When Does Life Begin, Y’all?

Amen.

In less than 5 minutes, you completely destroyed the leftist arguments about how we were founded as a secularist nation…and you were funny at the same time (7-letter word for made). Keep making vids. Keep saying what needs to be said.

God Bless.

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Big Tweeting, Big Tweeting. Big Tweeting said: BigHollywood: When Does Life Begin, Y’all?: http://bit.ly/q1sBg #BigTweet [...]

I respect everyone's beliefs that abortion is bad, and I respect that your religion is a very important thing in your lives.

What I don't like is the assumption that all conservatives are Christian, and that everyone else is a "secularist leftist."

I believe in limited government. Low taxes. The government having as limited a role in my life as possible.

And you better believe that includes having the government throw a religious ideology down my throat that I do not believe in.

The left paints all of us as these stereotype of Bible thumping, anti-choice extremists.

I'm afraid the right might agree with them.

We are a big tent party (The GOP). And I hereby, on behalf of the secularist conservatives, RESPECTFULLY ask that you religious conservatives don't just ASSUME that your social/religious beliefs, speak for everyone. They don't.

“The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible”

–Thomas Jefferson.

Founding Father.

You certainly got one thing right: A woman's right to do what she wants with her body is TOTALLY TRUMPED by her baby's right to life.

There's no doubt that Jefferson would be horrified at the abortion culture in this country. But Jefferson was no Christian. He was a Deist, believing there was no personal God who intervened in human lives. He re-wrote the Bible, removing all Jesus's miracles and mysticism. His version was called The Jefferson Bible.

He believed Jesus was neither the Son of God, nor born of a virgin.

On that topic: "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

Jefferson wasn't perfect or omniscient. Jesus is both those things.

I love how conservatives are giving me negative reps on me sharing my true beliefs.

Life? Don't you mean HUMAN life? Well, what defines us as human? It is conscious thought. So, it isn't until some time AFTER birth. As far as I'm concerned, the Romans had it right or were actually far too lenient. I think a parent should have the right to kill their own children up until the early teens.

I'm right there with you. I consider myself a damned fine Conservative.

I also have no religious affiliations or beliefs.

Well, you'll find many Conservatives whose religious beliefs trump their political principles.

I have a few authoritative sources listed here;
http://heyitsjustablogman.blogspot.com/2009/11/wh...

An entity which, left unmurdered, will become a human, IS a human.

Excellent presentation, Zo. I'm pretty sure I had the same DNA five days after I was conceived as I'll have when (if I make it) I'm 60. There is no justification for abortion and they've tried every trick in the book. It all comes down to this; do we have the right to kill? It's really that simple. I hope the post by TonyTwoShoes is just a sick joke. I've noticed this view existed before but it's horrendous every time I encounter it. Euthanasia and eugenics are gaining acceptance and with thinking like this, why not? Is it okay to kill someone who's asleep since they aren't aware of any conscious thoughts? Sick stuff, people, whether you believe in God or not.

I hate to see that. It's a head-in-the-sand, la-la-la-I-can't-HEAR-you mentality.

If it doesn't fit, it can't be true. If it turns out to be true, it's morally wrong. It doesn't matter that your remarks were temperate, and never intended to insult or hurt anyone. It's just a freaky little thing we call religion.

So what would have happen..kick out all the religious cons like the blue bloods want? They make a pretty big part of this party, yet are castigated or mocked by those who don't go to church.

As for abortion, I work with someone who only cares about abortion (yet has popped out two different kids with two different dads, lives with her parents, has them take of the kids and despite being fully employed chooses to take medicaid as opposed to our own insurance because it's cheaper-there's another lesson there too) being available. That being said, I can't imagine people on the right being so narrow focused on this issue it blinds them into another route come 2010 because that's all they look at.

And I hereby on behalf of those who don't make big bold proclamations in some comment thread ask that you secularists understand that if the GOP were made up of only you guys, it would go the way of the Whigs.

You're welcome…and God bless.

I appreciate that—I was actually hesitant to say anything because I figured I'd get a negative response, but damn it's my party too! I'm not the only one, obviously. And I might be pro-choice, but that doesn't mean I'm pro abortion either. I think it is way over-used and I think it's used in a very irresponsible way, and I don't think it has the social stigma it deserves.

But, those are MY beliefs, they don't come from the Bible, just like your beliefs, don't come from the Bible, we might have different views but they are the result of our own reasoning, and our own conclusions…. not some authoritative voice that demands it be so otherwise we go to Hell.

