Pledge of Allegiance to Dissent: An Intolerant ‘Excess of Liberty’?
by Adam Baldwin“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
An Arkansas fifth-grader made news recently by claiming there is no “liberty and justice for all” in America as his reason for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance during his school’s daily patriotic exercises.
Red Skelton could’ve taught him a thing or two:
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Of course, the Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that as long as such dissent is practiced in a non-disruptive manner a student is acting well within his Constitutional rights — his faulty reasoning for the dissent being irrelevant — and he may not be compelled to participate by either the school, or the state.
Teachers and administrators are strictly prohibited from singling out such peaceful dissent for discipline, admonishment or public ridicule.
Any teacher or administrator doing so should swiftly and forthrightly be subjected to reprimand or discipline including assignment to an appropriate Teacher Quality Enhancement Training program in order to mitigate any future injustices on their part.
The Pledge itself takes all of fifteen seconds to recite — which is likely a main reason most states and public school boards ascribe it for compliance with their respective education codes, policies and regulations — yet the Pledge, as with standardized patriotic exercises, is designated to inculcate patriotic values upon our nation’s children.
These values — i.e., love of and devotion to country — include American Exceptionalism, which secures even the Liberty and human rights to dissent against that very love and devotion.
Contrary to popular opinion however, dissent is obviously not de facto the ‘highest form of patriotism.’
As Socrates warns the ages in Plato’s Republic:
“[D]emocracy has her own good [Freedom], of which the insatiable desire brings her to dissolution… the father grows accustomed to descend to the level of his sons and to fear them, and the son is on a level with his father, he having no respect or reverence for either of his parents; and this is his freedom… the truth being that the excessive increase of anything often causes a reaction in the opposite direction… above all in forms of government… The excess of liberty, whether in States or individuals, seems only to pass into excess of slavery.”
Is it an excess of liberty that incites a fifth-grader to irrational dissent against a pro forma patriotic exercise, and in the process tell his substitute teacher to “go jump off a bridge”?
Perhaps, but that is for his parents to decide, the Supreme Court moots further argument.
There is however a parallel issue that might be worthy of consideration:
Can state and local school boards compel teachers to lead the Pledge of Allegiance in their classrooms?
The Supreme Court held in Newdow v. Elk Grove 2004 that, yes, in fact they can:
Congress prescribed a Pledge of Allegiance, the State… required patriotic observances in its schools, and the School District chose to comply by requiring teacher-led recital of the Pledge of Allegiance by willing students.
Hopefully teachers unions and under-their-thumb school boards won’t exploit this latest attack against the Pledge as a destructive excuse to reject and undermine its original intent, i.e., allegiance to the American Republic in all her glory and the values inculcation thereof.
Hopefully as well, outside political advocacy groups will be barred as sponsors of so-called “Tolerance Through Education” programs that intrude outside Lawyer/Facilitators — without prior parental notification – into classrooms as a means of creating political correctness Pledges of Tolerance that students can be shamed to abide, while concurrently pressured to diminish the traditional Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America.
Whenever public schools ignore or revise long-standing Patriotic Exercises policy requiring simply the Pledge, or Star Spangled Banner, replacing those with near meaningless vagaries like “Appropriate patriotic exercises also include, but are not limited to, songs, poems, quotations and discussions related to the development of citizenship in a democracy” one begins to wonder whether rulebooks are any longer worth the paper they’re printed on.
What values should the required daily patriotic exercises in public schools inculcate in American students?
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266 Comments
Good God. When my toddler starts school next year, I'm putting him in private school.
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look for a christian school.
The blurb i saw, the boy said gays and lesbian don't have equal rights… BUT THEY DO!!! They have the same rights as I do… marry a consenting single human adult of opposite sex. SAME EXACT RIGHTS I HAVE. As a heterosexual, it is illegal for me to marry an animal, a child, someone who doesn't want to marry me, more than 1 person or someone of the same sex… As a hetero, I have to follow the SAME RULES.
And as far as tradition, values, morales go. As a society, we must decide to encourage LOVE as Desire.. or as Sacrifice. Let's ask our children which one they'd want us to choose?
Oh and thanks Adam! You rock! I always read your stuff. Because its about our children, and if it wasn't about our children, then fine., let them have cake and eat it and throw it away and throw it around the house…. But no, it is about children. And yes, we must choose the society we believe best…
Mr. Baldwin, I respectfully disagree.
I agree with all your sentiment, but there's a reason it's called a pledge and not an oath, because it's voluntary.
Maybe its a hold over from my old days as a lefty, but we have no right to force people to demonstrate love for their country. Which is exactly the reason I love America.
I'm prouder of the American flag because I have the right to burn it if I wanted – which I only do during respectful disposal. I am prouder of the Pledge of Allegiance because I am not compelled to recite it. And if I had to attend a state designated church, you 'd never see me near it. I believe because I choose to.
I respectfully disagree.
I say we waterboard them until they admit that America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth, whose people are endowed with the glory of God almighty. The Christian one. Then we can make them recite the Bill of Rights (i.e., the Second Amendment), which protects hardworking Americans from the tyranny of the left-wing elitists, unless there's a Republican in office. In that case, we can dutifully ignore the Constitution, since the Republicans keep us safe.
I haven't seen the Pledge of Allegiance from Red Skelton in a long time, thanks for posting.
Mine already is. 11th grade.
Great post, thanks.
Adam, I don't usually agree with your analysis, but you provide the most thoughtful posts on this website.
Anyway, whatever the Pledge's original intent, all it has become is meaningless ceremony and procedure. It does little to foster allegiance or indoctrination–no "ideas" are being communicated by having kids recite it every morning. We only reflect on what it actually means when an incident like this arises, in fact.
