A-holes and Insects – or Mother Nature Doesn’t Care If You’re a Good Liberal
by Charles WinecoffDecades before George Clooney began using “Darfur” to swat away the unfashionable nuisance of “Iraq,” the hollow eyes and distended stomachs of starving Biafran children gave America’s impressionable “me generation” a reality check during commercial breaks. Parents shook their heads and wrote checks. “We have so much,” went the refrain. “The world is so unfair.”
My pretty fourth-grade teacher, who taught us everything from math and history to a dash of entomology (study of insects), didn’t think so. One day, unprompted, she told her class of 10-year-olds that she wasn’t really concerned about the Biafran babies because mass starvation was just nature’s way of controlling overpopulation. (My parents were mortified.)
Hard to fathom how, less than three decades after the Holocaust, any educated person could harbor such cold acceptance of the cruel suffering of fellow human beings - much less voice it (and to children, no less). But whoever said the human race is on a one-way path to progress?
It’s widely assumed that, in every moment we’re alive, we’ve reached a new pinnacle – of modernity, experience, knowledge, enlightenment – that we always move forward, never back. But what if we don’t? What if we’re fated to make the same mistakes (disguised with innocuous new names) over and over again?
Fifty years before my lesson in urban savagery, Margaret Sanger, the Saint of Planned Parenthood, advocated beliefs that were not dissimilar to those of my twisted teach. The fabled women’s rights activist was all about negative eugenics – meaning making sure ”social misfits” and other undesirables never got the chance to repulse the right people, by making sure they never got born.
“Birth control,” she declared in 1923, “is nothing more or less than the facilitation of the process of weeding out the unfit, or preventing the birth of defectives or of those who will become defectives.” Her mission: to stop ”keeping alive thousands who never, in all human compassion, should have been brought into this world.”
Sanger was ambitious. She actively advocated for sterilization of the great unwashed – the “feeble-minded, insane… deaf, deformed and dependent,” including “orphans, ne’er-do-wells, tramps, the homeless and paupers.” Talk about a hard knock life.
Before she came along, President Teddy Roosevelt had responded to a drastic drop in the national birth rate with a more positive (but equally elitist) message. He encouraged turn-of-the-century yuppies to do their primitive best and reproduce – to, in theory, bring more of the “right” kind of people into the world. But the goddess of “choice” found hope only in curtailing options for the disenfranchised.
“I hated the wretchedness and hopelessness of the poor,” Sanger wrote, “and never experienced that satisfaction in working among them that so many noble women have found.” Indeed, her whole life seems to have been spent rebelling against the devout Roman Catholicism of her parents; Sanger’s mother got pregnant a whopping 18 times (which probably explains a lot).
Yes, thanks to Sanger’s one-woman crusade, 8300 people were sterilized in the state of Virginia alone. Her most famous casualty was a young rape victim named Carrie Buck, whose tubes were ultimately cut – against her will – because she was allegedly promiscuous and mentally “challenged” with a rocky family history. “Three generations of imbeciles are enough,” Supreme Court justice Oliver Wendell Holmes famously wrote of the case. Snip snip.
Forty years later, feminist Betty Friedan picked up the Puritanical, less-is-more torch and hailed the American family a “comfortable concentration camp.” Easy to dismiss such a statement as cheeky rhetoric. But even in our seemingly advanced society, fascism still seethes just beneath the surface - behind a smile, an empathetic word, a good intention. People like to control people.
As Paul Johnson points out his absorbing bestseller, Intellectuals, “social engineering has been the salient delusion and the greatest curse of the modern age. In the twentieth century it has killed scores of millions of innocent people, in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, Communist China and elsewhere…. It is the birthright of the totalitarian tradition.”
In the popular countdown, the number one eugenicists were obviously the Nazis, who took social engineering to nightmarish new heights. But after the post-War baby boom of the 1950s, we got soft – resting on our liberators’ laurels and blindly trusting in the assumption that, as a species, we were finally evolving and growing.
In fact, revolving and shrinking is more like it. As a good friend once said, “People don’t live long enough to learn anything.”
Gays and lesbians, for instance, were once an invisible minority in America. In the 1950s, they were labeled mentally ill, often forced to undergo electro-shock therapy or sent off to asylums along with the rest of Sanger’s degenerates. Yet in 2009, out and proud American LGBTs – exalted and protected by the media and endowed with all the legal rights to form civil unions (and, in some states, marriages) – march naively alongside the covert Stalinists of International ANSWER, whining that they “can’t breathe” in the redneck USA.
Never mind that we live in a country where even the former Republican Vice President – the father of an openly gay daughter - has publicly declared that “People ought to be free to enter into any kind of union they wish, any kind of arrangement they wish.” (Which is a more forthright statement than any the Democratic President has said.)
Meanwhile, in the heterosexual paradise known as Iran, gays who dare to exist (or get caught doing so) continue to be executed, to the tune of about 15 deaths per month – with barely a peep of solidarity from the most powerful and affluent gay community in the Western world.
Recently, violence exploded in Tehran over the rigged re-election of murderous homophobe Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Students and others were inspired by the daring and unusual sight of the opposition candidate – gasp! – holding his wife’s hand in public. As protesters were bludgeoned and shot in the streets, what did the gay community here do? They donned green (once upon a time done only on Thursdays), brazenly equated the Iranian riots with their armchair petulance over Obama’s (unsurprising) neglect - and courageously withheld checks from the DNC.
Newsflash: West Hollywood is not Tehran.
And sadly, Mir-Hussein Mousavi ain’t Michael Jackson. The minute the King of Pop stopped breathing, the gays dumped their Iranian brethren to attack Perez Hilton on Twitter. A few days later, President Obama officially killed gay solidarity with Iran: he distracted the griping gays with an overdue bone, hosting a Stonewall anniversary party in the East Room of the White House – and proclaimed “June 2009 as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month.” (What about June 2010?)
The LGBT community proved its collective attention span is no better than the average teenager’s. Riots? What riots? Memories of atrocities perpetrated against mankind no longer get passed down generation from generation; they end up on T-shirts. Not even the gay community can remember its darkest days anymore – though God knows, they still love the drama!
As long as there are celebrity train wrecks, oppressed people will remain diversions. Which makes me wonder: how will gays - or any Americans – react when faced with the next imminent threat? Deadened by trendy moral relativism, will we even be able to recognize such a thing anymore?
If comfy, urban gays think they can’t “breathe” now, wait until they really start suffocating – not from the widely promoted ”fact” of greenhouse gases, rising seas, and over-population – but from a rapid rise in religious fundamentalism brought on as a direct result of the hardcore secular, anti-family, anti-life legislation most “progressives” support. The gays will wish they could turn back time and vote for John McCain!
In his book, The Empty Cradle: How Falling Birthrates Threaten World Prosperity (and What to Do About It), author Phillip Longman presents demographic evidence that over-population is, like global warming, a myth (that the scientific community and the media can’t afford to give up). Rather than growing, world population is actually shrinking, and at alarming speed - a concept that does not bode well for gays or any other “liberal” minority.
Why? Because, writes Longman, unless people start having more babies – and fast - ”unsustainable trends end.” Current global fertility rates are half what they were in 1972. According to the Census Bureau, by 2050, one out of every five Americans will be over 65. Imagine the seismic cultural shift Madison Avenue will have to make in order to attract that hot new 55-99 demographic! You’ve come a long way, granny.
Yet our culture continues to promote endless, sexy images of successful, attractive, single individuals who are always in complete control of their personal choices and surroundings.
“Population growth underlies our modern concept of freedom,” Longman declares. “Not since the fall of the Roman Empire has the world ever experienced anything on the scale of today’s loss of fertility.” And when people die off, fundamentalism blossoms – to keep the species going. Many of the attitudes we associate with the Victorian Era - religious revivalism, moral rigidity, gender role conformity, intolerance of birth control, glorification of motherhood – were actually rooted not in religion, but in demography.
The Industrial Revolution threw people into the cities, where children suddenly became economic burdens and obstacles to upward mobility. Husbands and wives no longer worked together at home, the number of single women and prostitutes skyrocketed – so late Victorian housewives took it upon themselves to march the streets as moral crusaders for the good of society.
Yes, lesbians and gays (and suburban swingers) can look forward to a whole new generation of PC-resistant Anita Bryant mutations, fighting sin to save the children. Escalating national debt – check! – and a soon-to-be-massively-overburdened ObamaCare bureaucracy – check! – could help Puritanical thrift and temperance make monstrous comebacks.
Previously gay-friendly friends and neighbors could become more suspicious of “alternate lifestyles,” not because the Bible or the Koran demands it – well, maybe the Koran - but because they would no longer be able to afford the luxury of such conduct. “Those who reject modernity,” says Longman, ”seem to have an evolutionary advantage, whether they are clean-living Mormons, or Muslims… ”
To quote Turkey’s Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan: “Have babies – Allah wants it.”
According to the London Times, the number of Muslims living in the UK grew by half a million between 2004 and 2008 alone – a growth rate 10 times that of the rest of the country’s population. And this isn’t by accident. In Australia, for instance, British-based Sheik Abdul Raheem Green exhorted Muslim couples to have no less than four children each - to ensure that the land down under becomes a pure Islamic state.
Today, there are no less than 85 Shariah courts operating in the UK. As columnist Peter Whittle recently pointed out in the Telegraph, a ”survey by Policy Exchange… showed that 72 percent of young Muslim men thought that homosexuality should be recriminalised,” reminding that “there are some pretty disturbing things being said by some Imans about what is best for gays, i.e. death.” (Could it, perchance, be time for American gays to rethink their hostility towards the Mormons? Just asking.)
So-called “youth gangs,” contemptuous of infidels – that’s us - have made cities all over Europe increasingly dangerous for women, Jews and gays. The upside is that the rise in gay-bashings by young Muslims has caused many hitherto left-wing Dutch gays to vote conservative by a nearly 2-to-1 margin.
Yet good American progressives continue to shill for a nanny state, willfully ignoring the fact that socialism in Sweden and the Soviet Union failed miserably to maintain even replacement-level fertility rates – never mind the gaping holes a shrinking populace puts in the sails of the environmental windjammer. What a concept: mankind might actually be part of Mother Gaia, after all; without resorting to killer tax hikes, health care rationing, or concentration camps, we may just destroy ourselves naturally! So recycle while ye may!
And fasten your seat belts, boys – or start hooking up with some surrogate moms quick. Because unless we actively try to keep the species going, we’re ushering in what Longman calls “the fundamentalist moment… a fundamentalist future.” As the saying goes, everything old becomes new again – be it positive eugenics, the Jackson Five, or the Islamic Caliphate.
So the next time you’re up in a plane, looking down at the earth, and you see a bunch of tiny dots moving across the landscape like ants, remember that’s all we are: bugs on a rotating ball. Mother Nature has a plan for us, and she’s in no hurry to tell us what it is.
In the meantime, don’t get too comfortable, because it only takes a moment to step out of line, fall out of favor – and get smushed.








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210 Comments
Ayup. Germany expects to become a mostly Islamic state sometime within the next 30 years at their current fertility rate, and Italy has supposedly passed the point of no return for cultural sustainability in terms of fertility when it comes to Western culture; it's a good thing their immigrant Muslim population is picking up the slack.
Looks like we might have one of these "compassionate" lefties on the Supreme Court:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pag...
Excelent column, very well written and very informative. It so refreshing to read something so well written.
EXCELLENT article, Mr. Winecoff.
Yeah it turns out Justice Ginsburg is cool with decreasing the surplus population.
http://kingshamus.wordpress.com/2009/07/10/justic...
And these people have the nerve to call conservatives 'fascists'.
Planned society. Planned communities. Planned Parenthood. This has been going on since the dawn of time. The difference here is that for the MOST part, we don't plan society from top down. It explodes from the bottom up. It isn't controlled like some Japanese Garden. Everything is just so.
Yes, we do have a garden. It is called the Constitution. It's fertilizer, the Declaration of Independence. It isn't a plan. Just a structure. The growth of the United States, when left alone, Explodes and grows along that structure.
When ever I hear of Planned societies. Eugenics, etc., I think of those statist's as inept Japanese Gardeners who don't understand that structure is the Garden. The statist want's to destroy our garden, foul our fertilizer. So they try to experiment with Eugenics and Euthanasia. It never works in the end, but it is horrible while it is happening.
I think Mr. Winecoff has got it right. Despite all the mewling and wailing about how "progressive" social programs are "for the children", socialist/leftist-run economies seem to be the most unfriendly places to have and raise children. Mark Steyn has documented the effects of population implosion with its "birth dearth" in Europe. In Russia, among the non-Muslim population, abortions outnumber live births. The irony is, countries and states with extensive social-welfare programs need an expanding population (more taxpayers) to survive.
