American Islam?
by Bosch Fawstin
Here was Barack Obama in Turkey this week:
“We will convey,” said Barack Obama to the Turkish Parliament Monday, “our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country.”
Robert Spencer has his say on that here, and I’ve written about Western Muslims and the idea of ”American Islam” in my book, “ProPiganda: Drawing the Line Against Jihad“:
American Islam?
A big part of the self-reputation of many Muslims living in the West, mainly those who were born and raised here, is that they’re good and decent human beings by virtue of Islam. But in reality, these “Muslims” reject Islamic values and embrace Western ones, whether they admit it to themselves or not. They have the luxury to credit Islam without having to suffer under Islam, under its life-suffocating Sharia Law. And their version of Islam is sometimes fancifully referred to as “American Islam,” as if there exists such an entity apart from Islam itself.
This is the kind of dangerous nonsense that allows Islam into our culture as if it were just another part of the great American melting pot. [At this moment, I can't help but think of just one of the many threats in the Koran, one promising that pots of scalding water will be poured over the heads of Infidels who will suffer in hell for all eternity for not believing Mohammed's lies. Ch. 44: verse 43.]
These Muslims in name only have been naturally edified by a culture that is completely foreign to the one they came from. But they did not consciously decide to reject Islamic values and embrace Western ones. The process was implicit – it happened naturally when they were exposed to Western, i.e., pro-life, values. They and we fail to realize that a good Muslim, by our standards, is a bad Muslim by Islamic standards. Western Muslims have to appreciate the stark difference between Western values and Islamic values and stop pretending that they’re one and the same. It’s simply not true. And one of the dangers that this poses for us in our defense against jihad is that objectively good human beings who identify themselves as Muslim give Islam a good face, a good name, one far better than it deserves. This gives us a false impression of what we’re facing, with just another excuse not to face it.
Email this to a friend | Print |
Share on Facebook
| Tweet this
| 
Follow Us on Twitter
Subscribe via RSS
Got a Tip?
120 Comments
Most western Christians don't practice orthodox Christianity. What's your point (besides extreme xenophobia and racism)?
I suppose there's a blessing inside that curse. I know a few Muslims. They are all very Americanized, and none have expressed sympathy with the jihadi cause. One of my friends who is from Iran (her father's first name is Muslim, and he's still there) has been openly hostile to the jihadis. I realize it only takes a few radicals to cause deadly problems, but at least we can look at the overall picture and say that most Muslims in America are fairly mainstream and civil, unlike much of Europe. But you're definitely right that we must not allow that to lull us into a false sense of security.
[...] American Islam? Here was Barack Obama in Turkey this week: “We will convey,” said Barack Obama to the Turkish Parliament Monday, “our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country.” [...]
"They and we fail to realize that a good Muslim, by our standards, is a bad Muslim by Islamic standards."
So true. It is a blindness that never ceases to amaze me.
There is a co-worker I am on good terms with at my job. We chew the fat by the coffee machine, exchange friendly debate e-mails, and we've even gone to lunch once or twice just to get out. I am a born-again Christian, he is a Muslim.
During one of our discussions on the Hadith- a subject that I am next to ignorant on- I once asked him about a line in it that states that the believer in Allah will slaughter the Jew, blood will run like a river, blah, blah, blah. I asked him if he was a good Muslim, because if so I will warn my many Jewish co-workers to be on their guardm or if he was a bad Muslim and will let them live.
He never answered me. That was about two years ago.
The point is that Islam in it's true state is a bloody and oppressive faith. What we have here in the states is as one person called it: "McIslam".
Our Western mindset is has been emasculated. The West- thanks to our universities, and media- has taken our resolve out by the knees. Young people spit on their freedoms, and bit the hand of the country that feeds them. We mock patriots, and we celebrate subversives.
Which leaves the door wide open for "good" Muslims (i.e., the bad ones) to come in, and slowly force sharia on an already ideologically broken society. …Just look at England.
America MUST stand against Islam. Not Muslims. But Islam. Our nation was founded on certain core principles that are antithetical to Islam. Which is why were are the world's superpower, and much of the Islamic world is still in the 7th century.
Good post.
(Sorry for the typos.)
What a completely absurd comment. Nice straw man you got there.
