Single Moms and NAMBLA
by Bob HamerWith a lot of smiles and an occasional out loud laugh, I read Ann Coulter’s latest book “Guilty.” Once again with her no-holds barred writing style she takes on some of America’s most sacred cows. You want controversy? How about a chapter titled, “Victim of a Crime? Thank a Single Mother.” As only Ann can do, she backs up her allegations with numerous, hard-to-refute statistics. Even considering Sir Winston Churchill’s quote, “Statistics are like a drunk with a lamppost: used more for support than illumination,” Ann’s argument is compelling.
I’m not a sociologist, a criminologist, or any other type of “ologist,” but I bring to the table twenty-six years of street experience as a special agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. During my career, I worked organized crime, gangs, terrorism, and child exploitation. I’ve seen society at its best and its worst, and I often viewed it from the inside. Many of my twenty-six years were spent undercover. I have successfully posed as a contract killer, drug dealer, fence, international arms dealer, degenerate gambler, and white collar criminal. But it was my last assignment, playing the role of a pedophile, that opened my eyes to a societal problem going beyond what Ann discusses in her book.
I spent three years infiltrating the North American Man/Boy Love Association. NAMBLA is real and not just some episodic joke on South Park or The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. NAMBLA is an underground network of men who are sexually attracted to boys and seek to justify their attraction.
On December 2, 1978, in response to what some activists claim to have been a witch hunt of twenty-four men arrested for child pornography and the statutory rape of boys, a meeting was held at the Community Church in Boston. About thirty men mobilized that evening and formed NAMBLA.
The express purpose of the organization is to abolish age-of-consent laws and legalize consensual sex between men and boys. In reality, this group, hiding behind the First Amendment, uses the secret meetings as a networking opportunity to reinforce among themselves their criminal passions. I know because I was invited into the inner sanctum. I attended meetings, participated in their pen pal program, wrote for their magazine, and was asked twice to serve on the steering committee, their governing body. Not once during my three-year membership was there any effort to lobby any political figure at any level of government to seek to abolish or even to modify the age-of-consent laws. There was no talk of hiring a paid lobbyist in Washington; there was no organized letter writing campaign; there was no endorsement of candidates. For all intents and purposes these men meet to network with other child molesters on where and how to find and seduce boys. We proved that when an FBI-orchestrated sting operation netted eight members of what one defendant called the group’s “inner circle.”
During my membership I corresponded with approximately 165 members and met face-to-face with about three dozen. The membership ran the socio-economic gamut. I met men with advanced degrees and those who were high school dropouts; Mensa members and the barely literate; married and single; wealthy and destitute. What they all shared was a need and desire to be around like-minded men seeking to legitimize their sexual attraction to boys.
I never met Charles Jaynes, the NAMBLA member convicted of the brutal murder of Jeffrey Curley and now serving a life sentence. He was the exception. All of the men with whom I dealt were “persuasion predators.” They didn’t sneak into homes in the dead of night and abduct sleeping boys from their beds. Their tactics were much more subtle. One member, a former special education teacher, who as a result of our investigation was sentenced to thirty years, admitted to molesting sixty to seventy boys and “grooming” another 200. Like most members, he cherished the opportunity to develop a relationship with a boy, attempting to legitimize that relationship by calling it “boy love” or “intergenerational sex” or “Greek love.” In my discussions and correspondence with these members one thing stood out: They targeted the lonely, the emotionally empty, the hurting boy. Those boys seeking affirmation and attention from a father-figure were especially vulnerable. Grooming was like a courting process. It might begin with a look, then a compliment, a conversation lavishing praise and establishing a common connection, and finally a trust.
I am often asked how we can protect our children. There is no magic formula for identifying a molester. There may be clues, but they are not foolproof. We cannot prove a negative. We can prove a person is a child molester. We cannot prove he is not. But Ann, let me expand on what you have said. I know you have been attacked for your chapter on single mothers and of course, there are exceptions to most rules, but single moms (and married moms and dads) let me give one piece of advice that Ann didn’t render. Based upon my three year affiliation with these child molesters, I observed one thing: Not one boy who came from a home with a strong, loving father figure was successfully targeted by a persuasion predator.
Protection may be that simple…a boy needs a loving father.







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I await the 1st liberal to use this anecdote in support of gay marriage ("If one father is good, two must be better!")
There are reasons that kids from two-parent homes usually fare better emotionally, socially, psychologically, and yes, there are always exceptions. On the whole however, kids are going to take a lot of cues from both parents regarding gender roles, relationships and conflict resolution. They will also have two adults caring for and protecting them.