I loved – and agreed with – every word of this article. Fantastic job as usual. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us. It'll be interesting to see if there is a paradigm shift in the future, or if things will keep trying to continue on as usual.
I'd also like to add that, as I've read over your past articles, I noticed that you always find a way to throw in a kind comment about the LDS church, and that nobody ever thanks you for it. I'd like to do that now, because it truly is very much appreciated. Thank you.
Good point. Many who post here are LDS. And Charles does seem to go out of his way to compliment the church. Good Catch.
A second Thank you To Charles. You might not sit next to me on Sunday, but that doesn't mean we can't be friends.
Amen, Sir. I'm glad you talked about Sanger. She's always my first argument regarding abortion. People have no idea how and why Planned Parenthood was started. I have to admit I'm quite smug when I use such argument, b/c there's always a pause then the ol' rape and incest crap begins. Silly little liberals.
Well, it seems like the left leaning groups are simply going by the old Mayan edict: " The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
They forget that, once the common enemy is conquered, the truce is null and void…..
Kuddos Charles! Great post as usual.
I guess I don't understand how her having her treatments at different places was neccessarily a bad thing.
I'm sure I've posted something about our living in eastern Germany on here before, but please humor me again. Because of my husband's job we went back and forth to Germany for a few years. In 2005, the town we lived in, Chemnitz, had no children. In fact, on wikipedia.org (how reliable?) it stated that the town had the lowest birth rate in the world. When we went back in 2007, there had been a population explosion – babies, babies everywhere. But most of the babies appeared to be with unemployed moms and dads. We'd see them at the park smoking and socializing while the babies were lined up in little rows in their fancy strollers. I also saw another baby explosion on the 2nd visit – lots of babies to moms who were veiled from head-to-toe. I think the 2nd group is going to outnumber the 1st quite easily. Also, when we visited Austria, all of the babies I saw were with their Muslim moms. It was quite strange actually. It looked as if we were on the set of "The Sound of Music" but there were no little babies resembling the Von Trapps.
What a thought provoking, enlightening article. I was mesmerized. Thank you for taking what is obiously a great deal of time to prepare and write it.
BWP…not only are we friends but you might be shocked in how much we have in common….
I have 3 sons and my name will go on for generations because of it if they have 3 sons an so forth…..
The commandment "Be fruitful and multiply" has not been revoked….
We in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have always been encouraged to have large families.
Family is the foundation of society, large or small. The morals of the world today are to constantly attack
the unit ordained by Heavenly Father…..
BWP…not only are we friends but you might be shocked in how much we have in common….
I have 3 sons and my name will go on for generations because of it if they have 3 sons and so forth…..
The commandment "Be fruitful and multiply" has not been revoked….
We in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have always been encouraged to have large families.
Family is the foundation of society, large or small. The morals of the world today are to constantly attack
the unit ordained by Heavenly Father…..
[...] backwards and sexist and had no place in our progressive society, but this is science talking. A-holes and Insects – or Mother Nature Doesn’t Care If You’re a Good Liberal – bighollywood.breitbart.com 07/10/2009 Decades before George Clooney began using “Darfur” to [...]
Thank you, Charles, for another thoughtful article. I try never to miss one and they always make me think. Sadly, I fear things will get worse before people wake up. I just hope it won't be too late when they do.
I almost had a (insert some weird feeling here) while I was reading this article. It mirrors the thoughts that I have had over my long life here on this revolving planet we call home.
As if that really means anything in the big picture. The "progressives" are still trying to determine who lives and who doesn't. Not only that, but now they want to determine how the rest of us will live and what quality of life we will be allowed. I guess I should remind everyone that "progressives" include mostly socialists and communists (even if they don't want to acknowledge it.).
Something here needs to be repeated. The Islamic world is determined to conquer our world. They will do it by the sword or by overwhelming us with an expanding Muslim population and using our own laws (and ones that they can change) against us. Obama didn't have the numbers right when he stated the U.S. rank in number of muslims but he knows something that most Americans don't. He knows that with the declining American birthrate, compounded by his health plan that will neglect..nay…rid America of it's elderly, and the overwhelming rate of procreation by the Muslims here and in other parts of the world, America will move up in the ranks of the number of Muslim population at an unprecedented rate.
Sorry, but I thought that needed to be said again.
Some say that we are entering dark times and that it will only get worse. That may be so, but I have confidence in America, in Americans. The ones that you never hear about and that indeed the silent majority. Well I believe in them and I also believe that in the next few years they will not be so silent, nor neglect their responsibility to our Republic. I believe that they will indeed rise up and defeat the enemies within our Nationm, either by vote or by armed revolt.
Mark my words.
Papa Ray
West Texas
So what's a good final figure for a stable population in the USA, and how should we go about achieving that?
Most conservative won't even attempt to answer that. The mere idea of doing so seems like blasphemy to them. Contrary to all reason and common sense, they're convinced that the endless population growth ponzi scheme which the USA embraces can literally last forever. Therefore, they see no reason to even think about ending it. Admitting that population can't grow forever would be admitting the dirty hippie liberals were right about something, and most conservatives would rather destroy humanity than admit such a thing.
Remember,. Mother Nature doesn't care if you're scared of the Islamofascist hordes and think that white Christians have to start outbreeding the swarthy folk. She doesn't care what you think of gays, or how vehemently you attack phantom socialists. If you try unlimited population growth on a finite planet, she's eventually going to slap you down hard, and no conservative platitudes will save you.
I can answer my own question, of course. Down to 200 million over the next century, done primarily by ending immigration. Bad new for the Mexicans, but not our problem. I see no need to demonize them, I just don't want any humans of any type coming in. Most liberals have a problem in that they won't do what's absolutely required for population control, which is stopping immigration, but at least they admit there's a problem. Don't worry, I'll work on them.
[...] original here: A-holes and Insects – or Mother Nature Doesn’t Care If You’re a Good Liberal This entry is filed under America – Blogs, Big Hollywood. You can follow any responses to this [...]
My paternal grandmother also has 18 pregnancies. 9 survived.
Here is Justice Ginsberg take on things:
"Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of."
Who exactly are the populations "we don't want too many of" ?
Mamooth, as always, your lack of history and intelligence is stunning.
There is no such thing as a stable population. It is always changing. What doesn't change from time to time is people like you who think that they can control it. What you can control is your contribution to your family. That is all. Why don't you go back and try and do that?
At the risk of repeating myself, Charles, after every one of your articles: Thank you for another brilliant, insightful, well-written job. I look forward to many more.
Yeah, the libs really cannot make sense of Sanger. She is such a blight on their happy little arguments that to be confronted by it usually sends them into cognitive dissonance overload.
They pro-abortion crowd really thinks that abortion is just 'choice', when in reality the woman who started PP just wanted to get rid of the unwanted members of society. Amazing when you think about it.
He still made the comment.
I know. It actually sounds like investigative reporting…
Because generally you want consistency in chemotherapy – lab results can get lost switching them from place to place – chemo nurses take an interest in patients they see routinely and make sure all the lab tests are on the chart – doctors who follow the patient from day one to cure or …. generally have a better handle on what the disease is doing. Sometimes a patient "looks sick". It isn't something you can quantify; just something about them that isn't "right". This makes the doctor perhaps order a test or a lab s/he might not. When the doctor in town B gets a report from town A, s/he doesn't "know" the patient. S/he is quite capable of following the therapy regimen, but little things slip through the crack. It's not a great idea to jump around the country having chemo treatments.
The assumption based on Malthus and his predictions is entirely bogus but people still hang on to it because it makes so much *sense*. Right? Do the old, take a nickle, double it, double it again, and how quickly are you a millionaire? Right? So figure the same thing with reproduction and oh, my GAWD! The world is going to end.
It doesn't work that way, though, and it never has, contrary to all reason and common sense. It NEVER has.
Sometimes things are non-intuitive. Sometimes you have to look at what actually happens in the real world in stead of looking at what you think ought to happen or what someone explained to you once in a way that made so much sense.
What you fail to realize is that people are the ultimate resource. It isn't coal or uranium or iron or even oil. It is people. In the aggregate, people solve problems. More people = more people to figure shit out.
Also, you act as if the planet going to run out of room any time soon. It is not, but when it does, people will go someplace else. Colonize the moon, colonize Mars and then up and out. We're not necessarily stuck on the third stone from the sun.
For more on this I'd direct you to the Julian Simon versus Paul Ehrlich bet.
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=44
I don't know that Ginsberg was agreeing or simply stating her own understanding of the thinking and atmosphere at the time.
It's telling though, that it really *was* the thinking of the time.
Someone said, and I'd never heard this before, that Sanger was actually horrified by the idea of abortion. She still wanted the genetically unfit, due to poverty or race, to stop reproducing, but through birth control and sterilization, not by killing babies.
Interestingly, Margaret Sanger was horrified by abortion. One wonders what she would think of Planned Parenthood now.
vatz, the plain truth is that the only people occupying wealthy, industrialized societies who procreate at, or above, the replacement rate are devoutly religious. Your suggestion has merit.
Viewing people (and children) as contributors rather than consumers is a fundamental difference in outlook between those (usually religious) people who think that having children is a good thing and those who feel that having children is an indulgence and should be discouraged.
Do children enrich us, or bleed us dry? Do more children increase the love in a family or take it away by dividing parents attention?
Curiously (and maybe I should have posted this comment on the end instead of embedded here in the middle) but the outlook that children are an indulgence coincides with increased indulgence towards children. At the same time as no one wants your children around, and no one wants to restrict themselves in the very least with the idea that some images and ideas aren't appropriate for children or at the very least that accomodation shouldn't have to be made by adults in the community for the presence of other people's children (who are apparently not a proper part of that community)… if your children are too well behaved (not actually a problem I had!) or if your children do chores at a young age or contribute financially to the family… there is a lot of disapproval directed toward the parents.
It's almost as if the assumption that children are consumers and that they are an indulgence is enforced against those who believe otherwise.
To all the libs who are worried about over-population: Do mother earth and us a favor and off yourselves. Problem solved!
Oh, I did want to say that relieving population pressure by colonizing space doesn't work. We should do it! And for a lot of reasons. But it doesn't, and can't, move enough people.
But that's okay, because too many people isn't the problem. Getting *enough* people might be.
Because contrary to what those who hang on to the overpopulation meme believe, the problem is that fertility in 1st world nations is negative. If it's not, the only reason is the influx of immigrants from poorer nations, but that doesn't hold up for long. It's fairly clear that the *only* thing necessary for voluntary infertility to become fashionable is wealth and education. People who can will have one or two children, which doesn't begin to make up for those people who *can't*.
The indisputable fact is that people in industrialized, modern, nations not only are not overpopulating the world, they are reproducing at significantly below even replacement rates.
And since keeping people in poverty is NOT an acceptable solution, we'd do well to give up the idea that we have to indoctrinate young people with the idea that children are a scourge on the earth.
Because then maybe instead of one or two children, they'll decide to have two or three.
[...] and we have a President who would love nothing more than to extend that ban to all the states. A-holes and Insects – or Mother Nature Doesn’t Care If You’re a Good Liberal – bighollywood.breitbart.com 07/10/2009 Decades before George Clooney began using “Darfur” to [...]
Because they are better than the rest of us and know best
And they aren't procreating.
Which was the point.
I think Ginsberg's use of the pronoun "we", tell me she was in agreement.
The only people who are reproducing at, or above, replacement rate in Europe are Muslims and Christians. Mostly Muslims. The reproduction rate of secular types is far below replacement, which is why some of the lefties in Europe are waking up to the fact that something has to be done or Europe won't even be recognizable in a few generations.
As for your "smarter, more capable citizenry" comment, I don't even know where to begin. Start by reading the history of Western civilization, and you will understand that the greatness of Europe, from the Greeks to the Industrial Revolution, was its Christian foundation, which led to unprecedented creation of wealth, mass literacy, modern science, and individual rights.
A consistent element of those who advocate "control" and/or "decrease" in population is that they are never referring to any action that will involve any inconvenience to themselves.
Stop immigration (even the legal kind)? No problem for them, since they're already here.
Massive enforced birth control? No problem, since most progressives have no desire to have more than 1 or 2 children.
Reduce the population of the "undesirables" (see the eugencist of the early 20th century)? Well, you know they don't mean themselves or anyone they associate with.
Of course, one could point out that between 1968 (the heyday of Erlich's 'Population Bomb') and 1990 (a generation later), the world's population more than doubled, from 2.8 billion to 6.4 billion…but deaths due to famine decreased by 16%. You could also point out that there has never been a famine in a country with a free press. But the overpopulation myth will never die, as there are those who will forever cling to a certain progressive myth: that the world's economy is a zero-sum game – goods and services are like a pizza, someone else getting more means I get less, and as more people come to the table, I'll end up having to eat the box.