"Patriotic exercises" in school obviously walk a very thin line in a partisan America. Children demonstrating loyalty to America is good, but, judging from the reactions on sites like this, demonstrating loyalty it a specific president (even mistrusting him to address students!) is bad? So these sorts of things have to be watered-down vagaries or a lot of people will get very upset.
you could be right. the problem is that our children know A TON about suffering native American Indians (only at the hands of white christians)… but no NOTHING about our Founding Fathers.
so in a world of free ideals I respectfully agree with you.
but in a world where our children are brainwashed (not by our parents) then I'd say… disagree with you. ….COMPLETELY…
Very carefully examine what the school is, it's nature, it's message. Look at the alumni, as well. But that's not always a valid indicator as schools can transform in a mere few years.
There are many, many very expensive, exclusive private schools which are equally as bad as an inner city drug infested public school. It's just hidden better, that's all. Look how the kids are dressed, that's the fastest way to measure the school's ability to command respect and encourage discipline among the student body. Without either of those you have a zoo. Might as well just send your kid to prison and save the time.
Catholic schools are very good, oftentimes. Well rounded education, usually higher than most public schools in aptitude testing. 99% of Catholic schools don't preach religion, believe it or not. They do have mass usually once a week. Or a religion class that probably includes singing. Not exactly a bad thing.
There are many excellent Catholic schools and universities out there and none that I know of that brainwash kids or even preach to them to be a Catholic. But there are many, many secular schools and universities which do brainwash kids into being anti-republican, anti-conservative and a good, loyal liberal.
Thanks for the post!
Home Schooling is an Excellent Choice
Some Home Schooling Info
http://usataxpayer.org/homeschool.asp
Take a look at our government indoctrination schools. They teach our kids a bunch of clap-trap so they will accept it when they become voters. There is no God, praise homosexuals, be politically correct, global warming, embrace illegals, bigger government is the answer to everything. They don't have time for the three RRRs any more, they are too busy turning out idiots that can't speak, write or form a cognizant thought. The government is their god
Perversion in Public Schools!
http://usataxpayer.org/view.asp?Get=schools
Your logic is circular, ron. Let's say it's 1956, all is right in the world, there are no problems in America, the commies are bad, we're good, and those pesky minorities know their place. Let's say you fall in love with a beautiful black woman, you date, you court, and eventually you decide that you want to marry this black woman. You go to the JP, the JP tells you "I'm sorry, you can't get married, marriage is between one man and one woman of the same race." You say "But that's not fair, the government has no right to tell me who I can and can't marry. This is a violation of my rights," and they say "You have the same rights I do, marry a consenting adult of the opposite sex and the same race." This was, in fact, "traditional marriage" last century. But our society changes and we change and we expand the definition, since we realize that there's nothing inherently wrong with two people of different races entering into a RELIGIOUS CONTRACT. It's a beautiful thing when we extend rights (not privileges – marriage is not a privilege) in this country.
As for your definition of tradition, values, and morals, your assumption that gay love is just desire and not sacrifice is ridiculous. I've seen the commitment and sacrifice two gay people in love can show for each other, and it's every bit as valid as the love between heterosexuals. No one needs your recognition, your permission, or your tolerance. And spare me your "it's for the children" malarky…I can point to a ton of heterosexuals who had no business reproducing, and all they had to do was forget the birth control. It always amazes me that conservatives (and I consider myself conservative) would rather the State parent these children when their heterosexual birth parents are unwilling or unfit to, instead of a stable and secure household with two gay parents.
Honestly, I am bitterly sick of this fact.
Let me be frank: If this little fool had done this in the Third Reich of the Soviet Union, he would have been deported to at the very least a holding area for "analysis", and then he most likely would have been sterilized, or more likely SHOT. And his family, friends, neighbors, acquaintances, etc, would have been the subject of a massive witchhunt likely to leave a good half of them dead and even more of them in prison for various lengths of time.
Contrast to Imperial Germany, were the arguably more benign leaders would have simply had him locked up without rights to a trial or correspondence, examined the assets and behavior of everyone related to him top-to-bottom before either releasing him or (for repeat offenders) exiling or shooting him.
Or in Maoist China, where he would have been locked up along with his friends and most possible relations, forced to confess to ludicrous if relatively mild charges and to write self-flagellating essays, before being sent off to work in rural communes staffed by paramilitary, ill-disciplined, and ruthless Red Guards without adequate food or sanitation before eventually being let back as an exile who must forcefully endure yet more humiliation and self-flagellation to obtain the barest of recognition as a second-class citizen, constantly looking behind his back in case the local members of the CCP find reason to hammer him again. And then it would get even worse.
And this is before we talk about the Islamist nations of the world, where they would have simply tortured, possibly raped (it isn't homosexual if there is no attraction, or so it goes), and then executed him, most likely his entire direct family (barring circumstances forbidding), a good deal of his extended family, and many of his friends and their families. Before the survivors are placed under suspicion for more-or-less the rest of their lives.
And this SWINE HAS THE NERVE to talk about how there is "No Freedom or Liberty AT ALL in the US?"
Now, unlike most, I actually sympathize with the idea of homosexual partnerships, and even marriages (albeit with the consent of the church doing it), but the optimum words here are AT ALL.
This kid has no idea what the big bad world is like. And if the US has No Freedom or Liberty, than I suppose virtually all the rest of the world has NEGATIVE liberty?
What a knave.
WRONG!!! There is no RACE in the Bible, Christianity, or in marriage. That rule was made by racist people, christians, Darwinists, govt laws. The teachings of Christ have no race component.
You like to compare BAD heteros to GOOD gays… Let's compare BAD parents to BAD gay men who acquire children. Let's compare GOOD loving mothers & fathers with GOOD loving gay men. Let's see which of those two comparisons, children would want to choose from.
But you are right… A MOTHER and A FATHER of a child… ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT. And as a society, we shouldn't hold those two positions in high regard… but lets just religate them to the same lameness & wanton lifestyles of singles and gay poeple, who you claim …SACRIFICE? for each other??? WOW! What! I guess raising kids is religated to gays caring for one another.
