Superheroes: Still Plenty of Super, But Losing Some of the Hero
by Bill WillinghamJust as all movies aren’t westerns, all comics aren’t superheroes. Far from it. But superheroes are still one of (if not the) dominant genres in the comic book industry, and by far comprise the major output of our two largest American comics publishers, Marvel and DC. More to the point, it’s the comic book genre I want to focus on here.
DC’s greatest icon, Superman, one of the handful of fictional characters known throughout the world, no longer seems to be too proud of America. He still finds occasion to mention he fights for truth and justice, but no longer finishes that famous line with, “…and the American way.” Then again, according to the most recent movie, he’s become a creepy stalker and a deadbeat dad, so maybe not openly linking himself to the American ideal isn’t such a bad thing.
Marvel’s legendary patriot Captain America, in a comic book story published shortly after 9/11 spent a good part of the issue apologizing to the super terrorist he was battling about all of the terrible things America did in its pursuit of the cold war against the Soviets. “(But) we’ve changed. We’ve learned,” he whines. “My people never knew!” Then again, at least ol’ Cap was fighting the bad guy, so maybe there’s still hope.
Except that In another later appearance, in a different title (same company) Captain America willingly goes along with a government cover-up of a incident that resulted in massive civilian casualties. He not only goes along with it, he doesn’t even bat an eye when asked to do so.
Then again Cap’s dead now, so problem solved, right?
Those are but two examples of the slow but steady degradation of the American superhero over the years. The ’super’ is still there, more so than ever, but there seems to be a slow leak in the ‘hero’ part. There’s even a term for it, coined by (I’m not sure who, but it might have been one of two respected comics journalists) either Dirk Deppey or Tom Spurgeon. Folks, we’re smack dab in the midst of the Age of Superhero Decadence. Old fashioned ideals of courage and patriotism, backed by a deep virtue and unshakable code, seem to be… well, old fashioned.
Full disclosure time. I’m at least partially to blame for this steady chipping away of the goodness of our comic book heroes. In my very first comic series Elementals, first published close to thirty years ago, I was eager to update old superhero tropes, making my characters more real, edgier, darker — less heroic and a good deal more vulgar than the (then) current standard. Elementals was one of the first of what was later dubbed the ‘grim and gritty’ movement in comic books. And to complicate my confession, I’m still proud of much of that early work. At least my crass and corrupted Elemental heroes still fought, albeit imperfectly, for the clear good, against the clear evil.
What can I say? When I was young and foolish I was young and foolish. In hindsight I should have realized then what is so obvious today. In any industry, especially one as inbred and insular as the comics world, one excess feeds another. Of course we didn’t think of it as excess. We called it stretching the boundaries. Pushing the envelope. Doing a bigger and better car chase in this one than they did in that one. And every other cliche we could summon to our defense. “If they got away with having their hero accidentally kill his opponent in that book, then we’re going to outdo them by having our guy purposely kill someone in ours!” And so on, until today an onscreen (and quite graphic) disemboweling of a superhero’s opponent is not only allowed, it’s no big thing.
Don’t get me wrong. All is not completely dire in the comic book industry. For the most part superhero stories still involve the good guys battling the bad guys for identifiably good causes. And even in that story mentioned above where Captain America participates in the sinister cover-up, under the pen of the same writer, a few issues later he resurrects a shade of his former self (summons his inner John Wayne if you will) and tells an evil alien invader he’s fighting, “Surrender? Surrender??? You think this letter on my forehead stands for France?” (The letter is an ‘A’ for America, of course.) Good one, Cap.
Along with many others, I’ve come to the conclusion that we’ve gone too far, but not irreversibly so.
So, finally to the point of this note. Borrowing some wisdom from the famous parable of the mote in one fellow’s eye, and the whole beam in another’s, it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to make any call for our industry to clean up its act, until I’ve first cleaned up my own. I’ve already made some progress down that road. In my run writing the Robin series (of Batman fame), I made sure both Batman and Robin were portrayed as good, steadfast heroes, with unshakable personal codes and a firm grasp of their mission. I even got to do a story where Robin parachuted into Afghanistan with a group of very patriotic military superheroes on a full-scale, C130 gunship-supported combat mission. And in my short run on the Shadowpact series I kept to the same standard (but with less success as several story details were editorially imposed).
But ’some’ progress isn’t enough. It’s time to make public a decision I’ve already made in private. I’m going to shamelessly steal a line from Rush Limbaugh, who said, concerning a different matter, “Go ahead and have your recession if you insist, but you’ll have to pardon me if I choose not to participate.” And from now on that’s my position on superhero comics. Go ahead and have your Age of Superhero Decadence, if you insist, but you’ll have to pardon me if I no longer choose to participate.
No more superhero decadence for me. Period. From now on, when I write within the superhero genre I intend to do it right. And if I am ever again privileged to be allowed to write Superman, you can bet your sweet bootie that he’ll find the opportunity to bring back “and the American way,” to his famous credo.
For now, I invite others in my business to follow suit, as their own consciences dictate. We’ll talk more about this later.
As I said above, not all comic stories are about superheroes. Comics are a medium, not a genre. There’s still plenty of room for gray areas, stories of moral ambiguity, and the eternal struggle of imperfect people trying to find their way in a bleak and indifferent world. I plan to continue all of that and more in my Fables series. But for me at least the superhero genre should be different, better, with higher standards, loftier ideals and a more virtuous — more American — point of view.
Call this my mission statement. Or even my pledge.







Subscribe via RSS
Got a Tip?
835 Comments
And if I am ever again privileged to be allowed to write Superman
I don’t know, man. Now that you’ve written this article, that’s a pretty big “if.”
I had no idea of your views beforehand, Mr. Willingham, but I applaud you for taking a stand. You give courage to fellow comic creators like myself who remain “closeted” because of fear of backlash in the industry.
Amen, brother.
I think a lot of comics writers can write heroes because they don’t believe in them anymore or don’t even understand them. There are some creators who seem to take a sick kind of glee making them into depraved loons, or creating left wing super-proxies to spout some kind of puerile version of watered down Chomsky while they beat up right-wing straw men.
The things that made Captain America, Batman, Superman popular for so many years isn’t just their abilities. It’s their moral clarity. For the same reason that Rorschach in Watchmen was popular in his own way. He was supposed to be some kind of crazed loon, yet he was the character who was proven right by the story. He was the one who really got what was going on.
People like the idea of characters who know what they are doing and have a purpose that’s positive. Too much of what left wing writers do is based on doubt, self loathing and a loss of faith in anything. No wonder comics sales are down.
It all started going downhill when The Avengers were handed over to the U.N. and The Justice League of AMERICA got it’s name shortened.
Is it America’s fault Belgium doesn’t produce comic books?
Personally, I enjoyed “Elementals”–a very well done piece of work, you should be proud of it. I agree with you that superheroes should be held to a higher standard as regards what they’re depicted doing. Thankfully, thanks to trade paperbacks and dvd collections, I can still go back and read the silver and bronze age classics whenever I want.
I think the reason The Dark Knight did so well is because it explores the dark side of heroism without having Batman engage the sort of pseudo-edgy thuggery that’s been in fashion for so long.
Batman tries to be the hero, but ends up a fugitive, lurking in shadows, knowing full well that he won’t be rewarded for his fight, but he keeps on fighting nonetheless because it’s the right thing, the heroic thing, to do. Being the “good guy” with only the prospect of praise in the future is easy compared to doing the right thing even though not only will no one appreciate your effort, they will also hate you for it.
@ THOMAS TALIONIS
Oh, but Belgium DOES produce comic books! Haven’t you heard of Tintin? That is but one of many Franco-Belgian comics, the likes of which you can look up on Wikipedia.
I don’t know if it’s already been done, but I’d love to read a story of a hero who has the jaded and decadent peers we’ve grown so used to, and has to fight the temptation to become cynical and uber-cool like them, and then has his commitment to higher ideals vindicated at the end.
Anyone?
I thought all the good guys died out when Dixon left DC, glad to see I’m wrong
Just wanted to say from one conservative comic book lover to another – Thank you Bill Willingham for all of your fantastic work, and for your willingness to let people know where you stand! 4 days in and this site is fantastic!
As a comics fan, who has been kept out of the shop as I work through some economic issues, I’m really glad to read this. Now I know there’s a writer out there that I will intentionally look for when I have the funds and get back to a shop.
The issues Mr. Willingham brings up is a big reason why I avoid, by in large, superhero comics. When I was buying I kept mostly to books in the horror genre. I’d love to see Mr. Willingham take on Hellboy.
Wonderful to see the author of my favorite comics series (“Fables”) on this site… and expressing my own sentiments, re: the decades-long, nihilistic degradation of the superhero adventure genre, so eerily exactly!
Kudos, Mr. Willingham!
Mr. Willingham,
I recently stopped collecting comic books after more than a decade because of reasons that you just mentioned. Heroes are supposed to be heroes. They’re supposed to do the right (tough) things. They’re supposed to best evil.
Nowadays, there’s so much gray it’s as if “black” and “white” never existed. At Marvel, it seems like as if every crossover is supposed to end on a down note. DC? I think the last straw I had with both companies was a meth-head Batman battling his dad or something. I dunno.