This is not really about Islam; we have peacefully co-existed with these folk for many centuries- indeed we have been their friends. No, this is about a narrow band of extreme Islam, Wahabbism, the return of the 12 Imam, and the practice of Sharia law.
These are relatively recent phenomenon that the House of Saud activley promotes- until their kingdom is threatened. But it is also why Obama bowed; with his Islamic background (remember he thought the US had 57 states; that is the Islamic states…oops!) he was acknowledging Fahd as the keeper of the faith.
The muslims in this country have learned better and are quite content..
Can anyone provide specific examples of how the Islamic faith has "done so much over the centuries to shape the world?"
I can't think of any.
What a completely absurd comment, antifacist. Nice straw man you got there.
They say that Muslims invented algebra…
How about 3,000 dead and a big hole in our Pentagon on 9-11-01….Theres an example you can start with!
If by "over the centuries" he means "fourteen centuries ago". Medieval Muslims preserved ancient texts on science and philosophy while medieval Christians were destroying them. But I'm not entirely convinced that was a result of the directives of Islam as much as the character of the Arabic culture of the time.
Of course, now that I think of it, he said "shape the world," not "improve the world." The invasions of the Ottoman Empire did a lot to shape Byzantium and Eastern Europe.
Islam had a Golden Age in the Medieval period when Christianity was "dark". But Christianity had a Reformation and Islam, in the form of Wahabbism, had a reverse Reformation. Instead of building on the Islam of the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, the Wahabbis stopped progress cold.
watched obama stand there and talk about america's racist past in front of turks. was he born without a sense of irony, or did he lose it in some sort of accident?
i've tired a few times to start an illustrated biography of the prophet along the lines of zinn's cartoon history of the united states. would use sale and payne and spencer as sources. but it's a beast of a task.
How can his comments be racist? Islam is not an ethnicity, it's a religion… You could argue Xenophobia, but racism is right out.
Besides, if you're an "anti-fascist", you should be against Islam, too. That religion is pretty damn fascist, if you ask me. "Convert or die" does not leave much wiggle room…
Exactly. We need to pray for an Islamic Reformation. (Well, okay, personally I'm praying for conversion to the faith of Jesus Christ, but temporally speaking, a Muslim Martin Luther would be welcome)
Er, I should have said "ten centuries ago", as Growltiger clarifies below. Sorry, brain fart.
“We will convey,” said Barack Obama to the Turkish Parliament Monday, “our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country.”
Obama is a phuqin joke. I’d like this affirmative action president to tell me what contributions islam has made to humanity over the last 1000 years other than inventing the homicide vest.
Obama is a despicable groveling historically illiterate quisling. This guy should be running a YMCA not the greatest nation in the history of the world. How do we gut such wretched craven political prostitutes? By having a stupid citizenry.
Definitely true. Though they are by far the worst offenders, there is another problem with jihadist thinking that affects more than just the Wahabbis. There is no exegesis in Islam, unlike most world religions. A religion can hold true to its core theology while recognizing that certain writings were creatures of their time and now do more harm than good. That is not the nature of Islam in general, and Wahabbism in particular.
Americanized Muslims have learned from living in a nation of freedom and wealth that it is possible to believe that Allah is God without also believing that Islam must wipe out or subjugate all other religions and peoples. Wealthy Muslims have embraced Wahabbism, but the fact is that outside of the west, most jihadist Muslims live in poverty and deprivation, so to them the world is not much different from the world of Mohammed himself. Their desire to slit the throats of all non-Muslims is derived from the same primitive conditions which motivated their prophet. No matter how unrealistic that view may be today, to them it's logical survival. And there are damned few imams, prophets, writers, intellectuals, ayatollahs or others to tell them otherwise.
Obama is a Muslim. No Christian would ever make a comment like the one above or that America is no longer Christian nation. Christianity is the basis for America. Read what our forefathers wrote. It is there for you to see-open your eyes America! We have been lied to by a deceitful man.
the muslims should be congratulated for not immediately burning the libraries in the CHRISTIAN cities they over ran. but that's about it.
ottoman turkey was the greatest slave empire the world has ever seen. the tendency to apologize for and excuse it is just creepy.
We may wish to defer to the Armenians for the answer to that questions.
garden variety muslim would be a step up from the insano christian church he really went to.