Oh, I see… are you equating the secular nature of those nations to the industrialization?
I don't think that would hold at all, as the industrial base and direction developed prior to the secularization. Didn't it?
And I think that the people who are more likely to idealize some concept of the noble savage or a pastoral low-tech society are not those who consider the concept of original sin. In fact, aren't the liberal secular sorts trying to save the world from industrialization by trying to convince us all to buy fair trade coffee picked by quaint natives living in that idealized state of nature rather than by organizations large enough to mechanize?
Yes, that was the point. I think vatz, busy with his comment-bombing spree, might have missed that. But the other point, that secular –> industrialized, is bogus.
Fantastic Charles,
This whole issue makes one think. Most people it seems to me are between Sangerites and Ahmadinijad and don't even know it. Its hard for me to believe anyone who was raised as a Christian could be so callous about human life, and then we have the religious zealots. And what is even more strange, is how strangly alike they are.
Mr. Winecoff, this is excellent. Thank you for speaking to the myth of overpopulation. I remember as a grade-schooler having the Ethiopian famine thrust upon me as an argument that populations in the world are too high. "What happens if we breed ourselves out of food?! We don't want to end up like the poor Ethiopians!" Even as an adult conservative, I still bought into the myth as it became "common knowledge." Only now, as I challenge EVERYTHING that I learned in school, do I see that we have been sold a bill of goods when it comes to looking at the worlds problems. And the ultimate agenda- regardless of the reason: control; and the ultimate control, regardless of the means: life and death.
I too agree that kind words are in order and appreciated. I grew up in an LDS home in the deep south. I am no longer a member, however most of my family is and many of my friends. They are just good people.
I was back there recently for a week and my mom and I had great conversations ranging from politics to gays. Many of the topics were things we have never discussed and since it was just us two for the week there were no rules. I asked my mom how she would feel if one of her children had been gay and she said that she would be supportive and continue to be a major part of their life. I don't know why this surprised me, my mom has never been anything but kind and lovely. This started me thinking about the article you wrote Charles about how gays had to have some kind of cause, focusing on their obsession for gay marriage. They targeted these lovely people in a trashing campaign and I dare say without really ever just having a conversation with one of them. I guess considering and respecting their faith just isn't PC in the activist world.
it's like arguing with the guy on a street corner carrying "the world will end" sign. yeah, undoubtedly some day it will, but the fact that the earth will eventually succumb to the laws of physics (perhaps some billions of years from now) doesn't make him prescient, just alarmist. and outstripping the food supply isn't even a physical inevitability.
Pro-gay marriage, I would imagine.
Which isn't surprising. How hard is it to give something away that has no value?
People who are concerned about how marriage is weakened, who see value in submitting yourself to a union that isn't always fun… indeed, getting along with another person is hard enough, and children are emotionally draining and exhausting… which is why so many ladies at the supermarket with small children look like they might have slept in what they are wearing, are overweight and look just a little bit *dull*, if you know what I mean. Not the picture of an attractive go-getter in complete control of her choices and surroundings!.. anyhow… if you see value in that very unromantic image and the task undertaken and sticking with each other through that time when no one gets enough sleep and no one is particularly attractive or in control of *anything*… and once you get through it you're just old… it's harder to say, oh, what the heck, who cares anyway?
And while people may be wrong about gay marriage as any sort of threat… there is a very real threat to marriage and family and certainly (as we've been discussing here) the attitude people have about children. In fact, I'd say that the only people who truly care that marriage itself remain (or return to) a profound commitment and true union, and who have the most in common in that regard, are gay people and religious conservatives.
Our culture absolutely denigrates the notion that anyone should submit herself, or himself, to the needs of his or her family. That, right there, turns marriage into cohabitation rather than a union.
In any case, I think that Wincoff is likely very right that at some point there will be a reversal in attitudes about morality. Nothing ever goes BACK, of course… it goes onward.
I think I should have started with a more basic question for Joelm, so he wouldn't have felt so compelled to pull a Palin. Joelm, do you think infinite population growth on a finite planet is possible? I think you'd have to be crazy to say "yes", but I'm curious to see to what extremes blind dogma can push someone.
The other replies are intelligent, and deserve a response. Saying "people are a resource" is a platitude, something that sounds like it came from our corporate HR department..Being a member of the reality-based community, I deal with reality, not platitudes. This is a finite planet, and that fact can't be handwaved away with platitudes. There is finite space, water, energy. No matter how many techno-wonders you pile up, the stuff runs out if the population keeps growing. Simon ignores that reality, and assumed short term trends could be extrapolated infinitely. He's kind of fortunate that he died before he could see otherwise. Infinity is a lot. You can't put infinity on a finite planet, no matter how loudly you swear you can.
Moreover, having massive throngs people on a finite planet is not a good thing from a quality of life standpoint. Everyone raise your hand if you'd like to see the population around you increase tenfold. Any hands up? Didn't think so. We've long passed the point where increasing population will increase quality of life. Population growth has to stop somewhere. Given that it has to stop somewhere, I think it would be best to do so before we're all packed in like rats in a cage.
Space travel will _never_ be an answer. Even under the most wildly favorable projections, emigration to space can at best only slightly slow down Earth's population growth. You could launch a thousand ships a day, and it wouldn't be enough. The numbers just don't work.
Japan has a slightly negative population growth, and the population there is projected to drop in half over the next century. And they don't use any coerced population control, which I imagine drives the conspiracy theorists here crazy. Japan just bans immigration, and natural demographic changes are doing the rest.. Strangely, they don't seem to be collapsing economically or socially. Japan suffered major economic pain in the short term, because pulling out of a Ponzi scheme will hurt. But in the long run, they're in a much better position than we are.
WOW – First time I have read one of your articles – you are a GENIUS! Very well written – a flash of brilliance in a dull (and duller) blogosphere. Now if we could just syndicate some of your knowledge and share the wealth…
They collapsed economically in the 90's. Ooops, there is that history thing again. Wow.
Why do you guys want to destroy the quality of life?
Whatever you recommend, it always ends up destroying the quality of life.
Just leave us alone. Go back under your bridge and try to collect your friends with you.
"The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less." – Rule 29
Hm. Mother Nature also doesn't care what control freaks like yourself "plan" to do to "control" the numbers of those pesky humans.
Oh sure, you won't demonize them. I can see someone like you doing whatever it takes with absolutely no sense of hatred, just a sincere feeling that it is What Is Right… and destroying far more than a hateful person ever could.
This article reminds me of the rising numbers of "global warming" environmental alarmists who contend that humans are in fact the greatest threat and enemy of the planet and therefore should be limited if not reduced in numbers.
In their usual myopia and elitist "I already got mine so screw the rest of you" attitude they fail to realize that the carbon footprint of a small child is dramatically smaller than that of a full grown adult. Couple this with the fact that our youth have unlimited potential for developing new ideas, new technologies and new solutions for today's problems. Additionally, children's smaller footprint would be buying the planet extra time, as much as 30 years or so, till their carbon footprint matches those of the people now calling for their prevention. Unfortunately, the best solution of these population alarmists is to limit the birthrate. If that's the best they can come up with I think they have already outlived their usefulness. They fail to see the best thing they could do for the planet is to remove themselves first and let the next generation develope new technologies to do things cleaner and better.
Very interesting article! And as a conservative 30-something woman who hasn't had kids… ummmm… maybe I'm feeling more than a little guilty!
Read "No Prayers for the Assassin" by Ferrigno. Not a great writer, but the futuristic is set in 2020+ America where the country has split into "Islamic Republic of America" and the South (Bible Belt) with a few neutral areas (NV is a sin zone and I couldn't figure out California). In the book, DC, NY and a few other cities have been nuked, there is plague in a few others. The Jews were blamed for nuking DC, NY etc. The president was elected as a Christian but converted to Islam in the middle of his term; a few celebrities (movie stars and basketball players) likewise converted, the country was a mess, the "sheeple" followed the celebrities and the president, the South revolted, and that was the situation. The plot was a thriller with a moderate Muslim good guy trying to save his lady love from being killed. Good read basically for the creepiness of what happened to America. It wouldn't have worked if it didn't seem possible. And, by the way, I read the book before Barack Obama's name was even known to anyone outside of IL.
"Hey everybody lets all get laid!"
The moderation filter is getting tedious! I just wrote a long post which will duplicate here only trying to avoid the filter – Recommended reading a book by Robert Ferrigno called – Well, can't say because what you do in church on your knees was in the title as was the act of murdering someone for a living – not hired killer or hit man but the a word. I mentioned that it was a futuristic that took place in the middle of the 21st c twelve years after the president who as elected while a member of the world's largest religion but converted to the world's second largest religion midway through his first term. A few celebrities likewise converted to the second largest religion whereupon most of those in the northern part of the US did the same and that part of the country became the second largest religion republic of America. The South rebelled (again) and so the country was essentially blue state being second largest religion and red state being world's largest religion. The book was written years before anyone knew the current president's name.
Now, let's see if this round about mess of a post gets past the filter.
Hoo Hah! Got it through the filter. Of course, you have to have a code book to figure out what I said.
"Many of the attitudes we associate with the Victorian Era – religious revivalism, moral rigidity, gender role conformity, intolerance of birth control, glorification of motherhood – were actually rooted not in religion, but in demography." THAT's a keeper quote. The positives of the Victorian era outweigh the few dastardly negatives – ie leaving something to the imagination, good manners, good breeding, community involvement, turning to God. I often think I was born in the wrong era.
Excellent article! I always enjoy reading when you write!
If we don't come to our collective senses soon, suffer the fate of the Roman Empire we will…..
We've ceased to see children as a blessing to a fruitful marriage. Children are considered a "burden" or an "environmental hazard" by many- and the birth rates are there to prove it. This is a sad time in history, because we are depleting our greatest nature resoure- people.
I'd highly recomend if anyone liked this post, they visit http://www.omsoul.com and read or listen to Dr. Janet Smith's presentation: "Contracteption: Why Not?". Or read Mark Steyn's book, "America Alone".
Ok, that makes sense. I hope you didn't think I was attacking you. I just didn't understand where you were coming from. When I read your post I was thinking that perhaps it was good for someone to try to keep to their regular routines/lives – and if that meant traveling then so be it.
Didn't take it as an attack, just assumed you were asking for your own edification or information.
I think most chemo patients do travel and live their lives, factoring these things in around the chemo. This person I'm describing, and I only used her as a device, was cavalier (in my opinion) about the chemo just as we Americans (also in my opinion) are cavalier about what could happen to us and our country. I see using more than one chemo physician as tantamount to having one surgeon open you up, a second surgeon do the surgery and then a third surgeon sew you up and take care of you post-op. Doesn't make sense to me. Frankly, I've never heard of any patient doing what this woman did, i.e. moving for months at a time to her next home while undergoing chemotherapy. Again, I was only using her as a device, comparing her to America, having lived a charmed life and assuming the charm would go on. She was a wonderful person and the world did not benefit from her loss. Then again, neither will the world benefit from America's spiraling into "just another country" as Obama and his cohorts seem determined to effect.
My daughter is 24 and has been in 4 weddings in the past 2 years. These friends are now pregnant with their first babies and, of course, the first babies of friends married and unmarried are continually being born. I was amazed at how young they are and asked her why they were marrying at the age when life "was just starting" for them and why the push to have kids so soon. She told me that most of her girlfriends and their husbands were only children or had just one sibling. Their (mostly divorced) parents were always working most of the time they were growing up and, when they weren't working, they were being carted off to soccer games or practice, dance recitals, scouts, whatever their parents involved them in. It occurred to me that the baby boomer generation could end up with 3 or 4 grandchildren from just their one and only offspring. These kids grew ups lonely, too busy, and with not enough contact with their parents. They are marrying early and having families to create what their parents couldn't or wouldn't give to them.
As always, a very well thought out and eye-opening article Charles.
When I was a kid I remember the environmental threat was the depletion of the ozone layer. Is that still on the environmentalist radar? It seems as if there is always a catastrophic threat looming that requires humanity to stop breeding for the "collective" good. At least that's how the Left sells it.
The genetic engineering going on now is also slightly alarming. I know couples who have gone through a very specific form of in-vitro fertilization that's sole function is to enable them to choose the gender of their children. That never seemed right to me. It's as if we're saying that what God chooses to bless us with isn't good enough. Beyond that though, how long before we start seeing people choosing the eye/hair color, athletic ability, intelligence etc. of their children. That seems like a slippery slope. And now, the talk is all about sperm cells being created by stem cells in a petri dish. That seems like something destined to go wrong to me. Playing God always seems to come back and bite-us in the a**. But maybe that's just me.
At any rate, for a group of people who seem to thing we should stop breeding, the elites certainly like to make sure that what is bred fits a certain criteria don't they? Eugenics is fashionable– no?
As always, a very well thought out and eye-opening article Charles.
