does it, it’s genuine — they have somehow divined the true spirit of Christ in our political discourse. The right is pandering to faith communities while the left is reaching out to faith communities.
Obama even comports himself like a charismatic preacher. That’s his rhetorical style. Hillary channeled black preachers when speaking in the South. John Kerry took many a photo op in front of huge robed choirs when touting his own religion while running against Bush. Bill Clinton and the Baptist Al Gore did the same. So why is it that when Obama quotes the book of Matthew he’s not a threat but a journalist has a heart attack because he heard from a source who heard from a source who heard from a source that Bush had an active prayer life with Jesus?
The answer is simple, the true religion of the left is pragmatism, and even the Christianity they hate will be embraced so long as it gets them to their leftist, Utopian goals. That’s why a Republican can be gay, a woman, a black man, a poor fellow, and they are still demonized. The left doesn’t hate blacks. It’s that they love their own ends more than any standard, value or government. If turning a blind eye to the horrors of Islamists is useful, then so be it. But don’t think that they actually embrace Christianity. Because as soon as a Republican Christian is in office it will be back to “Jesusland” and “God-n-guns” rhetoric.
Cindy Sheehan told Byron York, “The ‘anti-war’ ‘left’ was used by the Democratic Party. I like to call it the “anti-Republican War’ movement.” But Cindy didn’t go far enough. Because they won’t just use the anti-war left, but the Democratic Party will use Christians, gays, Mormons, terrorists, body-counts, Republicans (Specter), southerners, high unemployment, low unemployment to achieve their means. And as soon as they’re done using any of these in the back seat of the Donkey Van the same groups are discarded. Cindy Sheehan who?
It’s not the practice of religion that the left hates about conservatives any more than it was the practice of war for why they hated Bush. It’s that they hate conservatives so much that their practice of religion, war or tiddlywinks will be cast in the darkest shade possible.
But as for me and my house, we welcome religion into our politics. I just want the left to remember this day where with this posting I supported the President’s reaching out to lefty religious people.
Religious politicians acting on their faith is not an establishment of a government church, nor was it when Bush did it.
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140 Comments
Barry would embrace the devil himself, if it increased his power. His faux pleading with “certain” Christians is typical leftist hog twaddle, and the good news is nobody believes him any longer, except of coarse the truly worthless parasites in our society.
Cindy has learned the hard lesson that most of the people who supported her don't in fact have any problems with a war, as long as there's a Democrat in charge of it.
“Should” is a moral word —a philosophical one. You can’t weigh it in a lab, it cannot be found in the materials. So to tell America’s (liberal) religious leaders to spread the word that we should pass the President’s health care plan, he’s pushing a value from his office as the president.
Mr. TenNapel,
Thanks to decades of public school "edumacation" that has taught people what to think instead of how to think, most of America will never read your words and many will not understand what you mean.
Yay! Teachers's Unions…thanks for nothing.
What bothered me about Obama's comments to the ministers was the blatant hypocrisy. Suddenly, when he needs the support of the Chrisitans, he's spouting scripture and standing on the side of God, as if he's been an active church-going Christian all along. Doesn't he realize that Christians (and others) can spot hypocrisy a mile away? A large part of being Christian means adhering to your beliefs even when it's inconvenient and unpopular. People who put on and take off their religious values like an old coat offend those of us who struggle to follow our beliefs every hour of every day.
You want to see what they're really doing? Here it is.
Cain's comment about not being his brothers keeper was a sarcastic comment and a play on words regarding Abel as a keeper of sheep. It is hardly the justification for big intrusive government and forced confiscation of my money in the name of charity. I have heard other people on the left quote Leviticus in support of the program as well. I wonder if they also support the theocracy that the levitical codes created in ancient Israel.
Who was it said, or words to the effect, "Even the Devil can quote scriture to suit his own purpose"?
Obama may not be the devil, but he's sure taking this country to hell in a hurry.
"Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves." ~~D.H. Lawrence, Classical American Literature, 1922
Who was it said, words to the effect, "Even the Devil can quote scripture to suit his own purpose"?
Obama may not be the devil, but he's sure taking this country to hell in a hurry.
"Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves." ~~D.H. Lawrence, Classical American Literature, 1922
I thought this was one of O's more outrageous moves. Watching his presidency is like watching Peter Sellers in the Pink Panther. It is so corny that it is entertaining. Oh, wait, we are not talking about an "actor" disguising himself as different characters for the comic entertainment of the masses. We are talking about the POTUS changing into different "characters" to sell a nation on one of the most personal and costly issues of our time. No one knows who this man really is. More and more of the countries audience are "waking up" to a frightening reality. If only they wouldn't have eaten all that popcorn and kool-aid before the show.
Doug correctly identified the main danger the left poses to Americans; any means justifies their ends. Every statesmen and politician admits the necessity of on occasion bowing to realpolitik in order to accomplish certain goals; however, core values and rule of law most alway guide principled leaders. The left has only one goal and that is to bring about whatever utopia is currently in vogue and they will do whatever is necessary in order to achieve that goal.
"there’s been a lot of misinformation in this debate. And there are some folks out here who are, frankly, bearing false witness.”
and the main liar has been ,
Obama.
but hey… why not tell folks that when the opposition uses words of faith, they're tyranical taliban,.. but when lefties use it in a cynical ploy,.. why,.
you're immoral even to question them.
This WH and it's sycophants are sickening in their open hypocrisy. Something folks are starting to see,.. minus the 35% or so that wear red as a Soviet colored glasses. Obama could execute children on the capital steps, and they'd praise him for it.
"We are God's partners in matters of life and death," which Obama said in a conference call with rabbis, is based on a Jewish prayer, according to something I read on the Weekly Standard blog (I think).
We are Gods Partners in Matters of Life and Death? I know that's this Arrogant Marxist Demigods A$$ talking because his head would have better sense.
I have become less and less convinced that the ultimate goal of those that would change the current political and economic dynamic of our country, is in fact a utopian existence where we all grow our own food. Yes that is what they tell their useful idiots and that is why they follow through with their marching orders. However, the ones that truly have something to gain know for a fact that they are re-shaping the infrastructure in a way that will push resources into their back pockets by laundering it through the bureaucratic mess that they are creating.
"that we should pass the President’s health care plan"
What plan is that? Every time he is asked a question he defers to a Higher Being than himself, Congress! This POTUS needs to lead. Has he ever heard of Power Point, no not Power Blame? Stand for something Mr. President. You had a Vision now stand for details you believe in.