Darwish wrote about this in her one of her books. The Muslims she met in America were very different from the ones she was surrounded by when she grew up in Egypt and when she went back there to visit. American life had softened the religion to a degree where American muslims were assimilating and turning their backs on the destructive elements in their own religious teachings.
However, she also wrote later in the book about how current PC trends have promoted anti-assimilation that keeps muslims from Americanizing keeping them from turning their backs on those same destructive elements, and Saudi Wahhabist Imams have come into the states to take up duties in mosques both keeping newer muslims from Americanizing and assimilating and reaching out to bring those who had "strayed" from the Islamic teachings back to the fold. That is dangerous, and we risk seeing our friends and neighbors turn into potential enemies under our noses.
Sure, now find me some examples of mobs of Jewish people in 1935 out in the street chanting that they were going to destroy Europe if all the countries didn't set up some rabbinical courts, or decapitating people on film because they were non-believers, and how about those times when Orthodox synagogues started sending suicide bombers into Reform ones because they "tainted the word" and of course when they started flying planes into buildings to kill thousands of people that they didn't like. Take all the time you need…
Because while the anti-Semitic nonsense of the Germans was just that, nonsense, all you have to do is turn on the TV or pick up a paper to see the facts about how "good Muslims" treat people that don't fall in line with their ideas and beliefs.
I love how someone who is named 'antifascist' makes a comment apparently supporting a religion that is the -single- religion on the planet that amounts to pure and total fascism. -All- versions of Christianity offer freedom at the foundation. There is no freedom offered by Islam, only endless servitude in an attempt to appease an angry god who shows 'mercy' by only destroying enemies of Islam.
Knee-jerk name calling. What else is new?
You misunderstand me. I wasn't crediting the Ottoman Turks, I was condemning them.
well done as usual, Hawk… the problem lies mostly in three things: it's newness (Mohammed was 6th century) it's relationship with the Jewish state (not good!) and the crushing poverty and authoritarianism. This can be dealt with; however capitulation (accepting Sharia as a legitimate law) is not gonna work…
I think Darwish has a strong handle on current affairs. We've all talked about the danger of PC combined with anti-assimilation before. In this case, Darwish is the up-close and personal expert. Makes perfect sense. And I have noticed that the younger the American Muslim, the more fundamentalist. Which dovetails with PC and anti-assimilation along with the wussiness of mainstream Christians in the Council of Churches. Who's going to defend a religion doesn't seem to stand for much of anything except a general oatmeal concoction of world peace and love with no rules and no will to survive?
John 10:10 tells us that "the thief(devil) comes but to steal, kill, and destroy." That identifies the source of someone's thinking and actions, no matter what religion they claim to be. Those types of individuals can be found in all religions including mine, Christianity. There are scriptures in the Old Testament that have striking similarities to portions of the Koran.
The Bible is a mirror of the heart, as I assume other holy books are. A person can find permission there to justify however they want to live their life. To "love others as you love yourself" seems to be the best course of action because we know that the source is God. Unfortunately not everyone is drawing from that source.
As is amply demonstrated by the Shia/Sunni conflict. We pretty much resolved the Catholic/Protestant warfare (outside of Ireland) five hundred years ago. The Shia/Sunni warfare is alive and well, and wreaking havoc with the middle east with or without our presence.
Educate yourself, troll.
Seriously, what do you read?
Mr Obama is trying to sell the world a 'kinder, gentler', idealized United States–and doing a poor job of it. As he did during his campaign about himself, he's trying to create a image of the US that isn't accurate. He's all smoke and mirrors. IMO, the US would have been better served if he had been an advisor in another president's administration.
If we, hypothetically, took away the label "religion" from Islam and were to replace the ethnicity of the bulk of the world's Muslims with Caucasians, but kept the practices, philosophy, and geopolitical acts in tact, how would the world feel about Islam?
By their own doctrine, Islamic states merge religion and politics. They lack a central leader to define and determine the official cannon. So basically, it is an ideology that blends religion with a fascist and supremacist political mechanism.
Just imagine a group of educated whites who ran around the U.S.A, subjugating women, calling for the death of Jews, beheading innocents, murdering gays and inciting violence over cartoons and movies. Do you think the world would rally to "understand" this group's POV? Would our country give a rat's ass about how these people felt about us?
