Personally, I enjoyed “Elementals”–a very well done piece of work, you should be proud of it. I agree with you that superheroes should be held to a higher standard as regards what they’re depicted doing. Thankfully, thanks to trade paperbacks and dvd collections, I can still go back and read the silver and bronze age classics whenever I want.

@ THOMAS TALIONIS

Oh, but Belgium DOES produce comic books! Haven’t you heard of Tintin? That is but one of many Franco-Belgian comics, the likes of which you can look up on Wikipedia.

I thought all the good guys died out when Dixon left DC, glad to see I’m wrong

As a comics fan, who has been kept out of the shop as I work through some economic issues, I’m really glad to read this. Now I know there’s a writer out there that I will intentionally look for when I have the funds and get back to a shop.

The issues Mr. Willingham brings up is a big reason why I avoid, by in large, superhero comics. When I was buying I kept mostly to books in the horror genre. I’d love to see Mr. Willingham take on Hellboy.

Mr. Willingham,

I recently stopped collecting comic books after more than a decade because of reasons that you just mentioned. Heroes are supposed to be heroes. They’re supposed to do the right (tough) things. They’re supposed to best evil.

Nowadays, there’s so much gray it’s as if “black” and “white” never existed. At Marvel, it seems like as if every crossover is supposed to end on a down note. DC? I think the last straw I had with both companies was a meth-head Batman battling his dad or something. I dunno.

I don’t think I’ll ever get back into collecting full-time. However, if there’s an effort to the one-time heroes out of the darkness, I might pick up a trade or two.

Especially if you write Superman. Here’s to truth, justice and the American way.

I don’t take credit for much, but I do take credit for calling the modern movement in genre comics “superhero decadence.”

I’m just chiming to say it’s nice to know that Bill Willingham is still alive! I loved Elementals ‘back in the day’!

As for the meat of the post, I was buying a lot of TPBs for a few years there, but after DC went around ‘multiculturizing’ much of their characters (Blue Beetle as one example) I just gave up.

Video games are the fuel of today’s youth, not comic books, that’s why sales are down. I think the “darker” age of heroes goes to the 80’s when Miller’s “The Dark Night” blew us all away, so it’s not exactly a new trend. GMK, I do agree that the last Superman movie was terrible. However, the notion that the Big Blue Boy Scout would even father an illegitimate kid is the crux of the matter, and I think you’re being a little rude to Lois Lane–she has ALWAYS been the saucy lass, even in the 40’s. I doubt they’re checking out the older, darker comics. Both DC and Marvel have more youth oriented lines that keep things brightly colored and safe for the under-10 set. I’ve read comics for over 30 years myself (gulp) and I much prefer my old stuff (Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans run, anyone? Cockrum X-Men? Wow…I am OLD) to current work (although I stuck with Fables for a few years, Bill), and this past summer’s high gas prices pretty much stopped me dead. ECM–you may not like the “multiculturizing” of some modern heroes, but as a black person, I think it’s kinda cool that the color spectrum of heroes has widened since my youth.

What’s with all of the ”origin” stories? If I see how the Hulk became the Hulk one more time…. All of the great stories I read as a kid are being overlooked and taken for granted just to keep feeding the same popcorn movies every 3-4 years! Cmon already we know Banner has Gamma radiation!

i was watching Robot Chicken the other night, they were doing yet another Mr. Rogers parody. It occurred to me that the parodies now out number the originals. Mr. Rogers has been dead for years, and it’s quite possible for a kid to have grown up having seen a hundred vulgar jokes based on the show, and never have seen the real thing.

Something similar has happened in comics. The cynical anti-hero has dominated for twenty years now. The writers and editors need to stop thinking of themselves as clever. this is the biggest cliche going. And you cannot keep attacking the old noble hero concept a generation after it has been forgotten.

my comics collection was scattered to the winds a decade ago. but somehow i managed to hang on to the first year of Elementals. It was a great book. And it seemed written by someone wh wanted to push deeper real world problems on heros, not someone who hated the idea of heros.

years back i remember alex toth saying something very much along the same lines as you. can’t remember where though.

Thank you very much, Mr. Willingham, for your brave piece. I’ll be posting a link to it on my Monitor Duty comics blog.

I remember a Superman comic, post “Our Worlds At War” but not yet reflecting September 11th [for the uninitiated: comics lag far behind events due to the time each stage of creation takes] where Lois and Clark are talking in a theater and Clark openly asks, “Is it really so much about the American Way anymore? Shouldn’t I be about something bigger?” Just one of those dopey questions asked by liberals who can’t be bothered to find out what anyone means by the term.

A mere month later, probably reflecting 9/11, Superman poses on the cover in front of a huge flag, with the words “and the American Way” in huge print! Odd to see a change of heart so fast in the Superman editorial offices. If only the content of DC Comics had reflected a similar change of heart. Alas, it hasn’t.

FYI: I’ll be doing a piece on Monitor Duty about superhero comics and the Bush Administration/War on Terror…hopefully by January 20th.

Thank you. I had given up on comics for the very reasons you detail.

Thank you, Mr. Willingham. My subscriptions have dwindled down to almost zero. I will certainly look forward to your future works.

Bill, I heard that you were going to take over the writing reigns on JSA? That would be a perfect title in which to fulfill your new “mission statement.”

Thanks for speaking out so eloquently on this, Bill.
As the companies have made their icons more “real” and “edgy” they’ve steadily pulled away from the identities that the mainstream public associated with them. Sales have reflected this. That’s why we talk about market share in our business rather than circulation. It keeps everyone’s mind of the fact that superhero comics, as they are presented today, are finding less and less of an audience while other genres of comics are seeing climbing sales in the book and library market.
You and I both know that there are plenty of comic creators who feel the way we do but are fearful of speaking up as it will adversely affect their career.

I don’t so much have a problem with the article by Mr. Willingham because it does have some credence and serves as a valid counterpoint to alot of the stories going on today. BUT, I am particularly puzzled by some of the replies made to the article.

@ECM- I see nothing wrong with the multiculturizing of comics. In fact, if comics have any intention of keeping their sales afloat maybe they would do better to try and appeal to a wider audience. The big publishers could stand to borrow some cultural ideas from other sects of American society and not cater to white males. And that’s probably my biggest issue with the people who call for a return to the “American way” in comics. It seems they’re usually referring to a return to big, strapping white guys with dazzling smiles.

@Dilmore- I take opposition to your stance that somehow if you’re liberal you’d never do anything for your country. And *gasp* it would be absolute blasphemy for you to join the military. My father served proudly in the US Army for 25 years and is pretty much your standard liberal. Personally, I don’t think comic characters should tread into the cultural wasteland that is conservative vs. liberal unless it was built into their character from the jump. It only divulges us (sadly, in a country that’s supposed to respect the ideas and freedoms of others) into off-base assumptions like the one you made.

@Hutchinson- What are you talking about? I remember that question and it was an honest question to ask. The man had just got done fighting a planetary war. I don’t see the big deal in asking that question. Superman has always been a man of the world and not just America. America doesn’t have to go around doing good and proclaiming “this is of America” every time we do it. We do it just because it’s the right thing to do and that’s what I felt was at the heart of him asking that question. Not some liberal minded person trying to break down the integrity of Superman. Why read something hateful and negative into something that probably wasn’t?

Overall, I just get this idea that if you’re a liberal comics fan you A) Hate America and B) Don’t want your heroes to be heroes

I am neither and I am proudly liberal. I just get positively sick of seeing these broad generalizations on both sides of the fence. I’m sure there are plenty of conservative comic readers who get off on seeing Jamie Reyes as Blue Beetle and the hyper-sexual X-Men by Fraction. I would like to see a move away from this kind of political classification, but people are so gung ho I guess we’ve stopped seeing each other as people and just as labels.

Well, if anyone wants to label me you can just call me a comic reader. Screw the liberal and conservative attachments. Peace.

Sketchball999: Ha! *You* wish.

As far as superheroes go, I haven’t really read any comic books–I’ve stuck to the movie adaptations. a TV show or two and a couple of novels. Still, I thoroughly agree that we have far too many anti-heroes and not enough true heroes around. Even Superman hasn’t fared well. Making him three-dimensional doesn’t require turning him into a whiny liberal who lets himself be dominated by the ultimate feminist nut (yes, I’m talking about Lois). It simply requires fleshing out his character, developing him as a fellow human being, as a *person*. What does he believe in, why does he believe it, what drives him to do what he does, how is it reflected in his personal likes and dislikes and such… These are all relevant issues that we don’t see covered nearly enough, or at least not satisfactorily.

For my two bits, I’d like to say–wouldn’t a guy who immigrated here as a baby from another planet and was raised in the heartland of America by two loving and salt-of-the-earth parents, then ventured out into the world to make a difference, be a paragon of American conservatism and small-town values? Why on Earth would he let himself be basically *enslaved* by a city rife with amorality and corruption, ruled over by a man who abuses the system and pretends to be a savior for the sake of his own gain (Lex Luthor is not a capitalist, he’s a tyrant), and entangle himself with a bitchy and immature woman who constantly botches her assignments and often double-crosses him in pursuit of her obsession with his costumed alter-ego? Why would he do that? Where’s the truth, justice, and American way in that? I don’t see any. It’s as if Superman doesn’t even realize how much of a pawn he is to his own nemesis and the twisted world that allowed such a despicable excuse for a human being to come to power.