AND PLEASE… Conservatives don't immediately start a debate by demeaning the other. "your logic is circular"…. PLEASE….
I have no problem with this kid. I would just treat him the same way he treats his country. I would not hire someone like this or have anything to do with this shallow kid. Maybe the ACLU can hire him but I would never even speak to him. That is my dissent.
Uh.. schizoid… how WRONG you are!!! you forgot COMMUNIST in the brainwashing!!!
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the courts would force you to hire him, have something to do with him, & speak to him!
I guess the kids who make fun of him is showing their dissent and I am glad they are not afraid to let this ungratful kid that he is an outcast. Keep up the great work kid. I predict this kid will either be in Prison where he has to listen to people of authority or he will be dead for running his mouth and showing his dissent to the wrong person. I could care less.
My mistake. It was not "At All", It was for all. Please keep that in mind for my post.
So he wasn't THAT stupid. But this still qualifies. If a Homosexual woman or man is raped or murdered, make no mistake, THERE WILL BE A FAIR TRIAL. If a Homosexual woman or man wants to picket a Mormon church over Prop 8, THEY CAN.
The only issue is what role marriage has to do with this, and while I would argue it is a curtailment of liberty for Homosexuals (albeit due to the churches exercising THEIR liberty to do so), and may be an injustice by marginalizing gays (what about devout Catholic Gays? I know a few of them- hell, most of them I know would make most of the "ultraconservative" fire and brimstoners look like the Anglican Church-, so how do they fit in if they actually want to tie the knot and live according to their vows?
But still, this was over the top. If you tie your allegiance to a nation based on one single fact like that, then one ponders what you will do when you age and it becomes apparent that no place is utopia.
And besides, WHAT is full equality, and how do you judge it? Are gays being denied "full" equality by not being allowed to marry per the private decisions of the religious groups that actually conduct these ceremonies? Perhaps. Are gays, minorities, or women being denied "full" equality if they are paid less or given less profitable jobs? Even if, on a case-by-case individual basis, this would be justified?
Equality without definition is just a rhetorical parlor trick. Almost anyone is in favor of equality. But equality in what? And How?
In the words of Saul Alinsky (who actually COULD get it right once or twice),
"what that we have experienced here would have resulted in a sweeping purge and mass executions in Russia, China, or Cuba. Let’s keep some perspective. (xxi)"
A valuable tip for this young man, particularly given the sorry state of the world.
what the heck? why are you even here? oh… the Communist pay you to be here. Well, they shouldn't pay you. They should give you a ration card… to get in line, at 5am on Wednesday morning, that is BREAD day.
Is someone's mind going to be changed just because one rug-rat decides not to do the pledge? Whatever happened to the good old days when children were meant to be seen, and not heard?
Adam,
That video was great. Thanks.
Well said. This nonsense about homosexuals wanting "equal rights" is just that – nonsense. What they want are SPECIAL rights.
LOL, fyi, the Bible isn't one of our founding documents. I don't believe in the Bible, I don't have to believe in the Bible, and I don't have to live my life according to the Bible in this country. But it does have quite a bit to say about race, in fact, it lists an entire chosen people that God alternately plagues or praises, often to the detriment of other races God isn't too keen on. In fact, the Bible pretty clearly says that Jews can't marry non-Jews, and adultery is understood by many Bible scholars to mean miscegenation, so fail for you, bro.
To your second point: I'd wager the kids wouldn't care, and unless you've produced a study showing otherwise, then you're engaging in conjecture. Your third point: I'm not sure you have a third point, but I will say that you're generalizing about gays "wanton lifestyles"…heterosexuals are quite good at wonton lifestyles as well, but the State isn't taking away anyone's kids because they had an affair, or they drink too much, or they're never home, etc etc. In this country, we're not supposed to let identity politics influence policy, and when you generalize that no gay person is fit to be a parent, you're falling into the same identity politics that the left-wing uses when they try to advance hate crimes legislation. Yes, gay people do sacrifice for each other and gay people do sacrifice for their children. Just because you don't have any gay friends and you've never seen them sacrifice for each other doesn't mean that they don't.
Finally, I wasn't demeaning you, I was pointing out a flaw in your thought process. Conservatives ostensibly use reason and logic when debating, and so to debate effectively, we should recognize when our or another's argument is fallacious. Your argument was fallacious. I didn't call you a retard or say you're a bigot or say you should learn how to debate before you open your stupid mouth, I simply said that your logic is circular. Man up.
Patriotism is like sex. You can talk about it all you want, but there's absolutely nothing like the actual deed. You can make kids recite it all you want, and as adults we may feel good doing it, but the place to learn true love of country is to travel it, live in it, and get to know its people.
I'm going to guess you weren't on the debating team?
I've come to the opinion that you're a nut case.
So because a kid feels that there is not justice and equality for all – and is able to produce a reason why – you're going to black list him out of spite?
Nice. Real adult of you.
I appreciate your convivial disagreement.
What values do you think should the required daily patriotic exercises in public schools inculcate in American students?
Do you not agree that school districts are entitled to (and should) direct their employees to lead the Pledge as a requirement of their employment?
Concerning Catholic Gays… at our mass, the priest preached acceptance of gays. And I'm all for that. But what he didn't preach and I was waiting for … was gays acceptance of Christ, their acceptance of his teachings. Homosexuality is an addiction or desire, just like lust, drugs, hedonism, drinking, football, shopping, perversions, toys, fun things, whatever. But none of these are important to the family. That institution of a mother and father sacrificing their lives for their children, the betterment & future of their children. Gays must come to accept what is most important in the teachings of Christ… and it is not their desire for one another… it is the love of sacrifice… FOR CHILDREN. If gays want to live their own lives, fine, we will tolerate it… BUT to change the church, to change society, that has democratically accepted the institution of marriage…. NOT GOING TO STAND FOR IT.
Except that the legal status of a homosexual couple is not equal to the legal status of a heterosexual couple.