He was a christian president talking to a christian audience. Of course he was going to rationalise an otherwise secular plan on a Christian basis. If he was talking to atheists, or buddhists, or muslims, he would have tried to find common ground there. He'd be a shit president if he didn't do at least that.
Also, there's a huge difference from what Obama is doing and Bush's "God speaks to me at night" act. There's also a difference between legislating something with secular appeal that one could find religious justification for(and let's face it, your right wing views make you pretty fucking un-Christ like, can you imagine Jesus calling protestors he didn't agree with "freaks" like you did?) and legislating discriminative policies that do not gel with other faiths(or lack thereof) at all.
Socialised healthcare isn't going to conflict with anyone's "spiritual beliefs". People aren't going to feel like religion is being opposed on them on this manner, and even if it is, at least it's something positive – there's a reason why people bitch about religion being used as a justification for war, but not charity work. It's true some people should be a little more clear on seperation of religion and state, but hell, I've been following your media circus lately and you do nothing but lie, obfuscate, exagerrate and muddy the waters so everything is anything but clear.
It's basically Obama gets elected -> "OH NO SOCIALIST PRESIDENT THE WORLD IS GOING TO END" -> Obama tries to pass stuff -> "HURF DURF WE'LL MAKE A FUSS SO STUFF DOESN'T WORK OUT" -> Stuff doesn't get passed -> "SEE I TOLD YOU OBAMA WAS USELESS!".
The inconsistancy on the right on things like protesting is crazy. There are plenty of videos showing how the right does basically everything they accused the left of once doing.
This is my problem. You could at least TRY a health care reform before denouncing it. It's not as if you can't have another reform if it doesn't work. Socialised healthcare has worked reasonably well so far, and a mix of public and private would be healthy. You already have medicare, it just doesn't extend to everyone.
Anyway, maybe you should think for a second why "Christians" like Obama are tolerated by the horrible Left, but "Christians" such as yourself or Bush are not? I don't have a problem with "Christians". I have a problem with really bad ones, just like I have a problem with crappy atheists, buddhist, muslims.
I take it, they assume God is good with them taking on an active role in his job?
"partners"?
That goes way past arrogance, and doesn't God say in the Bible, "Whorship no other God before me."?
I think a reckoning is coming when you presume to take what is God's and use it as your own. To do this, either Obama doesn't really believe, or his hubris is so great, he really does see himself as God's partner.
I wouldn't want the fate that will earn him.
So what's the Republican health care plan then?
"you're immoral even to question them. "
The problem isn't this. It's that even posts like this you're making have this malicious undertone and it's obvious you're not interested in actually presenting a viable alternative, just acting like a child because someone you disagree with is trying to get you to try something different.
We all love dicussion, but again, the right has this blindly stupid "Me too!!!" attitude as evident with the "Intellgient Design" nonsense. When people are talking about something, you want in on it, you want your opinion heard no matter how little time or thought you'd put into it, and then it evolves from that into your opinion MUST be the only one, as it's pretty evident you're no more interested in hearing pro-healthcare reform advocates speak than you percieve them being in hearing you.
Opposing opinions are fine. It's just that some opinions and some people are intellectually dishonest. If we include every opinion then we have people trying to improve healthcare by rubbing unicorns on people. It doesn't matter we haven't found unicorns to exist, it's MY OPINION. If you put some actual effort into offering a real alternative to Obama's plan, then people would sit in listen. In fact, there was a Republican that did that recently, it was posted on a forum I frequent and guess what, the Lefties actually listened and didn't lambaste him.
If socialised healthcare is so doomed to fail I don't see what your worry is. Just have another heatlhcare reform. If you don't at least try a public system, you can't say for sure it doesn't work(on a law of averages, it's worked for most western countries that have).
So you admit the "Dear Leader" has no plan. Who cares what the Republican plan is, they are not in power.
"What bothered me about Obama's comments to the ministers was the blatant hypocrisy."
Yet it's okay for your guys to call Protestors LOONS and then say it's terrible to call protestors LOONS when his side is protesting?
Hypocrisy over Hypocrisy…
"People who put on and take off their religious values like an old coat offend those of us who struggle to follow our beliefs every hour of every day."
No offense, but people who don't struggle to follow their religious beliefs every hour of every day tend to got on better with the world and other cultures. After all, if your religion turns out to have some harmful aspects, then that's going to be a bad thing – a more casual approach to religion helps you see things in a less biased manner.
This isn't an issue so much of hypocrisy so much as you being intolerant of Christians less crazy than you.
Just once I'd like an anchor to be honest and just say,..
Mr. President, the American public thinks that you are lying to them. They do not believe you, not because they don't "understand", or are misinformed, but because the CBO says your numbers are false, you can't pay for it without a massive tax hike, or by radical cuts in care,.. rationing,, ala "death panels"… which they DO find you quite capable of enacting if you thought it in your interest.
They DO NOT believe you for valid reasons, so just wee wee up your own self and get it.
ABC, CBS, MSNBC,……. a greater chance of an igloo in Hell than an honest report on this.
"Barry would embrace the devil himself, if it increased his power."
See this is the kind of shit that makes nobody want to listen to you. That's an astonishing statement you'd be hard pushed to back up.
And you're going to say WELL THE LEFT DID IT TO BUSH. Just because they did it to one president, doesn't mean it's acceptable for you to do it to ANY president. That only happened after 2 wars and a myriad of other bullshit. It's far too early on in Obama's presidency to even make this kind of judgement, especially when you're trying very hard to make sure he can't pass anything.
If you refrain from such accusations then people are more likely to get into proper worldview discussions with you. I'm not particularly into talking with the Green Day "Impeach Bush" crowd most of the time either. It's not just your opinion, it's that you come off as a blithering idiot.
More loonie comments. Again maybe if you'd stick to criticising and pointing out flaws with what you know is happening, "The Left" would take you more seriously.
It is Mr. Obama and his minions in Congress who have stiffled debate by calling citizens who oppose their plan Nazis. We do have an alternative, let the free market rule. Stop the government regulations that add cost to the process. Tort reform would be nice as well. How is that for an alternative?
[...] socilistic BS… Selling ObamaCare: The True Religion of the Left is Pragmatismby Doug TenNapel Big Hollywood Blog Archive Selling ObamaCare: The True Religion of the Left is Pragmatism [...]
Here's a related parody: "Religious Leaders Convene Emergency Gathering to Reconcile Contradictory Passages in Obama’s Sermons" http://optoons.blogspot.com/2009/08/religious-lea...