This needs to change, ladies and gentlemen. We need to give our heroes back their morality and good sense, and I can think of no-one better to start with than the first and greatest comic-book superhero of all time. What say you?

That is just a bunch of silliness from Willingham. What has really made superheroes more popular in recent years isn’t that they are grim and gritty. What has made them popular is that superheroes are finally being portrayed as human beings, who, as in The Elementals, battle the evil despite their flaws. This is what lends hope to people. It gives the message that they too have the ability to be more than the mistake laden, flaw burdened people that they are, but can gain redemption despite their transgressions and feelings, and become heroic.

I’d highly recommend ‘Atomic Robo’ by Clevinger/Wegener from Red Five comics for some gold old fashioned Nazi-stompin stand up heroing. But I’m a sucker for anything Atomic.

One problem, Criminal Comics, superheroes aren’t more popular in recent years. Modern comic sales are a fraction of the circulation they enjoyed in the 1940s and again in the 1960s. Kids just don’t read comic books anymore, even though they will line up around the block for the movies. Hmmm, a strange paradox, that.

The fact that “dark & gritty” is the most predictable cliche going is much like how being another faceless member of the left/slacker crowd makes you “different” in some miraculous way. Or how the most atrocious CGI is somehow OK, but models or rubbersuits are laugh-worthy to some of toady’s audiences.

Well I have fissioned off 5 boys, and they never ask to read anything. I make them read comics that I find appropriate, which is few and far between, and then start them on ‘A Princess of Mars’ at about 11. It’s the best I can do, I hope it takes.

I will say that Bruce Timm’s DC universe has done wonders for their abilty to recognize obscure DC comic characters. They are far more conversant in DC than Marvel because of that. And Bruce got it right, as far as characterization goes.

The only Marvel characters they know are the movie ones, and Captain America due to the large collection of old Cap issues I have.

To Maatkare:

“surely Wonder Woman is the ultimate feminist nut?”

Nah. Amazons in general may not think much of men, but I’m pretty sure Diana has come to respect them by now (not just Clark himself, either, though they are close friends). She wants to be treated as an equal. Someone like Lois, however, views herself as inherently better than men (and even other women) and will compromise any margin of integrity she has to “get the scoop”.

“And Superman went to the big city because that’s where the crime was. Adventures of Farm Boy just doesn’t have the same ring to it.”

Touche. I’m not saying that Metropolis isn’t full of problems that need addressing–it clearly is. The problem is that Superman is cast as some kind of divine hero who will cure all our ills for us. He’s frequently compared with Jesus Christ, whom millions of people worship as a savior. (Ironically enough, his original creators were Jewish.) What these people fail to recognize, however, is that there is a real man beneath that image they created, a man who just wants to do his part to make the world a better place. In my opinion, Superman doesn’t deserve the stigma of being cast as the flawless savior–on the contrary, he deserves to be seen as a leader, someone who will guide us and help us to make the world better. He ought to teach us that the power is in our own hands, that each and every one of us can be a hero if we so choose.

“I think the more old-fashioned superhero tales are still being told”

I think so too, and I believe they need to regain their prevalence. Parents showing them to their children, as you suggested, is a good starting point.

No matter what your background, anyone can make a difference–and the power to do so gives us the responsibility to make a positive difference. That’s what superheroes, above all else, should teach us.

IMHO, despite some of the uninformed knocks written above, the current Blue Beetle series has been a shining light among DC’s output. After the new Beetle overcame his rookie learning curve, the series’ portrayal of family unity and simple moral uprightness over the past year have made it a hidden gem on the comic rack.

Naturally DC’s canceled it, so there’ll be none of that peskiness anymore…

Holy cow some real comic book people are in here…..

But as for characters being real people. I don’t buy comics/go to movies/watch TV to see people who are like me. Because its been the dominant idea in the pop culture

its freaking boring

Bill, how can we help support your decision? Are you writing any superhero books now? Or do you have any upcoming superhero books? Let us know!

I stopped reading Marvel a long time ago. To me, it seems that whole universe of characters has gotten darker, less heroic, and morally ambivalent. I started reading DC and it seems there is more good heroic characters and messages there. But, even DC Comics portrays too much “anti-heroism”.

I don’t know the personal ideologies of writers Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns, but I they both are recent writers that write pretty darn good guy vs. bad guy superhero comics. Geoff Johns is really good at it. His “Justice Society of AMERICA” (not just ‘JSA’) is a prime example. The whole premise is older heroes mentoring newer ones, to make “better heroes”. “Green Lantern” is another of Johns’ classic/but updated hero series. I recommend both these titles.

But let us know, Bill. Not to exclude other titles or writers, but I think there are probably a bunch of comic fans out there who long for good/morally positive/American freedom & liberty pursuing comics to buy & read.

@Larry Bernard

You are right Larry. You don’t read superhero comics to read about people who are like you. You are reading about superheroes, and I don’t think any of us are. Personally, I would look awful in spandex, tights of any color, or body suit, no matter what you put on it.

Part of what makes superheroes interesting and relative is that they show us the way. That these people, powers or no, can overcome themselves to be better, to be stronger, and rise above their own flaws to become superheroic. It is a transformative message that has transcended many cultures and across millennia. It is a powerful and joyous message that we can all be better, that we all have the ability to become more than humans, but superhumans.

@Captain Atom

Relating the popularity of comics to the 40’s and 60’s is just plain silly, for media and culture have changed. Whether for better or worse is not an argument.

I work in a comic store, and I can tell you that when I have a copy of The Ultimates on me, or Powers, or Red Son, or Kingdom Come, or any other comic, people come up to me and want to talk about comics. This isn’t just in the neighborhood of the store, but also in the hotel in which I used to work, high schools across the city, or even waiting in line at the fast food joint. Comics are amazingly popular, so much so that they are not only being used as feeding ground for Hollywood (Congrats on the Fables television show, Mr. Willingham), but comics also continue to gather awards from outside the industry, as well as serious attention from academia.

Comics aren’t considered simply entertainment, anymore. Comics are art! (I hope Mr. Eisner is smiling from heaven about that.)

Superheroes continue to be popular, which is why the Big Two continue to dominate the industry. People love superheroes. In my store alone, the number of subscribers has grown by over 742.5%, and all of them love superheroes.

It is true, however, that comics as an industry is not as strong as they once were, despite recent accolades. However, the reasons for such have very little to do with the popularity of superheroes, but rather with the decisions of people within that industry.

I appreciate this stand. Comics need more people who think this way.

I have to look at what appears to be a lauding of the “A stands for France” line and wonder if Mr. Willingham gets it, without really getting it. That line encapsulates all that I hate about what Mr. Willingham is ranting about.

Dumbness of the line aside (”why yes, I did think an “A” stood for France, because… I can’t read!”), what a horrible snarky thing for Captain America to say, especially considering he likely fought along thousands of brave French soldiers and citizens who died to help save their country.

But, y’know, it’s fun to make fun of the French and the line sounds cool enough if you don’t think about it too hard, and Ultimate Captain America well, he’s built more in an “Americaaaa F*** YEAH” vein…

Which is symptomatic of the problem we’re talking about here.

For the record, I don’t mind stories where my Black and White heroes are forced to address Greys. In fact, hard choices make for great stories. I just want the integrity of the character to be respected when they do so, and for their hard choices to make sense. Meaningful dark is fine. Interesting dark is fine. Dark for darkness’s sake is not (or for the sake of moralizing or the sake of “kewl” dialogue or the sake of… well, you get the idea.)

sketchball999 – January 10th, 2009 at 11:30 am
conservatism is cause by repressed homosexuality.

you are quite clearly all gay.

Sketch,

According to an article in Discover magazine recently on homosexuality genes in animals, (I have to spend a lot time in airports and I like to read about science – sue me!!). The gene that is associated with homosexuality is actually better stated as a “bisexual” gene. The studies found that the only “gay” animals have that gene and that animals with that gene are as likely to be heterosexual as they are homosexual. Though I only know what I read in the article let me make this counter hypothesis to you.

Conservatism is not produced by the repression of their homosexual nature.

Instead it is the homosexuals who are repressed since obviously they are not engaging in the hetersexual side of their bisexual gene.

But hey maybe one day science can answer this pressing question for the both of us.

Thanks for your insight.

Criminal Comics:

The problem with the overcoming flaws thing… since the 70s its been all comics are rolling out with. Maybe its time to see Heroes who inspire people to be better

While time and expense forced me to leave comic collecting behind about 8 years ago, when I left it seemed that with books like Kingdom Come and JLA were signs of a return to the heroism in comics, away from the grim and gritty.

Really, I don’t mind characters with some moral ambiguity, nor to see those with moral clairty (Superman, Cap) challenged with ambiguity. I loved the Byrne story in which Superman was forced to execute the kryptonian villains – not because it made Superman “dark” but because the guilt he felt over that act and the ramifications from that story would in the end reinforce his code. And I like the idea of the recent Civil War story (didn’t read it, so don’t take this as an endorsement of anything beyond the concept) which acknowelges that good men with different views of the world can disagree (in this case whether super-heroes must register with the government).

“Grim and edgy” (or better yet, mature and well written) need not be at odds with a hero with moral fortitude. Rag on Garth Ennis if you must, but Jesse Custer was one of the better heroes of the last 20 years.