That Americans actually believe they're not regarded as a mixture of hypocrite, blind to the rotting corruption in their core and extremist lunatics by the rest of the world only baffles people.
That you, as a country, force through rote and pressure this kind of rabid patriotism on people is disgusting. Are you afraid that if you stopped treating those who dissent badly and stop forcing in on people that they'll realise what your country is actually like?
Most countries have an anthem in school assembly and at sporting events and otherwise patriotism is a personal thing.
Love for your country is worth more when its earned, not indoctrinated.
For the sake of argument, by what process do you think the definition of marriage should be changed (if you think it should, that is)?
And,
What values should the required daily patriotic exercises in public schools inculcate in American students?
I'm here because conservatives need to learn some CONSISTENCY. Republicans are losing elections because they don't have any principles. It's just this weird melange of corporatist (not free-market) economics and religious fundamentalist social control. Everyone who's poopooing government tyranny nowadays sat idly by while the previous administration ravaged our civil liberties, our very founding principles. Republicans could be a strong force for good if they'd lighten up on the culture wars and start practicing free-market capitalism. Instead, they come with a banner of freedom and take away everyone's rights in the process. Learn to Goldwater.
You wanna know something? Jesus never said anything about gay marriage or homosexual relationships at all. It's all in the Old Testament. The one with all the rules people ignore because Jesus said that they no longer mattered, that the only thing that mattered was loving each other.
So using the Bible as a reason for why same sex marriage shouldn't happen doesn't work with Christianity.
Second of all, saying that marriage should follow the rules of Christianity assumes that marriage is a purely Christian concept, that only Christians take part in. It's a ceremony that's part of all religions, and even non-religious people are allowed to marry. To force the ideology of Christianity on these people is unconstitutional, as forcing your religion on others doesn't seem like religious freedom, does it?
And from every article I've read about the subject, it seems that kids growing up with gay parents are just as happy and well adjusted as the average kid, and they wouldn't want to change their parents if they could.
Although I can't stand to see kids that young exhibit such foolish sentiments (undoubtedly the result of indoctrination within the home), I'm not sure I can go along with that. Not that I don't think learning the Pledge and being sincere in saying it is a good thing, but right now I'm rather antsy about public school districts inculcating ANYTHING in our kids.
homosexual couples do not need legal status… but civil unions are fine with me. but why? they can get a contract made which is more binding than marriage? they can join a hospital that accepts gay couples. they can DO WHATEVER THEY WANT. oh noooo, they want MARRIAGE, they want US to accept GAY as the SAME THING as a MOTHER and FATHER. they want our children to not know the difference. WELL, there is a difference.
Indoctrinate our children? Hmmm… let's see… indoctrine to love this nation, a democratic, tolerant, republic of the people…. or to hate this nation… and change it, to feel shame about this nation, its christian heritiage, and to desire COMMUNISM and govt welfare programs and free sex (not really free) and no obligation to do anything…. YAY… that's all open mindedness and not indoctrination by the COMMUNISTS in America… at all!
I think marriage is a religious institution and not a civil institution. I think government should get out of the marriage business entirely. The only reason the federal government is involved in civil marriage is for tax purposes. At the very least it should be left to the states, but frankly, I don't think it's even in the purview of the states.
I don't think there should be required daily patriotic exercises. What makes this country great is that no one requires you to be a patriot. You can hate this country, completely despise it, and you're never required to say otherwise. That's a beautiful thing, and it's unique to America. I love my country dearly, not its government or its geography or even its people, I love its Constitution and I love its value of civil disagreement. If they really want to inculcate American values, then they should teach that we live in a Republic where the rights of the minority can not and will not be trampled upon by the will of the majority, they should teach that diversity of thought and speech are essential to a functioning democracy, and they should teach children that they're individuals who have a right and a responsibility to form their own beliefs.
Actually, i think… the best sex… is intense sex with the woman i have loved for many years. I mean, she can suck a golf ball through a garden hose while juggling! Oiy!!
But I believe we must teach our children to know what to love… for if we don't… SOMEBODY ELSE WILL. And as Adam is explaining… PUBLIC SCHOOLS are replacing the parent… and much to our own damn fault for accepting more govt….
So talking away has really helped me to know… ITS UP TO ME! To teach them the right values. Silence by Christians… is killing us. Conservatives too… SPEAK UP!
BUT THEY ARE INDOCTRINATING OUR CHILDREN. They are being inculcated RIGHT NOW. And it doesn't include… the Constitution, our Founding Fathers, the Judeo-Christian heritage…
What is does include so far is: Native American Indians are victims. All cultures & religions are good, except white christian europe. Can't say Christmas. America is a slave nation.
Catch my drift? you are coming at it with… hey we are brainwashing them, so lets just not do it.. and no one else will….
the reality is our kids are being brainwashed, indoctrinated, influenced by EVERYTHING… so you have to PICK SOMETHING…
Lol.
But truthfully, they don't really push real communism, nor does the American Left in Hollywood, etc.. Because true communism would favor none, embrace all. The American Left, obviously does not subscribe to that philosophy. They favor their own. Period. And those who lead, get the goodies. That's not communism in its true form. That's tyranny (which communism is, but a different form). They want to be in power, lord it over the masses, get the good stuff, make others wait. Same old story.
You have the right to marry who you love, they want the right to marry who they love, yet they don't. It's that simple. That's not equal rights.
If the kid thinks that not saying the national anthem is the best way to go, let the kid be shown on how lucky and privileged he has it going for him to have rights. In other places he would have been kicked in the rear with a bamboo staff or shown nothing but Lindsey Lohan movies in re-runs. Or he can believe in J.R. Bob Dobbs as a religion . Oh and Adam Baldwin your a awesome actor keep it up.
Jews… is a belief, a tribe, chosen people, yes, but NOT A RACE.
Kids wouldn't care about who their REAL mother and father is? Never, in their lives?