What do you believe"orthodox Christianity" to be? Please elaborate before making such declaritives.
and the fear of all 9th graders that goes with it!
"They say that Muslims invented algebra"…
and the fear of all 9th graders that goes with it!
now, if we can only do the left's dream and drive cars powered solely by our own sense of self esteem we can say adios! to that whole lot…
sorry, was skimming a bunch of comments, and turned on you.
What country would that be…Indonesia????
It's not bigotry to criticize a bad idea, if it is a bad idea. If you don't think something is a bad idea, then that's another matter. But to accuse a critic of being a bigot is just a way to deflect criticism instead of rebutting it.
Bereanman, don't go there. That claim makes us look as bad as the CFR paranoids. He may not be very authentic in his Christianity, and I agree that he is deceitful, but he is not a Muslim. I'm sure he enjoys a few strips of bacon with his eggs, he's educating his daughters, let's Michelle go shopping by herself, has a good chianti with his pasta, hasn't been to Mecca, doesn't obey the call of the muezzin, and peppers his speech with "er…um….you know' instead of "all praise be unto Allah and Mohammed his prophet". C'mon man, you're better than that.
I was waiting for someone to call that out. Well played!
The 7 words liberals will use to attack any argument with a conservative by Dennis Pragger:
Xenophobic
Homophobic
Sexist
Racist
Bigoted
Intolerant
Islamophobic
"Just look at England"
It isn't just England, it's all of Eurabia. With an increasing birthrate of Muslim immigrants and a declining birthrate among white Europeans, it will be a short time before Europe is part of the Caliphate.
Olbermann's Rules for Radicals # 11: "When facts and logic fail, compare conservatives and libertarians to Nazis."
This is the last refuge of a progressive, and a sure sign they have lost the argument.
Weren't there some enlightened muslims in Spain that were overthrown by the fundamentlists? Wasn't that how they were eventually thrown out? Sorry my history on that is a little weak.
Some have given muslims credit for the number “zero”, ironically this is somewhat correct but not in respect to mathematics. Muslims have done Zero towards benefiting humanity for well over a millennia; they still treat their women like animals and behave like primitive barbarians. Just today Somali muslims hijacked a US vessel, but the Americans regained control. Phuq yeah; give the crew medals despite the fact they didn’t kill all the pirates. Back to the zero, it was “created” in India and stolen by the islamists just as they stole lands throughout the middle east and converted by the sword. It is a culture of thievery, deception and depravity.
American Armenians are surely spitting on this swine for a president; obama undoubtedly is completely ignorant of the fact that the Turks committed genocide against the Armenians and here he is praising them just as he praised the Germans while dressing down America.
I detest this pig.
It's a bigger problem – namely, the hundreds of millions of Moslems who at worst aid and abet them, and at best do not speak out against them. The band is not as narrow as you think.
And, we've never really co-existed with this people. We've been in "our" western values countries, they in theirs. It's now when they've begun to move to countries with western values do the two value systems truly come into conflict. And, those values are exacerbated by the hatred of western culture in western institutions – namely, the universities – which fans the flames of Wahabbi thought.
And, Obamas bow — disgraceful. Obama's President of the United States first and foremost. Wonder if he'll bow to the Pope as the keeper of the Christian faith (you know, with his Christian background)? And, correct me if I'm wrong, Fahd is not a religious figure – he's a King. It was a first rate bit of ass-kissing to those who would destroy Western values in a minute
And you don't see people flying planes into buildings in the name of "orthodox" Christianity (what the heck do you even mean by that — Eastern Orthodox, evangelical?). To the degree that there are homicidal individuals in Christianity, they are roundly condemned by their brethren. In Islam, you get a street named after you, or a holiday created in your honor, or a chapter in a book for 3-6 year olds about what to be when you get older.
Take off your Christian/America-hatin' glasses, bro.
Arabs got credit by some for inventing the Zero; it was invented in India.
It's not. India gets the credit. 2 of my posts in regard to this have been removed, including one regarding the Turks genocide committed against the Armenians. Is the filter software here from an Islamic Crapistan?
Way to not respond to Golani. No one's scapegoating Islam as the root of our problems (name a source). But, only college-educated fellers like yourself are denying that the tradition which spawns 99% of the world's terrorist acts poses no threat whatsoever (but that rather, WE'RE the threat — you sound like our President — We're the threat we've been so afraid of).