No offense, but this is completely ridiculous. Like anyone looking to cause a knee jerk reaction you carefully select incidents to support your viewpoint and leave out overwhelming examples to the contrary. You mention a brief, very low point in Cap’s history under the Marvel Knights relaunch, while ignoring the superior and LONGER runs of Mark Waid before it and Ed Brubaker afterwards. Well, not until it comes to his death, anyway. I guess the part where he kills terrorists without apology or remorse would have put a dent in your little rant. You talk about the Superman movie, but ignore the comics altogether, especially, the award-winning All-Star Superman, which was a tribute to all the things you claim are gone. You ignore them because you know they would totally contradict your arguments. Under writers like Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, Geoff Johns, Kurt Busiek and Grant Morrison Superman has remained as true blue as he ever was, but you’re blind to it simply because his catchphrase isn’t a nationalistic and jingolistic enough to suit you. He’s not shoving the superiority of the American way of life down the throats of the world, so how could he possibly still be a hero? Hell, recently he was trying to build a family by adopting a Kryptonian boy. What could be less decadent than that!?!

And when was Tim Drake ever not a true and steadfast hero that your Robin run was something special? He was never anything less under Chuck Dixon (whom I’m very disappointed to see supporting this claptrap), but pointing that out would show you were twisting facts to suit your agenda. Not to mention the first and last issue of your Robin run that I read was the issue where Tim’s father threatened to reveal Bruce Wayne’s identity unless he stays away from Tim. You had Batman and Nightwing, two of the smartest men in the DC Universe not knowing what to do against such a threat, rather than simply point out it was hollow because it would also reveal that Tim was Robin! It’s not that they didn’t humiliate the man by pointing it out to him. They just didn’t realize it! Your writing skills there were as shoddy as your arguments here.

As strange as it may seem to you, this liberal left winger only buys the bright and shiny heroes. I haven’t missed an issue of Captain America since 1983 and am a sucker for everything with a big red “S” on it but have no patience for Wolverine or the mopey Daredevil. I like my guys to always do the right thing and always win, period. Ambiguity and compromises I can get in real life. This being the case, there’s not shortage of books for me to buy from Superman to Cap to Robin to Green Lantern to the JSA to the Lone freaking Ranger, who even in a more brutal reimgining, still maintains his code of not killing. There’s plenty of heroism out there on display, folks.

And you’re liking yourself alot to think that any shades of gray in comics were caused by your work. You can pretty much credit Frank Miller and Christopher Claremont with this. Miller with Dark Knight and Claremont with Wolverine. I doubt one in ten comic book fans or creators could even name a character from Elementals.

[...] post info By David Spira Categories: Uncategorized I’m a big fan of the Bill Willingham’s comics. He is a brilliant and talented writer, but this is unbelievable.  [...]

first,

kudos to breitbart, for putting comic creators on par with other creators from other fields…its about time.

and grats to bill for selling fables to abc (although they are gonna eff it up)

oh, and WorstThingUS, elementals may not be well known, but it did beat out both watchmen and the dark knight to the comic shoppe shelves, and bill does deserve some kudos for doing something no one else was doing (although i could argue that green arrow/green lantern and howard the duck, beat them all)

however…mr willingham….WHAT THE HELL ON YOU ON ABOUT??

you will do what sells

that is how the industry works

oh, and eisner decried the “dark hero” years ago…nice of you to finally catch on

btw, your work on elementals had nothing to do with you being “young and foolish” and everything to do with the attempt by many creators to finally rid themselves of the stifling comics code.

but you seem to want the code reenacted…at least on a personal basis.

thats fine…stifle your own creativity…but dont condemn those that choose not to see things your way.

comics sold the best in the pre ww2 days….millions of copies

these were also the pre code days….heroes killed people…bad guys were allowed to hit the hero and cause injury…cops could be shown as corrupt…etc…

so your theory on what made heroes popular doesnt stand the taste test.

post ww2, super hero comics popularity dropped significantly…what didnt were the crime and horror stories…ec was filled with moral ambiguity and moral turpitude…and teens and young adults ate it up…until the kefauver commission and the code came and killed off the industry

it really took marvel to reinvigorate the industry. sure their heroes had moral clarity…but they were also allowed to show a human side.

but by the 70s, the industry was dying again…basically thanks to what you believe is the best and only way to present the super hero

it took creators like you and mr hudnall to shake off the code and create characters and stories that readers could relate to.

but if you wish to return to those wonderful days of the code…more power to you

i just want good writing, good art (which means no one can ever use rob liefield) and the occasional blood splattered splash page.

and mr hudnall, its great to see when a comic book creator doesnt have a clue about what moore was saying with watchmen and rorshach. “he is the only one that got what was going on” really? a sociopath who thought that world wide nuclear war trumped world wide peace? the reader is left with with a moral quandry for a reason.

If you want to read a comic about a real-life superhero, check this out:

http://www.noenemybutpeacecomic.com

The true story of Sergeant Marco Martinez, told by one of his fellow Marines.

Good to see you put this out. While I am a fan of the occasional gritty and gory, I don’t think this belongs in Superhero books, per se. Garth Ennis while gritty, doesnt’ “get” the underlying values of most of the heroes and as such his work while entertaining is so ruthlessly cynical that you have to read an Archie Comic or some cute manga to get the taste of Garth out of your brain. When I was working in Comics (back when I could afford to), I too put my foot down on a few items but back then for the most part the editor supported me. I think these days , even if Marvel and D.C. with the comics being the tail of the dog rather than the engine of their prosperity, that the Editors are going to be more bottom line oriented and the same group think that keeps the comics similar with similar art styles, will also keep the sort of treatment of its protagonists similar as well. Also the “Obama Demographic” that is overlapping the readership will have things written with that side of the political spectrum as the default. It will be hard to fight, but I wish you good luck.

Scott

[...] has surely seen the 175-car pile-up that is the Robot 6 comment thread to Bill Willingham’s article on politics and superheroes. (I love how the Superman picture chosen there is the Alex Ross pose [...]

Sorry, that should read “like Dracula from Van Helsing wielding a cross.” Wish this had an edit function.

PAD

Also @Larry Bernard

And about flawed superheroes being the only offering since the 70’s, well, I disagree heartily. I strongly recommend Gail Simone’s Wonder Woman, as well as Welcome to Tranquility (wonderful title, it should have gotten more love), and, again, some Green Arrow, for he is one character who will not compromise his sense of morality.

This comment section is unbelieveable. People are actually making gay jokes?! Laughing and using the word gay in the pejorative sense? Are you all still in high school? How you feel about homosexuality is your own business, but there is no need to mock others like a child. Mr Willingham, this is your forum. It does not speak well of you to let people take cheap shots at minority groups here. I was looking forward to your run on JSA before I came here. Now I am quite frankly worried.

“By all means, create all the *new* heroes you want of any ethnicity/gender/sexuality/etc. but there is no need to *kill off* existing heroes to make way for multicultural versions that trade on the names of classics that have been around for decades–is this an unreasonable view in your estimation?”

ECM, I see your point (Hell, I was pissed when they killed Barry Allen and made Kyle Rayner Green Lantern), but we’re not exactly talking about top-tier heroes being changed, are we? The Atom and Blue Beetle aren’t flagship characters with firm images in the zeitgeist these days. Batwoman hasn’t been seen since what, the 60’s? And since comic book “death”/retirement is extremely flexible, there’s certainly a chance that Ray Palmer and Ted Kord will reappear. Of course, no character is immune from re-imagining, or the subsequent “correction.” Anyone remember that insanely stupid electrified Superman? Went away. And wonder of wonders, Hal Jordan is back.

Billy Ray:

Hitler? Really? That’s your argument against the more realistic characterizations of modern comics? “But Hitler was bad”?

Again, I ask what good it is for a comic to be a role model, there, if that is the goal of reducing superheros to flat, good guy archetypes. If your kid doesn’t know that genocide is bad, he’s a sociopath. You should probably take the comic book out of his hands and lock him away in a psychiatric ward somewhere. As for adults, well, we usually need more nuanced stories to stay engaged.

Mister Willingham, I appreciate your enthusiasm for comics’ good old days, but I really doubt that a writer as talented as you could possibly recreate those kind of absurdly silly stories for too very long before you wanted to beat your own head against the keyboard until you bled out your ears. When was the last time you picked up one of the old DC Archive Editions and read a pure good vs pure evil superhero story that an adult would pay money to read, had it been written today? You can’t; they’re crap.

You helped change the industry for a reason. A current state of sentimentality and some reactionary political instincts don’t make your younger self retroactively wrong.

There’s a reason why I’m more likely to pick up Showcase Presents: Teen Titans or Showcase Presents: Batman and The Outsiders or Showcase Presents: Brave and the Bold. There’s nothing about All-Star Batman and Robin The Boy Wonder that appeals to me. If it appeals to you – great. I’ll stick to reading The Batman Adventures back issues and the Marvel Adventures line. I’ll get my “edgy” fix from Starman.