Just because heteros fail to keep up the vows of marriage, doesn't mean we should change dumb down marriage? You act like wanton lifestyles are victimless…. they are not, they are wrought with victims. If you can accept your lifestyle & your loved ones as hedonistic… then so be it. But for those of us in 31 states who were given the chance to vote, we want a higher goal, a higher purpose.
And your logic isn't circular at all… it just sucks. Children who don't care who their mother and father are… BRILLIANCE!
HOLD ON ANON… i gotta scour through New Testament… be right back!
Adam,
I also thank you for the post. It was really great!
That is your opinion for your Church, and I honestly couldn't give a damn one way or the other so long as nobody starts chopping necks about it. But since I have a perverse desire to play Devil's Advocate in religious debates….
"Homosexuality is an addiction or desire, just like lust, drugs, hedonism, drinking, football, shopping, perversions, toys, fun things, whatever."
Which leads one to one crucial question: if we define "desire" to mean both homosexuality (being attracted/doing/whatever someone of the same sex, regardless of one's feelings or actions) with (presumably heterosexual) lust (ie merely being interested in the carnal aspect of said relationship,), doesn't that logically dig a permimeter large enough for Heterosexuality (even loving, Biblical heteosexuality) to fall under (again, Homosexuality is who you are doing regardless of one's feelings, lust is why you are doing someone)? Since presumably both lustful Heteosexuals and loving Homosexuals fall into that catagory, could we not assume the same for loving Heteosexuals? And even if we agree that the church canon accepts Heteosexuality as just, is this truly stating that it is not an addiction, or merely that it is the accepted addiction?
"Gays must come to accept what is most important in the teachings of Christ… and it is not their desire for one another."
Of which the same could be said for heterosexual Christians. Has that ever stopped them from doing so? And do they necessarily have a special exemption because of the "go forth and multiply" part of the covenant?
"BUT to change the church, to change society, that has democratically accepted the institution of marriage…. NOT GOING TO STAND FOR IT."
Historically, you have not much to stand on. Like it or not, for centuries, religions have been forced to reform or at least change, dating from the Reformation to the "Great Awakenings" here in North America. Unless you really, REALLY dig in and draw the line, the popular pressure will usually force a compromise. And even digging in is no guarantee of success. Like it or not, that's the historical record for a good part of the past two millennia.
All I can say is that NONE of the great lessons I've learned about America were learned inside a classroom, so this devotion to the idea that saying the Pledge automatically makes good citizens has always been bunk to me.
And congrats to you and the missus. ;-D
i know you wont believe this.. but i flipped my new testament open… and was 1 page away from Ephesians 5:22… booooyah… what it says is about husband & wife… not husband & husband.
concerning non-christian marriage… what gay marriage religion in history are you referring to?
concerning religious freedom… well no one is forcing marriage on gays. & if hospital visits are their biggest concern… or taxes? then address that. but you know… the poeple have voted on this. over and over…
every article you read? EVERY ONE says kids are fine with gay parents? well heck, lets just do away with the shackles of marriage and let kids roam around with any adult. why dont we just make vat kids? form them from vats. make clones n stuff… whole armies of kids!!! F those parents. we dont need'em… bah!
Jews are a religious group, a tribe, and a race. They are a nation chosen by God to enact his will on this earth. That's why you're a Jew if your mother is a Jew no matter what. You can never un-Jew yourself if that matrilineal racial aspect is present.
Dumb down marriage? Why do you assume that it's dumbed-down? I didn't say anything about wanton lifestyles being victimless. My argument is that it's wrong to assume that gays have wanton lifestyles. They don't any more than heterosexuals do. And if you're going to use these moralistic concepts in your evaluation of policy, then why don't we just ban divorce? It's pretty clear in Leviticus (you know, the don't be gay don't eat shellfish chapter) that a marriage after a divorce is a state of perpetual infidelity. If you're using the Bible to justify policy, then for Darwin's sake, be consistent about it! But luckily in this country, your bronze-age mythology has nothing to do with my contract rights. So, I'll ask, if you're campaigning against gay marriage, will you also campaign against heterosexual divorce?
Well I say we don't need "patriotic exercises" at all. Read Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism"
The pledge was written in 1892 and only had the words "under God" added in 1954.
And why do people on here feel that this kid should shut up and take it, and appreciate how good he has it because he would be treated worse elsewhere? What are you thinking? I believe some of you would support him if he said he wouldn't do the pledge because he felt Obama was misleading the copuntry or he hated Nancy Pelosi. This kid is showing the grown-ups what is wrong with the treatment of different people in our country and is getting shat upon. He is a reall American.
Maatkare —
I agree in part and disagree. Are you a parent? You make your kids say 'thank you' until they learn the meaning of it and know to say it on their own. You don't teach them to say 'thank you', they won't as adults. You must inculcate the 'value' of saying 'thank you.' You do this in children through demanding that they say it.
You married? Treating your wife as though you love her and she's the most important person in the world is crucial (i.e., the deed), but so is saying "I love you and you're the most important person in the world."
Both deeds and words are crucial.
Most grade school kids are of an age where they don't even understand the pledge or give any consideration to what it means. I think it's fantastic that this kid actually put some thought into the words he's being told to recite as though they mean something to him – he's exercising his constitutional rights, and I think it's fantastic that one so young has come to his own informed conclusion and is so dedicated to his cause.
And my understanding of the 'go jump off a bridge' comment was that it came after four days of harassment from the substitute teacher. Wasn't a smart thing to say, wasn't a respectful thing to say, but it wasn't unprovoked.
Blind patriotism helps no one. Plugging your ears and tearfully avowing that this republic is the greatest country on earth gets you absolutely nowhere. This kid has a point, and it's a good one – he's brought up issues of racism, sexism, religious discrimination, and, to his eyes, the biggie – the right of two consenting adults to stand before their loved ones and their higher power and declare faithfulness and love for each other. With so much wrong in the world, how backwards do you have to be to besmirch love? With the divorce rate at 50% among church-sanctioned, traditional-definition marriages, you've got your work cut out for you to convince anyone that it's the gays who're threatening the sanctity of marriage.