There's one commandment Obama and the left seem to have missed. It's one of my favorites:
You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
From my perspective reading down these comments you are the only loony commenting here. There have been many alternatives discussed with regard to healthcare, one of which is leaving it alone. I am perfectly happy with what I have now and I know of many people it is working for. If you want some very well reasoned arguments from the right, try reading Thomas Sowell. He has provided some excellent arguments that are very precise and better written than I can do myself. Look him up and cease with the name calling. Calling someone names is not an argument.
shane, That was just a paid for Troll brought to you by the One who has no plan just poor Vision.
We are God's partners, etc. …… oh, woops, except when we have Christian symbols covered in our presence.
…and all I can hear from the ACLU are crickets chirping. NAMBLA-defending crickets.
You left out defenders ofdrug-addled pederasts.
…and all I can hear from the ACLU are crickets chirping. NAMBLA-defending crickets.
You left out defenders ofdrug-addled pederasts.
If you don't at least try a public system, you can't say for sure it doesn't work(on a law of averages, it's worked for most western countries that have).
————————–
Apparently you haven't been keeping up on the reality of healthcare in Canada, Great Britain, and other countries that have embraced Government-sponsored medicine. These systems are a dismal failure and the citizens of those countries are starting to sit up and make noise. Why is it when wealthy foreigners need an operation they come to the United States? Could it be that our free-market system is lightyears better than anything socialized medicine can gin up? You don't even have to go overseas–look at Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA system–bankrupt and broken.
If that's the kind of healthcare you want, you're welcome to move somewhere that offers it. As for the 80+% that are happy with their current healthcare, they're happy to stay right here.
Obama and the democrats goal is not to provide a free 3rd rate healthcare system to the rubes, it’s about backdoor reparations. The democrats and Obama feel that middle class Americans and the wealthy have stolen their wealth and the democrats will by whatever means necessary return the wealth to its “rightful owners’ aka minorities/poor/non-whites.
The democrats don’t plan on raising the uninsured to the level of the insured but rather they plan on bringing down the quality of healthcare for the insured to that of the uninsured. The goal is to limit healthcare and ration medication/treatments; otherwise there will be no way to control unavoidable spiraling costs. This may be the single most dangerous legislation to ever be proposed in American history. The damage will be severe and widespread. It must be stopped.
Spot on Douglas!
"No offense, but people who don't struggle to follow their religious beliefs every hour of every day tend to got on better with the world and other cultures."
And I have to disagree wholeheartedly with this statement… I know many devout religious people that live, breathe and sleep their faith… whether it's Christian, Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist (yes, I do know people of all these faiths) and they are more tolerant of other people and other faiths than those that are only fair weathered and lukewarm in their faiths… it has nothing to do with their faith or the living with their faith but of ignorance and the refusal to "love your neighbor as yourself", which all faiths I know of have some similar tenent.
Or, how about when Obama has an ABC infomercial on 'his' health plan, dissenting opinions are allowed and considered if the Left is so interested in taking other ideas seriously?
The Left that is that being opposed is the administration – Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Durbin, et al, – and their steadfast refusal to even listen to alternative ideas because they will see their power diluted.
Your claims, Mr. Weizel, about the Left wanting to listen do not stand up to what is actually being practiced by the Left, to wit: the 'stacked' town hall meetings.
Yes, we can see who the "blithering idiot" is.
The last line of this column (Religious politicians acting on their faith is not an establishment of a government church, nor was it when Bush did it) basically sums up my understanding of the relationship of church and state.
The idea of the separation of church and state was that neither could encroach upon the actions of the other. The state could not command its people to believe a certain way as radical Islam would do (Iran, the Taliban), nor could the church command country leaders to rule a certain way as many medieval popes tried to do with kings (Henry VIII).
That said, I don't believe a manger scene on the lawn of the town hall during the Christmas season or the Ten Commandments being displayed in a federal building is establishing a state religion. Those displays force no one to embrace Christianity. The motto "In God We Trust" forces no one to believe. If you do, you do, if you don't, that's okay too.
The ACLU, and Prop. 8 opponents, take this "separation of church and state" too far because they are forcing those who believe to either disbelieve or remove themselves from the public eye, thus violating the separation of church and state because the state is encroaching on the church.
What I found interesting about the ObamaCare debate was what Chuck Schumer said on Meet the Press sunday. He talked about the need for competition in healthcare insurance and that in many places there is only 1 or 2 private options, so costs are high! We need government options so there can be more competition, says Schumer. The irony of the whole matter is that it is government that has effectively thwarted competition through restrictions, policies, and red tape. Instead of correcting that problem in the spirit of "competition," they want us to believe that more government control would make everything cheaper. No question that they can make an individual's premium cheaper than the private sector, but they will have to hide the additional bill that taxpayers will be stuck with to make it seem like a great idea. This is a sham beyond even the most die-hard liberal theology….to paraphase the sappy, overly sensitive, sophisticated John Mayer….someone get me off this train!
The religion of the left is liberalism.
They have their own pope – the defacto party leader, currently Obama.
They have their own saints, Martin Luther King Jr., The Kennedys, FDR. (With feast days when appropriate.)
They have their own cathedrals, Kennedy Center for performing arts, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Berkley.
They have their own Spanish Inquisition, the MSM.
And they have absolutely no problem excommunicating heretics. Alan Deshowitz, Zel Miller, Joe Liberman.
And if you mess with their dogma, they come at you with more passion than the Crusaders or any witch hunters.
The religion of the left is liberalism.
They have their own pope – the defacto party leader, currently Obama.
They have their own saints, Martin Luther King Jr., The Kennedys, FDR. (With feast days when appropriate.)
They have their own cathedrals, Kennedy Center for performing arts, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Berkley.
They have their own Spanish Inquisition, the MSM.
And they have absolutely no problem excommunicating heretics. Alan Dershowitz, Zel Miller, Joe Liberman.
And if you mess with their dogma, they come at you with more passion than the Crusaders or any witch hunters.
I don't know how Mr. Obama's more intelligent followers can keep a straight face. I mean really?
Few weeks ago, this president stated that America was not a Christian nation. Today he goes before a liberal Christian group to ask for help. and you say, no hypocrisy here?? He stayed with a racist church for twenty years, but comes to Washington and can't find a church to his liking all summer long? For those cafeteria choosing Christians….it's our belief in Jesus, the Way, the Truth, the Light, that allows us to carry the name Christian…not whether we follow the left or the right…if there are "bad" Christians, it means they were not Christians to begin with…but it is not up to us to do the judging…time to learn the difference between discernment and judgement…
"Also, there's a huge difference from what Obama is doing and Bush's "God speaks to me at night" act." Okay, skippy, what's the "huge difference". You made the statement, now defend it.