To me, the problem with a lot of modern comics isn’t the inclusion, or even the pervasiveness, of “gritty” themes. Real people have flaws, especially those who have power or get drawn into conflicts often enough to hang a long-running series on, so it’s understandable that such themes would predominate. The problem is the reflexive assumption in many writers’ minds that any pretention to traditional morality must be the product of either a diseased mind or bad faith. It’s not clear what some writers think is actually “good,” as opposed to not just being “not-evil,” where evil is usually nationalism or being less than fully accepting of approved victim groups. The result is that the storyline spends most of its time positively wallowing in vice, with no hope except through sexual gratification, the extent of love it’s apparently permissible to show. That sort of thing is why I got tired of series like Preacher, good writing or no.

I never had a taste for traditional superhero comics, so I don’t really have a model for an overall style where I think comics were done “right.” Sandman at least had a vision of something transcendent beyond the grime, which was why I could enjoy it even if I disagreed with some of it morally. And Fables is probably my favorite American comic series of all time, to the extent I actually bought the TPBs even when I had free access to the one of the world’s best comic libraries.

Still, one of the reasons I read a lot more manga than American comics is that over there it’s perfectly acceptable to write storylines, even dark and apocalyptic ones, where the the ultimate message is something like the importance of family.

Mr. Willingham,

So what I don’t understand, crazy liberal that I am, is why you post you’re posting your comments here, on a conservative site, when this is not really a conservative/liberal issue, but a creative issue that will have agreement and detractors regardless of their political persuasion? (I myself have argued the same as you have, that some heroes may have their doubts and failings, but what makes Superman “Superman” is his unambiguous moral code and his confidence in his values.)

Oh–and I have always considered the removal of “and the American Way” (which was not used in the Fleischer cartoons, so I assume it was added to the TV show in the ’50s as a sop to the Kefauver committee–and I admit I might be wrong about the exact chronology there) as not impugning America, but rather an acknowledgment–as he became more of a galactic hero in the ’60’s through ’80’s–that truth and justice were not parochial attitudes of one country alone, and that the “American way” wasn’t necessarily the right answer for all cultures at all times. Then again, it could have just been the decision of a multi-national corporation who doesn’t want to offend anyone. You never know.

Isn’t fighting for Truth and Justice enough of a moral code? Does Superman need to boost a single political/economic system as well? How about if he fights a neverending battle for truth, justice, and democratic capitalism?

Thanks, Mr. Willingham, for such a great and thought-provoking article. While I continue to enjoy reading comics as I have for over 25 years, I do tire of the dark tones, implied profanity, and implied sex in superhero comics today. I believe comics can deal with today’s social themes without having to do it so overtly. I don’t mind one working in the gray areas of morality, as long as the gray area isn’t larger than the areas of good and evil. That is, I’m tired (both in comics and in the world as well) of good and evil being thought of as too boring to deal with and so shades of gray have become so commonplace.

Also, somebody looking for a Superhero story where the protagonist stand against the “decadent” superheroes surrounding him, should check out Action Comics #775. One of the best Superman stories ever. It’s about the same things talked about here, but without the political undertones.

Mr. Willingham,
Thanks for you kind words. I know what you mean about not being computer adept. It took my three days to figure out how to change the shipping price on my paypal account for the comic..

Anyway, here is a link to a .pdf file of the comic for reviewers:

http://www.thomasmauer.com/no-enemy-but-peace-review.pdf

To all of those reading this file, enjoy this free peek of the comic .

I’d love to hear your reactions.

Well I’m not American, but having visited the country a number of times this sort of thinking seems to be particularly American. So often everything seems black and white in the US, and I’m not talking about moral relativism, I’m talking about simplistic two sided arguments – the ‘you are either with us or against us philosophy.’ Frankly it is anti-intellectual and simplistic.

I’ve read comics for over 20 years, and while I find a lot of Chuck Dixion’s political beliefs quite frankly scary, the man could write a good superhero story. Some of his work on Nightwing, Robin & Birds of Prey stands head and shoulders above some of the work that followed him (He had his misses as well, but still, a lot was pretty good). I say this because I’m not here to stand on a soap box and criticizes someones work because of their political beliefs. But, having Read every issue of Robin, one of the examples Bill Willingham uses to make his point, I have to say that his run on the book really wasn’t very good. Now this is just my opinion obviously and others will no doubt differ, but a lot of it seemed forced and out of character. Now I’ve also read the 2 issue of Fables that were drawn by Mike Allred, which seem written perfectly well written. My experience from reading Willingham’s corporate own superhero work is that he isn’t very good at it. maybe he should stick to what he is good at and steer clear of these tirade.

“Witness what Alan Moore did with the three Superman stories he did (and Supreme, while we’re at it). Here’s a writer who’s know as the man who kick started the Grim and Gritty era, yet he showed great love and restraint when handling these characters.”

Yet he showed zero love and restraint when handed the Charlton characters. In point of fact, he proposed to take those classic characters and run them through the moral wringer. Deconstruct them to within an inch of their lives. Kick off that grim and gritty era over the creative corpses of established characters. The restraint was provided not by Moore but by editorial higher ups who said, “How about you create original characters instead and do the same story?”

And most of his Superman stories were not in continuity. Not “real books,” to use your phrase.

Just sayin’.

PAD

Dear Bill,
Isn’t what you do with FABLES pretty much the same as what you are complaining regarding current Superheros?
Let’s be honest, if originally there had been a comic book industry centered around those fairy-tale characters what would fans of those original fairy-tales feel if they now saw what happened to those characters in your book?
Following your logic, for example, having Prince Charming betray Snow White and have them divorce, isn’t that a total betrayal of who those characters were in the first place?

I dont think they’ve lost their hero edge.

They’ve just lost the B.S. “everything is black and white, good or bad” attitude and realized that there’s no 100% perfect person in this world and no solution is ever just “good versus evil”.

No villain exists in this world that sits around doing things just for the sake of “evil”.

Life’s too complex. Therefore heroes must be complex as well. Your idea of a true “hero” that is picture perfect is trite and to be honest, a bit naive.

Mr. Hudnall,

That’s a good point, and actually I have personally been wrestling with the realization that if comics hit four bucks a pop, I may have to stop collecting them, if not seriously curtail my purchasing.

Regarding what you said about Captain American and Superman, I wonder, what if those writers feel the same way as you do? They think that they “get” these characters and are writing what they believe is truest to the character. If their interpretation doesn’t jibe with your’s or mine, does it make their work less true to the character? Editors need to make the decision of what is best for the character (admittedly, when money comes in to play, that changes the dynamic of caring for the character and selling the book). However if its a bit more nuanced, for example, I’ve always thought of Cap as an intelligent, diplomatic character that fights when needed but does explore other options (like ‘gasp’ trying to rationalize with the enemy), other people, like Mr. Willingham think he should kick ass and let God sort them out. Who can really say what that character would really be like, especially after 60-some odd years of evolution.

I think it boils down to writing ability. Being morally clear does not have to be boring and one dimensional, and having that morality tested or having doubts does not have to be whiny or soap opera-ish, when done by competent writers. Its only natural that with the amount of people in the industry and the volume of work that’s being put out you will have some hits and you will have some misses. This does not mean that there is we’re in a period of superhero decadence because Superman is considered a global character who no longer says, “and the American way”, because Batman may actually consider killing the person who killed his parents or because Robin is in Afghanistan fighting in a war that was started over false intelligence information. As for Marvel characters, as I’ve said before, imperfect characters is the pretty much the Marvel way.

Here I thought “the American way” meant criticizing your country and not blindly following ideology in the name of patriotism. Guess I read different history books than Mr. Willingham did. Or you know, any at all.

Ha! Dan made a funny. He’s read history books and none of us has, get it?

No Dan, “The American Way” does not mean criticizing your country. You criticize it when it is wrong.

It is possible, you understand, to develop an understanding of history that reinforces an ideology other than the one you seem to believe is inherently superior. Which in your case boils down to “America is always wrong” unless I miss mark.

You also realize that “America is always wrong” is an historical construct developed in the 50s to explain away the failure of the inevitable dialectic of Marxism in the US, right? Since the proletariat never rose (supposedly inevitable), the paradigm had to be shifted to a global scale, with the US/west representing the Capitalist Oppressors.

You read that in your history books, right Dan?

You don’t know very much about the history of your medium, do you Mr. Willingham? Superman started as an amoral vigilante who threw slumlords off buildings and beat the tar out of corrupt police. Batman wasn’t much better. It wasn’t until later that they got their acts cleaned up and became upstanding defenders of “traditional” values. The media produced and consumed in the 1930s was typically every bit as violent and morally neutral as what we consume today. It was the institution of new rules to control it that led to the supposed “golden age of morality” that you wish for, not some moral code that has only recently been dispensed with. I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this, but your decisions on a comic written 30 years ago weren’t so groundbreaking or novel that they threw an entire aspect of American culture off the tracks. It was just a return to what people want; heroes that they can identify with. Which a Superman who fights for “Truth, Justice, and the American Way,” and who never feels any sort of doubt or makes any mistakes simply can’t provide.