There is definitely something screwy going on with this new automatically collapsed reply setup BH is using now. I just got a reply notification from Intense debate and the reply to my post isn't anywhere to be found. Calling IT, IT please pick up the white courtesy phone!
we do not diagree with your take. It is a bigger problem and has been exacerbated by the very things you say. Fahd is a huge figure to Islam; it's a lineage thing and they are big on that… essentially though, we agree…
Since I have expressed my appreciation for the comics you are creating that will tackle heroes and villains in a refreshingly direct way that is largely absent from anything in the major books for 40 years, I feel also compelled to state that I don't subscribe to the belief that all of Islam is necessarily bad. If people can practice Scientology, Voodoo and any number of other religions, they can practice Islam. I'm just all for calling behavior evil when it is evil and identifying the religion of the perp when it is the reason for the behavior.
This is seriously frightening. It's like a parody of what rational America thinks of wingnut conservatives. Gave me chills
As they say in Spain, caca del toro.
Did the Jews blow up buildings killing 3,000 people? Did the Jews declare jihad on Germany? Did they issue a fatwa on Von Hindenberg?
Thanks, Golani, for saving me the trouble of having to respond to this dhimwitted troll (they seem to be multiplying like cockroaches lately!).
You took the words right out of my mouth.
I take issue with your statistics, Bobbo- better to make that 99.9% of the world's terrorist acts.
And what, pray tell, should we do about the MILLIONS of fervent active AND "passive" supporters of Bin Laden?
Are you aware of the fact that, in Europe at least, upwards of 40% of Muslims fully support the use of terror tactics against the "infidels"?!
In Muslim countries, the percentage of admirers and "wannbes" is even HIGHER!
It is most decidedly NOT, as you so ignorantly claim, "an extreme offshoot breed of Islam" that is actively promoting AND CARRYING OUT terrorist attacks the world over.
Islam is NOT even remotely "the religion of peace", it is rather "the religion of PIECES" (e.g., body parts strewn across the landscape after being blown to smithereens by legions of cowardly, venal and LUNATIC homicide bombers, and car bombs specifically detonated to cause maximum CIVILIAN casualties).
I strongly suggest that you BEGIN your education by reading the articles (from numerous sources worldwide- including MUSLIM sources!) on the following website:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
Are there any left to ask?
I thought the Turks had slaughtered them all…
[...] American Islam? by Bosch Fawstin Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Weekend: CHAVEZ CALLS ON OBAMA TO FOLLOW PATH OF SOCIALISM: don’t worry H…President Elect Barack Obama’s relatives and friends celebrate his victory.Sex With Presidents Makes Politics FunObama Reassures Countries on U.S. Debt – NYTimes.com [...]
I think that was the plan. Unfortunately for the Turks, they left a few witnesses.
Thanks for the response everyone, especially to those who really get it and have no patience for the pc bs of it all.
To those who are saying that we're up against an extreme interpretation of Islam, I agree. But it's Mohammed's interpretation. Since the founder of Islam was a "Muslim extremist", then are the passive Muslims really Muslims?
space commando,
I do appreciate your support, but if you can find any good in a belief system that sanctions the murder of those who do don't submit to it, ask yourself why the hell you'd want to. That simple fact obliterates any "good" that Islam claims to have, and that "good" is only used as a weapon to fool its enemies to take them unawares. In the end, Islam was one man's rationalization for his evil, tragically adopted as a way of life by an entire culture. As Ernest Renan wrote:
"Muslims are the first victims of Islam…….To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him." Islam's good for nothing, its Muslims are another story. Let me go even further to make my point:
Do you subscribe to the belief that not all of Nazism was necessarily bad?
I question the "Christianity" of said church.
As has been pointed out, by many people better than I could the problem isn't just the "specific evil doers" but the entire ideology that allows them to do these things, what is that ideology? Islam.