"There's a reason why people bitch about religion being used as a justification for war, but not charity work." As a matter of fact religion is more often used as a reason for charity work than war. Where do you get your delusions, laser brains? Where is your evidence? Conservative Christians give more to charity than Liberal Secularists do. That's a fact, skippy.
"You could at least TRY a health care reform before denouncing it. It's not as if you can't have another reform if it doesn't work." There have been calls to reform Social Security for decades. It's bankrupt and has been bankrupt for years. It's a Ponzi scheme. Has it been reformed yet? Yeah, didn't think so. Once you get a bureaucracy going, you can't get rid of it that easily.
Epic Fail, skippy. Epic fail.
"'Christians' Like Obama", indeed
when did Bush ever say God talks to him? apart from the fact that that is what leftists want us to think, you won't be able to back it up. And by the way Obama has made more church appearances and used more imagery of religion in the past 8 months than Bush did in his first 8.
Isn't it funny how the non or lax believers like to envoke Christ-like behavior to justify their judgemental stances? "How dare you pass judgement on me, you are an un-christian hypocrite." ironic much?
Ha ha, I've been trolled.
As if you were listening to begin with. You came here trying to find that one sentence that could convince you that all people opposed to Obama's plan are "blithering idiots." You feel you have found it and now you are happy.
Now run along..you got the bit of information that will help you happily close your mind to anything else said in here…
Ha ha, I've been trolled. If you would like a particular genre for which I have based my opinions, I would suggest Russia starting in the 17th century and work your way to the present to see what we may in fact be pushing ourselves towards in a socio-cultural context that is.
Ha ha, I've been trolled. If you would like a particular genre for which I have based my opinions, I would suggest Russia starting in the 17th century and work your way to the present to see what we may in fact be pushing ourselves towards, in a socio-cultural context that is.
Ha ha, I've been trolled. If you would like a particular genre for which I have based my opinions, I would suggest Russia starting in the 17th century and work your way to the present to see what we may in fact be pushing ourselves towards, in a socio-political context that is.
"Here’s the President of this pluralist, secular, democracy…"
Actually, we are a republic, not a democracy. Just sayin'.
So nice to see that you got your talking points from Jon Stewart the other day! I guess if you can find one instance of hypocrisy among someone on the right, that cancels out any and all hypocrisy from anyone on the left, up to and including the President?
Barry's real Obamacare slogan is: I am My Brother's keeper only if he voted for me, is under the age of 60, is a democrat, swallowed the socialist koolaid and doesn't disagree with me, ever!
"The Left" would take you more seriously.
Are you an idiot? [rhetorical question]. Yeah, we're really concerned about drug addicted slackjawed cretins that lick door knobs not taking us seriously.
First, you missed the point entirely. Doug is showing the double standards of the left. If a politicain with an 'R' by their name brought up any of these statements, liberal/progressive groups would be screaming their usual misguided concept of "Separation of Church and State". A Pol with a 'D' gets a pass. Second, I can't say if Obama is a Christian or not but Black Liberation Theology is not so i suspect he isn't either. Third, "(and let's face it, your right wing views make you pretty f**king un-Christ like" is patently false. Liberal/Progressivism is not in inline with Christian doctrine.
Conservative values are rooted in scripture. Now, everyone falters. If they didn't, Jesus died on the cross for no reason. The whole purpose was to pay for our sins because we all commit them. The difference is whether or not you humble yourself to repent and ask for forgiveness. You can't earn Grace, it is a gift. But you do have to humble yourself to receive it. Fourth, there are three alternative Health Care reform Bills that are being ignored. Why? Because Obamacare is not about health care. And you can't just 'try' socialized medicine. Once a gov't program is started, they never go away. I wasn't going to respond to this posting because I thought it "pearls before swine" but I decided to cast the seed and see if it takes hold. Praying for you L.R.
Absolutely, there are people on the left who nitpick. It doesn't make it any more right when you do it, or when Doug tries to make out everyone on "The Left" does it and are all huge hypocrites.
Both you and Doug are failing to distinguish between two very different types of Christian. Moderate Christians are obviously going to be more accepted when it comes to matter of "Church and State" because it's a given they'll be less influenced. People are fairly cool with moderate Christians. They know they'll likely have reasons other than THE BIBLE or TRADITION for their ideas – which is what it comes down to.
Yes, there should be a more clear cut definition of exactly how much seperation between Church and State there should be. But it doesn't make it any less stupid that you use all kinds of bullshit ammo against Obama and Lefties and this is no different.
If Obama came out with the equivalent of Bush's "Traditional Marriage" day, then people would bitch because that is just ridiculous. Justifying a secular plan with Christian values to a bunch of Christians is fair enough, whether Dem or Rep does it. And yes, a lot of Dems would nitpick. But the problem is here again neither Doug nor you, like in every other fucking entry, is able to seperate between the few that would do that and the many that are much more reasonable.
I'm perfectly aware for example that you and Doug do not represent Christians as a whole, or even a majority. Hell half my argument relies on that. The fact that you think the notion of "seperation of church and state" is misguided means there's probably no point trying to explain though. What you fail to realise is that while I've said it's "fair enough" this happen on one level, I'm pretty sure many of us would rather that it didn't, it's still uncomfortable. Given idiots like you have made it impossible to not be a "Christian" and be president, this is the kind of nonsense you can get, so I've set my standard rather low.
Again, there's an important difference here – personal belief is always going to influence someone's decisions, that's a given. But second guessing that, and ensuring it's relevant to people of other faiths, is something every president should do, and something Libs/Dems feel Republican presidents don't do. That's why they'd jump on on a Republican president, because they do not trust based on the party's values and likely the individual candidate's values that they will make this distinction. Amazingly, there are reasons for these things. I'm even aware there are often reasons for a lot of the nonsense you spout as well.
This sounds like I'm fobbing you off, but if you think about it, it has to be true. Everyone is going to have personal beliefs, but everyone in a position has to consider other people's too(within reason – again a lot of you CCs are making a stink for the sake of it, that's just trolling), and what would be the best thing to do overall.
That's the issue here. But of course I'm in for another slew of pointless -1s instead of a good discussion.