Kids need and want structure, and they need and want adults' approval. We should all hope our society's kids are getting that structure and approval from the right sources: involved and loving parents.
Not one boy who came from a home with a strong, loving father figure was successfully targeted by a persuasion predator.
Mr. Hamer, bless you for your courage and the work you have done to stop this. Thank you so much.
Thanks for your insight into this group…I wonder why more steps have not been taken to expose them and bring on public outrage? My fear is that as we have seen more things that were once agreed upon as perversion become more accepted in society, this too will gradually be seen in a more tolerant light. And that is a horrifying thought…
Wow, that's a heavy truth. Or a heavy statement, if people want to debate it.
Thanks for all that you've done, Bob. I'm look forward to reading your book.
God bless you, Bob. I accidentally had a son so beautiful that he started to be targeted by gay men at the age of thirteen. (Things are better now that he's twenty.) Gay men are molested by older men and then they, too, become predators of young boys. Gay men approach, groom, and attempt to take the place of a loving father. Luckily my son already had a loving father, so he wasn't available as prey.
Yeah, yeah, not all gay men, et. cetera. But lots of them. Lots. That's why we don't let them be Boy Scouts. Or Catholic priests, any more.
So, if we take the Ann Coulter single mom metric as gospel, does that mean the longer Bristol Palin goes without marrying Levi, the more likely it is that Trip will grow up to be a hooligan or get molested? Seriously, why aren't those two wacky kids married yet, it only takes twenty minutes at the courthouse.
Hmmm, I adore Sarah Palin! Yet I have the same damned response to Bristol's pregnancy as you do. The thing is, Sarah and Todd were married at a courthouse themselves. So it's not like Bristol doesn't know that's an option. I don't get it.
Not every single mom is that way by choice and I really feel for those women. They're fighting such long odds and most cases doing the best they can. I would not begin to judge these women.
As for those who are single moms by choice, I believe they should be made aware of the drawbacks, and not have it sugar-coated for the sake of "political correctness."
I generally agree with you, but must say that when fathers are as involved with Boy Scouts as my experience has shown, there is little to no opportunity for courting by homosexuals. Every meeting attended by my son was chaperoned by at least two or three other parents, both fathers and mothers. Maybe we're now of the generation where we simply cannot trust anyone. What a shame.
Excellent piece, Bob. Must have been the most repulsive undercover duty imaginable. Thanks for your good work.
Very eye opening piece, Bob. Thanks for this, and your service.
Another one of ACLU's causes they champion, no doubt. Sad and complacent we've become.
This made me cry, and made me thankful for my husband who is a strong, loving father. So much pain that these boys experience–needless!
if you want to drag bristol palin into this, i'll just drop the name Frank Marshal Davis.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. Your last line brought tears to my eyes. I am so thankful that my son has a good Daddy and my heart aches for the little boys (and girls) who don't.
"Of course. A father makes all the difference in the world."
–Roy Hobbs
Crash, you are funny! In the biting wit category of funny, that is.
Great article Bob. I'm amazed you could take this for three years… you must have a strong stomach. Thanks for doing what you did! As an attorney, I've met people who did time for these sorts of things and it made me sick (and very, very angry) just talking to them.
Have you read Ann's book? She's not attacking all single moms. Widows and most divorcees are left alone. She is commenting on the fact that more well off women are opting to be mothers without a husband and that it is giving off bad signals to other, maybe not as well off women that if you want a baby you shouldn't let things like a husband or father-figure get in your way.
A family member of mine is a single mom by choice, and for a while we were worried. Thankfully her own father has stepped up to be a strong presence in her son's life. Facts are facts, boys, and girls as well, need a strong male figure around.
Bob, thanks for the column. This has been a problem for years plus the invention of the Internet has made it even worse. And just because some of us don't like to lay it at the doorstep of the single parent home or abusive family home and the decay of the moral character of this country, not to mention the infiltration of the church and schools. It is what it is. But the ultimate responsibility falls on those who prey on our children and those who blindly defend them. If someone is a pedophile they will try to work where the kids are. That NAMBLA group is just a cover for pedophiles and we all know it.
P.S. to HMMMM, Nice cheap shot. glad to see someone here score a p.o.s. political point
I spent 20 years in gay lifestyle and it has been my experience that most of the men have poor relationships with their father and very domineering mothers. It is part biological due to sensitive temperment mixed with unmet needs at home. It is a compensation to fill a void much like alchoholism.