I don’t think I’ll ever get back into collecting full-time. However, if there’s an effort to the one-time heroes out of the darkness, I might pick up a trade or two.
Especially if you write Superman. Here’s to truth, justice and the American way.
Maybe the biggest thing that bugs me about the characterization of Captain America as a liberal is how little it makes sense. Think about it: Steve Rogers was a skinny, unhealthy dude who still tried to ENLIST in the US military to fight the Nazis, and agreed to undergo a highly dangerous experimental program just to do his part. So obviously he’s a quasi-pacifist who feels the need to apologize for America. The Marvel Knights post 9/11 relaunch of Cap was promising, but then they turned the reigns over to Chuck Austen.
In a flashback to Steve Rogers getting turned down for enlistment, Austen portrays Steve as an angry, almost unhinged jingoist (why else would he want to ENLIST for God’s sake?) Then Austen retcons Cap getting frozen in the Atlantic trying to stop a Nazi missle as a plot by the US GOVENRMENT!! Now, why would the US waste millions of dollars and their only super-soldier (as an aside, Cap reveals he never considered himself a “soldier”, which we are to infer is because soldiers are bad, and he will never, never kill. Because he’s braver by not killing folks what need killing) by somehow contriving to get Cap frozen in the Atlantic (must be how the government faked 9/11 too)? Because they were worried that when Cap found out about the plans to drop the A-bomb on Japan, he would commit high treason in a time of war and try to stop them. Yes, really.
Over in the Ultimates universe (the version of Cap Bill was referring to with the cover-up and the “Letter on my head stands for”) Cap isn’t liberal — no, he’s an uber-liberal Scotsman’s version of right-winger. Yeah.
Speaking of Mark Millar (writer of the Ultimates) he has got to be the most over-rated writer in comics today. I really dug his Wolverine: Enemy of the State run, until I realized I knew the plot from somewhere: Wolverine was killed and then resurrected by evil mystical ninjas working with terrorist organization Hydra to fight other super-heroes. Chris Claremont, who wrote the X-Men for like 15 years and made then popular related his future plans for the X-Men if he had stayed on the book — and it was the exact same plot. Huh. Oh, and at the end of Millar’s wolverine run, he told a tale of Wolverine in Nazi concentration camp that ham-handedly compared Nazis to post 9/11 America (yes, really) and didn’t have Wolvie flip out, kill all of the Nazis and free the prisoners, just sit there getting shot and not dying apparently just to drive the Commandant crazy. WTF.
I don’t take credit for much, but I do take credit for calling the modern movement in genre comics “superhero decadence.”
Word to whoever wrote the last Superman movie: Superman and his Superwang do not pine over women with bastard children. Or listen to them tell him how it is, with their hips jutted out saucily. The only noise you should be hearing out of bastard-child Lois Lane in Superman’s presence is “slurp slurp slurp.”
I’m just chiming to say it’s nice to know that Bill Willingham is still alive! I loved Elementals ‘back in the day’!
As for the meat of the post, I was buying a lot of TPBs for a few years there, but after DC went around ‘multiculturizing’ much of their characters (Blue Beetle as one example) I just gave up.
This new site is great. In a couple of days of reading, I’ve found a fair number of pet-peeves I’ve had about pop culture in American society sounded out when before there was mostly silence. The state of comic books is one of them.
Getting into the grittier, more ambiguous aspects of real-life society was and is fine for comic books — but it seemed to me the industry forgot why being “stereotypically” patriotic happened in the first place: A democratic, free society — needs ideals.
Without question, the United States of America (and Western civilization) has done bad things both in the world and to its own people. But, history has equally proven – the form of government generated real, tangible, lasting good for its citizens and the world. — And it was the ideals standing above and beyond that form of government that helped it improve – slowly but surely.
“All men are created equal” certainly isn’t how our founding fathers practiced their new form of government – as the legacy of slavery proves. But, it was that ideal that eventually led to the end of slavery and later the fight and success of the Civil Rights Movement.
We don’t need superheros to tell us we still fail to sustain an idealized community. We need to them to remind us the goal is noble and something to be striven for – regardless of the obstacles in our way.
…Superheroes are supposed to depict our better selves — and nudge us to attempt to live up to our better selves.
Video games are the fuel of today’s youth, not comic books, that’s why sales are down. I think the “darker” age of heroes goes to the 80’s when Miller’s “The Dark Night” blew us all away, so it’s not exactly a new trend. GMK, I do agree that the last Superman movie was terrible. However, the notion that the Big Blue Boy Scout would even father an illegitimate kid is the crux of the matter, and I think you’re being a little rude to Lois Lane–she has ALWAYS been the saucy lass, even in the 40’s. I doubt they’re checking out the older, darker comics. Both DC and Marvel have more youth oriented lines that keep things brightly colored and safe for the under-10 set. I’ve read comics for over 30 years myself (gulp) and I much prefer my old stuff (Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans run, anyone? Cockrum X-Men? Wow…I am OLD) to current work (although I stuck with Fables for a few years, Bill), and this past summer’s high gas prices pretty much stopped me dead. ECM–you may not like the “multiculturizing” of some modern heroes, but as a black person, I think it’s kinda cool that the color spectrum of heroes has widened since my youth.
Willingham has done a hell of a job in “Fables,” with a strong moral sense of what it means for good to fight evil in a war, and some of the best Eisner-winning work in comics. If anybody here hasn’t read that series yet, get away from that dang monitor and head for your comic store! The trades are already out up to Number 11.
What’s with all of the ”origin” stories? If I see how the Hulk became the Hulk one more time…. All of the great stories I read as a kid are being overlooked and taken for granted just to keep feeding the same popcorn movies every 3-4 years! Cmon already we know Banner has Gamma radiation!
@ Agent J “I don’t know if it’s already been done, but I’d love to read a story of a hero who has the jaded and decadent peers we’ve grown so used to, and has to fight the temptation to become cynical and uber-cool like them, and then has his commitment to higher ideals vindicated at the end.”
I’d point you two of the best Superman stories written in recent years: Mark Waid & Alex Ross’s “Kingdom Come” and Joe Kelly’s “What’s so Funny about Truth Justice and the American Way”. Both are startling effective responses to the edgy dark antiheroes. Kingdom Come got me back into comics (in a very limited way) 20 years after I stopped buying them with its amazing art and great story. Both take the comic book industry strongly to task for the violence and darkness that piled on in the 90’s.
And I quite like the re-imagining of Captain America in Marvel’s “The Ultimates” (the adult version of the classic Avengers title). That’s the self-critizing Cap you mentioned above… with the great France line. But I took his speech differently than Bill did. Yes Cap acknowledged a bunch of America’s mistakes (real and fictional). But he never backed down from his defense of America. That’s an approach too few conservatives seem to take. In several of the titles he’s basically said “yeah we did slavery, and it was wrong, and we disenfranchised women/minorities, and etc, etc. But we address our mistakes, we get better, and we’ll keep getting better.” The Ultimate Cap while more violent than the general comics version (he carries an M4 with his iconic shield), displays a patriotism straight out of 1944, and his dustups with a delightfully Eurocentric Thor are great.
In a way I’m kind of glad we’ve had the nihilism, because it gives an opportunity to tell truly heroic stories. Silver-age Superman was drowned out by look-alike boyscouts. In this dark era, the character can be a real beacon for truth, justice, and well you know…
i was watching Robot Chicken the other night, they were doing yet another Mr. Rogers parody. It occurred to me that the parodies now out number the originals. Mr. Rogers has been dead for years, and it’s quite possible for a kid to have grown up having seen a hundred vulgar jokes based on the show, and never have seen the real thing.
Something similar has happened in comics. The cynical anti-hero has dominated for twenty years now. The writers and editors need to stop thinking of themselves as clever. this is the biggest cliche going. And you cannot keep attacking the old noble hero concept a generation after it has been forgotten.
my comics collection was scattered to the winds a decade ago. but somehow i managed to hang on to the first year of Elementals. It was a great book. And it seemed written by someone wh wanted to push deeper real world problems on heros, not someone who hated the idea of heros.
years back i remember alex toth saying something very much along the same lines as you. can’t remember where though.
[...] Willingham (of Fables fame) posted this article over at the new blog, Big Hollywood. While his premise certainly is true (that, in an attempt to be [...]
Thank you very much, Mr. Willingham, for your brave piece. I’ll be posting a link to it on my Monitor Duty comics blog.
I remember a Superman comic, post “Our Worlds At War” but not yet reflecting September 11th [for the uninitiated: comics lag far behind events due to the time each stage of creation takes] where Lois and Clark are talking in a theater and Clark openly asks, “Is it really so much about the American Way anymore? Shouldn’t I be about something bigger?” Just one of those dopey questions asked by liberals who can’t be bothered to find out what anyone means by the term.
A mere month later, probably reflecting 9/11, Superman poses on the cover in front of a huge flag, with the words “and the American Way” in huge print! Odd to see a change of heart so fast in the Superman editorial offices. If only the content of DC Comics had reflected a similar change of heart. Alas, it hasn’t.
FYI: I’ll be doing a piece on Monitor Duty about superhero comics and the Bush Administration/War on Terror…hopefully by January 20th.