There's a reason why ten year old kids can't vote, drink, gamble, marry, or operate motor vehicles: They're stupid. I don't care how smart your own 10 year old kid is compared to other 10 year olds, he still hasn't developed the tools he needs to make reasonable and intelligent arguments about anything. Kids have simplistic minds and live in a fantasy world based more on what they want it to be, rather than what it is. In other words, they're like liberals, only cuter. And what kind of monster would argue with a sweet little kid? That's why the lefties like to wheel out the tots out to preach their gospel and push their agenda.
Apples to oranges my friend. Conservatives are consistent, Republicans are not. The two political ideologies are not always one and the same.
No one stops homosexuals from having ceremonies or entering into legal arrangements.
What they want is to force their morals on those of us who do not agree.
YES! No fault divorces are lame! Its harder to get out of a car purchase than it is a marriage.
Jews are semitites… but there are many non jew semitites or whatever that term is. but as a christian… i overrule OT with NT.
what i want is for our society to teach children that marriage is the most important & difficult thing there is. and it is about raising children, dedicating one's life to the opposite sex mom/dad and to the children. what is happening is that we are dumbing down marriage with no fault, gay, polygamy, sex, wantoness and teaching our kids that as well.
you all keep telling us christians to stop indoctrinating our kids… all the while plastering up your sexualizing billboards and govt run anti-christian public schools.
and for Darwin's sake, lets use eugenics and get rid of any inferior races!!!
"This kid has a point, and it's a good one – he's brought up issues of racism, sexism, religious discrimination, and, to his eyes, the biggie – the right of two consenting adults to stand before their loved ones and their higher power and declare faithfulness and love for each other."
Well, you apparently went to the same school as Skippy, because everybody has that "right". Even gays. Try it, and see if anyone stops you. However, if you want your marriage recognized by the state, you have to meet certain conditions. You mentioned two of them: "Consenting" and "Adult". Can you name some other conditions? And for extra credit, explain why we should "besmirch love" by having any conditions at all. You will be graded on style and grammar.
WAIT A MINUTE!!! please find me a state marriage license that has LOVE as a requirement???
i know they have these things:
adult
consenting
human
single
opposite sex
there are considerations for criminal record, disease, blood tests, etc..
but nothing on LOVE.
can you find that for me? thanks.
oh and check Romans 1:26… concerning homosexual & hedonist lifestyles. pretty rough. For no God in your knowledge really does mean you can do anything you DESIRE… and so should your children… ESPECIALLY in your house.
You're right… I think I should shut up.. forever and ever because of your opinion… of me.
oh that reminds me… gotta tell my wife how i love her more now than all the days before…
This stupid little kid not only understands the concept of liberty and justice for all, but can point out how we're failing to meet that standard. This stupid little kid also understands that citizens in a free society use protest and civil disobedience to guarantee the rights of others. That's not only smart, that's American smart.
Excellent point, and no to both for me; but I would add the codicil that personal relationships (thank, I love you, etc.) are very different than concepts like love of country and can't really be taught by the same methods–ie expressing love to another person or saying thanks creates immediate feedback with another human soul with an immediate response; loving America is a little more of an abstract idea in that America never says 'I love you back,' or 'you're welcome.'
This is elementary school, not college. Elementary school kids aren't supposed to make courageous political statements in order to get out of class and impress CNN talking heads. As long as I am paying for his education, he should sit down and shut up so he can be taught how to think and reason.
If our kids don't say the Pledge of Allegiance… then they will say something else. Whatever it is… they will say something.
We must choose… what they say… or someone else will.
I for one, really really love the Pledge of Allegiance. And America. And Christianity. And all that this great nation is, has been, and with courage like Adam's and ours, will continue to be.
I'm not sure if this will help, but I'd like to make an attempt to clairify HollywoodRon's point. It is the church's teaching that the only proper arena for sexual acts is within the confines of marriage. We teach that sex has a twofold purpose: the bonding and comfort of the couple, and the bringing forth of new life. The two purposes MUST be present, to try and remove one or the other is not the proper order God has for sexuality. This includes- homosexual sex, sex outside of marriage, contraceptive sex and even self-stimulation (trying to evade the filter here!). Like it or not, agree with it or not, the church has the EXACT same rules for homosexuals and heterosexuals- respect the power of the bonding and procreative nature of sexual intercourse. Yes, you are free to love whomever you wish of any gender, but sex needs to be kept at it's intended purpose.
Now, you may not agree with this teaching, that's fine with me. I only wish to explain where we're coming from and that we have no special standards for homosexual couples that unmarried (and married) heterosexual couples aren't held to as well.
start the revolution and take bastards 10 miles out to sea
Teachers can compel kids to memorize and recite the Gettysburg Address, a Dr. King speech, or the lyrics to "Obama hmm hmm hmmm". What's wrong with the Pledge of Allegiance? It's not like the kids are going to be legally held to the oath. No one is going to slap handcuffs on them for burning a flag when they're at UC Berkeley because they broke a pledge they made in Mrs. Morrison's third grade class.
Can't marry your own daughter or sister, either.
And it's "whom."
"No one needs your recognition, your permission, or your tolerance."
Really? Then I guess you guys owe the Mormons an apology, because they've been getting a lot of flack for not recognizing, permitting, or tolerating what you've been shoving down everyone's throat for the past 40 or 50 years.
Oh great and powerful Joey, thank you for coming here to teach the conservatives. I am humbled by your very use of Caps Lock. Yes, I have been waging a "culture war" and your side hasn't. How blind I was. But my eyes are now open. I only hope that one day I am worthy to wipe the progressive spittle from your wise lips.
I am, your servant.