Actually, Bristol said in her interview that she's waiting to get married while she gets her stuff together. You know what, maybe she realizes that teenage shotgun marriages are MORE likely to break up than the normal 50% American heterosexual divorce rate, and doesn't want to deal with that. I'm looking forward to how some in the abstinence only crowd will react to her quote that such a goal is "unrealistic".
Of course, Bristol probably knows in the back of her mind that Mommy and Daddy have the coin to help her pay all of the enormous bills that having a child brings.
It's not a cheap shot. Coulter opened that door with her "single moms are the bane of existence" argument. Bristol Palin happens to be a high profile single mom. Considering Sarah Palin used her kids as political props all the time, Bristol is fair game here.
That being said, Bristol's interview was pretty interesting, and I'll be pretty curious how the righteous right will spin some of what she said.
Thanks for your undercover work, Mr. Hamer. I unfortunately had to learn far too much about pedophiles after discovering my former roommate surfing child porn on my computer. Thankfully, he's in prison now. The only drawback is that I still don't have my computer back–not that I want it anymore. I just don't have the stomach to delve into that world.____And I guess I should point out, no matter how close of a friend recommends someone as a roommate, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS do a background check. Suffice to say that I'm far less trusting of anyone now.
This story is about the problem of pedophilia. He did start out by mentioning Ann Coulter’s book. You brought up Bristol Palin’s name. You may be right about her kid. I don’t know. But the way you put it in here read to me like a cheap shot. After all he didn't say all single mom homes, some of them are successful. But my single family home wasn't successful at keeping me safe and I know of too many others that weren't either. You can read into that what you want.
Sounds like you did God's work. Thanks for your efforts. Society and our country is because of them.
Sounds like you did God's work. Thanks for your efforts. Society and our country is better because of them.
Bristol Palin is a person, not a target.
Why would conservatives spin anything? Leftists tend to go through wild contortions to defend their own. Gloria Steinem and her "one free grope" rule regarding Bill Clinton comes immediately to mind. Conservatives, not so much. I haven't read the interview, and I don't think I will. I'm really not interested in what Bristol Palin has to say—because she's a kid.
This reply post is to this reply and should have been posted here but was posted to your original post. So here it is again in it's proper place.
This story is about the problem of pedophilia. He did start out by mentioning Ann Coulter’s book. You brought up Bristol Palin’s name. You may be right about her kid. I don’t know. But the way you put it in here read like a cheap shot to me. After all he didn't say all single mom homes, some of them are successful. But my single family home wasn't successful at keeping me safe and I know of too many others that weren't either. You can read into that what you want
Nothing can replace the presence of a loving, mature, proper father in a child's life. HOWEVER, plenty of things can replace the presence of a dopey teenaged "father" who didn't pull out in time
Some of those things might, I imagine, include (comparitively) well-off, politically-connected Grandma and Grandpa's cash flow; AND the fact that the Republican party in Alaska and otherwise are so heavily invested in Sarah Palin as a fundraising figure that her and the brood will be WELL taken care of for the forseeable future. After all, you can't have the "new face" of Family-Values-As-A-Wedge-Issue making speeches with "Bristol's Baby Going Hungry!!!" splashed across The Enquirer…
Thank you for your work in smoking out these animals.
Your experience investigating this dreadful thing is enlightening Mr. Hamer. My suspicions confirmed. I'm at the age where I can remember many Mothers raising a child alone who did a credible job – "War Widows." However they possessed a moral fiber lacking in the present generation of shameless hussies.
Hey, "Hmmmmmm" … Bristol Palin is sooo 2008. Can't we move on? She has nothing whatsoever to do with this article. "Trent" should be by any minute now with a cute comment about "Is-rael".
she is only showing the statistical reinforcement of the notion, just like, statistically, more abortion leads to less crime, its a statistical fact (read freakanomics). Now what you do with that information…
It's interesting to hear this side of it…
No. See, the "perversions" you are drawing a (false) parallel to are things like homosexuality and female dominion of her own sexuality. And while female sexual empowerment is definitely linked to gay rights movements, neither is linked to pedophilia, or bestiality, or anything of the sort. See, all of these arenas are about pushing boundaries with what is acceptable for two consenting adults to do in private.