Mr. Crandall, thank you for the compliment, but I couldn’t imagine any circumstances in which I would be willing to try to write Hellboy. I adore that series too much. Mike Mignola, the creator of Hellboy, needs nothing from me. He’s a phenomenal talent producing a stelar work. My sole contribution to Hellboy is to eagerly pony up my cash for each and every issue of it as they come out — in addition to the wonderful Hellboy lunch boxes, action figures, and so on.
Dirk, I sort of knew it was either you or Tom, but I couldn’t recall who was quoting who, and my web-fu was sadly too inadequate to track down its provenance. Thank you for setting me and the record straight. It’s a lovely term in that it so perfectly describes the problem.
Mister H, it reflects no courage on my part that I happen to be in a situation, through dumb luck mostly, where I can speak openly about my politics, without too much fear of reprisals and career sabotage. You and I both know that isn’t the case with everyone in our business, which perfectly mimics in that respect the situation in Hollywood (though on a more intimate scale).
Thank you. I had given up on comics for the very reasons you detail.
Bill – You’re welcome. I seem to have successfully contributed exactly two catchphrases to the general comics-watchers’ conversation (the other is “boob socks,” to describe what the top halves of female superhero costumes would need in order to achieve that whole “my outfit was painted onto my body” look preferred by the Image Comics generation of artists), and I’m just vain enough to look out for credit.
Conclusion: I have no life whatsoever. Which isn’t exactly rare for comic-book fans, granted…
Thank you, Mr. Willingham. My subscriptions have dwindled down to almost zero. I will certainly look forward to your future works.
It does my heart good to see so many comic fans on here who agree with me. The problem is Post-Modernism in comic books. The influence of post modern thought is why we have the “world of gray full of nothing but anti-heros” approach many comics use. Yeah it was neat the first few times it was used but now it is simply boring.
Bill, I heard that you were going to take over the writing reigns on JSA? That would be a perfect title in which to fulfill your new “mission statement.”
I find it interesting that, in order to espouse the “Captain America’s core values are conservative” nonsense, a commenter insists that Steve Rogers could not be a liberal because he volunteered to fight.
Liberals and centrists were exactly who was volunteering to fight World War II.
Conservatives were busy being America First isolationists.
Thanks for speaking out so eloquently on this, Bill.
As the companies have made their icons more “real” and “edgy” they’ve steadily pulled away from the identities that the mainstream public associated with them. Sales have reflected this. That’s why we talk about market share in our business rather than circulation. It keeps everyone’s mind of the fact that superhero comics, as they are presented today, are finding less and less of an audience while other genres of comics are seeing climbing sales in the book and library market.
You and I both know that there are plenty of comic creators who feel the way we do but are fearful of speaking up as it will adversely affect their career.
Liberals like George Bernard Shaw or David Lloyd George, who were very vocal in their support of Hitler? Fact is that no one from either side of the spectrum, with notable exceptions like Churchill (some might call him conservative, wanted to fight the Nazis & their allies until it was too late. And once the war was unavoidable after Pearl Harbor, Americans from all political stripes were lining up to volunteer. Being in opposition to Nazism doesn’t make on conservative or liberal. It makes one a good American.
Full Metal, yes, I will be writing the JSA starting soon (I’m not entirely sure just at the moment which issue will be my first, and I’m too lazy to walk across the room and look it up), along with my frequent writing partner Matt Sturges. This will indeed be the first test to see if I can hold to my guns. And since JSA is a DC company owned series my only real weapon is the last resort kind. If they insist on imposing too many changes from above, ones that would corrupt my shiny new mission statement, then I’d have to reluctantly walk.
Chuck, it’s good to see you here. One of the best things about this site (and social organizations like Friends of Abe, for another example), is that it provides that all important first step in any cultural reform movement — proof that none of us are as alone as it might have seemed.
conservatism is cause by repressed homosexuality.
you are quite clearly all gay.
I don’t so much have a problem with the article by Mr. Willingham because it does have some credence and serves as a valid counterpoint to alot of the stories going on today. BUT, I am particularly puzzled by some of the replies made to the article.
@ECM- I see nothing wrong with the multiculturizing of comics. In fact, if comics have any intention of keeping their sales afloat maybe they would do better to try and appeal to a wider audience. The big publishers could stand to borrow some cultural ideas from other sects of American society and not cater to white males. And that’s probably my biggest issue with the people who call for a return to the “American way” in comics. It seems they’re usually referring to a return to big, strapping white guys with dazzling smiles.
@Dilmore- I take opposition to your stance that somehow if you’re liberal you’d never do anything for your country. And *gasp* it would be absolute blasphemy for you to join the military. My father served proudly in the US Army for 25 years and is pretty much your standard liberal. Personally, I don’t think comic characters should tread into the cultural wasteland that is conservative vs. liberal unless it was built into their character from the jump. It only divulges us (sadly, in a country that’s supposed to respect the ideas and freedoms of others) into off-base assumptions like the one you made.
@Hutchinson- What are you talking about? I remember that question and it was an honest question to ask. The man had just got done fighting a planetary war. I don’t see the big deal in asking that question. Superman has always been a man of the world and not just America. America doesn’t have to go around doing good and proclaiming “this is of America” every time we do it. We do it just because it’s the right thing to do and that’s what I felt was at the heart of him asking that question. Not some liberal minded person trying to break down the integrity of Superman. Why read something hateful and negative into something that probably wasn’t?
Overall, I just get this idea that if you’re a liberal comics fan you A) Hate America and B) Don’t want your heroes to be heroes
I am neither and I am proudly liberal. I just get positively sick of seeing these broad generalizations on both sides of the fence. I’m sure there are plenty of conservative comic readers who get off on seeing Jamie Reyes as Blue Beetle and the hyper-sexual X-Men by Fraction. I would like to see a move away from this kind of political classification, but people are so gung ho I guess we’ve stopped seeing each other as people and just as labels.
Well, if anyone wants to label me you can just call me a comic reader. Screw the liberal and conservative attachments. Peace.
I’m also tired of the relentless darkness of comic books these days. I’m tired of Marvel slowly destroying the Avengers (I’m starting to believe this is all a five or ten year plan which will end with a rebirth of the team, but only at the cost of a large chunk of their readership) and DC’s constant murder of their young heroes. The nihilism *is* depressing but I don’t think some return to “traditional comic values” is correct either.
There has to be some middle path. I see moments of it in Geoff John’s work, or the gritty heroes with (occasional) hearts of gold found in Ed Brubaker’s work. The hope AND realism of Matt Fraction and Jay Faerber is incredibly inspiring.
There is something between “grim and gritty” and “unrealistic golden age jingoism” and we need to support the creators who provide it.
Sketchball999: Ha! *You* wish.
As far as superheroes go, I haven’t really read any comic books–I’ve stuck to the movie adaptations. a TV show or two and a couple of novels. Still, I thoroughly agree that we have far too many anti-heroes and not enough true heroes around. Even Superman hasn’t fared well. Making him three-dimensional doesn’t require turning him into a whiny liberal who lets himself be dominated by the ultimate feminist nut (yes, I’m talking about Lois). It simply requires fleshing out his character, developing him as a fellow human being, as a *person*. What does he believe in, why does he believe it, what drives him to do what he does, how is it reflected in his personal likes and dislikes and such… These are all relevant issues that we don’t see covered nearly enough, or at least not satisfactorily.
For my two bits, I’d like to say–wouldn’t a guy who immigrated here as a baby from another planet and was raised in the heartland of America by two loving and salt-of-the-earth parents, then ventured out into the world to make a difference, be a paragon of American conservatism and small-town values? Why on Earth would he let himself be basically *enslaved* by a city rife with amorality and corruption, ruled over by a man who abuses the system and pretends to be a savior for the sake of his own gain (Lex Luthor is not a capitalist, he’s a tyrant), and entangle himself with a bitchy and immature woman who constantly botches her assignments and often double-crosses him in pursuit of her obsession with his costumed alter-ego? Why would he do that? Where’s the truth, justice, and American way in that? I don’t see any. It’s as if Superman doesn’t even realize how much of a pawn he is to his own nemesis and the twisted world that allowed such a despicable excuse for a human being to come to power.
This needs to change, ladies and gentlemen. We need to give our heroes back their morality and good sense, and I can think of no-one better to start with than the first and greatest comic-book superhero of all time. What say you?
Great commentary on the state of comic books. I personally have enjoyed this switch from superheroes who are champions towards superheroes who are persons. I think it comes down largely to believability. I know that is anathema to reading a largely fantastic genre (comic books) but alas, I like the feeling that these are regular people who are placed in extraordinary circumstances.
The old fashioned ‘champions of justice’ archetype never really made any sense to me. Spider-Man’s concept of ‘with great power…etc’ hits far closer to home or the X-Men’s persecution paired with social responsibility. I could never get on board with the Justice League or the original Avengers or even really the Fantastic Four. I, speaking for myself, always wondered where the funding for these operations came from and how they were able to retain autonomy from whoever was paying the bills. In some books the questions of funding have been touched on or who the team was beholden too, but it was never a major part of the theme.
That is why one of my favorites was the original Infinity Inc. That team had money problems and an actual boss in the Star Spangled Man. I am not necessarily a fan of grittiness for the sake of grittiness, I liked parts of the Punisher throughout the years but not a whole lot it has the same problem with funding and beholdeness.