When I was a kid I remember the environmental threat was the depletion of the ozone layer. Is that still on the environmentalist radar? It seems as if there is always a catastrophic threat looming that requires humanity to stop breeding for the "collective" good. At least that's how the Left sells it.
The genetic engineering going on now is also slightly alarming. I know couples who have gone through a very specific form of in-vitro fertilization that's sole function is to enable them to choose the gender of their children. That never seemed right to me. It's as if we're saying that what God chooses to bless us with isn't good enough. Beyond that though, how long before we start seeing people choosing the eye/hair color, athletic ability, intelligence etc. of their children. That seems like a slippery slope. And now, the talk is all about sperm cells being created by stem cells in a petri dish. That seems like something destined to go wrong to me. Playing God always seems to come back and bite-us in the a**. But maybe that's just me.
At any rate, for a group of people who seem to thing we should stop breeding, the elites certainly like to make sure that what is bred fits a certain criteria don't they? Eugenics is fashionable– no?
Rodney Dangerfield, Caddyshack
In any case, sounds like plan to me.
This is a bit rambling, but editing on this page is difficult, and my son (4 weeks old this Monday) keeps my regeneration through adequate sleep pretty much a daydream. So, please be patient, this all does have a point and one that is related to the original article.
Part I
What isn't fully addressed, due to length limitations, is the source of the leftist elitism and tendency toward totalitarianism. Why does the left tend to these positions? Why does secularism lead to ever-increasing totalitarianism?
The reason is that the rejection of God, or of anything greater than man that orders the universe in the moral sense, leads to man usurping the place of God. As Whittaker Chambers pointed out, the death squads in the Soviet Union weren't anomalies (as the left attempted to paint them after the fact) – they were the inevitable result of the ideology. If all of society must function in a specific way to function smoothly, without a moral bearing (an actual belief in absolute Truths, not relativistic, amorphous "truths") it is actually *necessary* to eliminate certain people. Of course, those at the top, the elites, the scientists, the educated, etc., are the ones to make that decision.
That is why it is the standard MO for liberals to say what is best for you without a second thought. Often, they might not even know the source of this position. It has fallen into the "everybody knows" realm of "truth." "Everybody knows" X is "bad for you," thus we must prevent you from doing it.
Western egocentrism has not helped this situation and, indeed, has only exacerbated it. With the growth of egocentrism in the West (starting, mostly, with the Latin theologians and the adoption of Aristotelian scholasticism in the 9th century, the inevitable spread of epistemological dualism leading to the twin horrors of the Renaissance and the so-called Enlightenment) the idea that man has usurped the role of God is simply the basic starting point for all raised in the culture. Thus, we have the myth that you "keep your beliefs to yourself," and there there is "what you believe" and "the *real* world." This epistemological dualism, of course, has even infected Western Christianity (the church in Rome, included, and is the very basis for all Protestantism) to the point that ontological dualism is a fundamental dogma of all Protestantism and a functional aspect of Latinism (though NOT dogmatic).
All of this, over the centuries, like the slow increase in a crack in the street due to rain and heat, has given us the Western culture we now deal with and in. Only in such an atmosphere could the idea of social engineering based on the sheer will of human arrogance ever flourish. That is why, in Russia, the extreme minority of Marxists found it necessary to impose their Western beliefs on the rest of the populace at gunpoint.
In the US, we attempted to create a "compromise" with this beast or, as Blessed Father Seraphim Rose called it, the "revolution." But, as Blessed Seraphim Rose also said, there is no compromise with the "revolution." It will result in a form of totalitarianism. Tage Lindbom, one of the architects of Swedish semi-socialism, came to this same conclusion and outlined it in his short work "The Myth of Democracy." As Lindbom points out, and as our Founding Fathers followed, Rousseau was the first to really replace God in government.
Rousseau understood that a governmental system must not only have horizontal integrity (the actual governmental system itself) but vertical integrity – some sort of force or power that exists beyond human control, that is greater than any one man or group of men, something "mystical," in order to be "valid." Rousseau, a good Westerner, hated the concept of God in such a role – the idea that absolute Truths (the definition of morality) – could limit his, or anyone else's "choice" (defined as the action of the individual ego) was unacceptable. Thus, he popularized the idea of the "will of the people," or the "voice of the people," as that semi-mystical force that gives validity to any particular governmental structure. And this idea was behind both Marxism and Western republics/democracies.
Part II
But what happens when the "people" change? What happens, as Blessed Seraphim Rose said was inevitable, when the human ego, run amok and unchecked, comes *blatantly* into power? You get semi-socialist states, increasing levels of big-brotherism, statism, totalitarianism. Then all of the vaunted cries to appeals to the Constitution or the Federalist Papers or the Declaration of Independence are laid bare for their lack of genuine appeal: why those documents and not others? If the majority of people want to "re-make" America, as they appeared to do by voting for Obama in the last presidential election, why must we keep from "re-interpreting" the Constitution (the "living document" theory)? Why not just re-write it? Why is it so sacred? It's old and, like those stupid established religions, doesn't take into account our needs today.
Concurrent with the growth of Western egocentrism has been the idea of scientism. The idea that human wisdom is greater, and a greater measure, in and of reality. So churches abandon beliefs to comport with "science," rendering their own dogmas worthless (as man, not God, now determines the content of the Faith). People subconsciously see "later in time" as "more evolved," "more advanced," and "more intelligent." Look at our language, even at our academics – the straight-line theory of cultural development is in play everywhere.
This enters into the "everyone knows" realm of knowledge, as well. What we are left with is a conflagration of effects: Western egocentrism, scientism (which also manifests itself in modernism, materialism, etc.), and secularism. What we get is totalitarianism.
The "fundamentalism" isn't so much a rejection of "modernism." Science and religion have never been at odds, except in the mind of Western intellectuals as the ever-increasing play of egocentrism in the West led many to abandon God for their own "wisdom." It is a rejection of the slow meeting of those three factors mentioned hereinabove. That is, the false separation between physical and spiritual realities, the worship of the human intellect in the form of materialism and scientism (and which is little more than a manifestation of individual egocentrism) and the abandonment of God.
These effects, began long ago and working throughout the centuries, then, are the sources, often unknown and not consciously contemplated by modern, Western culture and especially not consciously acknowledged by those on the left, of the mentality of those like Sanger. Of course, this unique, Western system manifests itself in many ways – forced compassion, enviro-nuttiness that masquerades selflessness, identity politics (another form of searching for a mystical "greater-than-man" unifying factor), etc. But the underlying concept of man as god, that man knows best, that all beliefs are subject to the human intellect, is the under-girding principle behind each manifestation.
That is why those who reject these notions seem "odd" and why "fundamentalism" is such a dirty word these days. Those people don't fall in line with what "everyone knows," they don't bow at the alter of "science" and "progress." They don't have to be primitives, they can drive cars, they just don't see materialism as the same thing as "progress." New gadgets does not a more moral society make. Greater "scientific" break-throughs do not make any one society more "advanced," morally.
But, when God is abandoned and man is all that is left, whatever glorifies the human intellect is necessarily evidence of the true greatness of that intellect (and, by proxy, each individual ego).
Again, sorry about this length, but I was (poorly) attempting to explain what lies underneath what people like Sanger say, do and believe, and not just criticize them with the implied "everyone knows" to back up why they deserve criticism. After all, depending on your starting assumptions, you could very well reason your way right to where Sanger wound up.
the sinner,
Patrick
Modern Europe, as a matter of fact Western Civilization as we know it is largely a Christian construct; the Templar Knights created the modern banking and credit systems, and the Magna Carta codified much of this into law which was then brilliantly updated in the US constitution.
It was Aristotlean concepts of freedom that got the ball rolling…
Yes. Of course, everything we're told about Eastasia in 1984 is government propaganda meant to keep the population under strict government control by maintaining a constant state of war. Not unlike the panic-stricken posts on Big Hollywood.
Nice idea to celebrate life. You might want to think about celebrating reading comprehension, too. (PS — Big Brother wasn't the good guy…)
Damn it! you made me start remembering a book I had to read in College and now I can't recall the name… It was about a family who discovers their unborn son has the potential for being gay and the family strugles with the idea of aborting him and possibly losing the last chance for a child.
Granted it's been damn near fifteen years since I read it…
In any case that's the ultimate goal of the abortionists isn't it? Customized children… Don't like what it may be? start again.
Population control dictated by some political power rather than the individual.
I don't recall that practice working out too well in China.
Honestly… I think if the left wants to abort it's next several generations away let them… Let them practice population control, in twenty to forty years the numbers will swing back our way and they will be to egotistical to realize they were the architects of their own downfall.
The Magna Carta had almost as little to do with Christianity as Aristotle did.
There are more reasons behind why the adoption politics are going on in that state than just the self-absorbed angle of preventing gays from having what they want. Gays have it GOOD compared to adoptees wanting access to their original birth certificates – which makes adoptees more of a second class citizen than gays. Are gays prepared to fight for the opening of those records? Before you fling that canard, look into the adoption politics. You'll find stuff there that truly frightens.
That's the difference between those who cloak themselves in PCness, and those who don't
you're missing the point.
Christian social and business constructs, not dogma are what's being discussed. Obviously Aristotle preceded Christ. Re-read the post and pay attention this time…
The thing about overpopulation is… I'm less concerned with running out of ROOM than I am with running out of PATIENCE. We, as a species, are not "good" at living packed together against choice – we're pack animals, not herd animals. For the most part, we've always managed to create the population we roughly "needed" for mutual survival. For most of "civilization," that's meant enough people to do the work of keeping things running.
And that's the rub of it: The world is getting more and more MECHANIZED every day, which means fewer and fewer people are needed to keep things running. A thousand men needed to pull a thousand levers becomes a handful of men needed to oil and repair an automatic lever-pulling system. This isn't difficult to grasp. And there wouldn't be a problem if our "morality" – or at least those parts of it we create/augment to give greater meaning to our routines – had kept apace with our mechanization. It hasn't.
I've certainly heard that Paul would have been quite familiar with Greek philosophers and Romans, I suppose, and borrowed heavily. Me? I figure that if something is true it will be observed by various people.
In any case, the idea that any person, no matter how poor, has direct access to God Himself, makes it a bit difficult to suppress the individual forever, though people certainly tried. People who believe that they have direct access to God are likely to get uppity about other things as well. (Thus arguments that democracy is not compatible with Islam, for example.) The economic and production results of something very different from tribalism where your effort and wealth is held in common, or serfdom, are reasonably obvious. (Or should be when people aren't stupid and start to think that production can be maintained indefinitely in spite of the redistribution of wealth.)
The biggest boost to modern development, other than the notion that a person had the right to the product of their own labor, is probably the literacy pushed by the reformation. If every man and woman has direct access to God, then every man and every woman needs to be able to read.
Forgive me for boiling all that you have set out to explain in your two posts, but every time I read about how horrible the Western tradition has been towards God and how eras like the Renaissance and the Enlightenment destroyed the relationship between God and Man…I cant help but wonder if you think even the Magna Carta was hostile to God. The Magna Carta began the change for how people thought of their leaders and people in positions of power.
My second question is: What are you proposing needs to take place to correct this deviance?
nicely reasoned.
The Reformation, yet another non-dogmatic product of Christianity is a very important point. The mystery of awareness of God's infinite grace yet lacking the ability to properly process it is the ongoing struggle Man is obligated to experience; ergo the further spiritual journey we all must take.
As said in the Great Book, 'render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto me that which is mine'. Our secular friends need to understand that aspect of Christian tolerance…
Malthus had an interesting view and took on a scientific/mathematical study of a till then dogma cloaked topic. His ideas work for a bounded system, ie island or area of limited farmable land, but fails to account for physical growth, or technological advancement. Today less people than ever farm, but with modern methods, equipment, and chemicals, are able to feed more than ever. IF YOU UNDERSTAND THIS, THEN YOU CAN GRASP THE TRUE EVIL UNDERLAYING AGENDY BEHIND GLOBAL CO2 CAP AND TRADE. Taxing modern farming methods beyond the reach of the worlds neediest will create a malthusian system. There will be famine and disease the likes that the world has never seen. And all the so called do gooders will wring their hands and cry "how could this happen?" and justify even more globalist "help"
Time to take one , or preferrably four, for the team.
I remember that the rain forest (the so-called "lungs of the earth" – in and of itself a myth) were disappearing at some unholy rate. Wasn't it like "1,000 football fields" a day? Or hour? Or something like that? All I know is that, if true, the rain forests should have disappeared a long, long time ago.
the sinner,
Patrick
Even the Magna Carta. My reason in saying that is that the West has developed this culture of egocentrism, and abandonment of God, slowly. In steps – not all at once. That is why even a device like the Magna Carta was another step in the process of having man rule, not God.