Say you have a small percentage of Muslims that are the active "evil doers", they're out there doing evil, as anyone can plainly see. Now say an equally small percentage of Muslims are "reformers" that really do want to live in peace and harmony and all that, and will even put their necks on the line (literally) by condemning "radicalism" in not only English (or Dutch, or German or what have you) but in Arabic, publicly. The real problem is the vast majority residing in the so-called middle, now while they may not undertake terrorist attacks, they also don't speak out against them; they're the ones that while they won't kill an Infidel themselves, but they understand how a father would do an "honor killing" on his daughter; they're the ones that say they are tolerant but at the same time see nothing wrong with denying rights to their own women; they say they love democracy and freedom, but at the same time have no problem with agreeing that cartoonists should be put to death for "defaming Islam" either.
So he should say how good Islam is? Which parts? The ones where they mutilate young girls? The parts where they stone rape victims to death for the crime of being raped? The parts where they demand the death of anyone that dares leave their religion? The parts that allow them to discriminate against non-Muslims simply because they're non-Muslim? Because Sharia law is hardly "radical" thinking in Islam, but that doesn't make it any less wrong.
Islam isn't just a religion, not the way Westerners define it. It's a religion, a political ideology, and a legal code all rolled into one. And none of the component parts have changed in a significant form from something that an 7th century Arabian warlord would both understand and impose on a population, because that's exactly what it is.
Seemed an obvious thing to me.
But now I need to go back to plotting ways to dominate the world economic system and bankrupt countries whose names end in vowels…
I am curious. What exactly did you find frightening? I could understand disagree with the author's position, but being scared by it?
They named algebra (I think most of it came from India – technology and knowledge traveled far even back then), algorithm, alcohol and lots of stars beginning with al-. They did very well for a while, and any great civilization is going to have a legacy. But the modern world was built by Western, Christian civilization from late antiquity to the 20th century, for a whole host of reasons. The Chinese invented everything, but they did nothing with it. And I think that´s all for the better. Others failed so badly, they have become like sinkholes for Western ideas, including the worst ones (communism did most of its damage outside of the West and the distinguishing characteristic of the Nazis are not the atrocities and mass murder, but that they are the one famous examples of a complete break with civilization in the heart of the West).
I keep hearing that but I am not sure which texts the medieval Christians destroyed and who exactly preserved them. I would look closely into that before believing it. There is a lot of fashion in historical writing and the medieval world has gotten a bad rep because of that. Ibn Khaldun has written of the willful destruction of ancient Persian texts during the arab conquest – ordered for religious reasons – so they were not above doing that. In any case, ancient texts at the time did not contain anything deserving of the name science. The technological advances made in the middle ages in Europe (mechanical clocks, optical instruments etc) laid the foundation for Western success.
Were the Middle Ages really that dark, at least after 1000? How exactly was Christianity "dark"? Compared to what? I´m no historian but I have learned enough to doubt this view. Just like the Roman Republic and Empire and the British Empire, the Middle Ages have become a caricature.
It is pointless to parse Obama´s statement for any historical truth. There are two factors at work here.
First, Obama has no real foreign-policy ambitions (a couple of woolly leftist dogmas from the 1970s aside). The left is focused on the domestic front (accumulating power, changing the culture). They will use foreign policy as a distraction or a stick to beat their opponents with but their concern about war or oppressed peoples is fleeting. However, to implement his domestic agenda, Obama must avoid getting into trouble abroad. So he will kill terrorists but suck up to their sponsors, ignore problems but bash the old, pre-Obama America – whaever works for him
Obama will spend capital – that would be OUR capital – to avoid getting bogged down in foreign affairs in the short term.
Second, narcissist that he is, Obama cannot resist to use the occasion for self-aggrandizement at our expense. All the unsolicited apologies and unrequited concessions are no way to represent our country abroad. As diplomacy, they are unprofessional. Self-flagellation is never attractive and the anti-American will feel vindicated in his judgement.
But Obama is not apologizing for anything he did. Obama is not giving anything away that is his. And he won´t pay for his legacy.
Smart move if he were running for UN secretary general, but what´s in it for us?
How exactly does this illiterate think Islam has shaped this country other than 9/11?
Depends, if the Final Stage involves a One World Government then campaigning to run it makes sense.
Do you subscribe to the belief that not all of Nazism was necessarily bad? I do not. Point well taken.
its Muslims are another story. If a good man calls himself a Muslim, then that's what he is to me. If a man commits a crime (any of the several that have been documented, from beatings to murder, to mass murder) in the name of Islam, then that man is an evil pig and his faith is evil as well. But I feel the same about the recent murders of Protestant police and soldiers in Northern Ireland, killed in the name of national unity and Catholicism. And I am an American of Irish Catholic descent. You are what you say you are to me until your actions prove you otherwise. This is not to say that I have a problem with fighting our enemies with every available means. If the enemy hides in a Mosque or uses humans as shields, and the only way to defeat him is to kill him there then it is fair to do so.