I would like to check out your next project Bill, I feel you have a grasp on the ‘reality’ of superheroes. It will be interesting to see how you make them real and good and ‘champions.’ Hopefully it will be excellent. See you in the funny pages!
That is just a bunch of silliness from Willingham. What has really made superheroes more popular in recent years isn’t that they are grim and gritty. What has made them popular is that superheroes are finally being portrayed as human beings, who, as in The Elementals, battle the evil despite their flaws. This is what lends hope to people. It gives the message that they too have the ability to be more than the mistake laden, flaw burdened people that they are, but can gain redemption despite their transgressions and feelings, and become heroic.
I don’t know. Superheroes have been doing the “dark, gritty, edgy” thing for the past 20 years, ever since Dark Knight and Watchmen. And now those kinds of stories can seem as weak and predictable as the old-fashioned upstanding superheroes, especially since a lot of writers seem to automatically equate “dark” with “realistic.” Nowadays, the trend seems to be toward “What kind of story/character will eventually fit into a one and a half hour movie written by Joss Whedon?”
What makes innovation difficult in comics is that the “Big Two” characters are all franchises now. You can’t have awesome, character-defining stories because the characters are already defined, and you can’t change them, because that wouldn’t mesh with the movie in production.
What we need are good new ideas. Watchmen worked because no one had done superheroes in that way before. We need a new kinds of superhero stories, and new ways to tell them. That’s innovation. Sticking in the same ruts for another twenty years: that’s decadence.
I’d highly recommend ‘Atomic Robo’ by Clevinger/Wegener from Red Five comics for some gold old fashioned Nazi-stompin stand up heroing. But I’m a sucker for anything Atomic.
One problem, Criminal Comics, superheroes aren’t more popular in recent years. Modern comic sales are a fraction of the circulation they enjoyed in the 1940s and again in the 1960s. Kids just don’t read comic books anymore, even though they will line up around the block for the movies. Hmmm, a strange paradox, that.
The fact that “dark & gritty” is the most predictable cliche going is much like how being another faceless member of the left/slacker crowd makes you “different” in some miraculous way. Or how the most atrocious CGI is somehow OK, but models or rubbersuits are laugh-worthy to some of toady’s audiences.
Matt Harvey, surely Wonder Woman is the ultimate feminist nut? And Superman went to the big city because that’s where the crime was. Adventures of Farm Boy just doesn’t have the same ring to it. As I stated in an earlier post, though, I think the more old-fashioned superhero tales are still being told, but it’s up to parents to find them, then pry their kid’s eyes from the PSP’s, DS’s and Wii’s. I’m curious of the posters here with kids, how many of the boys (ages what? 5-10?) routinely ask for comic books as opposed to a new video game?
Well I have fissioned off 5 boys, and they never ask to read anything. I make them read comics that I find appropriate, which is few and far between, and then start them on ‘A Princess of Mars’ at about 11. It’s the best I can do, I hope it takes.
I will say that Bruce Timm’s DC universe has done wonders for their abilty to recognize obscure DC comic characters. They are far more conversant in DC than Marvel because of that. And Bruce got it right, as far as characterization goes.
The only Marvel characters they know are the movie ones, and Captain America due to the large collection of old Cap issues I have.
Things started to go down hill for comics after events like the “Crisis” stories in DC, or the “Reborn” in Marvel. Origin stories have been so retconned, that the past doesn’t matter anymore, and the characters can be taken in any direction the writers want without any regard for what’s come before. I also lament the fact that military themed comics are nowhere to be found, and when found are few and far between. There used to be a comic called SpecWar that was published after 9/11, and lasted only 6 issues. Another was a story about GIs in Iraq that took forever to come out and was even harder to find.
To Maatkare:
“surely Wonder Woman is the ultimate feminist nut?”
Nah. Amazons in general may not think much of men, but I’m pretty sure Diana has come to respect them by now (not just Clark himself, either, though they are close friends). She wants to be treated as an equal. Someone like Lois, however, views herself as inherently better than men (and even other women) and will compromise any margin of integrity she has to “get the scoop”.
“And Superman went to the big city because that’s where the crime was. Adventures of Farm Boy just doesn’t have the same ring to it.”
Touche.
I’m not saying that Metropolis isn’t full of problems that need addressing–it clearly is. The problem is that Superman is cast as some kind of divine hero who will cure all our ills for us. He’s frequently compared with Jesus Christ, whom millions of people worship as a savior. (Ironically enough, his original creators were Jewish.) What these people fail to recognize, however, is that there is a real man beneath that image they created, a man who just wants to do his part to make the world a better place. In my opinion, Superman doesn’t deserve the stigma of being cast as the flawless savior–on the contrary, he deserves to be seen as a leader, someone who will guide us and help us to make the world better. He ought to teach us that the power is in our own hands, that each and every one of us can be a hero if we so choose.
“I think the more old-fashioned superhero tales are still being told”
I think so too, and I believe they need to regain their prevalence. Parents showing them to their children, as you suggested, is a good starting point.
No matter what your background, anyone can make a difference–and the power to do so gives us the responsibility to make a positive difference. That’s what superheroes, above all else, should teach us.
Well Bill, the blow-back for speaking your mind is starting. Over at Comic Book Resources they did an article on your above piece, and the comments sections are filled with the standard leftist tolerance for different ideas. Good luck.
IMHO, despite some of the uninformed knocks written above, the current Blue Beetle series has been a shining light among DC’s output. After the new Beetle overcame his rookie learning curve, the series’ portrayal of family unity and simple moral uprightness over the past year have made it a hidden gem on the comic rack.
Naturally DC’s canceled it, so there’ll be none of that peskiness anymore…
“Go ahead and have your Age of Superhero Decadence, if you insist, but you’ll have to pardon me if I no longer choose to participate.
“No more superhero decadence for me. Period. From now on, when I write within the superhero genre I intend to do it right.”
Well, having the likes of Jay Garrick and Alan Scott aeound, your new high-profile assignment makes it rather easy to manage that.
And without the previous writer’s trademark rending of body parts, at that.
But that still only makes you, Chuck Dixon and Beau Smith fighting the good fight. And the combined output of those other two esteemed gentlemen isn’t anywhere near as high-profile as your random Mark Millar or Warren Ellis joint, tacking much harder in precisely the opposite direction.
Add to that what seems to be an absolute bloodlust at the top of the two major companies’ respective editorial heaps, and you have a situation that doesn’t seem likely to lend itself to any serious reversal in the foreseeable future.
Or are there trends inside the industry that those of us relying on the insights of a Rich Johnston or a marvel_b0y aren’t privy to that give one the blue light of hope?
Holy cow some real comic book people are in here…..
But as for characters being real people. I don’t buy comics/go to movies/watch TV to see people who are like me. Because its been the dominant idea in the pop culture
its freaking boring
So you’re swearing off grim and edgy, eh Bill? I applaud you, but I’ll also miss your fine work at DC, as you probably just became persona non grata with this post. DC and Marvel are all about appealing to twenty-something hentai fanboys these days (bat-lesbians, anyone? Hawkgirl and Red Arrow getting it on in the JLA watchtower? Batman doing Black Canary in public?). They haven’t been interested in truth, justice, and the American Way for sometime now. In fact, that last part is something of an embarrassment to them. Garth Ennis is the future of comics, and it’s one reason why comics continues to be a dying industry.
Bill, how can we help support your decision? Are you writing any superhero books now? Or do you have any upcoming superhero books? Let us know!
I stopped reading Marvel a long time ago. To me, it seems that whole universe of characters has gotten darker, less heroic, and morally ambivalent. I started reading DC and it seems there is more good heroic characters and messages there. But, even DC Comics portrays too much “anti-heroism”.
I don’t know the personal ideologies of writers Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns, but I they both are recent writers that write pretty darn good guy vs. bad guy superhero comics. Geoff Johns is really good at it. His “Justice Society of AMERICA” (not just ‘JSA’) is a prime example. The whole premise is older heroes mentoring newer ones, to make “better heroes”. “Green Lantern” is another of Johns’ classic/but updated hero series. I recommend both these titles.
But let us know, Bill. Not to exclude other titles or writers, but I think there are probably a bunch of comic fans out there who long for good/morally positive/American freedom & liberty pursuing comics to buy & read.
Man. I was really hoping Mr. Willingham would respond to my earlier comment.
Political leanings aside, I would like to point out here, (as I also did on the Robot6 blog), there has been one, long-standing superhero that continues to be a shining light and a stalwart of moral certainty: Green Arrow.
@Larry Bernard
You are right Larry. You don’t read superhero comics to read about people who are like you. You are reading about superheroes, and I don’t think any of us are. Personally, I would look awful in spandex, tights of any color, or body suit, no matter what you put on it.
Part of what makes superheroes interesting and relative is that they show us the way. That these people, powers or no, can overcome themselves to be better, to be stronger, and rise above their own flaws to become superheroic. It is a transformative message that has transcended many cultures and across millennia. It is a powerful and joyous message that we can all be better, that we all have the ability to become more than humans, but superhumans.