None of this, of course, requires a theocracy. In fact, at least in Christianity, you CAN'T have a theocracy (man cannot serve two masters at once). The Magna Carta, on the other hand, was simply another manifestation of the increasing role of the human ego in society.
I would probably recommend both Lindbom's "The Myth of Democracy" and Blessed Seraphim Rose's "Nihilism: Root of Revolution and the Modern Age" (which you can find online for free) for a better explanation of my positions (and, truly, the source if I am to be honest). The latter probably best reflects my feelings (though I know they will remain in the realm of fantasy) regarding what we *should* do.
I think, in addition, that, for history, "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg and "The Road to Serfdom" by FA Hayek are also wonderful books. But all, in regard to my outlook, should be filtered through Blessed Seraphim Rose's work.
the sinner,
Patrick
PS – I'm not trying to dodge your question, which is fair and very relevant. I just worry that someone may think this is my own "wisdom," which it most certainly is not. I am not so intelligent, but any stretch. These ideas, and the very words, come from much wiser men than myself and, I think, to give you a better idea I really should direct you to them. I thank you for your patience.
I remember watching a movie with Sean Connery that was set in the Amazon– I think it was called "The Medicine Man." All I really recall was that they had found the cure for cancer– in the Amazon– and it was in danger of being destroyed because the forest was being destroyed. Why isn't that a cause du jour anymore? It can't be because it wasn't true– can it?
couldn't get through it – I never "cared" about the characters.
Hey there, West Texas – Me too!!
Where's Sting with his traveling side-show of Amazonian natives to remind us of our duty to the rain forests? Oh, for the simple, halcyon days of enviro-nuttiness that was the '80's. No need for complex, unworkable "equations" purporting to "prove" something (all the while performing less accurately with historical data than a random number generator). Though, the scare-tactics seem to be the same.
Besides, it is much easier to control human behavior in a totalitarian manner when the behavior that "needs" controlling effects the environment no matter where you are. The rain forests were just to remote to allow its defenders to directly control our actions here.
the sinner,
Patrick
You were wrong both times.
No one said BB was the good guy. Yet somehow celebrating life and pointing out murderous belief systems is akin to government propaganda? Do you deny the points laid out in the article?
And it it quite obvious Picard is using the phrase deathworship as method of describing to the eugenics and murder of millions. If you had any intelectual honesty you would acknowledge it as true.
In 1984 the nation of Eastasia is described as "Death Worshiping." I would expand that definition to many other nations and cultures.
The actual slaughter of "Undesirables" (political, cultural, racial, religious, etc) is gut wrenching. In the Fascistic and communistic regimes they engaged in widespread death, to limit the number of undesirable births.
In our more evolved societies we have elevated death worship to a new level. We prevent birth. We don't kill off our undesirables, but we do encourage (or in the case of Planned Parenthood et al. strongly encourage {sometimes force}) them not to reproduce.
Is that really so different?
We need to start celebrating Life, or we will never survive ourselves.
Geez, you really missed the point of the entire aricle, mammooth. You had the broad side of a barn in front of you and you aimed in the opposite direction! Amazing…..
Sorry, I meant "article". Where's that Big Hollywood spell check when I need it?
4 is going to be a reach, but I'll get going on that right away.
Of course, it was a severe downturn, not a collapse, and the population was still growing then. But other than those two huge things you got totally wrong, your history is perfect.
I can point to a lot of crumbled civilizations that say Malthus had a point. "People are resources" didn't save them. And they all thought they were doing pretty good, right up until they weren't. Malthus' main problem was that he thought civilizations would run up against a wall of carrying capacity and spin their wheels, which is incorrect. Even in ancient days, some civilizations could wildly overshoot carrying capacity by using up non-renewable resources to cover the deficit. Made things all that much worse when the Ponzi scheme collapsed. Ignoring those examples is cherry-picking history every bit as much as ignoring innovation would be.
I do think I understand some of the reaction I got for merely saying "restrict immigration to slowly decrease the population". Obviously, an ultra-liberal socialist La Raza activist mastermind is behind it, pushing their open-immigration Reconquista agenda under the guise of conservatism. Saul Alinsky is probably involved somehow too. After all, genuine conservatives would be happy to have liberals joining them in a cause which is dear to conservatives.
The Reformation was a manifestation of Western egocentrism, nothing less. It, of course, had its roots deeply implanted in the general rise of the worship of the human intellect in the West and, ironically, in the Latin theologians going back to the 9th century, or so. All the Reformation did was extend the mistakes of the Latin church (papal infallibility) to each individual. At least, that was the practical result.
The Western concepts of the individual, too, are products of Western egocentrism and the abandonment of God. Christianity ALWAYS believed in "direct access to God." The problem was that the epistemological dualism introduced by Latin theologians, which led to the inevitable ontological dualism seen in all of Protestantism (to one degree or another) – and which was present in the practical manifestations of the Latin church – combined with the political/historical situation of the West to, unfortunately, lead the Latin church down the road of "gatekeepers" to God. The Faith, itself, never went that direction.
However, when the Latin church, exercising so much control over the lives in the West (due to the political chaos and the lack of an additional patriarchal see anywhere near it, in my opinion), began to operate in such a mechanistic, humanistic, and thoroughly Western rationalistic manner, it was only natural that the same methodological approach to the Faith employed by the bishop of Rome would be adopted by others.
This has led to spiritual anarchy, not "freedom." This thought process also infected the realm of Western politics, despite the epistemological and ontological dualism of the West, giving us our current culture founding in, and on, egocentrism.
This is not freedom – it is egocentrism, the very kind championed by Ayn Rand, and that is nothing more than the other side of the Marxist coin.
the sinner,
Patrick
personally I would take Sun Tzu's approach and pit my enemy's enemy against my enemy and allow them to destroy themselves on their own. But then I am a devious bastard.
The elitists control the world. They dictate everyone's rights while keeping those same rights for themselves. I watched a new film called Maafa21 which confirms this. go to -http://www.maafa21.com and see why. Stop the madness.
[...] to G & G: John Nolte on The Extinction of the Movie Star Charles Winecoff, Big Hollywood: A-holes and Insects – or Mother Nature Doesn’t Care If You’re a Good Liberal Sweetness & Light: Sotomayor Began Race-Baiting At 19 GayPatriot: “The meanest people in [...]
no more! you're making my knuckledragger brain hurt!
I knew a woman who had been born into wealth, grew up in wealth, inherited a lot of money early which was then increased by her husband. They lived the privileged life of a wealth with a private plane, homes in three states so they could follow the good weather. Then she got breast cancer, and while she had chemotherapy, she couldn't be bothered to stay in one place, so had her treatments at wherever she happened to be living (summer – mountains, spring and fall – inland, winter – FL beach). She knew breast cancer wasn't anything to monkey around with, but because nothing bad had ever happened to her, she didn't think anything bad ever could. In a way, she represents Americans today. The generation who understood hardship and fear is pretty much gone. The rest of us have grown up knowing only prosperity and security. (African Americans had a difficult time, however, though this is not an excuse, I doubt many of them would trade life in 20th century America with life in 20th century Africa — discrimination and all). There's a reason for the adage "history repeats itself". The woman mentioned above died a painful death.
horrified or not, this kind of thing will happen when one does not fully think things out all the way through, and take into account the myriad of paths that "revolutionary" ideas can take. She opened Pandora's box big time.
well done! the sooner begun, the sooner done.
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I always found it interesting that when it fell under the purview of the environmentally aware, Jungles became "rain forests" (as if it never rains in norther forests) while marshes and swamps became "wetlands".
[...] Other illuminating reading: Gateway Pundit: British Sensation Daniel Hannan: “It’s Common Sense When You Are in Debt You Spend Less – Anyone But a Politician Can See That” The American Spectator: Quebec Has Helicopters for Pepe Le Pew But Not Emergency Patients and Obama’s False Choice Hennessy’s View: America’s Survival Is In Your Hands Jim Blazsik: The Tea Party is Here: Mr. President – We didn’t ask for socialism! Is Obama Designing the End of Capitalism? Luke Johnson, UK Financial Times: A tragedy for champions of free markets BBC News: Mother killed after care failures Charles Winecoff, Big Hollywood: A-holes and Insects – or Mother Nature Doesn’t Care If You’re a Good Liberal [...]
good points, all…
While we agree with the advent of egocentrism came agnosticism, the Latin church found itself at crossroads- with the Reformation came modernity and with it the requisite realities of modern governance. Unfortunately, the net result was turning away from God, and that is precisely why the two fastest growing religions today are Islam- and Mormonism.
Both conversion religions…
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Or have read his first book. I also reccomend 'Caliphate' by Tom Kratman.
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Heh…been doing that meself
I've said for a long time that anyone who thinks there are to FEW people on this planet has the advantage of not having to live near many of them – or, at the very least, evidently doesn't commute to work.
I think it was Thomas Malthus who maintained that the food production will keep populations in check. Then in the 20th century with tremendous advances in agriculture his ideas were repudiated.
Is he repudiated or simply ahead of his time?
In what way is this a head-scratcher? What does my self-confession as a sinner have to do with the substance of my post? Please explain.
the sinner,
Patrick
Hehe! Too true.
the sinner,
Patrick
I thank you but, again, I must confess that these are the words (poorly re-worked) of much greater men than me. I understand your point regarding the Magna Carta, but, from my perspective, the problem is that by the time the Magna Carta was written, what was called Christianity in the West had already traveled far, far down the line of cultural egocentrism. Even though the explosion of cultural egocentrism unleashed by the Reformation had not yet happened, so much damage had been done regarding the epistemological methodology of scholars and, most importantly at that time, clergy that the resultant document, the Magna Carta had no choice but to be a product of that egocentrism.
Again, this was simply an earlier step in the removal of God from the central role in culture (both common and political) and the usurpation of that role by man. It is not as blatantly a humanistic document as, say, the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, but it is within the continuum. At that time (the early 13th century), the process of what I consider the deterioration of Christianity in the West just hadn't progressed as far as it had 5 centuries later.
As far as the reading list is concerned: "The Myth of Democracy" and "Nihilism" are both very short, and can probably be read within one day, each. Although, I would, respectfully, recommend more than one reading. Especially regarding Blessed Father Seraphim Rose. There is SO much information packed into that little work, and the fact that it was to be only one chapter in a much, much longer work, means there is a lot of peripheral study that needs to be done to understand where he's coming from.
the sinner,
Patrick
Concentration does not overpopulation make. Although, maybe it isn't that there are too many people, just too many people in hybrids (choking from the LA smug as I write).
the sinner,
Patrick
I have always been amazed at the secular canonization of Margaret Sanger when she was just a few clicks away from being Josef Mengele. She represented the dark underbelly of progressivism, a disdain and even hatred for those that were the objects of their "compassion." Our generation has had the population control fanaticism of guys like Dr. Paul Ehrlich, author of "The Population Bomb" in 1968 which must rank as the most thoroughly discredited academic work of all time. In the final chapter of that book Professor Ehrlich argues that sterilzing agents shouold be covertly introduced into water sources and food supplies to bring family size down to "acceptable" levels. Yet Ehrlich and his compatriots continue to enjoy acclaim, respect and academic honors.
As for Mr. Winecoff's article, I can only say "Bravo." As I am sure Mr. Winecoff will recognize Mark Steyn has been making these arguments for a long time and has rolled out the demographic data to back it up.
Dang, offhand I do not recall seeing that one before. Did you buy the books?
To those opposing gay marriage on religious grounds, your argument seems to summarize as "Bend over and we can be friends."
Charles,
You continue to enlighten me with your posts. Your insight and wisdom are stimulating.
Another genius article Mr. Winecoff. Please keep them coming.
You want reality? Here's the reality: Malthus' theories were inherently wrong. He assumed that man was like other species of animals on earth in that all we do is consume resources and then procreate.
Mankind has something that no species of animal that exists or will ever exist has, and that is the ability to think & create solutions to our problems. We can selectively breed crops, we can genetically engineer new plants that grow quicker are more resistant to bacteria and pests, and then end up being three times as large in order to make our food supply larger to feed growing populations. When faced with things like floods rather then just sit and mill out around like sheep (except in the welfare state obviously) or other animals, we come up with solutions. We evacuate, we flee, we build sand-bag walls to keep the waters from destroying our towns.
Practice makes perfect. Don't hurt yourself trying too hard. I know, its a tough job, but someones gotta do it. Time to turn the tables on the statists. Find someone special. Put all your assets into an S corp or LLC with trustworthy people as owners. Quit your job, and put in for all the social programs you can. Hey, if they're going to bankrupt us anyway, you might as well use the money to help our side. Good luck
You need to pay attention more. Cheney has been saying the same thing for years. Here's one example;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/581720/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5817720/
I'm not surprised you're clueless regarding Cheney's previous statements. The same sheer ignorance was repeated at HuffPo recently. Over and over I read how convenient it was for Cheney to say something now and had never said anything while VP.