Christians "like Obama," are tolerated because the left KNOWS that it is a farce, whereas they fear and loath Bush because they know he is genuine in his belief. The fact that the left gives him a pass on these little white lies is what people are beginning to wake up to.
"These systems are a dismal failure and the citizens of those countries are starting to sit up and make noise"
No they fucking haven't. Canada is considering a private option. A PRIVATE OPTION. Nowhere are they considering scrapping the policy altogether. Also, spending is STILL less on Canada's system than it is in the US system. France? Fine. Sweden? Fine. Not only are more people covered, but the quality is BETTER. I live in Ireland – we have a mix of public and private – quite frankly it's shit compared to likes of France due because both our businesses and government is poorly run. But would I trade it for the US System? Heck no.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?stor...
Again, this is the problem. You don't live in the real world, your viewpoints are delusional, so why should anyone bother taking them seriously? If I'm wrong, then in what way are they "failing" exactly?
What bothers me is that I'll get more negative marks when I backed up my point and have only posted the facts.
I accept you're a big fan of your own country, and have ideas about how to do things. But please at least accept that some countries have been able to do at least something better.
"There have been many alternatives discussed with regard to healthcare, one of which is leaving it alone. I am perfectly happy with what I have now and I know of many people it is working for."
Leaving it alone? Your system costs nearly twice as much as the French one and has a huge portion of the population uncovered. Do you really think you can't do better than that?
"Calling someone names is not an argument. "
What you mean like when Doug called all Lefty protestors "freaks", and hurled insults at Pagans?
Honestly, if Doug posted on a moderate, unbiased site, and I posted – who do you think people would be more likely to earmark as the "Loon"? Be honest.
I'm not even american and I don't have any particular attachment to Obama other than he was considerably more preferable than the alternative. Please don't make such assumptions.
I don't have a clue of the specifics of Obama's plan. I'm pretty sure the idea of Health Care Reform is to actually look at what needs to be done first. Obama in particular is trying to offer Universal Health Care, like they have in Canada, France, Scandanavia, the UK, you know most civilised countries. But you guys are opposed to even that…
The act is a farce? As opposed to the Right's HURR WE'RE THE REAL PROTESTORS NOW?
This whole outrage is a farce. You haven't even given Obama a chance to make any changes.
I'm pretty sure that was intended to stop people being jealous, greedy bastards, not want a decent standard of health care. You know like a lot of Republicans.
Jesus christ would any of you back these conspriacy theories up for once
That was well considered LR you take your dribble seriously, your Barry is very proud of you.
"Ha ha, I've been trolled."
Indeed, that means you are now a success in posting an informed opinion. trolls hate those.
I wonder if the job "Troll" pays well these days? I doubt it comes with benefits though.
Hm… so I guess demonizing the "rich" and allowing people to protest "rich" peoples houses doesn't fall under coveting though…. right?
Hm… so I guess demonizing the "rich" and allowing people to protest in front of "rich" peoples homes doesn't fall under coveting though…. right?
That's right, doofus. Because the changes Obama wants to make are all bad. Can you get this through your head? If your kids' principal announced that henceforth school lunches would include arsenic and ground glass, I expect that's a "change" you would oppose.
Personally I resent your calling one of Jeremiah Wright's cultists a "Christian." Almost as much as I resent the twisting of Christian doctrine into Marxism-with-hymns.
Dang! figures.. my neighbor has this pretty awesome donkey, but it got taxed away.
What I don't understand is why he doesn't stand up for the national day of prayer in our country, but puts out televised greetings in the Middle East for there Holy month?
"…it's that you come off as a blithering idiot."
No, friend, there's only 1 person coming off this thread like that, and I'll give you 3 guesses as to who that is. (Actually I'll give you 4, since that's a hint at the answer!)
http://www.nationalcenter.org/ShatteredLives.html
Go download that for free and just endure the first 20 pages or so where it lists statistics on things like cancer treatment. If you get into the section on Great Britain, you'll start seeing reference after reference to the "postcode lottery" which is how the subdivisions of the NHS apportion out treatment management by living area, kind of like school districts. Notice how over and over, in the interests of "fairness" in treatment, someone could be denied a live- or vision-saving drug when a person with the same treatment just a few miles away could receive it. Notice also the similarities in the mistreatment and mismanagement of labor and delivery, cancer treatment, wet macular degeneration, basic dental care, and hospital neglect.
http://www.nationalcenter.org/ShatteredLives.html
Go download that for free and just endure the first 20 pages or so where it lists statistics on things like cancer treatment. If you get into the section on Great Britain, you'll start seeing reference after reference to the "postcode lottery" which is how the subdivisions of the NHS apportion out treatment management by living area, kind of like school districts. Notice how over and over, in the interests of "fairness" in treatment, someone could be denied a live- or vision-saving drug when a person with the same condition just a few miles away could receive it. Notice also the similarities in the mistreatment and mismanagement of labor and delivery, cancer treatment, wet macular degeneration, basic dental care, and hospital neglect.
It's true. I don't know how many people have either taken quotes by Jesus and his Apostles completely out of context to suit their own ends, or just lied about things He said completely. My personal favorite is when they use the old "Well, in The Old Testament they talk about not eating shellfish" argument against why they won't follow or believe in the Bible at all.
This would be the same French system that allowed hundreds to die in the major heatwave that struck Europe? Yeah, it seems no one could bother to pick up patients and take them to the hospitals because all the health care and ambulance workers took their state mandated vacations to go to the beach and keep cool.
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=Coburn&page=1&qs...
You mean this one?
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.1099...
You mean this one?
http://www.nationalcenter.org/ShatteredLives.html
We object to it because of a plethora of failure stories like the ones reported here from government run systems around the world.
to use the phrase 'Bear False Witness' coming out of his piehole is too much…
This man is a serial dissembler. Not always lies, mind you- but spin, obfuscation, and other olfactory trickery with oratorical relish. Nothing he says is to be believed on face value. Research, investigate, and make your own judgements.
Oh- that's what the town hall protestors did? Never mind…
But we're not a Christian nation. We are one of the largest Muslim nations. So why isn't he appealing to Allah in order to attempt to remain consistent?
But we're not a Christian nation. We are one of the largest Muslim nations. So why isn't he appealing to Allah in order to attempt to remain consistent? I'm just trying to follow Obama's own views of America.
What you mean like a young 20-something who could pay for his or her own health care deciding that they'd rather the government come steal stuff the rest of us have worked hard to pay for the health care they's rather not pay for themselves?