Was just reading the article, oblivious to the by line, when my ears perked up at “The Elementals” reference. Bill !!! Nice to hear you joined the dark side. (To betray more geekiness, I’m also a big fan of your Dungeons & Dragons and Villains & Vigilantes work.)
Though I haven’t read the new breed of comics lately, it’s distressing to learn that superheroes are going wishy washy. Do the writers realize how difficult it is to explain moral ambiguity to a 5-year old?
Right now my boy is flying his Superman action figure around my head and beating me with the punch-action fists. “Daddy, I’m Superman and you’re the bad guy.” Not, “Daddy, I’m a self-loathing, hypocritical dupe for an imperialist nation, and you’re a misunderstood victim of my country’s destructive foreign policy.”
Comic book storylines don’t have to be simplistic, and characters don’t have to be saints. Quite the contrary. Frank Miller’s Wolverine mini-series got me hooked, and he was one of the original “bad boys”. But writers need to consider the audience.
Superheroes are role models for kids. They inspire future lives. They teach them to be heroes, to dream.
Last week we were at the local Marine Corps base, when my son saw a group of uniformed soldiers prepping their gear for deployment. “Daddy, are those guys superheroes?” “Yes, they are.” He smiled.
@Captain Atom
Relating the popularity of comics to the 40’s and 60’s is just plain silly, for media and culture have changed. Whether for better or worse is not an argument.
I work in a comic store, and I can tell you that when I have a copy of The Ultimates on me, or Powers, or Red Son, or Kingdom Come, or any other comic, people come up to me and want to talk about comics. This isn’t just in the neighborhood of the store, but also in the hotel in which I used to work, high schools across the city, or even waiting in line at the fast food joint. Comics are amazingly popular, so much so that they are not only being used as feeding ground for Hollywood (Congrats on the Fables television show, Mr. Willingham), but comics also continue to gather awards from outside the industry, as well as serious attention from academia.
Comics aren’t considered simply entertainment, anymore. Comics are art! (I hope Mr. Eisner is smiling from heaven about that.)
Superheroes continue to be popular, which is why the Big Two continue to dominate the industry. People love superheroes. In my store alone, the number of subscribers has grown by over 742.5%, and all of them love superheroes.
It is true, however, that comics as an industry is not as strong as they once were, despite recent accolades. However, the reasons for such have very little to do with the popularity of superheroes, but rather with the decisions of people within that industry.
MAT HARVEY & others…why the hate for Lois Lane? I never saw her as thinking she was superior to men specifically…to Clark (who PURPOSELY played the fool, let us not forget) and everyone at the Daily Planet, sure, but unlike Wonder Woman, never embraced as a symbol of women/feminism/whatever. She’s a plot device to get Superman to fly into action and finish the villains once and for all. Superman must appreciate her spirit all these years…after all, if you can throw planets around, you certainly aren’t emasculated by a reporter chick with a big mouth.
IMHO, I don’t think Supes is suffering any sort of stigma in the larger world–whatever is happening in the pages of his umpteen books, he truly still stands for what is best in Superheroing and America. I remember years ago a news report saying more people worldwide could identify Superman than Abraham Lincoln. And while we’re on the subject, please check out the highly entertaining book “Superman vs. Hollywood: How Fiendish Producers, Devious Directors, and Warring Writers Grounded an American Icon” by Jake Rossen, with forward by Mark Millar. The title says it all, although certainly not every director was devious (Richard Donner).
And thanks for anchoring this thread with Alex Ross’ fantastic image of Supes. I’m not ashamed to admit I have a refidgerator magnet of it.
Here’s what bugs me, the idea that “grim and gritty” = Real.
Life can be grim and gritty, but most of the time, it’s all kinds of things. And it really depends on your life. Boring is real. So is happy. So is depressed. Do these states make good stories on their own? No.
What offends me about a lot of comics today is the lack of respect they have for their characters. What a lot of writers are doing is not making them more real. It’s making them more unappealing. It’s robbing them of the qualities that made them popular in the past to generations of people.
And check out some of the negative flap Bill’s getting for what to me seems a fairly reasonable, balanced viewpoint. He’s not trashing the industry, just stating what he thinks would make it better. Like someone who really cares about it.
One thing that sort of made me lose interest in doing comics for awhile was the almost rabid pod-people mentality on the message boards, which is still like that. Political zealots have all but taken over the comics threads and drive away anyone who doesn’t agree with their narrow viewpoints. I don’t think they represent the fans, just the fanatics. But they make comics a place that’s not as fun as it used to be.
Which is sad.
As for the multi-culturalism aspect, I have no problem with it myself. My first comic was Espers, which had a mixed race cast. Some people came up to my face and mocked me for that (this was the 80s) but I have always wanted to write about people with different experiences and from various walks of life.
What I don’t like is when they kill off a character so they can make them a lesbian latina or whatever. I have no problem with characters from all walks of life, I think it makes things more interesting (if they are written well) but tokenism is repugnant.
@Mr. Bill Willingham
After reading the comments here and on Comic Book Resources, I would very much like to invite you, Mr. Willingham, to come to my store, Criminal Records in Atlanta, GA, to debate your position on moral ambiguity and superheroes. I will even have it moderated so it doesn’t get ugly, as people are often passionate about the things they love. Especially comic book fans. This is an interesting topic and is one that I feel as though people would like to hear more about, if the number of comments on this article, here and elsewhere, are any indication.
I appreciate this stand. Comics need more people who think this way.
I have to look at what appears to be a lauding of the “A stands for France” line and wonder if Mr. Willingham gets it, without really getting it. That line encapsulates all that I hate about what Mr. Willingham is ranting about.
Dumbness of the line aside (“why yes, I did think an “A” stood for France, because… I can’t read!”), what a horrible snarky thing for Captain America to say, especially considering he likely fought along thousands of brave French soldiers and citizens who died to help save their country.
But, y’know, it’s fun to make fun of the French and the line sounds cool enough if you don’t think about it too hard, and Ultimate Captain America well, he’s built more in an “Americaaaa F*** YEAH” vein…
Which is symptomatic of the problem we’re talking about here.
For the record, I don’t mind stories where my Black and White heroes are forced to address Greys. In fact, hard choices make for great stories. I just want the integrity of the character to be respected when they do so, and for their hard choices to make sense. Meaningful dark is fine. Interesting dark is fine. Dark for darkness’s sake is not (or for the sake of moralizing or the sake of “kewl” dialogue or the sake of… well, you get the idea.)
maatkare:
By all means, create all the *new* heroes you want of any ethnicity/gender/sexuality/etc. but there is no need to *kill off* existing heroes to make way for multicultural versions that trade on the names of classics that have been around for decades–is this an unreasonable view in your estimation?
sketchball999 – January 10th, 2009 at 11:30 am
conservatism is cause by repressed homosexuality.
you are quite clearly all gay.
Sketch,
According to an article in Discover magazine recently on homosexuality genes in animals, (I have to spend a lot time in airports and I like to read about science – sue me!!). The gene that is associated with homosexuality is actually better stated as a “bisexual” gene. The studies found that the only “gay” animals have that gene and that animals with that gene are as likely to be heterosexual as they are homosexual. Though I only know what I read in the article let me make this counter hypothesis to you.
Conservatism is not produced by the repression of their homosexual nature.
Instead it is the homosexuals who are repressed since obviously they are not engaging in the hetersexual side of their bisexual gene.
But hey maybe one day science can answer this pressing question for the both of us.
Thanks for your insight.
Speaking of homosexuals, I am very much amused to hear gays Christians/Muslims/Jews happily proclaiming themselves as religious. If they are religious and read their holy books as they proclaim, they wouldn’t be gay in the first place, because they know what punishment God has for these abominations!
People are a bunch of hypocrites. If God doesn’t condone homosexuality, why should we humans?
Criminal Comics:
The problem with the overcoming flaws thing… since the 70s its been all comics are rolling out with. Maybe its time to see Heroes who inspire people to be better
Too bad you didn’t have this little epiphany *before* you wrote “War Games” and “War Crimes.”
While time and expense forced me to leave comic collecting behind about 8 years ago, when I left it seemed that with books like Kingdom Come and JLA were signs of a return to the heroism in comics, away from the grim and gritty.
Really, I don’t mind characters with some moral ambiguity, nor to see those with moral clairty (Superman, Cap) challenged with ambiguity. I loved the Byrne story in which Superman was forced to execute the kryptonian villains – not because it made Superman “dark” but because the guilt he felt over that act and the ramifications from that story would in the end reinforce his code. And I like the idea of the recent Civil War story (didn’t read it, so don’t take this as an endorsement of anything beyond the concept) which acknowelges that good men with different views of the world can disagree (in this case whether super-heroes must register with the government).
“Grim and edgy” (or better yet, mature and well written) need not be at odds with a hero with moral fortitude. Rag on Garth Ennis if you must, but Jesse Custer was one of the better heroes of the last 20 years.