I’ve been a lifelong comics fan. I stopped following the actual story lines in the print in the late 90s(its an expensive hobby)but Im well versed in much of the lore and cannon of these great characters.
So, these last few years the genre has exploded all over film and television and now that my life long dream of seeing my favorites in live action, Ive felt somewhat let down by Hollywood.
Im a newly minted conservative, and although Ive never been a flaming liberal, I, like most people just went along with most of fantasies of the left.
Now I realize, Batman doesn’t have nipples on his costume, Supes does not or has never had a son out of wedlock or otherwise, and Captain America has become Captain UN.
They even want to make GI JOE:An International Hero or some such tripe.
I will have to say, and Im sure it wasen’t intentional, but I think The Dark Knight had a solid conservative message.
Its sad, because these people are not real, but my family and I enjoy these movies, cartoons and TV shows together because I find it hard these days to find better influences for my children. Certainly DC has more integrity then Washington DC.
My 5 yr old told me he wants to be President the other day, and while I encouraged it, secretly I was hoping he’d settle for more honest work, like working in the porn industry or something.
Seriously, I stated in another blog that I would love to see a good conservative director take the reins of the Superman movies and portray him as the kansas farm boy, boot wearing, flannel having conservative that he really is. NO MORE DEADBEAT DAD!! No more poofy “S” shield made of little diamond Ss. Somebody save him from Brian Singers flamboyance!!
OK, thanks for letting me babble!

BTW Shem, we have heroes we can identify with they’re called police, military, firefighters….what we want are SUPERheroes we can strive to emulate. All great mythologies contain this element. If Batman acted like the rest of us he’d just be that retard next door who dresses in a bat suit.
Maybe the genre wasen’t created with the intention to reflect good morals but that doesn’t mean it has to bend at the knees for moral relativism like the rest of the entertainment industry. Sheep aren’t very smart animals. Why be one?

Great article.

Just last year I finally stopped collecting comics, having started as a young lad in the early 70’s.

Comics taught me to read. Comics were my life blood. Comics just weren’t fun for me any more.

As a big fan of the JSA, I’m looking forward to your run and will actually have to pick it up.

I aggree with mr. willingham on quite abit of what he said, but feel that what should be done is a ballencing of the anti-hero and hero so that there are choices, but have been annoyed at some of the blatant anti-conservative stances of some writers. when a writer steps over the line to purposefully sway the audience to his political stances and executes character assasinations of public figures instead of, at least, debating the issues without strawmen, through the story it is tantamount to being a blatant betrayal of the readers. As well, too many characters : Xavier, Stark, Superman, Batman, Cyclops etc. have been purposely smutted by writers who disagree with a certain thing:

Xavier – things for young Jean, enslaving a living computer, erasing memories
Cyclops – cheating on his wife and dumping her for a former villian who personifies immorality??? even when on the right side???? and then setting up his own SS ????? And why are the X-men becoming more like a militant rights group that only sticks up for its own instead of the pursicuted protecting a world and fear and loathes them???
Iron Man – setting up Spiderman and betraying him and defiling the memory of
Thor when he already had big guns on his side????
Spidey and MJ making a deal with the devil??? to save Aunt May, who would never+ want them to make that deal???
Superman preaching a missionaries, who are trying to help people who are under the boot of an african dictator that is pursicuting them?????? what the hell?? and abandoning the earth in final crisis????
wonderwoman snapping the neck of maxwell lord instead of finding another way???
and don’t get me started on Mary Marvel.
- alot of these stories have brought good followups, but it deffinately reflects the moral reletivity of alot of our culture, but quite often they don’t real rise above the philosophic malaise which weakens our society, especialy when these stories purport to explore such complexities with a fair examination. these are some of the crimes, and they need to be address with solid story telling that redeams these characters, and redemption stories with a clear moral are universal and right.

Shoot, I should have said “Fred 2″ in the post above.

@ Maatkare

I posted these comments originally at Comic Book Resources, but they just as revelent on this thread:

“Actually, critics of non-White legacy heroes like Blue Beetle aren’t exclusively White or even conservative. Sure, there are Black comic fans who applauded when the original Firestorm is[sic] replaced with a Black guy.

Then, there are Black fans who viewed the new Firestorm as a half-hearted attempt at diversity by DC. Such fans would prefer publishers to create NEW non-White superheroes.

Blogger Rich Watson expounds on this point in his commentary on the recent DC/Milestone merger:

‘Something else about this deal bothers me. DC executive vice-president Dan DiDio insists that it’s not about wanting to diversify the DCU, but it’s about bringing great material into the DC universe, and being able to add value to everything we do. Well, that sounds all nice and noble, but riddle me this: why is it that whenever DC decides to throw a bone to readers of color, they put their best efforts into making legacy characters connected to pre-established ones? Green Lantern II (John Stewart). Mr. Miracle II. Steel (originally one of the replacement Supermen and who is still considered part of the Superman family). Mr. Terrific II. Jakeem Thunder (successor to Johnny Thunder). Firestorm II. And to go beyond black characters, there’s Atom III (an Asian-American), Question II (a Latina), and Batwoman II (a lesbian).

Remember Muhamamad X? Skyrocket? Orpheus? Chances are you don’t. These were original heroes of color created within the DCU but were given little chance to shine for very long and now linger in superhero limbo. Sure, someone could use them again, but it’s so much easier to buy someone else’s characters, especially when they come with their own built-in fanbases. Typical corporate mentality.’

Read the rest of the blog post here:

http://www.popcultureshock.com/blogs/milestone-does-not-belong-within-the-dcu/

Not surprisingly, some Black fans opposed to non-White legacy heroes have decided to starting[sic] creating their own comics.

In short, it’s simplistic to declare ‘evil’ White conservatives are the only ones offended by non-White legacy heroes.”

[...] superhero comic book writer probably best known for his Sandman ripoff series Fables, has a post up calling for superheroes to act more heroic. Unsurprisingly, to Willingham, "heroic" means [...]

Excellent news about JSA. Consider me sold the moment your name appears on the cover. If anyone are candidates for heroic clarity of purpose it would be the roster of that team.

A stupid, graceless and incompetent death drove me away from Captain America comics, after over 30 years of collecting, since Madbomb and The King. I have ample stupidity, gracelessness and incompetence in my work environment; I don’t need to add to it when I am reading for pleasure.

Shem-Since you brought it up, no being conservative does not mean that at all. While a good majority of conservatives choose God to put their faith in we are by no means as monolithic as you think. I by no means BLINDLY put my faith in anyone BUT myself. The American Constitution is predicated on the idea that we are ALL responsible for our selves. Not the government, not the “experts”, or elites of society.
The misconception is a conservative is that fascist WASP who can’t handle a little controversy. Lets be mindful of the fact that Democrats and/or leftists had a lock on slavery and segregation, the Vietnam war, fanatical violence in the 60’s and 70’s, attempts at censorship in the 80s and 90s, and higher theft (taxes) across the board. Who sounds more dominating?
Our first responders, police, military, firefighters, etc are not the SS. I know its popular on the left to think that way (I know I was a leftist for 2 decades), but if you really think about it, these men and women are our brothers, fathers, mothers etc. They have a stake in this society and are not neo fascist stormtroopers. The freedom you enjoy to believe fantasies and spout them publicly, are only possible through their services and courage. Faced with life and death could you say the same about yourself?
Don’t give me the crap of police brutality or somesuch tripe, there are a few bad apples everywhere and they should go to jail. Your moral relativism though does not take into account that unlike real armies of “authority and domination”, these professionals really work for US. But instead of being the authority to the “Authority” most choose a victim role. Its easier, its common, it gets more publicity, and for unlikeable people, it gains them some fairweather friends.
Today, unfortunately, the general public ( and, it seems, most pols) don’t have a working knowledge of our Constitution, our Founders intentions, or what America stands for. Its hard to debate people who have been sold a bill of goods of a Utopian, equal society. WOW they say, sounds great, you mean I can leave all my important decisions to the government? Considering how well they’ve done with social security, welfare, medicaid/medicare, the Iraq War, FEMA, the BMV, public schools, FREDDIE and FANNIE, our infrastructure, elections, the border, the “bailouts”..etc..etc..etc, I think I’ll stick to faith in myself.
I have faith in people as individuals. Not as a tyrannical collective. The government is a collective. Congress is a festering reservoir of mass hysteria. Government is evil, a necessary evil but evil none the less.
That in a nutshell, is conservatism. But again just like liberalism, its not the only example.
Just be thankful that DESPITE our government, you live in relative peace with most of your rights still intact. Conservatives want to “conserve” those rights and you and your families dignity as individual human beings and not some cog in the collective machine.