This group, and bestiality fans, and necrophiliacs, and what have you are diametrically opposed to the feminist and gay rights movements. See, this second group is not about pushing what two consenting adults can do together without stigma, it is about pushing RAPE. NAMBLA is a group dedicated to RAPE. Feminism, gay rights groups, ect are dedicated to deepening the fundamental sanctity of CONSENT. Thus, the further gay rights groups and feminist groups become entrenched in society, the harder it will be for a group like NAMBLA to be seen as acceptable.
He's busy cleaning his mom's basement.
Frankly, it wasn't necessary for the author of the post to mention Ann Coulter's book at all, given that its connection to NAMBLA is tangential at best. Too many of the BH entries try to be ominbus rants and seemingly include disparate talking points in order to maintain their conservative rants. It's probably the worst habit of the bloggers here.
Frankly, Ann Coulter's wildly over the top rhetoric over single mothers leaves itself open to "what about single mom Bristol Palin" retorts, which again has absolutely nothing to do with NAMBLA.
But, if we're going to stick to the topic at hand, child molestation doesn't restrict itself to kids in single parent households. My wife is a psychologist, and she has in the past dealt with many children who were molested by stepfathers, uncles, and other male relatives. So, the premise of the post that if you have a great Dad, then your child won't be molested isn't always that way in reality.
Yay for monolithic depictions of minority groups! They're inherently subhuman because they're different from you!
Wow, that's … uh stupid. So we can hold anything done by any leftist against the entire left huh? Like Stalin killing all those people can be held against George Clooney? How about Clinton's overseas money, I guess Obama's foreign policy is hypocritical because of that, right? Of course, Hillary's a hypocrite, claiming to speak for women with Ted Kennedy's driving history… Gee, I see now why you're leftist. It's fun being stupid!
Bob –
Taking this even further – I believe most of our crime and be attributed to the lack of a strong loving father influence. I am sure that gangs exist to try and get that sense of belonging. I am sure that you could write a book on living on the edge in the underbelly.
I have felt too the sense you guys must have for feeling like you have a finger in the hole in the dike – how much crime exists even with our efforts – but on the other hand you should take comfort in knowing there are some boys whose lives would have been shattered but for your efforts.
If your toss these NAMBLA "men" into the general prison populations things would work out for the best, I would predict…
Frankly, it wasn't necessary for you to make any response whatsoever. Yet you still did. Go figure.
By the way, with respect to your final paragraph, no one is arguing that there's a 1:1 correlation with no exceptions. It would be like if I said "Injecting drugs without using sterile needles increases your odds of catching HIV" and you responded with "So the premise of the post is that if you use new needles, you won't get HIV." Hopefully you'll have enough logical reasoning skill to see the fallacy there.
Oh, and because I just can't resist…doesn't your therapist know you fantasize that you've married her?
Mr. Hamer, I would think infiltrating some white-supremacist motorcycle gang, gun/drug-runner group, or a violent separatist/terrorist cell would have been easier to stomach than being among these NAMBLA guys. I would have felt SO dirty after spending time with these awful men. I think ANYONE who would advocate having sex with children – boys OR girls – is just BEYOND creepy. Attention has recently been brought on the criminals who coerce girls and young women – usually from Third World and eastern European countries – into the international sex trade. Like the NAMBLA members, these creeps are their own special form of hackle-raising vileness and depravity.
By his own actions, a pedophile shows his subhumanity.
Uh, Hunter D, you're defending pedophiles. Just FYI.
I meant Queer people.
"On the whole however, kids are going to take a lot of cues from both parents regarding gender roles, relationships and conflict resolution."
But, if that child is gay taking gender cues from straight parents isn't really going to serve them anymore than a straight child taking gender cues from gay parents. Other than that and the opening line, I agree with EVERYTHING in your post. Every child can use two parents.
"this too will gradually be seen in a more tolerant light." There is NO slippery slope to acceptance of pedophilia. It's a myth. NAMBLA is not supported by the gay community at large and never will be.
Wow, you must live in Pedophile Central. Scary. I'm glad we stopped letting gay men become Boy Scout [sic] Leaders and Catholic priests.
Except for the fact that not all gay men are effeminate, nor are all lesbians "butch".
":still living with his mother" … that's old material you used from a month ago in the "Proposition 8" thread.
Vince,
I have no desire to be insulting to you but I can not let pass that you are making an unsubstantiated claim. The fact that 'gay' children exist is far from settled. The causes and reasons behind homosexuality are still being hotly debated. Is it possible that incorrect 'gender cues' could even be part of an explanation?
Please understand that this is in no way an attack on you or on homosexuals but your statement is just not verifiable.