[...] says he has had enough of
No offense, but this is completely ridiculous. Like anyone looking to cause a knee jerk reaction you carefully select incidents to support your viewpoint and leave out overwhelming examples to the contrary. You mention a brief, very low point in Cap’s history under the Marvel Knights relaunch, while ignoring the superior and LONGER runs of Mark Waid before it and Ed Brubaker afterwards. Well, not until it comes to his death, anyway. I guess the part where he kills terrorists without apology or remorse would have put a dent in your little rant. You talk about the Superman movie, but ignore the comics altogether, especially, the award-winning All-Star Superman, which was a tribute to all the things you claim are gone. You ignore them because you know they would totally contradict your arguments. Under writers like Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, Geoff Johns, Kurt Busiek and Grant Morrison Superman has remained as true blue as he ever was, but you’re blind to it simply because his catchphrase isn’t a nationalistic and jingolistic enough to suit you. He’s not shoving the superiority of the American way of life down the throats of the world, so how could he possibly still be a hero? Hell, recently he was trying to build a family by adopting a Kryptonian boy. What could be less decadent than that!?!
And when was Tim Drake ever not a true and steadfast hero that your Robin run was something special? He was never anything less under Chuck Dixon (whom I’m very disappointed to see supporting this claptrap), but pointing that out would show you were twisting facts to suit your agenda. Not to mention the first and last issue of your Robin run that I read was the issue where Tim’s father threatened to reveal Bruce Wayne’s identity unless he stays away from Tim. You had Batman and Nightwing, two of the smartest men in the DC Universe not knowing what to do against such a threat, rather than simply point out it was hollow because it would also reveal that Tim was Robin! It’s not that they didn’t humiliate the man by pointing it out to him. They just didn’t realize it! Your writing skills there were as shoddy as your arguments here.
As strange as it may seem to you, this liberal left winger only buys the bright and shiny heroes. I haven’t missed an issue of Captain America since 1983 and am a sucker for everything with a big red “S” on it but have no patience for Wolverine or the mopey Daredevil. I like my guys to always do the right thing and always win, period. Ambiguity and compromises I can get in real life. This being the case, there’s not shortage of books for me to buy from Superman to Cap to Robin to Green Lantern to the JSA to the Lone freaking Ranger, who even in a more brutal reimgining, still maintains his code of not killing. There’s plenty of heroism out there on display, folks.
And you’re liking yourself alot to think that any shades of gray in comics were caused by your work. You can pretty much credit Frank Miller and Christopher Claremont with this. Miller with Dark Knight and Claremont with Wolverine. I doubt one in ten comic book fans or creators could even name a character from Elementals.
Mr. Willingham,
I have long adored your work on Fables and yet am struggling to understand your argument. There seems to be a childish aspect at work on both sides, perhaps that is a stereotype that, for all of the sound and fury, ends up being pathetically evident. I understand that the “dark and gritty” phase of comic book writing was cartoonish. As was the silver age and the Golden age. an excessive counterweight to an excessive burden. It is the task of writing and art to capture something of human experience. Each human lives, necessarily, in their time. In their body and in, sadly more often than not, their mind. Your desire for super heroes to rise above is admirable. However, the reader is meant to believe in them. we are not meant to believe their beliefs, but believe that they exist. That they think and want and hope and breathe- that they live. Superheroes belong to a group- fictional characters- a group as old as lies themselves. As long as there are lies, there lies people. As long as there are people there must be the hopes and self deceptions, the gullibility and righteousness, the difficult decisions and impossible ideals that accompany every breath. If not, you are asking us to empathize with the unbelievable, to hold close the cardboard cut-out, to confuse experience with the desired experience which may, ultimately, be the providence of an escapist genre. Either way, your essay seems not to address the proper function of fiction nor the proper direction of comics, but rather, the proper use of information and propaganda- the proper deployment of beloved icons to achieve a certain end. It is the preoccupation with the end, rather than the love of the means, that leaves me cold and suspicious. Why make things up, if you are so certain?
[...] post info By David Spira Categories: Uncategorized I’m a big fan of the Bill Willingham’s comics. He is a brilliant and talented writer, but this is unbelievable. [...]
Frank, the Discover articles I’ve read regarding the supposed “gay gene” don’t even prove that there is one. They haven’t been able to map it, and also believe its a bit more complicated than one simple, gay or bisexual gene. Also, from the people that I know who are bi, they tend to have leanings towards one gender and eventually have gone down that route.
Ben Sifter, did you get your information from a direct conversation with God? If so, what else were you told?
Mr. Hudnall, sales are down because comics have a lot more competition for the same dollar, video games being the main one. Also, this current trend of supposed decadence is probably more editorially driven than anything else. The comics industry (like many others) tends to adopt a me-too attitude, so if grim and gritty is what they think is hot, they will try and make everything grim and gritty. So to make a generalization blaming these supposed “left wing writers” for dragging down the moral clarity of superheroes is a bit of an oversimplification. Also, what you may read as “doubt, self loathing and loss of faith” may read to others as a character having their moral code tested, and knowing my comics as I do they will almost always persevere. This can almost be considered the Marvel-Tradition. How many times did Ditko and his strict Randian beliefs test Spider-man?
Okay, this social liberal is off to re-read all his copies of All Star Superman.
first,
kudos to breitbart, for putting comic creators on par with other creators from other fields…its about time.
and grats to bill for selling fables to abc (although they are gonna eff it up)
oh, and WorstThingUS, elementals may not be well known, but it did beat out both watchmen and the dark knight to the comic shoppe shelves, and bill does deserve some kudos for doing something no one else was doing (although i could argue that green arrow/green lantern and howard the duck, beat them all)
however…mr willingham….WHAT THE HELL ON YOU ON ABOUT??
you will do what sells
that is how the industry works
oh, and eisner decried the “dark hero” years ago…nice of you to finally catch on
btw, your work on elementals had nothing to do with you being “young and foolish” and everything to do with the attempt by many creators to finally rid themselves of the stifling comics code.
but you seem to want the code reenacted…at least on a personal basis.
thats fine…stifle your own creativity…but dont condemn those that choose not to see things your way.
comics sold the best in the pre ww2 days….millions of copies
these were also the pre code days….heroes killed people…bad guys were allowed to hit the hero and cause injury…cops could be shown as corrupt…etc…
so your theory on what made heroes popular doesnt stand the taste test.
post ww2, super hero comics popularity dropped significantly…what didnt were the crime and horror stories…ec was filled with moral ambiguity and moral turpitude…and teens and young adults ate it up…until the kefauver commission and the code came and killed off the industry
it really took marvel to reinvigorate the industry. sure their heroes had moral clarity…but they were also allowed to show a human side.
but by the 70s, the industry was dying again…basically thanks to what you believe is the best and only way to present the super hero
it took creators like you and mr hudnall to shake off the code and create characters and stories that readers could relate to.
but if you wish to return to those wonderful days of the code…more power to you
i just want good writing, good art (which means no one can ever use rob liefield) and the occasional blood splattered splash page.
and mr hudnall, its great to see when a comic book creator doesnt have a clue about what moore was saying with watchmen and rorshach. “he is the only one that got what was going on” really? a sociopath who thought that world wide nuclear war trumped world wide peace? the reader is left with with a moral quandry for a reason.
Mr Willingham wants to write super hero comics a different way than they are being written today and will continue to do explore “darker” themes in Fables. Sounds okay to me.
Like a comedian that can be funny without dropping f-bombs all the time, I think a writer can write a decent comic book without seeing splattered brains and veins everywhere. Or love his country without it being political.
The market will decide.
If you want to read a comic about a real-life superhero, check this out:
http://www.noenemybutpeacecomic.com
The true story of Sergeant Marco Martinez, told by one of his fellow Marines.
A question for mister Willingham:
n Jsa you could use a character who is very similiar to Captain America: Citizen Steel.
So we could wait for a more patriotic Citizen?
Good to see you put this out. While I am a fan of the occasional gritty and gory, I don’t think this belongs in Superhero books, per se. Garth Ennis while gritty, doesnt’ “get” the underlying values of most of the heroes and as such his work while entertaining is so ruthlessly cynical that you have to read an Archie Comic or some cute manga to get the taste of Garth out of your brain. When I was working in Comics (back when I could afford to), I too put my foot down on a few items but back then for the most part the editor supported me. I think these days , even if Marvel and D.C. with the comics being the tail of the dog rather than the engine of their prosperity, that the Editors are going to be more bottom line oriented and the same group think that keeps the comics similar with similar art styles, will also keep the sort of treatment of its protagonists similar as well. Also the “Obama Demographic” that is overlapping the readership will have things written with that side of the political spectrum as the default. It will be hard to fight, but I wish you good luck.
Scott
Michael, the War Games and War Crimes big event crossovers were just that — big event crossovers — which in that case involved the participation of a dozen writers and editors from the various Batman-related books, including me as the writer of Robin at the time. That massive story, spread over multiple issues of many series, was plotted as a group and then its component parts were spread out over the specific books that specific writers would have to execute. Some of those plot points that fell within the books I had to write did indeed leave a less-than-pleasant taste in my mouth. But I agreed to do it, so I did it. Look at the one issue where Tim Drake (before he once again officially took up the Robin gig) had to fight the hit men alone in the streets and you will see the one happy instance in that project where one of the story elements I contributed also happened to fall within an issue that I got to write.
War Games and War Crimes were a perfect example of art-by-committee, a huge committee in that instance, coming up with the overall story. It’s also one of the jobs that indeed inspired me to reevaluate the sort of comic book stories I wanted to tell. So, basically, Michael, I agree with you.