At the risk of breaking some fragile fanboy hearts, I’ll lift the curtain a bit here on this subject.
Making iconic comic book characters more “realistic” or “grimmer” or “grittier” is most often the product of a bankrupt imagination rather than the opposite. These icons exist within a framework and have flaws built into their make-up given to them by their original creators.
They have supporting casts with established relationships and locations, situations and attitudes durable enough to allow them to last decades. These frameworks are sturdy, tested and malleable. Batman, over his lifetime, has been a grim avenger, dogged detective, silly, even sillier, a detective once again and a grim avenger to come full circle over 70+ years and always remained the Batman that the larger pop culture consumer can recognize. Hundreds of comic creators have worked on him and labored within that framework to work wonders yet left him as they found him for future creators to work on and future audiences to enjoy.
In recent years, the imagination-challenged have looked to what’s wrong with the characters rather than what’s right. Driven to delight an aging core fanbase with stories that are more “mature” and shocking, these flaws have been exploited to turn what were once heroes into murderous thugs, morally- conflicted dawdlers or serial abusers; the flaws that once made them more believable as characters have been turned into personal failings. We all have flaws built into us. That’s why we respond to characters facing challenges from the same flaws we see (or don’t see) in ourselves. But faults are something you’re supposed to do something about. Heroes do something about their faults so they don’t become permanent personality traits. We look up to them because they have the strength of character to do what we often cannot. They are meant to inspire us and show us our better angels.
This framework is too constricting for creators who look to improve their own standing over that of the characters they’re writing; the editor who wants to do a victory lap around the weekly editorial meeting; the writer who craves the attention of Wizard or some fan-driven website. They want credit for what they think of as breaking formula when all they’re doing is showing their failure to grasp the core appeal of the characters they’re working with. There’s a cynical disregard for what makes these icons work but it only serves to mask their own inabilities to create within guidelines and restrictions.
When your favorite, beloved character is revealed to be a deviant basketcase or found dead in an alley after being sexually violated it’s more a case of unbridled hubris rather than unbridled imagination. They’ve thrown out the rulebook, the characterization and decades of continuity and shrug when people object. It’s “what the audience demands.” That’s true if your audience is a steadily-shrinking one populated by increasingly cynical fans who fancy themselves as critics. Lately editors, publishers and/or creators have simply thrown in the creative towel with the lame “it’s all been done before.” Really? And why is this a problem now when it wasn’t over the prior fifty years?
Largely, the creators have eschewed plot for characterization. They want to explore what makes the character work and have that be what drives the stories. Try that with your iPhone and call me on a landline later to tell me how it all worked out.
In genre fiction, plot separates the men from the boys. Come up with an interesting, engaging story with rising action built into it and then set your character in motion within that plot. Only a dullard repeatedly extrapolates on a character’s personality and calls it a story. Only a dullard would enjoy that. Sure, you can get away with it once in a while and it’s cool to reward readers with some new revelation or reaction based on the antagonist’s core beliefs or conflicts. Those are moments that thrill longtime fans and add depth to the character’s world for casual readers. But these Tennessee Williams plays that go on for years and reach no cathartic resolution are tiresome; especially when presented in a medium and genre where we want to see the hero and his cast doing something.
Then there’s getting the character outright, pure-D wrong. This warping and wafting of long established heroes so that they can play a certain role in a story that can only work if you violate that character’s whole reason for being, as well as his coolness factor, are the mark of an ungifted mind.
Like the hero who throws aside all of his moral convictions to make a choice convenient for himself. The hero who gives in because his writer can’t think of a way out for him is common as well. Or, my personal bugaboo, the hero known for his steel trap mind suddenly displaying the intellectual capabilities of a teenager visiting Crystal Lake for the first time.
So many of these talents believe that by breaking the established and familiar framework of the protagonist they’re working on they’ve written the ultimate story of that character. What they may or may not fail to understand is that “ultimate” means “final”. Perhaps they think it means “most awesome”. I think many of them believe that their daunting imaginations have come up with the Last Word on the character.
Don Daley, my old editor on the Punisher back in the DeFalco days at Marvel, had a drawer full of scripts labeled “The Ultimate Punisher Story.” He let me read a few of them one time. There were scripts by wannabe and amateurs and a surprising number of top talents. They were of varying degrees of competence and professionalism. The one thing they had in common was that they were all the same story. In each story the Punisher accidentally kills an innocent. A child. A nun. A cop. Frank Castle then quits being the Punisher and becomes a priest. In every story. Every damned one. In some he quits being the Punisher forever and in others he’s dragged back into the vigilante game for some compelling reason. The other element that these scripts shared other than inciting incident, plot and resolution was that they got the core character of Frank Castle so entirely wrong that it was breath-taking. Unable to come up with a story for the Punisher, they decided to break the franchise and glue it back together in a new form they could understand.
Now, rather than ending up in a drawer of discards, this kind of scorched earth approach is at the center of multi-year event comics.
Ambiguity is the new hip in comics.

I used to say that it was a sad state of affairs in our country that the last noble person was a fictional character — Superman! But then Hollywood had to go and turn ol’ truth, justice and the American way into a home wrecker. Wuhh???!!

My problem is not with dark comics, it’s with characters who were never meant to be dark, and turning an entire crossover event to the “dark spectrum” just for the sake of being dark. Really now? Why did the new Superman movie have to go with a dirty dark blue and red for his costume and a Metropolis that looked like Gotham City? Know your heroes.

Batman can be dark. It works well with the character. Christopher Nolan’s movies prove this, especially when compared to Tim Burton’s version. Crossing the line is when writers like Grant Morrison seem to think that Batman’s fictional psychotic murdering bastard son, Damian, will make a perfect Robin. Again….. Wuhhhh???!!

And my biggest gripe is when publishers turn an entire field of titles to the dark side. Marvel’s Civil War was a big culprit although I sometimes find it unfair to bash that event because let’s be honest, it was a true allegory to the current mindset of America after 9/11. It’s just that in the real world, we realize that maybe we overreacted a bit, we elect a new President or Congress, repeal some of the crazier laws, and go on with our lives. In the comic world, Iron Man is forever — with lack of a better way to put it — a douchebag, Captain America is dead, and beloved superheroes who we once thought were true good guys are forever tarnished because for a few years, Marvel decided to pull out the “dark and gritty card” for its popular titles.

There’s nothing wrong with trying to emulate reality and giving most characters a grey mindset, but there’s also nothing wrong with creating a world where the good guys are still the good guys. Vertigo and Willingham’s terrific Fable series are there for writers who want to explore more complicated issues, but if you apply that and adult issues to your superheroes… just don’t be surprised if in 10 years we no longer have any grown-up kids to pass the torch to, who grew up reading about their favorite heroes & villains.

An interesting article and viewpoint. I agree on some, if not many, of the points Mr. Willingham has made.

I was a hug fan of his Elementals work when I was growing up, just as I am now a huge fan of his Fables work.

I do have a question for you Mr. Willingham, and anyone else who cares to join in. Do you think celebrity and fame has overtaken dark and gritty?

I have read comics for a long, long time. And I agree with the general statement that heroes have become much less heroic. They have always had their flaws, especially since the dawn of Marvel comics. However it seems that flaws have become their defining characteristics rather than their strengths, whether of character or sacrifice.

I don’t think many of today’s creators treat heroes as heroes as much as they treat them as celebrities. And like celebrties we rarely get to see the positive side of the person or character.

The celebrity angle of superheroes became a major comics theme back in the late eighties, early nineties. It was clever and new. And while celebrity was not always beautiful back then, it has become uglier and uglier each passing year.

I sometimes think the “dark and gritty” age has passed and that we are now in the “famous and broken” age. And comic stories reflect the public’s ever increasing demand for the fall from grace.

Superhero comics need a shot in the arm right about now, and if the next great comic innovation is an ideological shift, then bring it on. We need as many new ideas and positions as there are new books on the shelf every week.

I don’t have to agree with an author’s politics to enjoy the heck out of a good story- I can read DMZ and a flag-waving all-American Superman both in one sitting and be happy.

Fables is all the proof I need that Bill Willingham is a great storyteller. If he says that this is his new mission statement and muse, then I’m along for the ride. And I’m kind of a hippie.

My favorite style of comic books in the best shown in the Punisher MAX series. The Punisher sees ultimate evil and destroys it in various gory and vulgar ways. It’s like Golden age superman if superman used his strength to rip the heads of Albanian slave traders and Irish drug traffickers. It even pretty much stays to the moral code that Mr. Willington seems to enjoy. The corrupt gangster is not exemplified in the Punisher comics, he gets dowsed with gasoline and burnt to death.

[...] conservative Big Hollywood blog, that superheroes need to drop the grim-and-gritty schtick and embrace goodness and patriotism again. (I should point out, by the way, that while passionate message board denizens are predictably [...]

Hey, Bill;

Welcome to the party.

Back in 1999 when I conceived the basic story for New Frontier, I started with my alarm at the trajectory superhero comics were taking.

The entire project became an experiment of sorts-was it still possible to tell an engaging story featuring these shopworn characters without going grim and gritty or sacrificing their heroic nature.

Considering the sales, the animated film and the 9000 $75 Absolute Editions that DC has sold I’d say our readership is starved for this type of story.

Chuck D nailed, I believe- the grim and gritty era was ushered in by editors and writers who were unable or unwilling to create imaginative stories about heroic characters.

And still it goes on. This year J. Bone and myself pitched an all-ages Wonder Woman book aimed at young female readers. In other words, I wanted to give them at least 12 issues of a Wonder Woman book that any parent could give their child. They couldn’t have been less interested.

Darwyn

“[T]his whole piece is really just a reflection of the classic conservative myth of a golden age, from which we have fallen…”

So things can never get worse, only better? (Presumably through the wholesale trashing of the past and embracing progress. That’s the classic left wing myth). You can have decline in some areas while there is improvement in others. If a Roman Senator in 375 AD told you thought the Empire was in decline, i.e, loss of territory, economic stagnation, increase in barbarian incursions, would that be crazy talk of a conservative? Willingham points out the fact that modern comics, in general: 1) reject the idea of any moral code that heroes should try to live up to and be judged by; and 2) embrace leftist and jihadist tropes that the United states is a hopelessly corrupt, warmmongering, racist, a blight on the world, and needs to be opposed – that’s not nuance or diversity, kid; that’s a sign of a civilization in decline.