You know, I hate Sharia law, but it's nice to see that Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists can agree on *something*. I'm not the one who believes in inferior and superior people, Yahweh has that on lockdown. And by the way, I had to learn intelligent design in high school biology. I didn't learn evolution…you know, SCIENCE, until I was in college, where they don't treat you like you're an idiot. Anyone who makes comments conflating eugenics with evolution (correlation is not causation) obviously doesn't understand evolution or eugenics, and judging by your comments, I get the feeling you don't understand a lot.
Funny, isn't it, that a person becomes a "progressive thinker" in about the 5th grade. Think of all the money liberals have wasted on those college degrees they're always bludgeoning people with.
"Most grade school kids are of an age where they don't even understand the pledge or give any consideration to what it means."
But: "This kid has a point, and it's a good one – he's brought up issues of racism, sexism, religious discrimination, and, to his eyes, the biggie – the right of two consenting adults to stand before their loved ones and their higher power and declare faithfulness and love for each other."
What kind of kid doesn't understand the Pledge, but can grasp the above litany of never defeated leftist bogeyman (sorry, bogeyperson)? This makes absolutely no sense.
This reminds me of when I was in High School in 1990. One day someone decided to have a contest to see who knew the last line of the pledge of allegiance. I answered "and Justice for All" to which I was told that I was wrong. According to my teacher she had determined the last line was really " You may now be seated". In her mind I guess the first line was "please stand".
The prize was for a correct answer was some free pizza. I demanded that I also should get some since I was right and they were rewarding ignorance.
Yep, and they deserve the flack. They don't need our recognition, permission, or tolerance either. That's how it works in a free society. The difference is that the anti-gay marriage groups act like *their* rights are being trampled on simply because the state recognizes a right for others that they don't agree with.
Spare me the tortured heterosexual bull. I grew up in an evangelical family, where I was reminded daily that my soul is destined for eternal damnation. I grew up in a school system where I was called a faggot in front of teachers who responded "don't act like a faggot". I grew up in a town where any dissent, any worldview that isn't Christian fundamentalism, gets you taunted or beat up, COERCED. This country is against coercion, and no gay person has ever coerced you into being tolerant of gays. You don't know jack about oppression, so don't act like the 95% of people who are heterosexual are somehow being oppressed just because someone's relationship is recognized by the state. I only shove things down gay people's throats.
In high school (1986), I refused to say the pledge of allegiance. Back then, I was bullied by the eliets of the school. I was threatened, assulted and debased in every way a fat teenager could. Jocks, rappers, rednecks, metal heads. Everybody was on my ass. And what did the princeipals do? NOTHING! Jocks were just sent on their way with not even a cross word from either their coaches or administration. So I took my own protest. I refused to say the pledge. I felt I recived no justice. So since the PoA didn't apply to me, I didn't have to say it.
And I payed a dear price. I remained silent, sitting at my desk, not disrupting. My parents were called, my mom smacked me on my face for not saying the pledge. My father grounded me. I was sent to in-school suspension. And the bullying got worse! Eventually, they relented and for the rest of my senior year, while I was continually writen up, I stuck to my guns.
AND I WOULD DO IT AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT!
Although, today I am a different man. I love this country, I honor the men who died to give me this freedom. And I will say the pledge at any time, for the love of my country.
But I agree with this kid. If he doesn't want to say the PoA, he shouldn't. That is the price of freedom. Not just to protect what we say, but also to protect us when we want to be silent. A condition of citenznship shouldn't be reciting a pledge.
So, good luck, young man. You'll pay a heavy price too. And in about 10 to 15 years (took me 14 years), you'll relize that you were a horse's a$$ for making such a stand. That's called growing up.
Stay strong.
Welcome to the team.
Actually, the kid's argument for his courageous, selfless act of getting out of class and becoming a TV celebrity and hero to liberal bloggers was:
1. "Gays and lesbians can't marry". His premise was false. Gays and lesbians can marry. They just can't marry members of the same gender. Neither can straights. So it's not an issue of equal rights. Gay COUPLES don't have the same rights as STRAIGHT couples, but the Bill of Rights only guarantees individual rights, not couples rights – something he'd know if his teachers and his parents weren't purposely keeping him dumb.
2. "There's still a lot of racism and sexism in the world" – Yep. Most of it is in Africa and the Middle East. But the pledge is to our "Republic for Which it Stands". While there are bound to be racists and sexists in a population of 307 million, institutionalized racism and sexism is prohibited by law. So once again, the kid is spouting cliches without thinking.
He'll make a great Democrat congressman one day.
No, this kid understands the concept of "cosmic justice".
Poor heterosexual 95% of the population. You guys sure have it rough what with all us gay folks keeping you down. Why, we have the audacity to talk about our loved ones just like you do, we probably don't even have the common courtesy to pretend we're straight! There's even one of us on the tv! It's like apartheid all over again, what with us making you get gay married and all. I sure am glad that I'm homosexual, or I might have to face angry glances and people questioning my humanity and beatings by roving gangs of heterophobic men.
You do know that Republicans just won gubernatorial elections in New Jersey and Virginia, don't you?
What values do you think should the required daily patriotic exercises in public schools inculcate in American students?
Excellent and respectful question. To be honest, I don't want any government entity to inculcate any American student. I would prefer they concentrate on reading, writing and arithmetic and leave raising of children to the parents. I believe the reason there are so many dysfunctional families is directly responsible because of government intervention.
Do you not agree that school districts are entitled to (and should) direct their employees to lead the Pledge as a requirement of their employment?
For that I would defer to the local tax payers supporting the schools. It's their money, if they want it, majority rule.
Again a very nice post Adam. The Red Skelton pledge is something that I’ve seen most of my life, amazing.
There is a difference between wanting to say it and being forced to say it.
That's my point.
I have no problem with children being taught what to say, but if some one says 'I don't want to' what right do we have to say you will do it any way?