Worstthingus, at no point in my essay did I say that there wasn’t also good work being produced in the superhero corner of the comic book field. And yes, I did pick and choose two examples among the thousands of possible examples to illustrate my statement. Those examples were apt and on point, because they were among the many incidents that led me to reevaluate my own career and story choices. Providing an exhaustive list of every good, virtue-affirming superhero comic story and every bad, nihilistic one was not the point of my essay and would have made for pretty boring reading. As far as your other points, well, since they seem to be arguing against statements I didn’t actually make, I’ll let them stand uncorrected.
Sergeant Meyer, I’m delighted you found your way over to this site — and this thread. I was considering making your book, No Enemy but Peace, the subject of my next (or one of the next) essay here at Big Hollywood. But of course I have to hold off until my issue arrives, which is dependent on sussing out this Pay Pal system (I am the world’s second worst computer adept). The pages I’ve read so far on your site are terrific. The larger point of my planned essay, in answer to questions all over this site as to when will the true and honest stories of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars be told, and who will tell them, is that, like always, they will be best told by the men and women who fought — your comic being an example of how it’s already starting. The Hollywood mainstream isn’t going to tell the tale (though they keep trying) this time around, because they didn’t go to participate. They didn’t even go to watch. Thank you for producing this story and starting your Machine Gun Bob comics publishing company.
[...] has surely seen the 175-car pile-up that is the Robot 6 comment thread to Bill Willingham’s article on politics and superheroes. (I love how the Superman picture chosen there is the Alex Ross pose [...]
Here’s the interesting thing: Many fans have said much the same to me at conventions. And I routinely tell them that the types of stories they want to see, and the type of heroic clarity they desire, is routinely on display in the Marvel Adventures and the Marvel First Class books.
And fans will flinch back like Van Helsing from the cross and exclaim, “But those are…KID’S books.” And the titles routinely languish in the absolute basement of sales.
Make of that what you will.
PAD
Sorry, that should read “like Dracula from Van Helsing wielding a cross.” Wish this had an edit function.
PAD
@Larry Bernard
I would say that overcoming flaws is being better. The person that overcomes their own flaws is being a better person than they are or know themselves to be.
Also @Larry Bernard
And about flawed superheroes being the only offering since the 70’s, well, I disagree heartily. I strongly recommend Gail Simone’s Wonder Woman, as well as Welcome to Tranquility (wonderful title, it should have gotten more love), and, again, some Green Arrow, for he is one character who will not compromise his sense of morality.
@ Peter David
That’s where I go to get fun adventures in the Marvel line. Well that and the soon-to-be-canceled Spider Girl. It’s funny, a few weeks ago I went into the local comic shop and one of the owners and I were having a discussion on the feel of comics. We talked about kids coming in and not wanting the “kiddie” comics and the amount of adults who do. I brought up the fact that the average kid shouldn’t be snagging some of the big name comics (like say, Batman RIP) because, IMHO, it’s not really an all-ages story. Having two kids of my own, I’ve steered them towards certain titles and storylines because I don’t think that some stuff is appropriate. Take something like Thunderbolts or the Punisher (the in MU nor Max book). Here are a pair of comics that glorify the villain. Do I want my kids rooting for Bullseye to make that killing shot against a rogue Spider-Man? Do they need to see the Punisher attempting to use a rocket-launcher against that crime cartel?
No. No I don’t think so.
I would love to see the Avengers being the group to live up to in the Marvel Universe again. I would love to see Batman be more than just rage under the cowl. I would love to see the return of super-HEROES.
I look forward to Mr. Willingham’s JSA run and hope that others follow in suit. Heck, I hope to be writing comics one day myself and, if so, I’d like to write comics that my kids, or any kids, can sit down, read and enjoy.
It’s interesting to see the defensive reactions from some people on here, and the assumptions being made about what Bill has said in the article. He can defend himself, but I just want to say that I know, as I’m sure he does, too. There are plenty of comics where heroes more or less act like heroes. The issue is: both Marvel and DC have taken their established characters and on more than one occasion made them do things completely out of character the detriment of the that book. It was not a one off story or mini-series. It was a “permanent change”.
As a writer, I like to see characters explored in different ways, I have done it myself. But classic comics heroes, that everyone grew up with, should not suddenly become something they’re not just because some jaded nihilists can’t think of anything else to do with them.
If Garth Ennis, for example, wants to do something like one of his Super Hero bashing comics, I don’t have a problem with that. It’s his idea, his story, his book. It’s the systematic trashing of established characters, who are well loved, which is bugging people. A lot of fans were very offended by what was done to Captain America in Civil War. The idea that he would just give up and let someone kill him is absurd. Or that Green Lantern would become a genocidal maniac (ok, they came up with an explanation that he was possessed, but please).
I won’t speak for Bill here, but I don’t see him saying that it’s off limits to show all heroes as flawed. Flawed isn’t the problem. Stupid is.
Doing a story where a character turns evil, and then it all gets reversed because they were under some spell or whatever, has been done to almost every character. The point is, they were not themselves in those stories.
But when they make a character change “permanent” where it can presumably last for years until the next retcon, that’s where I find it a bad thing. Because they whorishly trumpet it to the media that Superman is dead, Captain America is dead or Batman was killed by his father (ridiculous as it gets), etc.
They’re shouting to the world (hoping for massive sales) that the classic hero is dead. And the average person on the street hears that and thinks its true, even though comics fans know everyone who dies in comics comes back eventually. (including Bucky. I’m waiting for an evil Uncle Ben to show up and tell Peter Parker he’s really a super-villain)
The end result is the feeling that they don’t even believe in their own product anymore. And if you talk to a lot of people behind the scenes in comics, they don’t. Many people in comics are almost ashamed they work there, which is sad. It’s a great medium. People love comics. It’s times comics loved it’s readers and stopped trashing what they love about it.
Hey, publishers can do whatever they want to the characters they own. But as a consumer, I don’t have to support it. And a lot of people were turned away from comics by all the craziness that started in the 90s. A lot of fans I talk to are disgusted with comics as they are now. I’m not, but I think they could be a lot better.
(Yes, Jose, competition is hurting, but I think the price is the biggest factor followed by serious problems with the overall merit of the material.)
(Peter David: They recoil because those books are largely aimed at kids. They want to see the “real” books that way. )
Mr. Willingham, I am a conservative, but, while I wish I could credit your whole argument here, I’m afraid there’s a problem: your work on the War Games crossover, where you were involved in the offing of Stephanie Brown, and Day of Vengeance, where Jean Loring underwent more disgusting character assasination.
Mr. Willingham, for someone who argues that superheroes are losing some of their heroism, I don’t think you’re making much of an impression when you have a record of featuring a tasteless slant against women in your work at DC, and I don’t think telling that you did it because the editors mandated it serves as an excuse. Do I need to point out that you’re not being much better than the heroes you say have lost it if you’re going to wallow in that kind of dreck? If you really didn’t approve of that, you would’ve refrained from any involvement in War Games.
I consider anti-Americanism as much a concern as the next conservative. But I do not concern myself with one subject at the expense of another. If Chomskyism is bad, so is sexism. Saw what the MSM did to Sarah Palin? Well you weren’t doing much better. And if you’re going to put discrimination against women into your books, or even do it at the behest of the editors, then your argument here does not pass muster with me.
Oh, and I think that’s a bit rich coming from someone who wrote the following cynicism against his own readers:
http://www.fabletown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=291
How do I know that you’re not indulging in some kind of feel-good tactic to win over the audience and obscure the lowlier acts you’ve done?
“Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel” — Samuel Johnson
This comment section is unbelieveable. People are actually making gay jokes?! Laughing and using the word gay in the pejorative sense? Are you all still in high school? How you feel about homosexuality is your own business, but there is no need to mock others like a child. Mr Willingham, this is your forum. It does not speak well of you to let people take cheap shots at minority groups here. I was looking forward to your run on JSA before I came here. Now I am quite frankly worried.
That’s all well and good, but… It’s a little too simple, isn’t it? In real life, nobody thinks of him or herself as a bad guy–we’re all good guys in our own life story. So what good do stories of pure good vs pure evil do kids? None. If the heroes aren’t challenged or fallible, they’re not going to learn anything and neither will their readers.
“By all means, create all the *new* heroes you want of any ethnicity/gender/sexuality/etc. but there is no need to *kill off* existing heroes to make way for multicultural versions that trade on the names of classics that have been around for decades–is this an unreasonable view in your estimation?”
ECM, I see your point (Hell, I was pissed when they killed Barry Allen and made Kyle Rayner Green Lantern), but we’re not exactly talking about top-tier heroes being changed, are we? The Atom and Blue Beetle aren’t flagship characters with firm images in the zeitgeist these days. Batwoman hasn’t been seen since what, the 60’s? And since comic book “death”/retirement is extremely flexible, there’s certainly a chance that Ray Palmer and Ted Kord will reappear. Of course, no character is immune from re-imagining, or the subsequent “correction.” Anyone remember that insanely stupid electrified Superman? Went away. And wonder of wonders, Hal Jordan is back.
“In real life, nobody thinks of him or herself as a bad guy…”
Jim, Just because a jihadist thinks he’s doing God’s work by intentionally murdering innocent human beings doesn’t mean that decent people cannot pass moral judgment to say that he’s the bad guy. Hitler thought he was doing great works of good for humanity. Was it wrong to put him in the bad guy category?