“While I’m sure you dismiss it as liberal propaganda, I think that volume 2 of the Ultimates did an excellent job demonstrating how destructive it would be if the U.S. employed superheroes to advance its foreign policy.”

I, mean, come on. Yes, it’s liberal propaganda and I’m sure Mark Millar would be like, “Yes, I’m anti-American, anti super hero, and that’s how I view things, you wanker.” He does not hide his views. Christ, he wrote Red Son, which, among other things, drew a cozy moral equivalence between the US and USSR, and took pains to paint Stalin in a fairly positive light (Heck, what’s a million dead Ukrainian peasants, and Zeks, amongst fellow travelers). You find Ultimates 2 illuminating because you agree with its presumptions about the illegitimacy of US power.

“As far as “the American way”, people on any side of the political spectrum know that a nation must by necessity do horrible things and put ideal morality aside to achieve even the loftiest goals, especially in times of war. These heroes are soliders, and they will do what they have to, and will then bear the scars of those acts”

I suppose so – but ignores the fact that presently the US Military, through rules of engagement, use of precision munitions, JAG’s at C&C giving legal advice, etc., does not really throw “ideal morality aside.” They leave that for the Isamic terrorists.

Moreover, extreme steps are taken only if a civilization feels that it existence is sacred enough to preserve, or even exists. The fact that you put American Way in scare or saracsm quotes is telling. It shows that you tactitly reject the ideal of a common American civilization or culture that binds us together that is worth defending. I suppose that puts you in good company though, i.e, Code-Pink, Move-On.Org, New York Times, CNN, the democratic party. Invite them over for a party when a nuke goes of in NY, complain about Bush, and discuss how we really provoked the muslim world and if only we “understood” their grievences we could all life in perfect harmony under sharia law.

“comic books in general, in the last decade or so, have moved far beyond the “grim and gritty” nihilism of the nineties and advanced into a more nuanced exploration on the meaning of heroism in a chaotic world.”

Yep. Your right. Mark Millar’s “Kick-Ass” is a great example of this.

[...] (creator of Fables and Jack of Fables, and frequent writer for DC Comics) has declared his “pledge” to end the Age of Superhero Decadence. Not surprisingly (especially given the nature of internet comment boards,) this topic has sparked [...]

Full Metal Deer Platoon: your logic is kinda broken. The fact that you can name one or two examples on the left who did not support going to war against Germany doesn’t do anything to refute the point that the majority on the right were strong isolationists at best, and pro-Fascist at worst, until we were attacked at Pearl Harbor (and even then, found their way into the war greased not only by the outrage at being attacked but by anti-Japanese racism).

In contrast, the experience from the Spanish Civil War forward of volunteers to fight Fascism in Europe on all fronts — coming, of course, from the left — even before America’s entrance into the wars.

A Jim Treacher sighting. Now if someone would share the posting URL with him …

Oh and Mr. Hudnall, telling Darwyn Cooke that The New Frontier was “very solid work” is, to paraphrase Tarantino, like saying Michaelangelo was a good ceiling painter

I think “The New Frontier” is the perfect example of a work that is mature and yet still heroic.

[...] that any parent could give their child. They couldn’t have been less interested.” – Darwyn Cooke (in comments [...]

Jim Treacher-So all it takes to be a hero is “knowing” that you’re doing the right thing? So, does that make Lenin a hero? Or Hitler? Very few of history’s crimes have been committed by people who stood in the dark at midnight and intoned “I choose evil!” Most of them genuinely thought that they were doing the right thing. That they were so catastrophicly wrong ought to give everyone contemplating what a hero is pause, especially people who have such a simplistic view of heroism. Sadly, it often doesn’t.

I don’t remember saying that’s ALL it takes. But yeah, I was saying that version of Batman is like Hitler. Congratulations.

“One has to wonder if any of what you mentioned is the cause of the failing sales of comic books in general, Marvel and DC’s numbers are steadily declining. Personally, I quit collecting comics after the shop I was getting my pulls from closed its doors earlier this year.”

I don’t know about your local shop, but Marvel and DC’s sales stabilized a few years ago, and have actually increased somewhat since, primarily thanks to an aging customer base with more pocket money to spend on expensive, elaborate reprints of the comics that they read as kids.

What you need to know about the Direct Market — the network of North American comics shops that buy product from publishers on a non-returnable basis — is that these days it’s the almost exclusive domain of 25-35-year-old men who’ve been fans of the superhero genre for at least 10-15 years. By and large, children don’t shop in such places anymore, and they no longer read superhero comics in significant numbers. Why is a long story, which I first detailed here…

http://tcj.com/journalista/zarch200211Ba.html

…and then refined for publication in The Comics Journal #277 in an essay entitled “Suicide Club: How Greed and Stupidity Disemboweled the Comic-Book Industry in the 1990s.”

(As briefly as possible: In the early 1990s multiple actors conspired to convince teenage readers that “hot” comics would increase in collectible value despite print runs in the hundreds of thousands and the encouraging of hoarding. When the kids finally realized that they were being sold a pyramid scheme, they dumped the hobby en masse, leaving the hardcore fans as practically the sole patrons of the Direct Market. For an encore, Marvel bought its own distributor and declared that henceforth it would sell comics to the shops solely through said outlet, upsetting a long-stable apple cart and setting off a frenzy of exclusivity deals and bankruptcies. The end result: In the space of four years, somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of the industry was obliterated. It made for some grim research, I’ll tell you.)

The point is that kids really don’t read this stuff, and the remaining adult audience has become jaded by overfamiliarity with the genre to the point where the comics themselves have become “decadent” — in terms of the incongruous fusing of adult themes into a storyform that can’t really support such things — in order to keep said audience buying the comics. Here’s what I wrote back in 2007:

“I’ve taken to calling this phenomenon ’superhero decadence,’ and it occurs to me that I should define my terms a bit. By ‘decadence’ I don’t mean sexual deviance, but rather ‘jaded but unwilling to move on, with one’s tastes growing more ornate and polluted in the process.’ Readers of modern superhero comics seem to be chasing a cherished moment from childhood without quite understanding that they’re no longer the people capable of enjoying that moment with the same wide-eyed wonder; possessing a more adult outlook, they thus insist on reading modern variants of the superhero comics that they loved as teenagers, but with a point of view more appropriate to The Sopranos than Teen Titans wedged in there as well. The results read like an adult crime drama featuring all the excess sex, violence and a zombie-like attempt at the sophistication of an HBO television series but with a cast composed entirely of professional wrestlers. Would you watch Glengarry Glen Ross if it starred Hulk Hogan and Rowdy Roddy Piper? (Okay, I would too; that would be funny. But you get my point.)”

Link here:
http://tcj.com/journalista/?p=354
Scroll down to the top item in “Comics Culture,” halfway down the page, for the full rant, which began as a response to a particularly nasty bit of pseudo-feminist in-fighting among female comics fans.

Anyway, that’s superhero decadence. My apologies for anyone who follows the comics blogosphere and has heard all of this from me before, but I’ve been pissing in the wind on this subject since 2002 or thereabouts, and it’s always been an uphill struggle getting heard by an insular fan culture that likes things as they are, couldn’t care less about the longterm effects the phenomenon will likely have on the industry and would prefer to write me off as another Comics Journal Elitist. I’ll take any opportunity to make the case for people who’ll actually listen; thank you for doing so.

( I tried to post this once already , the machine responed ” You are posting to fast ” , as if I was multi-posting , which I wasn’t . )
Just for a factual comment , I recallthe Superman comic book messing with the “…and the American way ! ” schtick as long ago as the 70s , when they made it ” the Terran way ” .
I haven’t seen the Superman Returns movie since it was initially out , but since I recall this ” they un-Americanized Supes !!!!! ” thing being brought up at the time , I do believe the context of the line being cuut off in that movie was essentially a joke , more or less underlining the movie Perry White’s grumpiness .
Still , don’t let me interfere with your narrative of victimization !
The liberal media ate my homework ! Boo , hoo , hoo…

Mark Waid and Marcos Martin’s recent Amazing Spider-Man with the Shocker was just what’s missing in comics. But I can’t remember any comics sites writing about it. It’s a shame.

The press covers the death events more than good, quality stories.

Hello, and thank you for realizing the mistakes of the comic industry!

Yes, please help us all forget the movie “Superman Returns.” It was stalker-creepy and shameful, and I was embarrassed to sit in a theatre with my then 11 and 4 year old nephews in that stinker of a movie. Superman was not “super”; he was a mere carricature of a morally weak man. His first mistake was leaving Earth for a 5 year trip to his devastated planet.

This was not a hero. Not even a real man would have left those who love and need him for that long just to satisfy his personal curiosity; and then come back and expect to “have something” afterward? Yuck, I need a shower. Can anybody wipe out my memories of that awful movie?

I suggest a few guidelines for the hero/comic industry:

1. Keep it simple. Some greys are fine, but let’s keep right right and wrong wrong. No more stalkers with x-ray vision!

2. Stop with the time travel. Ditto the interdimensional travel and super beings from other planets; planets with flames shooting out of them like bad nachos; ugh, that’s so dumb. Let’s find a way to permanently kill of Darkseid and shut down that silly “Apokalips” wormhole forever (but PLEASE don’t write more than a page on it, that would just be boring).