Yeah leave Bristol out of this.
Men who wish to have sexual contact with boys are not gay. They are pedophiles. Homosexual men are attracted to other adult MEN. The ones who are attracted to much younger men are no different than the predatory older straight men who play on young women's daddy issues. Let's not confuse the issue here. There are PLENTY of adult men preying on girls and young women. And as we've seen, there are adult women preying on boys and young men. There is also some evidence to suggest that the majority of male pedophiles who molest boys are self-described heterosexuals, with wives and families. It allows them to hide their sickness.
When we villify the innocent we erode our own morality.
Hunter D,
Way to read KimmyG's mind. I was in no way able to understand so specifically what she was referring to. You are awesome.
Let's try this one: I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100……..
This was a fascinating article. My understanding, though, is that NAMBLA has become less organized and dwindled in numbers over the years, especially as society is more tolerant and/or accepting of adult homosexual relationships. I think these are stories that need to be told/heard, but I'm also put off by how they feed the fires of people's fears. There are so many people that read stuff this subject matter and don't understand that homosexuality and pedophilia are mutally exclusive of each other. But, I guess all you can do is put it out there and people are going to infer what they will.
Thanks for clearing that up! My brother is more sensitive than I am and he turned out straight. Go figure!
Bob —
What do you think? Could another consequence of the failing economy be this: that as a family's finances dwindle, parents — be they couples or single — are going to be forced to take on more jobs; therefore, "not home" for their children. Could the failing economy mean that opportunities for pedophiles might be on the rise?
Megan's Law is a great preventative measure, but perhaps parents will be too exhausted and holding down too many hours to even know who's just moved into the neighborhood? Solutions? Perhaps we'll naturally revert back into "tribes?" That we care for and watch out for… eachother? Could children's lost innocence be the Call to Action? (Sidebar: we've seen this with Nadya Suleman; i.e., that the innocence of her children is what's created an even greater outrage about her actions?)
Or how about this: that the inherent belief held by many, if not, that many human beings are simply "hard-wired" to protect and defend innocent children…could this be a single, strong and constant MOTIVE that might give hope for our society staying civilized to SOME point? But wait a minute: isn't the extreme praise and celebration of children as "innocent" and "pure" one of the great red-flags/hallmarks of pedophiles-in-disguise?
Many thanks for a great article, Bob!
As a Roman Catholic, it did not escape my notice that what was called the "priest pedophile" crisis was actually – when you observed the data on the victims — one of homosexual ephebophilia. The victims tended to be pubescent or just post-pubescent males with the largest part of the data on a bell curve to peak at about 15 to 17 years of age. Also, a disturbingly large majority of the boys had no father living in the home when "Father Bob" took him under his wing. Moms were relieved that their sons had such a "positive" male figure with whom to bond not realizing the nature of Father's interest.
Come on ladies! Why is it so difficult for us to say that 5000 years of history is correct and our puny little 40 year experiment in free love is WRONG? WE NEED OUR DADDIES! WE NEED OUR HUSBANDS.
As a Roman Catholic, it did not escape my notice that what was called the "priest pedophile" crisis was actually – when you observed the data on the victims — one of homosexual ephebophilia. The victims tended to be pubescent or just post-pubescent males with the largest part of the data on a bell curve to peak at about 15 to 17 years of age. Also, a disturbingly large percentage of the boys had no fathers living in the home when "Father Bob" took them under his wing. Moms were relieved that their sons had such a "positive" male figure with whom to bond not realizing the nature of Father's interest.
Come on ladies! Why is it so difficult for us to say that 5000 years of history is correct and our puny little 40 year experiment in free love is WRONG? WE NEED OUR DADDIES! WE NEED OUR HUSBANDS.
I think you're trying to be obtuse, but you are actually not a million miles off. Her situation is not optimal. Her child is likely to be disadvantaged without a father in the house. Maybe the Palins' family situation will provide her with forms of security that most of the children referenced in the article don't have, but who said that single parenthood isn't optimal unless it's Bristol Palin? Parenthood would be easier for me if my four year old argued as simplistically as you do.
Peter, I was replying to HMMM and not to you. If my four year old rebutted my arguments like you did to HMMM, then I might be in trouble. Well said!
The actual BH posting concluded with "Not one boy who came from a home with a strong, loving father figure was successfully targeted by a persuasion predator." If that's not arguing a 1:1 correlation with no exceptions, then it seems to be arguing something fairly close.
Either way, it was an atrociously written article.