It very much bothers me to see the Right mocked by the media, and it seems like gay rights, abortion, and religion are the easiest targets. I think that is entirely unfair, but I have to say, often the right plays right into that.

If the day comes that you have to be a Christian to be a Republican, this man is voting Libertarian.

BRAVO. Very well done. Though at first I was afraid because his skin color doesn't look like mine, so I grabbed my Bible and my gun…

As long as a person loves the U.S. Constitution and this great country, I'm not offended that they also love religion. As rjc said, it's none of my business. However, I do think that, in the public arena, we need to concentrate on political principles. Government policies should never take into account WWJD or Biblical teachings. They should hew strictly to what the Constitution allows, and not even all of that. Just because a potential law is Constitutional doesn't make it necessary. We're adults, and our adult minds should be all we need.

Example: I think the pro-life position is an ethical position, since it prevents a right (to life) being violated. On the other hand, I don't think that laws allowing prayer in schools spring from either ethical thought or a love for the Constitution.

I agree. I can't help but think the Founders were having these exact same discussions amongst themselves when they were painstakingly creating the documents that are the basis of our nation.

I'm of the belief that the Founders knew the potential for religious fervor to seep into politics. They knew this exact scenario could play out. People keep saying that "Creator" means the God of the Bible, but I believe that they purposefully put it in there the way it was, just so that it couldn't be used for a specific religion. That is a personal opinion.

Thank you for replying.

I believe those men who crafted that great document, our precious Constitution, were more than willing to do the work, to study the ramifications of every word. There's no telling how many hours of sleep they lost, just attempting to do the right thing.

One thing that could (and, I believe, should) unify us Conservatives is our love for that founding document, and our disgust at those who, like President Obama, would trample it underneath his foot (the same one he just used to smash a cigarette butt).

I've often thought about that word, "Creator." Your opinion is an interesting one. I've come to the conclusion that, even if they (wrongly, in my view) considered the Christian God the Creator of humanity, at least they had the good sense to write the Establishment Clause. To me, the wording is pretty clear. It doesn't matter how right or wrong your religion might be, the government cannot be in the business of promoting it.

This is off topic, and I'm pretty sure you've seen this already, but the John Adams miniseries does a phenomenal job of showing (as accurately as possible I suppose) how hard the Founders worked on the Constitution, and how seriously they were taking, every word. Completely inspirational, and made me feel optimistic again when some of the Obama news was getting me down.

No matter what they were, or weren't thinking, they were extremely forward-looking and the fact we can even have this discussion is a true testament to their work and vision.

I am a lifelong Christian who completely agrees with you. The last thing I want for my child is to be taught religion by a public schoolteacher she is forced to learn from or have the government enforce their version of religion. The Left sells the stereotype of the Right-wing Social Conservative because it's the best way to convince young voters that they are the "cool party." Personally, I find nothing more restrictive or boring than the slaves to political correctness on the Left.

As for abortion, I detest it and wish it never happened, but would never, ever vote for someone making it illegal. I loved someone very deeply who almost died during childbirth (and would have if not for a very observant nurse). You can't force a person to undergo something that could kill them because you believe you know what's best for them. The second we can make childbirth 100% safe (including the entire pregnancy), I'll rethink my position.

I so want to see the series, and I hope that I soon shall.

The reading I've done, such as The Federalist Papers and historical accounts, fills me with respect, even awe, for the incredible tasks to which they set themselves.

In that day, people all over the world were amazed at the document. They were astounded that there had been no naked power grab, that men of good will and intellect had joined together to create this marvel. I am humbled at my great good luck, to have been born in the United States of America, where this brilliant legal document guarantees my rights. We mustn't let would-be tinhorn tyrants such as Obama, Reid, Pelosi, ,et al, usurp that which was given us, given us in the face of grave peril, at that.

Wow! That was eloquent.

Thank you for the well-considered remarks. Twenty-five years ago, when I was a Christian, I also held your view about having an agent of the government (a schoolteacher) teach my children religion. Even today, one of the staunchest advocates of keeping religion out of the schools is a Christian minister.

Please forgive this off-topic remark. One of the heroes of my life was a Baptist minister during my teen-age years. He was kind and courageous and lived his beliefs to the end.

Totally agree. And am totally inspired to watch the series again. It piqued my interest in the Jefferson-Adams letters as well, letters they wrote to each other in old age to sort of patch up any problems they had in their friendship, and where they talk about all their hopes and dreams of what the country could be, and their concerns of what could be.