I am very much looking forward to "The Infidel" and will enjoy your depictions of the defeat of jihadis. I respect the firmness of your opinion even when I don't share it.
I believe "The Dark Ages" has now been politically corrected to the "Early Middle Ages". I still prefer "Dark Ages" because it irks me when the politically correct bozos get their way (childish I know). I believe "The Dark Ages" was called "dark" because not much came out of western civ. during that time. This was post Greek, post Roman both of whom created great works of art, buildings and innovation. Romans built on Greek, of course, but when Roman rule collapsed, the "barbarians" moved in. (Romans called all non Romans "barbarians"). Interestingly enough the barbarians weren't "at the gate", the barbarians were inside the gate, the Romans becoming too lazy or prosperous to do the work of the empire. Sound familiar? "Doing the work Americans won't do"?
Romans had running water, central heat, art, medicine, literature — etc. The "Early Middle Ages" (nee Dark Ages) had none of those, indeed forgot most of what the Romans knew. Basically they started all over again.
Yes, Christianity went dark. I don't know what else you call burning witches and heretics, demanding believers follow a rigid dogma. A good read about the 11th century is "The Physician" by Noah Gordon about a Christian barber who wanted to become a physician (they were mostly Jews and Arabs) and,
in order to study medicine, had to pretend to be a Jew (Islam would not let Christians in their schools) and travel to Persia (I believe) where he studied under Ibn Sina.
During this time Islam was flourishing. But Christianity grew out of its dark ages and Islam returned.
This is a good point. I admit that I was working from a general understanding rather than a specific one (I'm a hobbyist historian), and my perception of that aspect of medieval history may well be what amounts to an urban myth. However, I do have a friend who is a professor of medieval history, so I'll have to grill him the on this the next time I see him.
He's not going to hear you Attmay – the point's been raised and re-raised. He has his head too far up his own ideology. He vilifies Bush even thought Bush said "Islam is not the enemy." He lauds Obama FOR saying "Islam is not the enemy." Never met a straw man he didn't like.
"Attacking the religion will only make matters worse. Its gasoline on the fire. Obama is right. He is doing the right thing. He SHOULD say how good Islam is, and then he should send missles to take out Bin Laden the very second we get the coordinates." In our government, who's done anything else?
I say go back to the source material. Line up the Gospel of the New Testament with the Qur'an and the Hadith and compare. Then decide which teachings are more incendiary to their followers. If you were to follow the word as laid down in those teachings, which man is more likely to go out and behave reprehensibly to his fellows?
I realize that that doesn't mean he will just for having read the word of his holy teachings, but if one believes that the central tenants of his faith are outlined in his holy book and he ought to follow them as laid down, then which one is more likely to lead a man to a life of violent, anti-social behavior?
The way I see it: an American Muslim have the right to practice his/her religion peacefully in America, but the American Muslims do not have the right to impose Islam on Americans, through education, electoral means and public policy. I do not wanted to see any sharia law to become a public and judicial policy in America, just because we have American citizens who are Muslims. It does against the concept of religious liberty in America, keeping politics and religion separate, and keeping traditional American values intact. After all, I wanted my right to enjoy my Sam Adams beer*, my Virginia baked ham*, my dog*, my rock music* and my hot-looking babe in America, no amount of Islamic sharia law from Arabia or wherever is going to deny me that! Or yours, for that matter. (* – these are "haram" in Islam.)
I only wish there are American Muslims can read up and understand how this country came to be from the beginning and why liberty matter the most, rather than to prod everyone to submit to one religion from Arabia. The Founding Fathers understood the dangers of imposing the power of religion over the people (which is why we have no national religion in the first place). Fareed Zakaria should have read the books on the whole American Revolution history (before, during and after) with more depth before he wrote that high-minded, globalization-praising book, The Post-American World.
The Muslims in America may have learned better and content, as you said, however, in their minds, Islam always come first before America and the US Constitution. You give them an inch, they can take it a mile and before long, sharia law would be enshrined above the U.S. Constitution. How? Pandering to Islamic interest groups. Education. Electoral means. Public policy.