Sorry Sarah, but men wishing to have sex with males–even if they are children–are homosexuals. If you look at the percentage of homosexuals in the population and the percentage of boys being mollested vs. girls, you will see that homosexuals are much more likely to mollest than heterosexual males.
a pedophile in my neighborhood zoomed in on single moms with young boys and absent fathers. he molested one boy till he was 13 and then was moving in on the younger brother who was 8. the 13 year old finally told mom and the man is now in prison. but what amazed me was the stupidity of the mother. she let her son go on camping trips, overnites and when he would come over to her home, he would head straight into the boy's bedroom…
how could she not know …
Vince my friend, you just did it again!!! Setting aside whether homosexual behavior is right or wrong, a generation ago that lifestyle was viewed by many (most?) in the same way as those other behaviors are viewed today. Now many (most?) are at the very least tolerant of the lifestyle. How can you say that there can definitively be no 'slippery slope' in connection with what is considered acceptable sexual activity?
In that same breath, why not go back to letting priests get laid? Chastity hasn't always been the rule…
And for what it's worth, the current concept of family is also new. It's not 5000 years old. Not even close. Hell, our definition of lover and marriage are fairly recent too!
Yes, well, officially you're right, of course. But I've been to many gatherings where gay men were present, and after a bit of talking, the vast majority admitted to wanting to seduce straight young boys into their world.
Hunter D, I disagree. Fist of all, you assume to define what I included in perversion (as Krebstar noted), and I do not see, as you stated, 'female sexual empowerment' as a perversion. I do, however, see homosexuality as something that springs from unhealthy circumstances (check out http://www.narth.com/ for more information on that subject), and there was good reasoning to have it labeled taboo in past generations.
Rape is defined as the forcing of sexual activity on an unwilling participant, and currently includes the term 'or incapable of valid consent'. This is an acceptable definition in these current times, but if the moral compass continues to shift, how long before the 'consent' of a child will be enough to justify this perversion? These children, as the author stated, are groomed, and their minds are distorted into believing that this is an acceptable expression of love..all the while it is deeply damaging them. But given the direction the post-modern world is taking us, what a child thinks they want and 'consents' to (and certainly what perverted adults will support) may be seen as 'truth in their mind', and given acceptance where their should be outrage. I have already seen this 'logic' when people defend bestiality, so I know I'm not just being paranoid.
Men who wish to have sexual contact with boys are gay pedophiles. Women who wish to have sexual contact with girls are gay pedophiles. They're not any more or less disgusting than straight pedophiles, but don't try to bury the truth about gay pedophiles.
What does any of this have to do with Hollywood?
You weren't insulting, Krebstar. But 'gay' children come out of all kinds of scenarios. Poster Guillermo (I can't find his post now) purports that male homosexuality (I don't think he says anything of lesbians) "happens" to men with a biological disposition to sensitivity cultivated by overbearing mothers and poor relationships with fathers. While, there are plenty of gay men who have arisen from this scenarios, there are plenty other gay men who have arisen from single father, single mother, healthy Christian-opposite-gender two-parent households, as well as a variety of possibilities in between. That homosexuality's primary existence is due to being socialized, conditioned and/or learned is, well, not of my opinion. But, you're still considering it, which is fine. I'm not going to fault you. We just see it differently.
I believe that we're all born with our own personal set of varying predispositions (related to intelligence, talent, emotions, sexualty, etc) and the environment we grow up in shapes them. That's how we end up the way we do, IMHO.
Sorry for chasing you around this thread Vince. I guess I'm just getting a kick out of your replies.
Mutually exclusive of each other? Meaning that no pedophiles are homosexual? Dude, I get that you're fighting for your team but don't you think you're pushing it a little?
I 'inferred' that these monstrous predators don't do so well where the boys have a strong father figure in the homes. Why did this lead you into a defense of homosexuality?
This a party line blog. "perversion" is a codeword and we all know it. And, I guessed right that she was referring to homosexuality, which is linked to feminism. So my point stands.
Excellent change of subject. What do you think about the actual comment she made?
If there was a slippy slope between social acceptance of healthy, adult homosexual relationships and pedophilia, how is that NAMBLA's power and numbers have dwindled and not gained momentum?
Bob Hamer ~
When did you spend these three years undercover with NAMBLA? I'm really curious. NAMBLA is such a joke of an organization. I had never even heard about it until I became an adult in the mid-to-late 90's. Even then, it was a lame.
Okay, I'll rescind my hope that you had logical reasoning skill.