I really wish the Left would show respect for these people, but their legacy is too strong, I'm afraid, for the Terror Trio you just listed, to destroy.

Again, your remarks are well-voiced and appreciated. Certainly, you're right that abortion won't be illegal any time soon.

I don't know the statistics, but I would bet that most abortions are simply a form of birth control, not a reaction to medical risks. I should've been more clear: I was speaking of natural rights, rather than legal rights. The ethics of the abortion issue are (in my view) on the baby's side, particularly when there are no pressing medical issues. (And I recognize that women die during childbirth, even when there was no apparent medical risk up to that point in the pregnancy.)

When it comes to late-term abortions where there is no clear danger to baby or mom, maybe those who believe in them SHOULD vote Democrat. One thing is pretty apparent: Unlimited rights to abortions form a permanent part of the Democrat's political platform. The number of abortions performed since Roe vs Wade is breathtaking.

I don't think it's ethical, and it breaks my heart. I weep for the babies, but also for the moms and dads.

Plenty of non Christians believe abortion is wrong. It was just a Christian's perspective. No matter how much you may dislike it though, we are a Christian nation, founded on Christian principles. Who is trying to force your conversion?

And with all this talk of "Christian Principles" some of you guys may want to read a book called "The Life and Times of Frederick Douglass". Christianity has been used for an excuse for a lot of things in American History. This is nothing new.

This video by far is the best you have ever done Zo! I would suggest to everyone to help make this video viral. If I had the cash I would buy time on all networks (yes the worthless ones) just to see the utter Fail on their faces.
Zo destroys all the worthless networks arguments.

I'm sorry, what is my mantra? Where was I wrong? What you wrote was not even the argument.

Does the bible need to be used to justify not killing the unborn? To me, it just is common decency. I do not understand how killing something so completely innocent can be embraced so fervently – selfishness? It is also confusing when people who strongly support the right to abort get the vapors when the state kills a murderer. It is fine to kill the innocent, but try to shock the life out of a serial killer and then suddenly life is sacrosact?

Your logic carried – why stop at birth? If I have a one year old and I find myself in a heckuva financial pickle, have lost my home and can barely fed myself – why can't I just off the kid. You know, for its sake. How about a two or three year old?

I guess if we really followed the bible, those who took the lord's name in vain or took a false idol would have to go. But yeh… we don't do that. So much for that nonsensical argument.

— On Wed, 11/11/09, IntenseDebate Notifications <notifications@intensedebatemail.com> wrote:

My argument is you can't use the Bible as a basis for U.S. Law. I think the aim of this issue in the nation at large is to somehow use the "weight" of God to be the deciding vote, and you can't do that. That is my main point. The additional point is, a request that the GOP religious right realize that they are not necessarily the majority of the party.

Your "mantra" doesn't have anything to do with that particular point. And I disagree with it. Not all the founders felt the same way on religion. As long as you are not claiming that "They were Christian, therefore we will make sure our law are based on the Bible", then we have no disagreement.

"My logic"—I've already stated that abortion is abused and that it doesn't have the stigma it deserves. I think it's used as birth control, and I think it's obscene to do so.

"What troubles me the most is how many potential Einstein's or Mother Theresa's have been thrown in the trash bin."

With all due respect…. this is the MOTHER (please pardon the pun) of all fundamentally-hollow anti-abortion arguments; and it continues to amaze me that people never challenge it.

Yes, it's technically true that you COULD be depriving the world of the next Einstein, Mother Theresa, etc. via abortion. However, by that same token is every bit as true that you could be SAVING the world from the next Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, bin Laden, Michael Bay, etc. One kinda neutralizes the other…

I noticed someone downward thumbed my entry to you. It happens. We won't all agree. I did not downward thumb you even though I think your logic is twisted. If you called me a name I would have… maybe. Probably not.

That's the problem with this argument. It's not between people who hate abortions and people who think they are fine (although a lot of people on the extremes would have you believe so). Most people fall into the, "I hate it, but don't think it's right to make it a crime" camp. The question is, since we know that not every fetus will become a baby (no one knows the miscarriage percentages, but they are significant), that not every pregnancy that seems fine will end fine, and that not everyone who chooses an abortion does so capriciously, how do we change the laws to accommodate all these facts?