That's not what America is about. Conformity is easy. It's freedom that's hard.
Jesus Christ never said that loving each other was the only thing that mattered. Of course it's important, but it's not the only thing that is. He also said that it was more important to love and serve God than it was to love and serve one another, that if we loved Him, we would keep His commandments (yes, including the ones outlined in the OT), and that we should strive to be perfect according to His dictates, not our own. He taught that we should take care of one another and love each other, but not at the expense of our worshipping the Lord and obeying His will, rather than our own.
There is a difference between the Jewsish LAW (where the whole shellfish/indentured servitude for children aspects come in, the law that Christ declared was no longer necessary) and Jewish DOCTRINE, which remained the same. The law was meant to prepare the people for the Savior, and once He came, following those practices was no longer necessary. But the teachings still stand, those never changed. The commandments are still commandments, not suggestions or guidelines.
Republicans lost all five special congressional elections. And considering the campaign Corzine ran, not to mention his administration, New Jersey is pretty unsurprising.
The Tea Party movement is beginning to look like your typical WTO protest: lots of different people with lots of different agendas angry about a lot of different things; too many Hitler posters, too many Stalin posters; no nuance, no reasoning, no principles. Republicans would have a real movement behind them if they stopped demonizing people and got back to their roots: balanced budget, lower the deficit, fewer taxes, strong money, less regulation, no corporate welfare, smaller government. The social issues only matter because old people vote. In twenty years, social conservatism will be moot when conservative voters realize that the government isn't a tool for social engineering but a guarantor of rights.
Well said! That's it, in a nutshell!
"If the minority, and a small one too, is suffered to dictate to the majority, after measures have undergone the most solemn discussions by the representatives of the people, and their will through this medium is enacted into a law, there can be no security for life, liberty, or property; nor, if the laws are not to govern, can any man know how to conduct himself in safety."
GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to Major-General Daniel Morgan
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awesome reply, dude.
Thanks Adam! We plan on homeschooling when we have our kids, and here's yet another incident that supports that decision (as if the NEA pimping Alinsky wasn't enough).
"Teach the children quietly for someday sons and daughters will rise up and fight while we stood still…"
(cont.)
This fight over gay "marriage" is proving Washington right. In Washington DC, you have a well-connected minority of mostly White Democrats of the homosexual lifestyle prevent residents like me from voting on marriage:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?i...
The irony is that these are the SAME Democrats who warn Black people of those "evil Republicans" trying to steal their voting rights.
Up in Maine, homosexual activists are hurling hate speech and even death threats at Maine residents simply because they voted for traditional marriage:
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/11/05/left-wing-th...
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/11/10/climate-of-h...
Such hypocrisy by homosexual activists has caused many Americans to reject the PC nonsense and fight for their liberty.
This kid is lucky he lives in the United States of America where he is able to refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. If this little nitwit lived in a communist country he would not have this choice. The liberty, justice and freedom we have in this country makes that possible. I wonder what he thinks of Venezuela, gays sure have the rights there, NOT. Why does this kid think it's right to change the sanctity and meaning of marriage? What about the rights of those that believe marriage is between a man and a woman? I have no problem with civil unions. What about women's rights in muslim countries? They have no rights. I bet this kid would have no problem singing songs in honor of barack obama. Why don't our public schools teach the greatness that is the United States? Our freedom is precious and it's under attack from within our own country. How sad that this kid does not know and respect the fact that he lives in the greatest country on earth, for now……..
I don't suppose you've ever heard "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" before. There's never been any expectations on my part that anybody (or even this country) would ever thank me for 32 years of service in the Army, yet so many people do. When I hear it, I always feel a bit embarrassed – I never really thought of it that way. I don't and have never expected thanks. I did it because it was the right thing to do, and because I didn't see many others willing to do it when it needed to be done. Do I really expect anything in return? Only to be able to live my life the way I see fit, and it looks like those in control now wish to deprive me of that. This would include (as far as the education system goes) teaching my children to respect their fellow citizens and this country in accordance with the Constitution and the law, instead of indoctrinating them to serve and keep in position those (or the party) currently in power.
Times have changed! When we emigrated to Boston when I was a little girl, my teacher was flabbergasted that I didn't know the Pledge despite my extremely thick English accent (go fig). I learned it very quickly, though, & it soon became a fond ritual. Later, like a lot of teenage immigrants, I went through a phase where I didn't think it applied to me, & I stood respectfully, but didn't recite it. I was not eligible to be a citizen at the time, so it didn't make sense to me. I grew out of that phase, too.
I hope this kid's analytical skills grow before he tries for law school, because his interpretation of the Pledge is a smidge off. "And to the Republic for which it STANDS…with liberty & justice for all" does not imply that America is a perfect bastion of equality right now. Sheesh, some folks couldn't even vote yet when the Pledge was written. But it does STAND for an ideal of liberty & justice for all toward which America keeps moving ever forward. Just keep working at it, kid. Don't give up on your country; it's the best one ya got for liberty & justice!
Also? "Racism & sexism in the world" hardly can be blamed on America. In law school, the kid will need to learn to specify, or someone's gonna shout "Objection!" more emphatically than you have.
What values should be inculcated? Well, when I was in school, there was a citizenship grade. If you were a loud mouth who disrespected teachers & other students, that grade dropped, & it affected ones overall GPA. Do they not have this now? I think if kids' grades were affected by their lousy behaviour, they might grow up to be better citizens (or resident aliens, as the case may be), & we'd hope, there'd be less jerks.
There's a fine line between education and indoctrination. Sadly, all I've been hearing are bad examples of teachers not teaching but indoctrinating. "He is a reall American" in your mind and feelings because he was saying what you believe. Children, particularly the youngest ones are in schools to learn first, then as they get older they can then make value judgments based on what they learn in school, out of school and in the home. Fifth grade? Eleven years old? I daresay he doesn't have enough life experience to use value judgments to make that statement.
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