I also think you missed the all-important "persuasion" aspect of the "persuasion predator." There are other types of predators, which can attack all types of people. But generally speaking, it is true that you can only persuade someone to become a victim if there is some kind of hurt in his/her life that you exploit, and there are few (if any) hurts more painful to a young boy than the abandonment of his father.
Any student of human nature ought to be able to see this.
I first heard of NAMBLA a generation ago while watching the Phil Donahue show. Must have been about '79. I had no idea they were still around. They've certainly not been effective as a lobbying force.
Recall that things have been both straighter and more decadent than they are today (ancient Rome, for example).
The only lifestyles that are more acceptable today than 30 years ago, that I can think of anyway, are homosexual couples (or families with homosexual parents) and single parent families. I don't see a slippery slope problem; maybe I'm not looking in the right place?
I gathered that
But then, I'm not liberal so I'm able to use common sense, plus I don't have to interpret everything through a prism of racism/sexism/anti-me-ism or whatnot.
Similar to what AvantiBev said, it's not like the 60s generation was the first generation in the history of mankind to "experiment." There's a reason that traditions become tradition. Because they work. They've withstood the test of time.
Pedophilia has just about as much to do with homosexuality as it does heterosexuality.
If you will pardon the diversion from the topic at hand, I would like to respond to the quote given by Hmmm. Bristol is saying that abstinence is "unrealistic?" I'm not quite sure that I'm following. I have not read the interview so I am going to extrapolate. Please correct me if I am mistaken. If Bristol is saying that the idea of abstinence or teaching abstinence effectively is unrealistic then this shows her immaturity.
It reminds me of my little brother. When my mother asked him to clean his disaster area of a room he responded with the same type of sentiment. Him cleaning his room was not unrealistic. It was only unrealistic to him because he didn't want to give the effort to clean it. …
…It is the same for abstinence. For Bristol (if she in fact did say it was unrealistic) to say that it is unrealistic to practice abstinence is just her trying to justify her own lack of self control. Yes, abstinence requires a great deal of self control, but it is certainly not impossible, only difficult. I would pose, though, that the same biological forces that cause it to be difficult today caused it to be difficult hundreds of years ago so I don't see why today should be any different.
I'm not saying this as a person who can remember when it wasn't cool to be a teen and pregnant. I'm only 22. But I just wanted to comment on that (I am part of the 'abstinence only' and the 'righteous right' crowd affectionately mentioned on this thread). I agree with the person who said they didn't listen to her because she was just a kid. That is entirely correct. And the above quoted statement gives wordy evidence of that fact.
You're right about our differing views, but you stated your viewpoint in such an adult manner that I hope I get a chance to read many more of your posts. Regardless of any differences in belief we may have you can be sure that you have a respectful acquaintance on the other end of the internet. Thanks for the reply!
[...] Here is an important story from Big Hollywood about NAMBLA — The National Man-Boy Love Association and “persuasion preda…. [...]
I was raised by a single mother and I was never raped by a pedophile. WOOOO for anecdotal evidence!
You may be right. I still submit that homosexuality is viewed by many in the way you describe it. As a healthy, alternative lifestyle. It wasn't viewed that way a generation ago. Is all the evidence in or is society more accepting of what was once considered deviant? That's my point.
Again, I don't have statistics and specific knowledge. You might be right. Are you saying that heterosexual pedophilia (and, of course, we now use that word to describe what used to be called pederasty, right?) and homosexual pedophilia occur at the same rate?
Now, if you're brother had been biologically designed through a billion years of (possibly guided) evolution to make his room messy as his prime directive, then your parallel…well, it would still be a straw man.
Humans are designed to have sex. That is the biological meaning of life. To reproduce, a lot. That's why it feels so good. Simply saying "Don't" will not override a billion years of instinct. Especially because the overly promiscuous sexual activities of many youths is a symptom, not a sickness in and of itself. These kids are acting out, so saying "don't" REALLY won't work in this context.
I am not sure that I agree with either your reasoning or your conclusion. Nor am I certain that children are born gay, become gay, or a combination thereof. But that's a wonderful set of arguments which should be ongoing and empirically verified. I have a much simpler thought. I don't care why these "men" want to have or succeed in having sex with boys. These are children who are being sexually and emotionally exploited. That means I strongly oppose these adults' sexual activity whether it's boys, girls, puppies or kittens. It's wrong, It's evil. And it deserves neither therapy nor tolerance nor lengthy debate on root causes, but the severest punishment that the law allows. I should also point out that consent is not the issue. it is informed consent which is the issue. Children are not capable of informed consent, and that is why we have multiple laws to protect them from harm.