It's always amusing when people ignorantly reveal how ignorant they are.
we have always referred to liberalism as 'the luxury of thought'…
Sanger and other academics, ignorant of anything outside their own narrow field of expertise make sweeping generalizations about the Fate of Man- and being committed atheists not believing in God's plan- speak casually about population 'control'. Like the off-mentioned 'sustainable' population of 21/2 billion- what about the fate of the remaining 31/2 billion? Just wish them away?
Or something much more onerous? Mr Winecoff's points about the gay community are spot on; oddly enough gays flourish in a conservative Christian atmosphere (tolerance, perhaps?) than they do in statist societies where they are oppressed- even hunted down and killed (Iran). We recall Hitler, Stalin and Mao not taking kindly to gays or, for that matter folk of any different stripe.
Yet under Mr Bush and his economic freedoms gays,being unencumbered by family obligations for the most part- the ultimate DINK's- have gained economic clout far beyond their numbers.
One should remember this carefully…
When you have to say "if you had any intellectual honesty you would agree with me," it simply proves to the world that you are incapable of making your own point.
And while it may be "quite obvious" how Picard is using the phrase "deathworship," I think it's worth pointing it out that the characters who are credited with coining it have made it up out of whole cloth to smear an entire continent and allow a permanent state of war to keep their own populace in check. So, yes, Picard falls for the same old swill that right-wingers have used for years to keep their own people in check — fear of the other.
Well, you've convinced me. I'll start popping out babies just as soon as I find a suitable father for them. Um….. Talk about undesirable consequences of "progress" and modernity. I mean, I'm glad it's not cool for men to beat up women anymore, but hipster wussies don't exactly make for good procreation partners. Le sigh.
You say Christians hold this one value the other side does not like, give up that value and then they might see the worth of the remaining ones. Why should they respect Christians who are willing to surrender sacred principles just to entice possible friends? Might as well be talking about the girl who "puts out" trying to be more popular.
For some Christians it is not debatable, period. Some have no problem with it. That leaves a lot of Christians who are open to persuasion. Saying "give it up or we will hate you" is not persuasion.
It also does not help the discussion to call Christianity "…the main instigator of social unacceptance." One, that is too broad a brush that merely shows you have already dismissed the entirety of Christianity without bothering to notice those who are sympathetic. Two, last I checked Christians, except a few Reverend Phelps types, were at least tolerating gays with some denominations openly accepting them. Did you happen to miss how the Muslims were jailing, torturing, and killing gays? Worldwide, who is the real main instigator of social un-acceptance? Before making such claims you should do a reality check as to who the real enemies are, and who are either friends or at least allies of convenience in the fights that really matter.
Wow! You have some very scary thoughts rolling around your head……Just some friendly advice, you might want to keep those thoughts to yourself. …………….Again Wow!
Now that's funny……
if for nothing else than the eloquence of your post(s) you deserve special mention…
As we asserted earlier, the Magna Carta was a result of the Christian constructs of business, community and law. The Templar Knights established the modern form of business, and the Carta the modern form of governance. To remove the Christian ideals from them is to render them meaningless because of the concepts of honour and trust. Our modern society has abandoned these principles and we are suffering the end result.
Your suggested reading list is excellent as well. Good post…
The thing with both Mormonism and Islam is that they offer the steadfast belief that truth is Truth – it doesn't change. Now, I have my issues with such stances being taken by either group, but that is a topic for another thread. The premise of each group is that Truth doesn't change.
From the Christian perspective, Truth is Truth and does not change. In fact, this very notion is "written on our hearts" (Romans). Some even call it the conscience. That is, we all have an innate concept of the very existence of Truth and of right and wrong. That such "knowledge" has manifested itself differently throughout history does not negate the belief in absolutes, nor does it render Truth relative. In fact, it points to that which both the NT and the Fathers talk about often: Truth is Truth, no matter who expresses it.
Thus, for a Christian, that Muslims believe in a God is a belief in a Truth. The Greek philosophers pre-dating Christ spoke of many things that were Truths. They may have lacked the fullness of the Faith – and thus lacked all of the Truth. But Truth being Truth, eternally and unchangingly, they were still Truths.
Our culture, in abandoning God slowly over time and, just as importantly, replacing God with man, began to abandon that very concept.
Modernity does not require an abandonment of God. Material progress does not require an abandonment of God. However, the elevation of the human intellect, the manifestation of egocentrism, does. The glorification of the human ego and the placement of "man" as an entity at the top of the "reality pyramid," both in cultural and political terms, requires the abandonment of God.
What we in the West see as "freedom," the worship of complete and utter autonomy of the individual – both existentially and politically – requires the abandonment of God. Fundamentally, what the West holds as "sacred" is not what Christianity understands as sacred, nor is the functional subservience of the Faith to human "wisdom."
In the West, the Faith has been relegated to "your personal beliefs" that "should be private." This, of course, is nonsense. No one does that, especially not in politics – that you take a particular view of how the government functions is based on personal beliefs, let alone various policy decisions. We, however, have been experiencing this epistemological and ontological dualism that requires an abandonment of God (a "compartmentalization of faith" is, in reality, an abandonment of God. To relegate God to the closet of public life, to push the Faith out of the light for the sake of "keeping your beliefs separate" from "the real world" is to refuse to to acknowledge God before man).
But, that is the West, and has been for centuries. The founding fathers of our own nation, though more Christian than our society today, in general, were very much infected with so-called "rationalism." Letters from Abigail Adams to John Adams even talked about preferring to listen to a "logical" or "rational" discussion than a sermon.
Ok, so this message was written over an hour and a half as I've been talking care of my 4 week old son. Sorry if it's a little incoherent!
the sinner,
Patrick
And all too true.
the sinner,
Patrick
don't feel too bad-
We are trying to have a meaningful philosophical conversation with our self-confessed 'sinner' and end up in moderation with a real head scratcher…
The "you think you have it bad, look at the Arab world" argument:
Is this the same argument one would use against American women when they were trying to get the right to vote?
"What? YOU want to vote? Well, look at the women over in the Middle-East. When they cheat on their husbands, they get stoned to death! YOU'RE living the four-star treatment. Now, shut up and go cook your husband dinner."
So… what exactly was my neo-marxist high school history teacher saying when he said government should be amoral? Oh dear…
Agree.
Impressive job of serpentine writing!
The Greeks would say that the ancient philosophers were speaking truths, but not in the fulness of Truth. Truth is Truth, and is not subject to human control or determination. The Fathers, themselves, recognize the Truths spoken by the philosophers. However, they were mere shadows of the Truth in its fullness, as revealed in Christ.
So, Christianity didn't have so much a Greek foundation as it was founded in Truth, some of which was echoed in the ancient philosophers (as Truth existed before the beginning of time. Christ, co-eternal with God, is the Way, the Truth and the Life. His position as such is NOT dependent on the Incarnation).
the sinner,
Patrick
Ok, seeing what I missed in tying it up: in offering the concept of absolute, unchanging Truths, both Mormonism and Islam are among those faiths that reject relativism and appeal to what Christianity would say is the law written on our hearts (again, see Romans).
the sinner,
Patrick
"Too many" is a loaded concept, but I don't know how it can be convincingly argued that life on the whole wouldn't get exponentially better around the world if there weren't FEWER people overall.
The fact is, the world just keeps getting more mechanized, which means the "bottom line" number of people NEEDED for mutual-survival keeps getting lower. This means more and more people living devoid of purpose and thus devoid of means to survive legitimately – hence gang crime, poverty, terrorism, you name it. This HAS happened before from time to time as civilizations make big leaps forward in industrialization, and typically natural cycles (or God, if you like) take care of it in rather unpleasant ways: Viral plague outbreaks among the poorest of the poor, or perhaps a violent civil-conflict. If possible, thats a "fix" I'd like to avoid needing, wouldn't you?
(continued)
(continued)
The best way I can think of to do so is the way American culture has been taking for awhile now: Contraception for everyone who wants it, abortion when circumstances demand it and a culture (popular and otherwise) that values the QUALITY of the family (or the individual, really) instead of the size. The difficult "transitional" part, of course, is dealing with the innevitable clashes with less-advanced societies (see: "the Muslim World") who aren't at that point yet.
I worked closely with cancer and AIDS patients in Austin for six years in the 90's and totally concur with your observations about people compromising or balancing their chances of survival v. living their lives. If we had you, you were damn sick, but at home, hence "homecare i.v. program. But still I would be tasked with shipping sensative meds to Marth's Vineyard or where ever to very ill people. Generally not a good thing. If they were terminal though it seemed the right thing to do with proper clearence from thier doctors so I did my best to keep them supplied where ever they traveled, it might be (and usually was) their last time to travel. If the patient ISN'T terminal I think it's looney to compromise your health even more by non or shakey compliance. We the U.S.A. AREN'T terminal, no matter what Obama/Biden/Reid/Pelosi says.
That's your starting assumption and belief, not mine. And neither proposition can be proven, and no one was there at the beginning either way. Will forever remain an object of faith.
the sinner,
Patrick
How 'bout just keeping your legs closed/pants zipped. But, of course, sex is "a natural urge! Cannot suppress it!" and all that nonsense. Whatever we do, we can't stop ourselves from engaging in destructive, selfish behavior! That, of course, is the starting assumption of such a position (as is the ignorant idea that the Muslim world is "less advanced" for the reasons you appear to be assuming).
The idea of self-control, of not worshipping material well-being and self-gratification . . . no, that is impinging on the freedom of others.
Gang crime, all crime, is still a choice – poverty or no. Throughout the millennia there have been entire populations racked with poverty that have felt no need to resort to mass criminality, or even the level we see now. In fact, many of these criminals experience poverty that is wealth in other societies. The criminality is not from the poverty, but greed, avarice, arrogance, selfishness . . . etc. Not the fact that they may not be in the middle class.
And having less people is NOT necessarily a guarantee that things would get "better." What everyone that was left was a totalitarian jerk? How would that be for a quality of life? Fewer people, more slaves? The idea that simply reducing the population makes everything better is a non-sequitur.
the sinner,
Patrick
test
pray
assassin
test
Prayers for the Assassin
test mecca
test
Read "No Prayers for the Assassin" by Ferrigno. Not a great writer, but the futuristic is set in 2020+ America where the country has split into "Islamic Republic of America" and the South (Bible Belt) with a few neutral areas (NV is a sin zone and I couldn't figure out California). In the book, DC, NY and a few other cities have been nuked, there is plague in a few others. The Jews were blamed for nuking DC, NY etc. The president was elected as a Christian but converted to Islam in the middle of his term; a few celebrities (movie stars and basketball players) likewise converted, the country was a mess, the "sheeple" followed the celebrities and the president, the South revolted, and that was the situation. The plot was a thriller with a moderate Muslim good guy trying to save his lady love from being killed. Good read basically for the creepiness of what happened to America. It wouldn't have worked if it didn't seem possible. And, by the way, I read the book before Barack Obama's name was even known to anyone outside of IL.
Ran some tests with your original post. The only thing that triggered the filter was "Jews" and otherwise it was fine. I posted it (like here) with the "e" in italics, went through no problem.
Language note, you are talking about a group getting a right, which is implying the discussion of gay marriage is about getting a right, which it is not. That has been hacked to death here before. All gays already have the same right as everyone else, to marry someone of the opposite sex. The definition of marriage is not a federal issue, it is a state issue, leave the US Supreme Court out of it. The voters decided on Prop 8 and this is a democratic country, end of story. They already can get what they want with civil unions, except for "the word." Government should not be involved in marriage anyway. Etc, etc.
Oh, there was another flaw in your post. Did you notice that 70% of the blacks voted for Prop 8? It would be dead safe to say those are not "right wing" voters. By characterizing it as a right vs left argument you are missing a fundamental point that this is not confined to traditional political lines.
The Muslim thing is related to a longstanding observation on this site. Liberals push for gay rights and gay marriage, while doing nothing to stop the slaughter of gays in Iran, as well as their mistreatment in other Muslim countries. Gays push for gay rights and gay marriage, while doing nothing to stop the slaughter of gays in Iran, as well as their mistreatment in other Muslim countries. Both groups attack Christians, who are opposed to the slaughter of gays in Iran, as well as their mistreatment in other Muslim countries. So really, both groups would rather let gays be killed and brutalized in Muslim countries for the sake of "the word" than ally with "their opponent" to stop it.
Which is really just a disgusting display of selfishness.
So I take it you did not catch the coverage of the "gay outrage" over Prop 8? "Give it up or we will hate you" is really the only reply they had.
Fair enough. I agree with everything you said here. Depopulation is a big deal in the Western world. The problem is many in the West have bought into the Malthus/Ehrlich mindset and can't let it go.