Personally, I think the Right needs to focus on the things that can actually be accomplished (i.e. parental notification, forcing abortion clinics to give patients all the facts, give real choices to women who don't want to (or can't) raise their children, etc…). Since this is an area of faith for many people, I understand the fervor of those who mourn every lost child and can understand why they can't just settle for small victories. Eventually they are going to have to recognize that getting rid of Roe v. Wade isn't going to happen (it's been what, 40 years?), and try to figure out the best way to reduce the number as a pragmatic option.

My biggest concern is the parental notification. As the father of a 9 year-old girl, the thought of her getting in to trouble, then being talked into something as obscene as surgery without my knowledge is frightening. I think that's something we could get done tomorrow, and should be the main focus of pro-life groups until it gets passed (we got it here in Lib-land Chicago, so I know it would be possible to get it everywhere). I'm less concerned with what adults do than children, who are so scared that they can be talked into taking incredibly stupid risks.

Good point. We'd better have all our potential kids aborted just to make sure.

(Last post was deleted, I'm trying again)

Or we could let individual citizens of a free society make up their own mind. I mean, that tends to work sometimes…

To the religion in politics discussion you must remember this. The founding fathers tried not to mingle church with state because doing so would pollute the church…not the state.

Actually no. Some forms of the pill and the IUD make the uterus unable to receive implantation of an egg. Others keep the woman from ovulating at all. The condom and the dam are the ones that keeps the egg and sperm from meeting. A few kill the sperm.

Agreed with most of what you said HPJ. However, I don't think it is a law that "allows" prayer in school. It is actually a law that doesn't "ban" prayer in school. There is a small but significant difference and it deals with first amendment rights.

On another topic. Having a gov't or political ideology based on Judeo-Christian values doesn't necessarily imply everyone is Christian. It just implies that there are a set of values that are traditionally Christian.

For those of us who have studied these values, we recognize that what we call Judeo-Christian values are really just a set of values based on good common sense and civil norms. Christians have been taught and have adopted these values via the Ten Commandments among other places.

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you, is pretty much the gist.

Your wife and you did not decide. Use the correct word: She chose. And good for her that she feels she made the right choice, because that is the whole point. Her choice would be valid either way, as long as she was the one who made it.

I don't think I've ever been around a better discussion on abortion than this one.

To have people with heartfelt opinions on all sides of this issue, yet to read one well-reasoned comment after another: This is truly extraordinary. After all, this issue epitomizes the term "hot-button."

Thank you for replying, SQT.

Wanda, I've seen quite a few of your comments. You're a good and thoughtful commenter, I think. As for me, I haven't been as good as I should have, but I'm trying to make a change.

I'm proud of my Conservative brothers and sisters who contributed to this thread. Thanks for the great remarks.

Thank you for the educational comments. You've inspired me (an atheist) to do a bit of research.

This is new information to me. Thanks for passing it on. I plan to delve into it.

^^^^ I'm not very well educated, LOL, getting started late in life.

Please tell me you forgot the /sarc tags…

The same mind set that allows a crime to be called a hate-crime when there is no love crime(unless your gay in Iran), or say termination instead of kill or murder, or say lightly wounded when an Israelly, or to say deranged person to avoid terrorist while denying it is the same, or Rush is a hate monger like Al, or attacking the arguer and not his/her/it's logic, to ignore a news story because it is provacative, to not enforcing the law because it would be inconvenient, to ignore a law abideing american is banned from an ally country, I can go on, as so we all.

Hi again rjc,

I think, as far as your and my conversation is going, we're the victims of a slight misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that ALL the founding fathers were Christian. Many were. Some (such as Jefferson, which this video regrettably got wrong) weren't.

I don't think that anybody for ANY reason (religious or otherwise) has to create laws that interfere in your life unless such laws are in allignment with the Bill of Rights (ie—laws about drinking and driving do interfere with one's life, but these laws have a very, very good reason for existing).

What I was saying was that the founders used Judeo-Christian PRINCIPLES. Not quite the same thing. A guy may not believe the Bible to be the word of God, but he may find the major ideas on man's place in the world and how he relates to his fellow men appealing.

Choosing to relegate the significance of the human embryo to mere cellular mass to aid in it's indiscriminate destruction is not happenstance. The destruction of liberty is similarly accomplished through the systematic deconstruction of the tenets found in our Declaration of Independence. There are no coincidences here.

If scientists discovered a fetus on Mars, would they call it life? If they found a zygote on Mars, would it be considered life?