I think that's pretty greedy myself.
What you mean like a young 20-something who could pay for his or her own health care deciding that they'd rather the government come steal stuff the rest of us have worked hard to pay for for the health care they'd rather not pay for themselves?
I think that's pretty greedy myself.
http://atheism.about.com/od/theology/a/liberation...
Black Liberation Theology is the brand practiced and preached by those in Rev. Wright's Church. The link lists the tenants of liberation theology. Notice the socialism inherent in them; one even references the teachings of Marx. Obama only spent 20 years listening to this style of theology, allowed the pastor to baptize his children and was married by the Rev. Wright himself.
I'm sure you're correct that though that his agenda has nothing to do with leveling the playing field for the poor and oppressed as he defines them. And everything we know about Government health care teaches us that any leveling that is done will adjust quality and availability down.
Backed up your point and posted facts, how so? Oh and what's with the swearing, does that make your pathetic attempt at proving your opinion correct?
No offense, but for someone who advocates a casual approach to religion, you sure testify about yours vociferously each time you post. Thanks for clearing up the fact that "Intellgient Design" is nonsense. Once the Low Rent Weasel speaks, discussion is obviously over.
Don't forget the great Prophet Al Gore.
Why is Barry's false witness naked?
I said from the beginning that a man who thinks that the moral of that story is "I am my brother's keeper" can't be trusted to talk about religion. cf. http://tinyurl.com/lq6xbb
You missed Whole Foods in their Inquisition.
You're not only ignorant and rude, but you're tiresome. Grow up and start using your head.
Yeah because all of us only embrace the protesting when it's convient for us… :/ How about you? Or are you only pointing out the hypocrisy of others instead of yourself… where you right there saying "right on" to the Cindy Sheehans of a couple of years ago and are now calling the protestors of the last few months loons?
Personally, I could care less about people who protest on either side… because they obviously have some validity… I may not agree with Cindy Sheehan but she has every right to protest as the people booing at our willfully illiterate congressmen that refuse to read important bills that will impact all 300+ million of us because it's too much work.
While I agree with the column, I think you need to take another look at the word, "Pragmatism" in the dictionary There is nothing pragmatic about the Left (other than their love of using words like that to show everyone how thoughtful they think they are). They are emotional, temperamental, and completely ideological. They have less in common with the word than they do with the spirit of Christianity.
Hey LR! What was it you said StlDan, “you know you’re over the target when you start receiving flack.” Goody! I could care less what you think LR. I’m glad I could astonish you, and I hope it pisses you off! No need to back up what is self evident, I’ll leave you to wonder. ____So I take it you’re a worthless parasite coming to his masters call for help? Help us here LR, obviously you hail from the 57th state, is “jobs” still a three letter word? Shhhh… the wars are still going on, and Gitmo is still open, but alas your master is fulfilling one promise he’s has the AG Eric Holder setting up a special prosecutor to attack the hero’s that kept us safe after 9-11. But, like all witless leftist they’ll open the doors into their nose on that one as well. So what’s in it for you LR what do you get as a slave to the state?____No LR I don’t think I will, and I’ve heard your moral relativism spewed for forty plus years no interest in learning your point of view, I already know it. You hurt me with the “blithering idiot” comment: ( ____So LR, what’s in it for you? __
Christians "like Obama," are tolerated because the left KNOWS that it his act is a farce. Whereas they fear and loathe Bush because they know he is genuine in his belief. The fact that the left gives him a pass on these little white lies is what people are beginning to wake up to.
I think a 7.1 trillion dollar deficit in the next decade as estimated by the CBO for projects already passed into law, not taking into account legislation in congress, is more than enough chance at change. What you fail to consider is that we are printing money, with China backing up bonds to secure that the money has any value whatsoever when printed and dumping that printed money into projects that serve to bolster infrastructure that would serve as the power base for generations of liberals to come. What you don't realize is that you are applauding their efforts to design a system that would give them unprecidented control over our everyday lives thus controlling our consumer habits in a way that allows the quasi-governmental triumvarate of green energy, community organization and labor unions to profit tremendously. Perhaps you are perfectly aware as to what is happening and you have sold your soul in an attempt to claim your rightful position perched by your masters side.
Got anything to say to the hypocrisy of someone who derided "bitter Bible and gun clingers" and very publically said that determinging where life began is "above his pay grade" now talking about "bearing false witness" to leaders of the same group telling us that "we're in a life and death partnership with God"? How about how he swore that we aren't a Christian nation but he now feels that he needs to appeal to the moral side of the religious in order to win his health care debate? How about the hypocrisy of someone who lectures the nation about "being our brother's keeper" when his own lived in a hut in Africa on $12/year and his aunt lives illegally in this country on the public housing dole?
We called leftists for many other reasons than their propensity to protest. Protests are Constitutionally protected form of speech in Amendment 1. However, you can protest for a lot of things. My husband works for a company that makes pet medications, and they get protested for doing animal tests. We call them loony because we have yet to figure out how anyone can determine the safety of an animal medication without testing it on animals, but they have every right to protest and have their beliefs heard.
<a href=”http://www.nationalcenter.org/ShatteredLives.html” target=”_blank”>http://www.nationalcenter.org/ShatteredLives.html
Go download that for free and just endure the first 20 pages or so where it lists statistics on things like cancer treatment. If you get into the section on Great Britain, you'll start seeing reference after reference to the "postcode lottery" which is how the subdivisions of the NHS apportion out treatment management by living area, kind of like school districts. Notice how over and over, in the interests of "fairness" in treatment, someone could be denied a live- or vision-saving drug when a person with the same condition just a few miles away could receive it. Notice also the similarities in the mistreatment and mismanagement of labor and delivery, cancer treatment, wet macular degeneration, basic dental care, and hospital and ambulance transportation neglect.
Weizel,
Do you even read what you post or reply to? Or is this some cut and paste job you do at many sites?
[...] Big Hollywood » Blog Archive » Selling ObamaCare: The True Religion of the Left is Pragmatism bighollywood.breitbart.com/dtennapel/2009/08/25/religion-for-me-but-not-for-thee/ – view page – cached On August 19th, President Obama conducted an Internet conference to draw support from faith leaders for his health care package. He used explicit, religious language to engage the audience, ”I know there’s been a lot of misinformation in this debate. And there are some folks out here who are, frankly, bearing false witness.” — From the page [...]
We called leftists for many other reasons than their propensity to protest.
Like their tendency to project.