The whole list is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlock_Mercenary#Th...
(One should also borrow a concept from the Pirates of the Caribbean and consider these "rules" to be… er, guidelines.)
The whole list is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlock_Mercenary#Th...
(One should also borrow a concept from the Pirates of the Caribbean and consider these "rules" to be… er, guidelines.)
The whole list is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlock_Mercenary#Th...
(One should also borrow a concept from the Pirates of the Caribbean and consider these "rules" to be… er, guidelines.)
I will try to lay out the framework, maybe that will help.
Patrick mentions the Blessed Seraphim Rose who is Orthodox Church. They believe they are The One True Church going from the original Christians. They anoint with oil, and for every new batch part of an old batch is added, in theory they may be a few molecules left over from the first batch over 2000 years ago. Rose was a proponent of the belief in toll houses on the way to Heaven where you must "pay" for un-repented sins with good deeds. Since there is an accounting of every sin of thought and deed, well, it sure looks like it would be hard for anyone to make it through.
He mentions "the Latin church" which is the Catholic Church, who believe they are the One True Church. Since "Pope" used to be a political appointment and the Church used to function as a political force well beyond what a "religious organization" should do, a very strong case could be made they were power-hungry and egotistical. They have long held themselves as the Gatekeeper to Heaven, no one gets in without their blessing. They used to do great business selling salvation for deeds and/or money.
The Reformation, and as full disclosure I am Lutheran so I am most familiar with Martin Luther's contribution, took any church out of the way as a roadblock to salvation and relegated them as advisors. Your salvation is between you and God. The most important requirement is accepting Jesus already paid for your sins, which are really impossible to keep track of since you may not be aware you have committed them. (Ever want someone else's car? Had carnal thoughts about a model you did not know was married? That counts.) You admit that yes, you are a screw-up (sinner) and you are sorry for whatever you did wrong, and you are in. Patrick finds that to be "ego-centric" since it raises the importance of man to being in direct contact with God, no middleman. Note that some Protestant denominations have done their own power plays with setting themselves up as gatekeepers, the English Church and the Mormons for example.
The rest of the argument is basically the further we get from strict authoritarian rule, towards what we call freedom, the further we get away from God. Of course back in the Really Old Days you had the absolute rule of monarchs who needed the approval of the One True Church (whichever one depending on location) so the Church (read God) controlled everything. More freedom = less God.
The countering view of many is the freedom to make your own choices contains the freedom to make bad choices, in religion and other matters. So people can choose the wrong things and even drag well-meaning folks along with them, which is basically what we argue about on this site. But by (most of) the beliefs after the Reformation that can be corrected quickly so it is not much of an issue for a person.
It is all just part of believing people can be adult enough to make their own decisions. If you do not like those decisions, you inform and discuss in the hope they will learn what the right ones are. You do not insist that returning to treating virtually everyone as children is the answer. Lord knows we are spending enough effort to keep that out of this country.
Truly amazing. I knew about all the 'loose ends', but like a good Seinfeld episode, you brought them all together to show the whole picture. And what a picture it is.
Arghhh! I should have known Wikipedia would have it!
it was the 'site administrator' slap down on a reply that was posted later- not you, my friend…
we will read Father Rose' work…
At some point in time the secular world of Caesar was destined to part company from God's plan- it was as much pre-ordained. Ultimately, the lessons of losing our collective way is being fully realized at which point the return to faith can come.
Make sense?
we couldn't agree more- but to certain extent one must have their faith challenged- as we are now- to realize the depth of our beliefs.
All is not lost, there is a re-birth happening thanks to the atheistic forces in charge. We are seekers of the Truth. Our search will last until our last breath…
agreed. That's what we said, just helping the chap out a bit. Apostle Paul was familiar with Aristotle, the rest is, as they say, history…
In a sense, yes. As an astrophysicist I was so compelled by the similarities between modern science (esp. cosmology) and biblical wisdom that I became a believer.
Gen 1:3: And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
That is a perfect description of the Big Bang, which brought forth an exquisitely hot universe filled only with light.
If you're curious about the convergence between science and biblical wisdom, I encourage you to read the works of physicist and theologian Gerald Schroeder. This is a good place to start:
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/existence.aspx
vatz, no offense, but several short comments, one after the other, looks a bit kooky. You might consider condensing your comments into larger posts.
I didn't read through the comment thread until just now. You guys are pretty thorough!
Anyway, I'm still a bit shocked that someone would be unaware of the importance of Greek Christianity to Western civilization. I blame public education. In one of these blog debates I actually encountered someone who didn't understand why I was trashing the French Revolution. This is what we get for trading history class for social studies.
another truly excellent reply…
We are not theologians- jus quasi-talented amatuers. Didn't know the connection between Rose and the Orthodox church- no doubt we would have found that out. Our take is trying to build a consensus between the differing orthodoxies as far as to where we've come from-
And where were going…
we too, have been struck by the confluence of cutting edge science- cosmology for certain, but bio-research as well- and religion.
It just re-affirmed our 'faltering' faith…
Will read Mr Schroeder's postings. Thanks…
actually deathworship was coined by Orwell.
And while it was used as a propaganda term in his book, I did not use it to refer to a continent or to perpetuate fear. I used it as a descriptor for certain practices. Feel free to miss the point, but the slaughter of innocents suppoedly bothers liberals. We are the ones who are accused of being callous.
The Greeks most certainly did have a Christian foundation, but obviously not until after the death of Christ. The influence went both ways. The Greeks more or less developed philosophy and reason, but they hungered for something more intellectually fulfilling than the panoply of Greek gods. This led to the wholehearted embrace of Christianity, and as a result their philosophy came to influence Christianity and vice versa. It was a mutually beneficial relationship. Lest you doubt the historical importance of Greek Christianity, note that scholarly theological work includes study of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament.
Added to clarify: I did not claim that all of Greek culture has a Christian foundation, which is obviously untrue. My original statement was that the Christian foundation of Western civilization starts with the Greeks.
Part I
Unfortunately, you have made several incorrect statements, sir. First, the toll houses were NOT places where one "pays" for unrepentant sins. This is a complete misstatement of the toll house theory. In addition, it is NOT a dogma of the Orthodox Church. For an accurate understanding of the toll houses, I'd recommend the section dealing with them in Protopresbyter Pomazansky's "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" (free to download here: http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/d...
Second, the Orthodox Church does, it is true, believe it is the one, Catholic Apostolic Church. However, as I have repeatedly stated, Truth is Truth. The Orthodox simply believe that the Fullness of the Truth is only kept in Orthodoxy. I would recommend reading Patrick Barnes' "The Non-Orthodox: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside of the Church" (which you can download for free here: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/status.aspx...
Third, your simplistic and Western version, influenced as it is from ontological dualism, regarding oil and chrism, is completely off the mark. It also ignores the physical significance of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (see the use of aprons and napkins in, if I remember correctly, Acts 19). I would also recommend Protopresbyter Pomozansky's work, linked above, for further discussion. This simply supports the various points I've made regarding Western novelties regarding the Faith and its view of the physical reality of Christ's presence in the world, both through the Incarnation and after His Resurrection.
These first three issues are theological, and are probably best discussed in other areas. It appears, sir, that you have simply cited gross mischaracterizations of various individuals and the Orthodox Church, in general, appealing to various "everyone knows" concepts of Western views of individualism, in order to not address the points someone like Blessed Seraphim Rose made in "Nihilism" (which you fail to address completely) in order to dismiss the points without addressing them.
Your further points regarding the role of the Church in the state are also characteristically Western. I did fail to appropriately address the mistakes the Latin church made in this post, though in another I directly addressed it.
The novelties introduced in the Latin church (specifically, the Aristotelean scholasticism in its theology) directly led to the influence of humanism in its operation. The church in Rome (I believe also because it was the only patriarchal see in the West and due to the political chaos unique in the West) began act as a dictatorial power. It was, after all, the only source of stability in the West for many years. Through the epistemological and ontological dualism that began to predominate in the West, the clergy of the church in Rome began to act as "gatekeepers" to salvation.
This was NEVER an issue in Orthodoxy. Nor did the Church ever act as a political determination, of sorts, as the church in Rome did in the West. Of course, I wouldn't expect most people here to know much about Byzantine history. The interaction of Church and state in the East is very different when compared to that in the West (though much of the "knowledge" of how the church in Rome interacted with the various states and governments in the West is "common knowledge" that is inaccurate, as well).
Thus, kadaka's criticisms hold up (somewhat) well for the West, but NOT the East. His characterizations of Luther, and the effect of what he began, are also a bit skewed.
I would say that Luther simply repeated the bishop of Rome's mistakes – in effect, Luther made himself a pope and, by example, spread that mistake to every individual. This was a conflagration of humanistic ideas and the slow falling from the fullness of the Faith that had been going on in the West for some time. Simply looking at Luther's writings, much like Calvin's and Zwingli's, we find that he had no problem appealing to Holy Tradition – but only the parts that agreed with his pre-conceived notions of what the Faith was supposed to be. He created, out of whole cloth, sola fide and sola scriptura – both novelties in and of themselves. He ignored any aspect of Church history, and belief, he though didn't comport with what he thought the Faith should be. Whether or not he did this out of a malicious intent to control the faith or out of an honest, though mistaken, attempt to "correct" the faith (a concept which requires Christ to be a liar and the Holy Spirit a failure) is not my call to make. I personally *believe* that he was well-intentioned, just so cut off from the Fullness of the Faith over so many centuries that he had no frame of reference other than the bishop of Rome's own egocentrism and capriciousness in "determining" dogmas.
Part II
So, the idea that Luther "cut out the middle man" in some meaningful way is not true. The Faith always held that man had "direct access to God." However, there was also the idea of the Body of Christ – the Church. Each person has a role in that Body and, as the NT tells us, no one person is greater than another. the clergy have a role, but are not "gatekeepers." They have *obligations* and, in the end, are responsible to God for their parishioners. This is a far cry from how the church in Rome was operating at the time of the Reformation.
What the Reformation did, Luther included, was to subject God to man. The Faith was now open for "reinterpretation" based each individual.
THIS is the egocentrism I'm talking about. In the area of Truth, Truth (Christ) is now subject to change and reinterpretation based on each individual's choice and pre-conceived beliefs.
Simply put, the egocentrism that I decry is not a denial of anyone making their own decisions – not even monarchies did that. Only humanistic totalitarian systems (all modernly derived from Marxism and which include both fascism and socialism) try to do that. These are systems that, at the very beginning and at their very base, deny God and moral absolutes. They are children of French materialist economists, and see all beliefs and actions derived from economic factors.
People being able to make their own decisions is one thing – but the Western concept is that unless you are doing whatever you want, you are not free. Our language mirrors this: "you don't think for yourself!" is one of the greatest insults we can throw at someone.
kadaka, that is what you are appealing to. I reject this notion out of hand. Your notions that the power to make choices is somehow more sacred in the West is completely untrue. The very presence of laws that limit our choices shows that, even now, we distinctly reject the notion of absolute freedom in individual choice.
The problem, as I see it, is that the way we manifest this so-called freedom is a matter of materialism, which is how you and the West, in general, measures this "freedom."
Ok, enough, I've rambled enough. I do ask forgiveness for not laying out my position clearly enough in this post, but on the next page I think I go into more detail more clearly (which isn't saying much) regarding my positions on this.
However, I would request that you address the points and not rely on "so and so believes X, isn't that ridiculous? Don't believe what he has to say!" And, of course, please be a little more careful in relaying what Orthodoxy believes.
the sinner,
Patrick
mr winecoff – you are brilliant. Thank you so much for your contributions to BH.
[...] us everything from math and history to a dash of entomology (study of insects), didn’t click for more var _wh = ((document.location.protocol==’https:’) ? “https://sec1.woopra.com” : [...]
"How 'bout just keeping your legs closed/pants zipped."
Why, when our well-earned technological and medical advancements have made doing almost entirely unnecessary for responsible adults? If and when we develop a fix for obesity, heart-disease and diabetes that's as effective as our myriad fixes for unwanted pregnancy, will you ask that I continue to refuse carbs ANYWAY out of… what? Some masochistic self-denial ritual?
"(as is the ignorant idea that the Muslim world is "less advanced" for the reasons you appear to be assuming)."
The "Muslim World" includes among it's geography a larger number of areas most would describe as "third world" or "pre-modern" than does the Western World, making it overall less technologically and industrially advanced. This is a fact. In the broader sense, being unable to recall my last attendance at a public stoning or forced female-circumcision, I judge the CULTURE of the Muslim World less-advanced than ours as well.