You're right. I used the wrong phrase. Informed consent is the issue.
That said, these men should be studied. Not so that we can fix them, but rather so that we can prevent the next generation of men who might be susceptible to this sickness from ever hurting a child.
This is Just a thought… I decided to sign up for a profile. Forgive the confusion (and they wouldn't let me choose the name "Just a thought…").
I was not implying that that we are not chemically designed (or evolved or whatever) to procreate. I was simply saying that her comment was showing her immaturity. It is possible to have self control over that chemical reaction. People have chemical urges to do many things but it is possible to resist. She was just giving an excuse because she didn't have the self control (or didn't want it). Either way, to say it is simply "unrealistic" is simply an immature statement.
This is the same tactic gays use to try and normalize their immoral, perverted behavior. NAMBLA has been doing the same. With the libs, aclu, and immoral democRATS, these demons will eventually tire out wuaay, no backbone people to aceept this as normal and ok and will be seeing laws trying to be passed for man.boy marriage sonn thereafter. Think this is impossibe? gays did the same thing when they were looked on as sick and perverted and now most think of it as normal. NOT.
How in the hell do you go from Pedophilia to Bristol Palin in this same thread? Regardless of how you feel about Sarah, Bristol is still a kid. The fact that she's had to endure the scorn & ridicule from the media cesspool, even though she owned up to her mistake, is beyond bad behavior. These #&^(s should be ashamed – how far they've sunk..
The first time I heard about this Nambla garbage was on Howard Stern. I thought it was schtick until O'reilly brought it up. Joe, I don't know how you survived amongst these miscreants without putting them out of their misery. Glad you tried to do something. Wrong is wrong, no matter how many excuses you have. In every case!
So glad that people like Ann Coulter have the guts to speak (write) the TRUTH about the underpinnings of the devolution of America.
NARTH? Are you kidding me? Why don't you just link to Stormfront?
Vince, when you redefine the terms you don't need to change the laws, nor do you need to belong to an organization to help you reach goals now easily reached.
Truthfully, most man/boy predators are not , technically speaking, pedophiles. A pedophile is attracted to a PRE-adolescent child.
Most of NAMBLA's supporter's are actually Ephebophiles – those attracted to adolescents .
These are men interested in 13-17 yo boys.
When 13 yo girls are turning up pregnant and the fathers are often over 21, and NO ONE CARES ,do you really think NAMBLA has lost?
If the courts don't care when an adult man impregnates a 13 yo girl, do you think they even notice that another adult male is teaching sex to a 13 yo boy ?
Your 13 yo child can go get std treatment, birth control, and an abortion without your knowledge or consent – because they have the 'right' to their sex life.
Who do you think managed that ?
NAMBLA and their counterparts across the gender attraction aisle have won.
Our children have lost.
You can't really compare to 'hundreds of years ago' because people didn't wait as long as they do today to get married. It wasn't uncommon for women to be married while in their early teens. Abstinence until marriage isn't so hard in those circumstances.
Bristol is immature because she's young. I'm sure she's seeing lots of sexual behavior among her peers and when she says abstinence is unrealistic it's probably just a reflection of what she's seeing and hearing. I remember the same thing when I was in high school.
Abstinence is still something we should encourage, but it would certainly be easier if society didn't always tell us that we should be "realistic" and automatically jump to teaching the kids about birth control and abortion because we assume that's what they're going to do. If we didn't have the "free love" generation pushing promiscuous sex, and the "Girls Gone Wild" culture, it would be a heck of a lot easier to keep kids grounded in a good moral upbringing. Right now, it's an uphill battle all the way.
I see in this discussion again and again the purposeful incorrect use of the term pedophilia to describe what NAMBLA members are. If a victim is post pubescent or adolescent (as are a substantial percetnage of them) they are by definition not victims of pedophiles but pederasts who are in fact homosexuals.
Pedophilia is an attraction to asexual children (prepubescent) of either sex. NAMBLA members are not interested in this, they want fully functioning boys. The majority of molestations in the priesthood for example were also pederasty not pedophilia. Insofar as there are "good" gays, NAMBLA members are not them. But they are in fact homosexual or at the very least bisexual.
Until the proper understanding of these terms is used and homsexuals admit that there are true perverts in their ranks as there are in every stripe of sexuality, then these discussions will be at their heart fatally flawed.
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