It’s not a question of heroes being infallible. Everyone fights their inner demons. It’s a matter of whether they choose to act for good or evil that defines their nature.
Being in the military, I can vouch that we are all imperfect. Some more so than others. But we’ve chosen to fight for the right side.
The problem is when comic book writers have determined that America’s is not the right side, and our heroes – in this case, superheroes – are serving the cause of evil. I think most people on my side of the aisle would just prefer such viewpoints be expressed outside of our favorite classic comic books – and not marketed toward our kids.
Avi Green: So what you’re saying is, coming to a conclusion not to do a certain sort of story anymore isn’t valid, because I didn’t come to that conclusion sooner? Okay then.
Certain story points that were editorially mandated were in fact editorially mandated. That is a fact. You are right though that, in hindsight, I should have considered dropping out of the project once those story points were communicated. My name was listed as writer of those issues and so the lion’s share of any blame falls rightly on me. Then again, nothing in my essay above argues differently.
Unless of course your argument is, only those who’ve never sinned have the right to promise to do better from now on? Do please let me know how that makes any sense.
Or perhaps what you mean is, you agree the War Games event was terrible, especially my part of it, so how dare I decide not to do books like that any longer? Hmmm, okay. Got it.
If something like the War Games project were done today, under similar circumstances, I suspect I would drop the book, rather than tell a story I found personally distasteful. War Games (and its War Crimes follow-up) was the one time I participated in such a big — too many writers, too many editors, all combining to tell one huge story — event and the last time (as many funnybook writers vow after doing it once. Sort of like the first time you try to pet a chained dog. Being dumb enough to try it once might be understood. Doing it a second time is clearly your fault). As a matter of fact, one of the reasons most of the writing crew were invited to do War Games is that those who did the last big Bat crossover had learned their lesson and wouldn’t do it twice. We live. We learn. Sometimes. I told them (DC) about my criticisms — but still decided to finish the stories I had agreed in advance to do.
Part of the reason I decided to make this public declaration public, is to properly mark the date.
As to your contention that I am somehow anti woman? That is simply not so, and proven out time and again in the stories I write. Do feel free to disagree though.
I, too, am getting tired of comic books being commandeered by whiny, spolied little college-brainwashed liberal Emo kids who are so obsessed with their own “issues” that they feel the need to vomit them on to the glossy paper, to more easily force them down our throats.
The whole point is that superheroes AREN’T SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE YOU! They’re supposed to be better and they’re supposed to represent what is best about America or humanity as a whole. There is nothing redeeming in Marvel Comics’ publications anymore and DC seems to be going off the same cliff.
Billy Ray:
Hitler? Really? That’s your argument against the more realistic characterizations of modern comics? “But Hitler was bad”?
Again, I ask what good it is for a comic to be a role model, there, if that is the goal of reducing superheros to flat, good guy archetypes. If your kid doesn’t know that genocide is bad, he’s a sociopath. You should probably take the comic book out of his hands and lock him away in a psychiatric ward somewhere. As for adults, well, we usually need more nuanced stories to stay engaged.
Mister Willingham, I appreciate your enthusiasm for comics’ good old days, but I really doubt that a writer as talented as you could possibly recreate those kind of absurdly silly stories for too very long before you wanted to beat your own head against the keyboard until you bled out your ears. When was the last time you picked up one of the old DC Archive Editions and read a pure good vs pure evil superhero story that an adult would pay money to read, had it been written today? You can’t; they’re crap.
You helped change the industry for a reason. A current state of sentimentality and some reactionary political instincts don’t make your younger self retroactively wrong.
Jim,
You seem to be confusing old 60s style stories with what he’s talking about. People like myself, or Chuck Dixon are talking about being true to the soul of the characters. The point being made is, many depictions of heroes today are not true to the characters intent. In some cases, at all.
Captain America is probably one of the most mishandled characters in comics. But like Superman, a lot of writers can’t seem to get their head around the idea of a character with such a strong moral point of view. Some people think that’s boring or childish. But a good writer knows how to make that interesting.
Witness what Alan Moore did with the three Superman stories he did (and Supreme, while we’re at it). Here’s a writer who’s know as the man who kick started the Grim and Gritty era, yet he showed great love and restraint when handling these characters. He even went on to do books like Tom Strong, another classic type hero.
Good does not have to be corny or lame. Good is a POV, a moral stance.
And Captain America may be capable of doubt, as any human, but what;s the point of the character then if he’s just another moral relativist whiner? That’s not who he is. Jack Kirby is spinning in his grave.
Editors are ultimately responsible for these mistakes. They are assigned a book to keep it within the parameters of what’s its goals are. It shows that these editors today have no idea what they’re doing, they’re just flailing around hoping to sell some books on a controversy.
There’s a reason why I’m more likely to pick up Showcase Presents: Teen Titans or Showcase Presents: Batman and The Outsiders or Showcase Presents: Brave and the Bold. There’s nothing about All-Star Batman and Robin The Boy Wonder that appeals to me. If it appeals to you – great. I’ll stick to reading The Batman Adventures back issues and the Marvel Adventures line. I’ll get my “edgy” fix from Starman.
I would say that Captain America has been one of the best super hero comic books for over 4+ years, since Ed Brubaker took over the reigns along with his incredible writing – it has also featured great artwork, mostly by Steve Epting (and others); I’m not sure any creator has ‘gotten’ Captain America better than Mr Brubaker.
For the non-comic readers on this board, there is a lot of great material being produced today. Go to your local comic shop or friendly boards, such as Comic Geek Speak and you may find something that you like.
To me, the problem with a lot of modern comics isn’t the inclusion, or even the pervasiveness, of “gritty” themes. Real people have flaws, especially those who have power or get drawn into conflicts often enough to hang a long-running series on, so it’s understandable that such themes would predominate. The problem is the reflexive assumption in many writers’ minds that any pretention to traditional morality must be the product of either a diseased mind or bad faith. It’s not clear what some writers think is actually “good,” as opposed to not just being “not-evil,” where evil is usually nationalism or being less than fully accepting of approved victim groups. The result is that the storyline spends most of its time positively wallowing in vice, with no hope except through sexual gratification, the extent of love it’s apparently permissible to show. That sort of thing is why I got tired of series like Preacher, good writing or no.
I never had a taste for traditional superhero comics, so I don’t really have a model for an overall style where I think comics were done “right.” Sandman at least had a vision of something transcendent beyond the grime, which was why I could enjoy it even if I disagreed with some of it morally. And Fables is probably my favorite American comic series of all time, to the extent I actually bought the TPBs even when I had free access to the one of the world’s best comic libraries.
Still, one of the reasons I read a lot more manga than American comics is that over there it’s perfectly acceptable to write storylines, even dark and apocalyptic ones, where the the ultimate message is something like the importance of family.
James Hudnall,
I agree that comics should be true to the soul of the characters. But I didn’t get, from Willingham’s piece, that he was all about staying true to an individual character’s soul. He clearly applied his good vs. evil preference to the entire superhero genre (taking some pains to specify that in the conclusion).
And it’s pretty hard to take that from Willingham, hot on the heels of DC’s “Decisions.” That series gladly ignored everything we knew about characters from prior books for cheap and lazy “surprise” positions, usually so that Willingham could brand a character a Republican. I for one regard that book as an all-time low for DC comics. These are characters who can fly and travel through time. If you want to hear them debate upper income tax rates, you’re really out of ideas.
Airdave: I think we can all agree, wherever we stand on Willingham’s piece, that All Star Batman & Robin is completely atrocious, and I would add that Miller’s treatment of The Spirit was worse still.
Mr. Willingham,
So what I don’t understand, crazy liberal that I am, is why you post you’re posting your comments here, on a conservative site, when this is not really a conservative/liberal issue, but a creative issue that will have agreement and detractors regardless of their political persuasion? (I myself have argued the same as you have, that some heroes may have their doubts and failings, but what makes Superman “Superman” is his unambiguous moral code and his confidence in his values.)
Oh–and I have always considered the removal of “and the American Way” (which was not used in the Fleischer cartoons, so I assume it was added to the TV show in the ’50s as a sop to the Kefauver committee–and I admit I might be wrong about the exact chronology there) as not impugning America, but rather an acknowledgment–as he became more of a galactic hero in the ’60’s through ’80’s–that truth and justice were not parochial attitudes of one country alone, and that the “American way” wasn’t necessarily the right answer for all cultures at all times. Then again, it could have just been the decision of a multi-national corporation who doesn’t want to offend anyone. You never know.
Isn’t fighting for Truth and Justice enough of a moral code? Does Superman need to boost a single political/economic system as well? How about if he fights a neverending battle for truth, justice, and democratic capitalism?
And one more thing (If I can’t quote Columbo on Big Hollywood, where can I?):
Ironically, he main reason I could never pick up Fables is that, after reading the first trade, I had the sense you were just trying to break down the clear moralization of fairy tales in the same way many are trying to break down superheroes (The Wolf is an anti-hero, Prince Charming a fop, etc.) You say that your characters have a moral core, which I didn’t see at all. Have I misread you?
You must be logged in to post a comment.