(continued)
Good sir,
The issue is that you don't completely understand the Orthodox perspective (as neither to do I. I'd recommend Metropolitan Hierotheos' "The Mind of the Orthodox Church" to explain the difference between the lived faith and the learned faith). However, your understanding (I have no doubt due to your sources) of the toll booths isn't right. That was why I linked to Pomakansky's work. The NT tells us that we are not saved by faith alone – the only time the words "faith" and "alone" appear together in the NT is when the NT tells us that we are not saved by faith alone.
Faith and works work together – it is symbiotic. We MUST manifest our faith, or it is dead (as the NT tells us). Our works are worthless without the faith, but the faith, unless manifested in works, is dead. The faith becomes mere words – or an emotional/mental stance we take on any number of theological perspectives. This, of course, is tied into the concept that spiritual and physical realities are NOT divided, as they are in the West (as evidenced by the denial of the physical realities of the Eucharist, as depicted in 1 Corinthians, and, as previously quoted, Acts 19).
The very idea of an "old way" is what I'm trying to showcase as the mistaken notion that "later in time means more accurate." The "old way" isn't what you think. It has been characterized a certain way, a way that is wrong.
I am a later in life convert to Orthodoxy. I was raised in Protestantism and the Western mentality (you should see my tattoos). The issue I have is that I have learned, and continue to learn, my arrogance and mistakes regarding my approach to the Faith. Ironically, my father raised me on the idea that there are absolutes, that don't change, and yet he hates the idea of giving up the "right" to choose what about Christianity he wants to believe.
This is the West: faith becomes a salad bar – choose what you want, ignore what makes you uncomfortable or that which you don't like. My point would be that you have *an* understanding what your "duties" are. However, the Faith, if you believe Jude verse 3 (the faith delivered once for all), and the other verses of the NT that describe the one Faith unchanged, means that there is one way to understand the Faith, to interpret Scripture. This is a concept that says Truth does not change, it must simply be protected.
That is Orthodoxy. Whatever our Western pre-conceptions and prejudices against the Latin church that obscure a proper understanding of Orthodoxy (as I experienced coming from 30 plus years as a Proddy) we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Faith. There is a lot to learn that we have been shielded from as Westerners, engrossed as we are in the ideas of "think for yourself" and "do your own thing." This only damages our ability to acknowledge that Truth does not rely on us – it exists outside of us.
But I tarry too long again. I apologize.
the sinner,
Patrick
(continued)
"The idea of self-control, of not worshipping material well-being and self-gratification . . . no, that is impinging on the freedom of others."
"Self-control," to me, is only really a virtue when it has a tangible benefit; i.e. controlling one's eating-habits in order to gain improved health. When you're doing it "just to do it," sorry… that's just self-flagellation. I fail to see much real difference between the guy pouring ice down his pants so he won't think about premarital copulation and some self-loathing Jr. College twit carving Sylvia Plath quotations into her wrist.
"And having less people is NOT necessarily a guarantee that things would get "better." What everyone that was left was a totalitarian jerk?"
In that case, I'd be glad that there's so much more ROOM in which to live apart from them
"The idea that simply reducing the population makes everything better is a non-sequitur."
Not "everything," it'd just be a fine start.
(continued)
"The idea of self-control, of not worshipping material well-being and self-gratification . . . no, that is impinging on the freedom of others."
"Self-control," to me, is only really a virtue when it has a tangible benefit; i.e. controlling one's eating-habits in order to gain improved health. When you're doing it "just to do it," sorry… that's just self-flagellation. I fail to see much real difference between the guy pouring ice down his pants so he won't think about premarital copulation and some self-loathing Jr. College twit carving Sylvia Plath quotations into her wrist.
"And having less people is NOT necessarily a guarantee that things would get "better." What everyone that was left was a totalitarian jerk?"
In that case, I'd be glad that there's so much more ROOM in which to live apart from them
Not really. Understand that the word Greek was used for Gentiles in the NT. And, culturally, Greek denominated many types of peoples. Roman was a term that even the Byzantines used for themselves, so we need to be very specific and historically versed (which is difficult in this forum) to fully expound and understand the historical developments in regard to Christianity and the Greek peoples/culture.
So, when we look at Rome, the culture, the influence of Greek culture, its role (let's be honest – Christ and the Apostles quoted the Septuagint, and the NT was written in Greek. But the dynamic is greater than that – we have to look at late Roman empire politics and dynamics.
Unfortunately, in the West, we have no understanding of the Byzantine Empire and its effect on the spread of Christianity.
Again, too long, tired, son needs feeding.
the sinner
Patrick
Now THAT'S funny.
the sinner,
Patrick
However, I would request that you address the points and not rely on "so and so believes X, isn't that ridiculous? Don't believe what he has to say!" And, of course, please be a little more careful in relaying what Orthodoxy believes.
On the contrary, I actually do have a level of respect for the Orthodox church. Way back then, my church youth group visited one. I remember being told about the oil, and the "molecules" was specifically mentioned, and it struck me that here was a direct link going back to the beginning, preserved for millenia. The other detail I remember was the inside had been so covered with icons, I think that was the word, that they recently painted over the walls to start again so there were only a few up. That one I did not mention.
Nor do I find the idea of "toll booths" ridiculous, but a remnant of an old way of thinking, requiring "good deeds" as acts of atonement, which was often promoted to (trying not to put this crudely) get free labor and goods for church projects. We should do good deeds period without expectation of any reward, for anyone in need. And Jesus has already paid for my sins, so I see no reason to have to pay again. My duties are to do my best to not sin, and certainly not willfully, to respect and serve God above all others, and to be a good person in general. Atoning for every little sin I am aware of, and doing compensatory good deeds for every little sin I have not repented and possibly never knew I committed, not in there. I accept Jesus as my savior, my bill is paid in full.
I just ordered the "Caliphate". Like Futuristics a lot. Agree that Ferigno isn't a great writer but thought the premise of "No Prayers for the Assassin" well thought out. Don't bother with the sequel. Can't even remember the name. It was awful.
test
Sola fide, by faith alone.
I have never been one to delve so deeply into the foundations of religion, I prefer to simply live by the faith that I know is true. When the Holy Spirit is within one you know what is proper to say and do, provided you listen. A rigid system of worship may be fine for, and even needed by, the many who are not inclined to develop a good ear for hearing and understanding what it is you are supposed to be doing. I am far from those who complain about "organized religion" as it does serve a great purpose, but for me personally it has taught me well and remains as a reference although I no longer require continual participation to serve God as I know I should.
test
Lutherans
test
While searching for some quotes,
Sola fide, by faith alone.
I have never been one to delve so deeply into the foundations of religion, I prefer to simply live by the faith that I know is true. When the Holy Spirit is within one you know what is proper to say and do, provided you listen. A rigid system of worship may be fine for, and even needed by, the many who are not inclined to develop a good ear for hearing and understanding what it is you are supposed to be doing. I am far from those who complain about "organized religion" as it does serve a great purpose, but for me personally it has taught me well and remains as a reference although I no longer require continual participation to serve God as I know I should.
While searching for some quotes, I came across the above article which does a great job informing about "faith alone" and its foundations, especially among Lutherans. I have long known you cannot climb into Heaven from a mountain of good deeds, belief in Jesus is required. And in the end, it is the only requirement.
I found in the article this line at the bottom, from the "Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission" where they were identifying and finding common ground between the two religions.
Lutherans and Orthodox both understand good works as the fruits and manifestations of the believer's faith and not as a means of salvation.
Good article, I recommend you read it.
Note: "cross" is one of the words the automatic filter does not like, go figure, to slip it through I have the "o" in italics, which I did above to get "across" in. And I too do not think the filtering makes sense.
Interesting. After more than 12 hours I recheck this thread and find someone ran through and took off points from anything resembling a pro-Christian comment. And 12 hours ago Planet_Hero was complaining at a breitbart.com news article that Big Hollywood was not letting him post. The article is about procreation, and he detests "breeders," and this thread is about Christianity, which gets special treatment in his distaste for religion, thus it would seem highly likely he has a few choice points he would like to say about both.
Coincidence? You be the judge…
I guess this would be my issue: this is the egocentrism I'm talking about. The faith "*I* know is true." It isn't about the Faith, it is about "*my* faith." I, me, my . . .
The point I'm trying to make is that Christianity has never believed that the faith was subject to an individual's approval or determination. In the West, however, this is *exactly* what Christianity has become. In fact, all faith becomes this kind of salad bar version of what it originally was, whatever its source.
Protestantism, in truth, is founded *entirely* upon this principle. The point is NOT that "some people need a more rigid belief system" while others, presumably more "advanced," don't need such "strictures."
The point is that the Faith is the Faith – it does not changed. The NT tells us this repeatedly. As I have stated before, it is delivered once for all to the saints (Jude 3). It is a set of Truths that never changes, as founded on Christ, who never changes, as God never changes. If the Faith is subject to individual interpretation, then it changes depending on the individual. Christ changes – for he is the Truth.
This is exactly what I'm talking about – the Faith is now subject to the individual instead of the individual being subject to the Faith. The Faith is dependent on the individual, which is a complete inversion of Christianity and renders Christianity worthless and nothing more than just another human philosophy.
As a final note, I wouldn't link to Wikipedia – not exactly the best source of information for anything outside of anything not pop-culture. There are a lot of great sources out there can be trusted much more than Wikipedia.
I would also like to link to these exchanges (excerpts, anyway) between Lutheran scholars and the Patriarch of Constantinople: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/jeremiah.aspx
Here are some other links regarding Orthodoxy and Lutheranism:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_luther.aspx
http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2006/02/there-is-n... (this was written by a former Lutheran pastor)
the sinner
Patrick
I, personally, not ascribe to Calvinist notions of pre-ordination. I'm trying to remember who I read, recently, that so perfectly discussed the difference between foreknowledge and pre-ordainment. If I can remember I'll try to find it and post it.
the sinner,
Patrick
the only way to fly.
Obviously John of Patmos talked of things to come; so did Jesus who predicted people would turn away from him and embrace false idols. That's what we're referring to…
Sorry, not one 1 state hasn outright Banned adoption many have tighten thr restrictions because of abuse, It's still bettr than abortion, at least these children have a chance.Many and various restrictions have been put in place for the "ANTI_LIFE" crowd to insure these poor adopted babies will live a life squalor and crime.The Naral crowd, et al., have made sure these situations have tied up in court for years , insuring evev more babies are dying(abortion) that could have been adopted. it takes over 3-4 years to adopt a baby to an American from an American!! It takes a little less thantwo to adopt a baby from South korea to an American. Breathtaking, indeed!!!!
Sorry to burst your bubble, Ohio, where I reside has similar restrictions , UNDER LAW. The law was challenged by a lesbian couple , went to the Supreme Court of Ohio and LOST, the custody was awarded to the father of one of the plaintiffs. I'm not into denigrating gay/lesbian people, but did you know sexual abuse of children is committed 85%= by GAY men?
Please don't refer to Christians as "dogmatic dolts", christianity has been around alot longer than the "gay movement", Jesus Christ was, and is the only being on Earth to be mentioned by EVERY CONTEMPORARY CIVILIZATION in his time, please mention 1 GAY activist" who can claim the same, and I'm not denigrating gay people, as I know there are alot of good ones.
Vatz, nobody said gay people have the onus on "abuse' of children, but please don't say it is based on"fear, ignorance and intolerance". Simply put, the VAST majority of Americans were raised with the creed of marriage is between 1man and 1woman+children and family. What's next poligamy and bestiality? Marry as many women as 1 wants to and having a "loving" relationship with an animal? C'mon, it has to stop somewhere. You can't deny that since time immemorial, marriage and raising shildren has been based upon a loving relationship between a man and a woman to create and nurture a loving family. Man + man or woman+ woman cannot create a family. Your premise of adoption for gay people is SO flawed, only MAN+WOMAN=CHILDREN+ HAPPY FAMILY. by the way, I don't hate gay people.
Vatz, the "gay movement" needs to clean up it's act up before anyone will take them seriously(NAMBLA? ANYONE). I'm not saying that you would ever consider those FREAKS to speak for you. At the same time." Iv'e lived in filth and Iv'e lived in sin, but I still smell cleaner than the sh*t you're in.
I'm not so sure you all know about M.Sanger(SARCASM), she was from Cincinnati, where I'm from, and she was soooo into eugenics, pitiful and ghastly.
Bill, if you only played 'DEVILS ADVOCATE", you could be a college prof with TENURE!!!
Wrong again, it proves(at least supposed to) that you are commiting the rest of your life to your wife and no other. How is it unconstitutional to ban adoption for unmarried couples(gay or straight)?
Have you ever heard of Greek Orthodox Christianity? The 1st bibles were written in GREEK.
The Romans aknowledged Jesus Christ as "Lux Mundi"- Light Of The World.
You're wrong, Charlemane had the Magna Carta codified to represent "God given rights", much as our Founding Fathers reflected the same "God given rights.
Jesue Christ is our direct link to God, for we are not worthy.
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