Obama refuses to be his own biological Brother's keeper! BO's brother still lives in a hut in Africa with a dirt floor living on less than a dollar a day.
He has to be these "characters" for if anyone sees the 'true' Obama, the one who was the senator with the most liberal voting record, wouldn't vote for the born alive act, who sat in Rev. Wright's church, they still won't realize the danger they put this country in.
He is about as christian as a rabbi.
Same as it is now…nothing to see here folks move along. Status Quo isn't working so lets change it,but seems the Insurance lobbyist and some Republicans are trying to derail yet again a change.
least ur taxes would go to helping ur fellow americans out. But I guess that is not the American way to help thy brothers in need or the less fortunate. Republicans are all for invading countries,but yet they lack the will power to help our own. sad sad sad. I don't care what religiona president is or isn't, I'd prefer none just to avoid all this hate and need for it. You can get off the train anytime u want; just buy ur plane tickets and go.
I guess everyone here thinks Bush was a Saint and did no wrong while in office? Im all for a gov't or public option as the status quo isn't working,and I forsure don't see the private sector righting its wrongs. I'd rather my tax dollars goto helping my fellow Americans that going overseas killing or bribing people.
Pathetic attempt? I'm the only person who's posted anything resembling a proper study in this thread.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?stor...
How come you conveniently ignored this?
If you start acting like respectable adults, I'll treat you like one.
I did use my head by posting a study to back up my assertions, as opposed to immature conspiracy theories like you and the rest of the far right loonies on this page seem to subscribe to.
I'm sorry "Using your head" means "Think like me".
There is a nice little thing called The Style Over Substance fallacy. Because I was (deservedly) harsh on you does not negate the fact that I posted evidence. Now, this is about as far from an "Opinion" as you can get, as it is part of logic. Not only do you ignore evidence, you ignore logic too. What part of this is using your head?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?stor...
The French healthcare system is better than the US system. This is a fact. It covers more people, and it has a better standard. Even if you can pick at individual failings of the French system(how could it possibly be perfect?) the fact is that studies done into the overall quality of healthcare have turned back that the French system covers more people, is cheaper, and offers a greater standard of healthcare.
What about the millions in the US who face bankruptcy or serious illness because they can't afford health insurance?
Please post some facts to back up your assertions. This is my problem – you really don't care about the issue of healthcare. You care about STICKING IT TO THE LEFT. You're working backwards from the position that universal health care CAN'T work and refuse to listen to any evidence to the contrary. I have every right to be disgusted at you and everyone else here.
What part of "informed opinion" involves posting no evidence to back your opinion, while shittalking someone that does?
Oh, just wow. What an amazing generalisation.
You really are a bunch of vicious, sociopathic little shits. Very few people on the "Left" would make that level of generalisation against EVERYONE on the right. Yet it's okay for you to do it, and then moan when anyone criticises you?
It's not just "The Left", it's THE REST OF THE WORLD. But conveniently, according to Doug, America is the only place worth living and everywhere else is a shithole. In other words there's no way to disprove your opinion anyway since it's not founded in relaity.
Do you realise what a delusional castle of bullshit you've built for yourself?
No, you don't. And that's what bothers me. You don't care about health care, or people, only your opinion.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?stor...
The French system is better than the US one. I'm sick of posting this link. If you have an actual proper study to show me that indicates otherwise, not just that there are shortfallings but that it's notably inferior in delivering care to people than the US one, then please post it. I'll actually listen.
"Liberty and Tryanny: A Conservative Manifesto"
This is about as far from an unbiased source as you can get.
You do not oppose the "Obama Plan" because of the failures of socialised medicine. You purposely seek out anything that agrees with you instead of looking to study.
You formulated your opinion from "Well I'm right wing, what is the right wing opinion of healthcare?" You'll deny it to the ends of the earth, and I'm sure that a lot of lefties supporting their system are just the same, but it's still fucking true, if you'd reasoned your opinion for yourself you'd actually care when I post links like that and take them to heart, but you don't. You don't care for science or research, only your opinion. And this is why much of the rest of the world has such a negative view of americans.
I have no such loyalties to a particular ideology. Almost any UNBIASED studies certainly indicate socialised healthcare is superior on average. You're blind to the horrors of your own system. People in countries with socialised healthcare live longer on average than in the US. Do you think this is a coincidence? Maybe it is, but the vast majority of studies seem to indicate it's unlikely.
Also as a quick note, the French healthcare system is actually a mixture of public and private, they don't consider it "Socialised", but it's certainly more so than the US one which is why I refer to it as so. Nonetheless, they have universal healthcare, and it still costs half as much as in the US. It's just that right wingers seem to pay more money to private healthcare than less through taxes. This to me proves that they're being reactionary instead of actually sitting down and thinking about it.
Given most right wingers here don't want ANY healthcare reform, it's not even an issue of public vs. private if you can't look at what works best.
When 'The One' is bringing his A game, he could give lessons to Bill Clinton. We're lucky he's not worth a damn without a prepared script on a teleprompter. If he had BC's ability to ad lib, we'd really be screwed…
Russ, when did I sign the social contract that FORCES me to spend my money on your healthcare? I am a big fan of charitable causes, and when I see someone suffering, I am there to help, but of my own free will. I do not appreciate a bureaucrat spending my tax dollars or your child's tax dollars on social programs.
Concerning the plane tickets, I'd be happy to go. The only problem is that everywhere else is worse in this regard than the US. Perhaps Obama could give me and others who love financial freedom a sovereign stretch of property within the US to live truly free. That I would vote for.
awww aren't you cute.
Janeane Garofalo ring a bell? How about Bill Maher or Keith Olbermann? Maybe Ward Churchill also rings a bell. If their opinions were that isolated for those of you on the left, they wouldn;t have national stages or positions of authority where they can preach and teach this same view of the right that you claim is so isolated.
Oh, we want true health care reform, but we're smart enough to look at the public education system, the IRS and the tax code, Social Security and Medicaid and Medicare, cash for clunkers, and even the senate cafeteria and realize that letting the government control more of it isn't the proper answer. "If you put the government in charge of the desert, there would soon be a shortage of sand" – Milton Friedman. If you put the government in control of health care, there will soon be a shortage of treatment.
Btw, if the French system is so good, no one here is stopping you from moving there.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/la...
This French system? The one where your taxes are 40% or higher once you count in the surcharge tax, the one where the French government is steadily going broke and looking to possibly revoke coverage for all but the chronically ill, the one where you can get better care if you're rich and better care if you're poor but if you're in the middle, you fall through the cracks, the one where you can still usually get faster access to care if you pay out of pocket entirely still leading to a two-tier system?