And who's going to help them to accomplish all these within four years?
You know, the One who bowed down to the King of Saudi Arabia last week?
A professor of medieval history… well, I can´t compete with that
It is true (as far as I have read) that in terms of living standards, literacy, war and so on, the centuries right after the fall of Western Rome were pretty grim. It also coincided with a cold period which ended I think circa 1000. No, wait. We´re not supposed to mention that the climate has changed before.
wway to go Mr Rob… Zakaria is a fool in love with his own worldview and the arrogance that only a Newsweek scribe can have. We fight for the right to eat steaks, drink beer, drive 'vettes watch football and chase girls… God help anyone who interferes with that- the great Parker/Stone anthem from 'Team America' sums that all up. In the Sandbox the natives(guys) are just enamored of the US way of life and ape us with every turn; one of the reasons the Iraqi military has turned around so fast is they learned to channel the American 'cool', the battle rattle and swagger of the finest people in th eworld… watch the news clips and see the Iraqi troops and their near-perfect imitation of US Marines… so, it's not the people that is the problem. The problem, as you so adroitly pointed out is their nominal 'leaders'- and sadly, ours as well…
Don't forget rabid misogyny.
No what's really simple is their belief system is what motives them to act on it. You can't separate the two. It's like saying Brownshirts were bad, but Nazism itself is no threat because it's "just a belief system" that the Brownshirts believed in. It doesn't wash.
When someone says his beliefs cause him to think about killing you, but he just hasn't gotten around to it yet, that's something you think you should just let be?
To attack or defend oneself against individuals, groups or nations…such are battles that should be waged with arms.
To attack or defend oneself against books, ideas, systems of law, religions, beliefs…. these are arguments of the mind that should be resolved (to whatever degree such debates are ever resolved) with words and letters.
To confuse and deliberately miscegenate these distinctly different types of battle… is profoundly UN-American.
I have no problem with a "Global War Against Islam"… provided its a war like the debates being fault right here.
As a principal (and a very traditional American principal at that) there should be no shooting war against "Islam", and we should only fight against individuals and states that seek to do us harm.
Something. SOMETHING! PC dovetails perfectly with Sharia by being willing to surrender to it.
He's just spam-babbling now Lawhawk, I've given up on trying to debate with him. We're the new Thought Police, un-American, yadda yadda, because we actually attempt to find and understand the root causes of Islamic violence instead of just attacking it when it manifests itself.
But remember, we're the "reactionaries" in this argument. Give me a break.
I yield to your brilliant analysis. I shall never again disagree with someone so obviously more intelligent and persuasive than I. And I mean never. Starting right now.
Yep!
Bit of an unhinged lunatic, aren't you? Muslims wanted sharia law because they wanted a religious code of laws that is the opposite of Western law codes and the likes. It's a religious cultural thing. Since you're not a Muslim, it doesn't benefit you, unless you convert by mistake or by chance (like getting a date from FindaPersianwife.com)
Saudi Arabia, Iran and few other Islamic countries are the biggest advocate$ of pushing/promoting sharia law system in other countries, including Britain, Europe and the United States through underhanded procedural, educational and/or electoral means. It is having some minor successes in Britain so far, thanks to leftist politicians (that's your people, buddy) pandering to the Islamic interest groups.
I would bet you a dollar to donut that Obama would encourage the American public education system to make the Quran a required reading for all school-children in an effort to promote "understanding and dialogue" between America and the Islamic world. You can bet there'll be a screaming silence from ACLU.
As you were. Check out the videos and audio.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2...
please, show me one example, ONE, of sharia law appearing on US law books. please!
unless you can pull that off, I'd say it is you, sir, who is the lunatic.
I've tried and tried, but I can not come up with anything I can be deeply or shallowly appreciative to Islam for. (Any more than Islam can be appreciative of my Christianity for.) So Mr. Obama, don't say "We". It's becoming more evident as the days go by that you speak not one word on my behalf.
I am only threatened by the individuals, not the belief systems that gave rise to them.
I am only threatened by the individual cancer cells, not radiation or chemicals that give rise to them.
Yup, that's simple alright.
You must be logged in to post a comment.