3. No more “Elseworlds.” They are simply not satisfying to read or re-read. Plus, it’s too confusing to keep track of it all; so I NEVER buy any “Elseworlds” or alternate time-line issues or series. If it’s a good story, then it can be told within current canon and in the current age, give or take a decade.

4. Keep artistic continuity in ongoing series. Pick some artists and have them do the whole series, even if it must be done in the same title. I’ve sworn off the Superman series’ that have team “A” do part 1, team “B” do part 2, and so forth. It’s too discombobulated. Pick one way to draw Superman (or Batman or whomever) for that story, and STICK TO IT. They don’t change actors in the middle of a movie, why do that in the middle of a comic story?

5. Related to “4″… Reduce the number of ongoing series. If you can’t tell a story in a graphic novel or within the confines of two to four full issues, then you need to consider whether or not there are enough pages in each issue or maybe the story is too complex for the intended media. Maybe a novel would be a better format. Some of us can read, y’know!

6. Simplify the artwork. PUH-LEASE. I always look before buying. If I start seeing too many crazy colors in the same panel, overly-complicated fight scenes, or wacked out equipment of every “Gap color” in the rainbow, it’s not enjoyable; and I will save my money. For example, I’ve NEVER seen purple and green computer equipment in real life. So please don’t do it in the comics.

7. In addition to Darkseid, let’s permanently kill off one long-time badguy. I don’t care who. Pick one. Joker, Riddler, Mxy, Scarecrow. Maybe Luthor or Ra’s! It doesn’t necessarily have to be messy or graphic, and it doesn’t have to be directly at the hand of the “hero”. There are lots of ways to go. You could read any major city’s “Stupid Criminals” hotsheet for great ideas. Here are a few of my own: A maiming followed by a long illness and suffering death would be good, but there are other alternatives. A neck-snapping car crash, death by gangrene from a busted hip slip-and-fall, a nasty drug addict’s OD or long-decline and death, a bloody (or not) gunfight, an explosive or sharp-edged terrorist act.

Hey, that last one would be an interesting juxtaposition! Think about it; the badguy, who’s injured or killed hundreds by himself, gets his own head lopped off due to religious or cultural differences. Let’s get a conversation started!

In any event, it must be a PERMANENT demise! No coming back to life like “Chucky” or “Jason”, so choose the unlucky badguy carefully. Yes, if a badguy buys it PERMANENTLY, I would like this, and I would buy that!

Don’t tell me we’ve already killed off badguys; the so-called “killoffs” in “Dark Night Returns” comic series don’t count; that was too much like an “Elseworlds” thing anyhow.

And don’t tell me that we can’t change canon. It’s time to shake up the industry. And after all, we’ve already modernized Metropolis, killed a Robin and put Batgirl in a wheelchair. I say it’s long past time for one of the badguys to pay. Dearly. Maybe with some agony and lots of wimpering. Or maybe not.

I have a lot more ideas, but this should get some gears turning…

[...] his original essay: …DC’s greatest icon, Superman, one of the handful of fictional characters known throughout [...]

It’s too bad that we have to defend our country against our own countrymen. Does anyone live in reality anymore?

When will someone bring back the moral clarity of the original Superman?

You know, the one who terrorized governors into pardoning wrongly convicted men and used his position as a reporter in the liberal media to attack businessmen who mistreated their employees.

Tom, hey, I just spotted you up there. You might not recognise the name, but suffice to say, we’ve met.

You’re not going to see Waid’s Shocker storyline getting jack all press because…well, it’s just not that interesting, not because it’s got quality writing for a mediocre set-up anybody can stitch together, it’s a throwaway story that can be topped by the next Shocker story by someone with a limitless unrestrained grip on the characters. That is something the BND team simply arent being allowed to do, not because there refusing, or can’t bring themselves to do, but because they can’t because that’s the mandate they’ve been given.

I wouldnt call this a demand for “drama”, as noted above by another, but Spider-Man was ALL ABOUT DRAMA IN THE FIRST PLACE, so essentially, I WANT THE REAL SPIDER-MAN BACK. Not this mind-wiped cowardly child-like cast currently inhabiting the title.

Marvel have made it clear that to evolve ASM’s roster is to end the title and the character…well…havent you considered the possibility that Spider-Man was never intended to last forever?

It’s arguable Ultimate Spider-Man, the best reboot of the last ten years, is where to go with him, taking Peter Parker and making him the young teenage leader/brother figure/soul mate of a rag-tag bunch of hormone-driven kids who all want to make a difference in the world but endlessly trip over one another. USM drives me to tears because it has such an uplifiting, positive spin on the character, even when it’s delving into tragic circumstance. Bendis is a genius for getting Peter “right”. Spidey isnt a loser, he’s a hero and a survivor as both Spider-Man AND Peter Parker.

The day of user-created content is likewise become prevailant. If we don’t get what we want, we’ll just produce it ourselves and ignore the corporate a-holes in power who say we can’t out of some senile authoritive attiude.

I would rather listen to fan-produced Superman audio dramas or read Kevin Cushin’s Spider-Man Crawl-Space online continuation (www.spidermancrawlspace.com) than support the dedicdent mind-wiped retarded supporting cast and central character prominent in Amazing Spider-Man, written by once-limitless writers in embarrasingly limited ways (that said, I love where Superman’s “New Krypton” is going and I feel it’s one of the more uplifiting, spirited D.C titles currently)

Mr. Willingham,
What about when pre-flight Superman would kill somebody by juggling them, thus inducing a heart attack? Or when they would use their reflective skin to target a vial of poison gas back at the bad guy?

You make a valid point, but from the wrong angle, I think.

[...] Hollywood features an article on the death of heroism in comics. This post was filed under Culture, Graphic Novels, Politics   —   Read [...]

Mr. Willingham, could you please clarify something for me? Are you saying that no good story can be told in the super hero genre that focuses on morally gray characters? Also, are you saying that we would be better off if ALL super hero comics conformed to your vision of moral clarity, or just that the kind of cape-and-tights comic you prefer is underrepresented?

Bravo.

I’m glad someone is taking a stand. I’ve enjoyed many of your comics, Mr Willingham, and I hope that Superman and/or Captain America are among those by you that I will enjoy in the future.

Flawed superheroes aren’t a new trope by any means–five thousand years ago Gilgamesh, hero of Uruk, had a nasty habit of forcing himself on everyone else’s wives and daughters, which led to the creation of his sidekick Enkidu. So not much new there. It is, however, sad that the comics industry took the road it did post-9/11. Here’s a movement, fronted by an zillionaire with plans for world domination and his chief henchman (an evil pediatrician!), using and maniupulating young men to die for their dream of slaughtering Jews, homosexuals, atheists, and yes, cartoonists. It seems that many in the biz were more afraid of looking bad to their peers by actually pointing out the bad guys were really weren’t the Americans. Just because one doesn’t like Bush or his party doesn’t mean that the perps of 9/11, Madrid, Bali, Tunis, London, and Mumbai really aren’t supervillians. Falling onto stale ‘grim-n-gritty’ antihero tropes (the US Gov’t is morally equal to whoever they’re fighting) is really just sloth masquerading as principle. It’s okay to call a bad guy a bad guy, folks. No matter who’s in the white house.

Bill:

If you ever write Superman, how can you bring back ‘…and the American way’ without bringing back ambiguity to a character who has no place for it?

With Superman, I don’t think he departed from it, I think it departed from him.

[...] original Starbuck is not impressed with the new narratives. Sounds vaguely familiar to comic book fans. Interesting enough, amid competing claims of naturalism, what people use for [...]

Whoa, a rebuke from the Last Boy on Earth!
Do they still use cash that far in the future?

[...] 6 clued me in to a posting by comic writer Bill Willingham at Big Hollywood. And just today Silver Age Comics pointed to a matching post by the Fortress of Fortitude. Both [...]

Okay. I’ll try and get my comment posted, without the F-bomb this time.

Heros are just as heroic as they ever were, it’s just been shown that uberpatriotism isn’t a good idea. It’s a lead in to bigotry as we see in our every day lives: Two planes crash in NY and suddenly anyone who LOOKS middle eastern is victimised, a school is accidentally blown up by a mutant and suddenly I have Sentinels outside my window.

The Heros havn’t failed you. You have failed *us*. With your greed, racism, sexism, specisim. Is America worth fighting for anymore? More and more I start to wonder “Is Magneto right?”

[...] “superhero decadence” — a term coined by Journalista’s Dirk Deppey — in an editorial on the site Big Hollywood: Folks, we’re smack dab in the midst of the Age of Superhero Decadence. Old fashioned ideals of [...]

How dull would comics be if superheroes all behaved according to the same moral or patriotic code? As a fan, I choose to follow characters based on how they relate to me or how they compel me to learn more about them.

Surely each creator will try to impart a little bit of themselves on any iconic character they get a chance to write. That's a given.

What gives me pause is that Willingham seems to be attempting to blur the lines between patriotism and heroism. Don't get me wrong, patriotism is good, but a smug nationalist attitude that ridicules long time allies like France, is pretty disgusting. If France is such a turn off for conservatives, shouldn't we give them back the Statue of Liberty?

"At least my crass and corrupted Elemental heroes still fought, albeit imperfectly, for the clear good, against the clear evil."

I guess they fought for the "clear(ly) good" Elementals Sex Special that depicts dolphin / human sex. I can's say for sure, but I'm betting Mr. Willingham is a big fan of Ayn Rand…