It sounds like this one isn't much more workable than the one we have. You just like it because you don't have to pay as much, nevermind that your nation is slowly going broke. Given that this country is rapidly going broke, I don't see how we're supposed to sustain this kind of thing.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/la...
This French system? The one where your taxes are 40% or higher once you count in the surcharge tax, the one where the French government is steadily going broke and looking to possibly revoke coverage for all but the chronically ill, the one where you can get better care if you're rich and better care if you're poor but if you're in the middle, you fall through the cracks, the one where you can still usually get faster access to care if you pay out of pocket entirely still leading to a two-tier system?
It sounds like this one isn't much more workable than the one we have. You just like it because you don't have to pay as much, nevermind that your nation is slowly going broke. Given that this country is rapidly going broke, I don't see how we're supposed to sustain this kind of thing.
Please do not claim this man is a Christian. Please.
As to the rest of your post, it's too ridiculous to even respond to.
I don't a give flying rat's ass when it comes to the left on this one. I've been studying socialized health care for a while (years) now. I know what happens to people who have my particular condition in countries – all of them – that have this kind of system. We get patted on the head and sent home with a bottle of narcotics. I know of people who have been misdiagnosed and mistreated by their system and have had strokes as a result, one of them died, and she was in Sweden. All anecdotal, but I've seen enough of these anecdotes about mistreatement and wrestling with a system that controls everything and cares more about cost than about you to know that I sure as hell don't want this system for myself even IF the alternative is bankruptcy.
Wow, I didn't post a link to "Liberty and Tyranny." I posted a link to a PDF in which were compiled plenty of incidents from various government run systems from around the world in which those systems fail to deliver anything approaching the quality of care that we receive in the US. It also has a ton of statistics comparing the cancer survival rates with the US system versus about four or five other systems. The words "Mark Levin" must have scared you away. He simply wrote the forward.
Oh, and NPR is your source, and you lecture me about bias …
My life has felt 10% worse since reading this. Because it's true.
Truth sucks. If you live with it, the knowledge tears you apart with rage and makes you feel sick at not being able to do anything to stop it. Ignorance of truth will either kill you or turn you into a tool.
I need a drink… and I'm considering chain smoking as a hobby.
"You haven't even given Obama a chance to make any changes."
Seriously? Can you not think 5 minutes in front of your face? Do the math (And do the math right) and you'll see we lose more than we can gain should he enact anything he's calling to change.
Yeah, who the fuck want socialised healthcare? It's not like the three of the countries with the longest lifespans are Canada, France and Sweden.
The only "math" to do is with the stats that show these systems are better. When I posted studies showing this and asked you lot to back up your assertions, everyone went sort of quiet. This leads me to believe you're not doing this because of any "facts".
You're ignorant hicks proclaiming to know anything at all about something you plainly do not. Your position is entirely reactionary. Please stop acting like there's some kind of intellectual basis for it.
I'm not a "Barry" fan and I'm not even American. There's a difference between being a "fan" and taking a stance against the reactionary right.
This is what drives me nuts. You'll get positive comments for something that plainly isn't true, and I'll get negative for correcting you.
"Epic Fail"?
Yeah, go pull your conservative christian bullshit over at 4chan and see how far you get with it.
I don't live in the US or France.
Also, I could say the same of you, if you have such a problem with a public option, why don't you take your McCarthyist ass to another country? Or is everyone that supports a public option ANTI-AMERICAN so that doesn't count?
Using an American newspaper from a conservative state for an unbiased view of French healthcare? Are you fucking serious?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12495804924151173...
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/P1-AR008...
See this image? The U.S. spends a whopping 16% of it's GDP on Healthcare, whereas the 11% France spends is causing it to fall apart? France is having difficulty with costs. The U.S. is having a MUCH GREATER PROBLEM with costs which is why the dreaded Muslim Devil you have in office is looking at healthcare reform. Most socialised systems are cheaper because of the overheads involved in seeling insurance, licensing drugs, etc.
And it has near 100% total coverage. Where are you getting this "falling through the cracks" bullshit?
This is what annoys me about so many US Conservatives. You read some shit in a local paper or see it on FOX NEWS and take it to heart. You don't seem to understand what "Unbiased source" means.
Here are the basic facts –
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9117/healthcar...
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1241/healthfra...
These come from the OECD factbook http://stats.oecd.org/oecdfactbook/
The key word being fact, it's not a Liberal or Conservative slanted site. It's the actual statistics.
France has a longer life expectancy than the US, and more important it's overall spending on healthcare is much smaller.
This isn't really something you can argue you with, yet american conservatives and "Libertarians" everywhere are doing this.
If you can find a genuine flaw with the French system, then fine. But it is not more expensive. The costs are rising, but not as fast as those of the US(another thing you can check if you slide the bar on the OECD site from left to right) Now, I've gone to the effort of proving my point, so you can at least appreciate that.
Comments like "because the CBO says your numbers are false, you can't pay for it without a massive tax hike, or by radical cuts in care,.. rationing,, ala "death panels"…" just aren't true. Well, in a sense it is true – it will require more taxes. But this would be money you'd be paying anyway(and if you look at the % of public expenditure – France's is only slightly higher – so "massive tax hike", if they were to copy the French system, maybe get some efficient French or Swedish guys in to help run it, isn't true).
It is possible to offer a higher standard of healthcare and have it cost less. The other countries in that picture that are clumped together are mostly Western europe and Canada.
Yeah, if they're The Top Theocrat!
So sorry, we're against the AMERICAN version of your "civilized" health care. And that means: it will be a HUGE tax — coming at a time of tremendous job loss and pay cuts! — administered by the IRS (Internal Revenue Service — the only arm of the US Federal gov't whereby you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. A VERY expensive and VERY iffy proposition. Americans live in fear of the IRS, and pretty much nothing else! Not being a Yank, you probably have NO idea . . .) "Obamacare" is just an end-run around our dearly paid for (in BLOOD) Constitution. The IRS ROUTINELY confiscates REAL property (houses, cars, bank accounts, businesses, etc.) without ANY due process. Now, we'll have this nightmare attached to our HEALTH CARE!!! So don't judge what you don't understand. You only THINK you understand the U.S. and Americans. But in reality, you people don't have a clue. So, it turns out we Americans aren't the only ones who are ignorant about others' lives and governments. We're told of our ignorance all the time. Now it's YOUR turn.
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